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CzarChasm posted:The last few times I've got to red death I reach a stalemate (by freezing him and running away?) and then white death just came for me. What triggers that, because it sounds like some people don't get to white death and get stuck in a loop with red death? If you evolved the Lancet to Infinite Corridor, then it cuts enemies' HP in half every time it does a full loop around, which will reduce Death's max HP to almost nothing in just a couple of minutes regardless of how high his HP started out. If you have the Shroud and a bit of regen, then even a few Deaths won't be able to inflict enough damage to kill you. But if you failed to evolve the Lancet, then you won't be able to chew through Death's tens of millions of HP in any reasonable timeframe; regular weapons just don't do anywhere near enough damage. So you end up stuck in a stalemate, where you don't have the one tool that can reduce Death's HP to a manageable amount, but Death can't hit you fast enough to kill you (not even if you just stand there doing nothing). It's an inescapable situation where you're just waiting for enough Deaths to pile up that they can work their way through their defenses. Last time I got the Shroud but failed to evolve the Lancet, I gave up on hoping to kill Death and walked away from the keyboard at the 38 minute mark. When I came back, I'd finally died at a bit past 45 minutes.
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Jun 13, 2022 13:27
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You can just safely go to menu -> options -> quit and still get unlocks unless there's some other reason you want your run to keep going.
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Jun 13, 2022 13:44
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Vizuyos posted:If you evolved the Lancet to Infinite Corridor, then it cuts enemies' HP in half every time it does a full loop around, which will reduce Death's max HP to almost nothing in just a couple of minutes regardless of how high his HP started out. What's especially fun is getting Armor in the same run as Shroud. Shroud caps your incoming damage at 10, which applies before Armor's damage reduction. High enough armor can make the end-of-run Deaths literally do 0 damage.
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Jun 13, 2022 14:05
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serefin99 posted:What's especially fun is getting Armor in the same run as Shroud. Shroud caps your incoming damage at 10, which applies before Armor's damage reduction. High enough armor can make the end-of-run Deaths literally do 0 damage. And NO FUTURE is an insane weapon so you probably want to be doing that anyway! I don't know how but it always consistently tops my DPS charts, even ahead of Phieraggi. Only Infinite Corridor beats it because well yeah obviously.
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Jun 13, 2022 17:26
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Is there enough overlap to discuss "20 Minutes till dawn" in here or does it warrant its own thread? Because after slamming my head against a wall to get past the ~9 minute mark - