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Hammerstein posted:One Slavic nation fighting another Slavic nation is racist how? Russians are contemptuous of Ukrainians, and consider them dumb peasants that are getting tricked by evil Austria-Hungary/Lenin/America into thinking they're a real people rather than just poorly educated Russians that don't know how to speak "human" and follows the orders of their betters in Moscow like they ought to. This is pretty much *the* central point of this conflict. And the quote is racist in a way that directly relates to that form of Russian racism --- it thinks Ukrainians aren't the ones deciding to fight on, that there are being pushed by big bad evil Westerners. Chomsky's PoV is inherently racist in a very related way, since it's always about America for him.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:08
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Next time you post NMS stuff without spoiler tags that'll be a paddlin'
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Apr 17, 2022 20:09
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Valtonen posted:You do realize that South korea was a military dictatorship to 1990s right? Hmm. Sounds like Finland was in a better position then. Hammerstein posted:I never heard anyone refer to the Balkans as "orientalist" and I live in the city that's considered the gateway to SE Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nesting_Orientalisms
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Apr 17, 2022 20:10
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Risky Bisquick posted:Sorry not sorry for breaking up pedantic derails How is this accounts accuracy shaping up to be, by the way? I’m not implying anything particular about his specific tweet - just curious as they seem to have gone viral just very recently. ronya posted:"England is prepared to fight Germany to the last Frenchman" was popularized as a barb during the occupation of France by pro-collaboration French and German occupation authorities, but I suspect Chomsky was intending to paraphrase the (perhaps more famous) later paraphrase by the Egyptian foreign minister (and later UN Secretary General) Boutros-Ghali on the Algerian attitude toward Egyptian lives in confronting Israel 
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Apr 17, 2022 20:13
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Fritz the Horse posted:Next time you post NMS stuff without spoiler tags that'll be a paddlin' It was the massive bulge, wasn't it
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Apr 17, 2022 20:15
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https://twitter.com/samramani2/status/1515763679454810117 Huh, 800 troops in Azovstal?
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Apr 17, 2022 20:20
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cinci zoo sniper posted:https://twitter.com/samramani2/status/1515763679454810117 I'm guessing this is based on nothing but the report that 800 Azov fighters were in the city.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:22
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Hammerstein posted:One Slavic nation fighting another Slavic nation is racist how? Wow. Where to start. Would you also say a war between two Levantine nations couldn't be racist? A war between two Western European nations? Hammerstein posted:Furthermore, the "last Ukrainian" quote was coined by Chas Freeman, a US career diplomat and Chomsky requoted it. And in the context of the interview Freeman did on March 24 it's quite appropriate and worth a read, instead of accusing Chomsky of racism. Except Freeman has obviously picked up the expression from Russian propaganda. Freeman used it in March, while it was in circulation in Russia probably since 2014, first as a joke (and as a reference to the one about the Germans and the French), then as a snappy propaganda soundbite. Here's a KP opinion piece from that time https://www.kp.ru/daily/26243.3/3124522/ Here's Patrushev using it as a recognisable phrase not too long before the war https://eadaily.com/ru/news/2022/01/30/patrushev-ssha-nastoychivo-tolkayut-ukrainu-k-voyne-do-poslednego-ukrainca And here's Putin repeating it yet again this week https://tvzvezda.ru/news/20224121634-IqrZk.html Paladinus fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 20:22
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FishBulbia posted:I'm guessing this is based on nothing but the report that 800 Azov fighters were in the city. I agree with you - at the very least I’m coming short on alternative explanations to someone just taking the statutory size of the battalion. If this is based on fresh information from Kyiv channels, it would’ve included 36th marines, and I’m not seeing any alternative sources for that figure either. Edit: https://twitter.com/kevinrothrock/status/1515767590416756740 By the way, for fellow Latvians - Novaya Gazeta reboot is based in Riga, and they’re planning to run a print newspaper in Latvian and Russian. They’ll also be exporting the Russian edition abroad.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:29
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cinci zoo sniper posted:How is this accounts accuracy shaping up to be, by the way? I’m not implying anything particular about his specific tweet - just curious as they seem to have gone viral just very recently. Fairly ok. They are on the ground as part of some unit, usually near the front. They seem to do a lot of night ops, and have pretty decent opsec. Most things can be cross collaborated between the different social platforms and units in the region. There’s a couple units I’m following, some have accounts who stopped posting altogether I think the most famous unit on socials is the Belorussians with mustache hero. Their telegram is pretty good, I hope they come back alive
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Apr 17, 2022 20:31
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cinci zoo sniper posted:How is this accounts accuracy shaping up to be, by the way? I’m not implying anything particular about his specific tweet - just curious as they seem to have gone viral just very recently. My impression is, similar to Nexta--forwards on Ukrainian-side news and rumors. Often at least somewhat accurate, but little quality control.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:31
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 denazification successful, now azov has obtained mythical status
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Apr 17, 2022 20:33
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Sir John Falstaff posted:My impression is, similar to Nexta--forwards on Ukrainian-side news and rumors. Often at least somewhat accurate, but little quality control. My issue with Nexta is unlike the Kyiv independent which is biased and stuff, Nexta has manipulated a few videos (mainly redating) to make stuff more viral. Hard to do that by accident.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:36
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 Gnarly video of Ukrainian helicopter attacking Russian units in the beginning of the war. Nothing gory. https://twitter.com/Blue_Sauron/status/1515760352029515793
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Apr 17, 2022 20:51
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Goon who replied to you describing it as racism is actually Ukrainian, hth. Considering how few young men (according to polls) in my country, or other Western countries, would be willing to fight in a war, the courage and patriotism of the defenders of Ukraine came as a surprise. And not just to me, but to political commentators and historians all across the media landscape. And that has nothing to do with "orientalism" but it's a simple reflection of: "If I would not want to fight for my county and it's corrupt elites, then why would they fight for their country and it's even more corrupt elites". Freeman's statement about "Fighting to the last Urkrainian" was never aimed at Ukraine's will to fight, that is your personal interpretation and you should read the full interview. He used the term as criticism of the neocon's objective of regime change in Russia at the expense of the people of Ukraine. The whole theme of the last few hundred pages seems that every time someone disagrees, it must be bigotry, racism or Putin-love. But not every comment needs to be taken in the worst possible bad faith context, to immediately come down upon and admonish with loaded words. I get the impression that posts just exist to get one over the previous poster, ideally in 280 letters to stay in Twitters micro-attention span, instead of maybe looking up the context, the article, or not automatically assuming evil intentions. Scholars who dedicated their life and work to peace and social justice are now discarded as crazy old dotards with a Russian agenda and any statement is twisted in ways to only fit the own narrative. I think I'm out of this thread, so you can pat yourself on the shoulder for it. Freeman made a good point when he said: quote:And I’d add, I have heard, I know people who have been attempting to be objective about this, and they’re immediately accused of being Russian agents. Or let us just say, the price of speaking on this subject is to join the pom-pom girls in a frenzy of support for our position, and if you’re not part of the chorus, you’re not allowed to say anything, and you can’t sing.
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Apr 17, 2022 20:53
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Coquito Ergo Sum posted:Actually Sweden's neutrality was entirely attributable to the greatest weapon man has ever known: S Tank best tank.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:00
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cinci zoo sniper posted:For someone who is supposedly indifferent about the Mexico-China hypothetical, you sure sound angry that I have dared to characterise it as an Americentric argument most frequently brought up by Americans. I have no skin in stupid takes brought up by anyone let alone my own countryman. Deflect all you want but its the truth, you have some deeply rooted disdain for all Americans for some previously aggrieved sleight, propagation of which only breeds the very resentment that assailed you to begin with. I've said my peace, you can keep trying to act like I'm white knighting some poo poo post, but your words ring hollow. I feel sorry for you to have so much hate in your heart against people you have never met. cinci zoo sniper posted:What would us, stupid Eastern European savages, do without your piercing American insight.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:01
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Oh look, more German military gear is actually arriving, VTOL recon drones. With laser range finding, might be really useful for artillery coordination. https://twitter.com/osinttechnical/status/1515773958125195279
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Apr 17, 2022 21:01
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The china-mexico hypothetical is soo bad for soo many reasons but thats my hot american take on these hot american forums
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Apr 17, 2022 21:07
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PITT posted:I have no skin in stupid takes brought up by anyone let alone my own countryman. Deflect all you want but its the truth, you have some deeply rooted disdain for all Americans for some previously aggrieved sleight, propagation of which only breeds the very resentment that assailed you to begin with. Clearly, as a person from a deeply neoliberal country that remains sovereign exclusively due to American benevolence, with a decadent American job off the back of my American-sponsored education, I must hate Americans for being the menace upon my life. Never would’ve thought that I shall be defeated by facts and logic in my own thread, but here I am, I guess.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:12
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FishBulbia posted:Wow, being in between a super power conflict is a bad place to be. Yeah, we agree. It is lovely. It is unstable. Not in any way good. What does it have to do with Ukraine today? Why would you keep bringing it up as an option? Also, stop moving the goalposts.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:12
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I can't speak for others, but I read the Chomsky interview, and I read the sources he referenced, and he does not come off well. I certainly was not trying to Twitter dunk anyone. If anything, I felt the context kinda made it worse. Like....The September memerandum specifically mentions a willingness to negotiate about the Donbass, for example - and Zelenskyy's statement at the press conference specifically refers to points of negotiation such as prisoners Russia is holding. Yet Chomsky characterizes it as a refusal to negotiate, presumably because the memerandum makes a point of saying the US refuses to ever recognize Crimea is legitimately Russian - but Chomsky is certainly experienced enough to know that's irrelevant, since the Donbass is the actual point of contention. So I just don't even know where he's coming from there.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:14
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Morrow posted:Russia continues to bombard Kharkiv, so pushing their artillery back is very beneficial. That's not the reason for this particular offensive. Remember how the Russians are pushing past Izium to encircle the JFO, any day now? There is a lot of Russian troops in or near Izium. All their supplies are delivered to them through Kupiansk. There is currently an Ukrainian push east towards Kupianks from Kharkiv, and another north towards Kupiansk from the JFO on the eastern side of Oskol. Over the past week, they have both made a lot more progress towards their objective than the Russians have. If I was the Russian general responsible for the troops around there, I would be sweating pretty much now. Especially since withdrawing means forfeiting any chance whatsoever of a meaningful victory before May 9th.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:17
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I mean it's telling that nobody serious in the academic world is sharing that Chomsky interview and saying 'yes this analysis adds lots to the conversation'. The reactions are universally a mix of horror and contempt for the flaws in the logic and misrepresentations of evidence. e: ^^ yeah my armchair interpretation of the push East from Kharkiv is also that it's about threatening the flank of that Norther pincer.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:19
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bad_fmr posted:Yeah, we agree. It is lovely. It is unstable. Not in any way good. Nothing? I just said Nordic neutrality worked better than the alternative.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:19
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Clearly, as a person from a deeply neoliberal country that remains sovereign exclusively due to American benevolence, with a decadent American job off the back of my American-sponsored education, I must hate Americans for being the menace upon my life. Never would’ve thought that I shall be defeated by facts and logic in my own thread, but here I am, I guess. so much effort to cover up your jealousy that america can produce gross food on a level eastern europeans can only dream about
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Apr 17, 2022 21:21
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Russia has a population about the size of France and Germany combined, and an economy about half the size of France. I'm no expert but its military doesn't seem to be that great, tell me if I'm wrong. It's not a superpower except for having nukes and I don't see why anyone thinks it's helpful to indulge Putin's fantasy that it is, unless we really think he's going to start a nuclear war which wipes out humanity otherwise. I guess we can't discount that. That doesn't mean I think a conventional war with Russia wouldn't be awful for everyone, but so would war with France or a dozen other countries. We don't indulge in little fantasies about how we have to accept those countries have a "sphere of influence" where neighbours aren't allowed to have their own foreign policies, or compare them to "hurricanes" that we have to respect and accommodate. (France even has nuclear weapons) The way some people venerate Russia is really odd to me, especially when it's leftists talking about what's basically a fascist state (the Russian government seems to believe Russia has a god-given right to dominate its neighbours and direct the course of history, and is only held back by enemies within and foreign conspiracies, which seems to me to be a form of fascism).
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Apr 17, 2022 21:23
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:so much effort to cover up your jealousy that america can produce gross food on a level eastern europeans can only dream about Taco Bell is actually pretty good, if you're drinking.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:26
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Paxman posted:Russia has a population about the size of France and Germany combined, and an economy about half the size of France. I'm no expert but its military doesn't seem to be that great, tell me if I'm wrong. Russia is endowed with a stupid amount of resource wealth due to its massive size. This means it can use the minerals and petroleum it produces as leverage. It's a little bit like if a revachevist power like Turkey was given the petro-political sway of OPEC. Russia is like postmodern fascism. Fury has been replaced by apathy and there is no actual ideological framework, despite what some people claim about Dugin. FishBulbia fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 21:28
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Tuna-Fish posted:Especially since withdrawing means forfeiting any chance whatsoever of a meaningful victory before May 9th.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:31
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Russia is apperently gonna drop 3000kg bombs on Azovstal any minute now...
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Apr 17, 2022 21:32
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Paxman posted:Russia has a population about the size of France and Germany combined, and an economy about half the size of France. I'm no expert but its military doesn't seem to be that great, tell me if I'm wrong. I mean, up until this war most analysis had Russia as the second most powerful military in the world behind the US and ahead of China. It's now, obviously, shown to be a paper tiger but that's the issue with a corrupt autocratic government, it's very hard to tell just how effective everything is because it's always possible that the whole thing is just built on lies and has been hollowed out in the name of internal pillaging. It seems some analysts just can't seem to cope with new information fast enough and have some catching up to do in the way this will all affect international politics. Russia's military, at this point, is likely to be considered way further down the list closer to Germany or Australia once this is done. They will still be considered powerful, if only due to their nukes, but it's going to be a decade plus before their standard army will be able to really claim anything beyond a regional power, at this rate.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:35
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:I can't speak for others, but I read the Chomsky interview, and I read the sources he referenced, and he does not come off well. I certainly was not trying to Twitter dunk anyone. If anything, I felt the context kinda made it worse. Like....The September memerandum specifically mentions a willingness to negotiate about the Donbass, for example - and Zelenskyy's statement at the press conference specifically refers to points of negotiation such as prisoners Russia is holding. Yet Chomsky characterizes it as a refusal to negotiate, presumably because the memerandum makes a point of saying the US refuses to ever recognize Crimea is legitimately Russian - but Chomsky is certainly experienced enough to know that's irrelevant, since the Donbass is the actual point of contention. So I just don't even know where he's coming from there. Yeah, the interview has this thing where he kind of implies the US did something in particular to bring the invasion about, but never really says what. Every attempt at negotiating before the war is ignored, everything Russia actually said is ignored, the only thing mentioned are the old 90s standbies about NATO expansion.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:36
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I really don't think chomsky deserves the amount of discussion he's been generating in this thread. He's shown up on the last twelve pages or so now. The man has not been relevant in years yet he's winding you all up
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Apr 17, 2022 21:37
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FishBulbia posted:Russia is endowed with a stupid amount of resource wealth due to its massive size. This means it can use the minerals and petroleum it produces as leverage. It's a little bit like if a revachevist power like Turkey was given the petro-political sway of OPEC. There is always an ideological framework. Ideology attaches itself to everything. Even your statement that there is “no ideological framework” is a statement loaded with ideology and ideological implications. That is the great trick of the “no meta narrative” postmodernist position… it pretends it isn’t ideological; and it makes the assertion that there is no truth like it is Truth with a capital T.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:38
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:I can't speak for others, but I read the Chomsky interview, and I read the sources he referenced, and he does not come off well. I certainly was not trying to Twitter dunk anyone. If anything, I felt the context kinda made it worse. Like....The September memerandum specifically mentions a willingness to negotiate about the Donbass, for example - and Zelenskyy's statement at the press conference specifically refers to points of negotiation such as prisoners Russia is holding. Yet Chomsky characterizes it as a refusal to negotiate, presumably because the memerandum makes a point of saying the US refuses to ever recognize Crimea is legitimately Russian - but Chomsky is certainly experienced enough to know that's irrelevant, since the Donbass is the actual point of contention. So I just don't even know where he's coming from there.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:45
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Valtonen posted:This is one hell of a red-hot take, and requires absolutely bonkers interpretation of ”fate worse than Vietnam.” In a small way I agree with the disruptive poster there, sure finlandization was a crock of poo poo, but I don't believe small nations next to big nations often have true independence in choosing their paths. Going at it alone leads to getting bullied or caught in crossfires, but alliances can also limit sovereignty, plenty of examples in Europe. I've always thought of Cuba when the most hot-headed critics of finlandization demanded Finland to always act contrary to what USSR would want, as if any other option would mean the country was not truly independent. E: missing words d64 fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 21:51
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https://mobile.twitter.com/J_Jaraczewski/status/1515755312917135362 (Dunno if it's actually real but it's not important and funny)
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Apr 17, 2022 21:55
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I've read a lot of Chomsky, I feel he's right about a tremendous number of things. This is certainly not one of them. I feel like it's a bit hypocritical to both encourage resistance against oppression, the ills of capitalism, authoritarianism, etc. But then turn around and say "Gee Ukraine really should just settle because war is bad and they'll probably lose." ...Russia started this war. This is a self-defense action. I don't think you can pretend it's anything else when Putin is literally on tv saying explicitly that Ukraine doesn't have a right to exist. You look at things like Chechnya where Russia installs basically mob bosses at the head of the country, and that's Ukraine's explicit fate if they just surrendered. They're standing up for continued self-determination and that's a good thing and should be encouraged.
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Apr 17, 2022 21:56
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It’s not that there isn’t an ideological framework, it is that the vocabulary we try to use to describe it is painfully dated, and perhaps the most obvious example is how both the far left and the far right seem to be supporting Russia in this issue. Modern autocracy doesn’t resemble what we’ve seen before, so there’s no convenient shorthand to describe it.
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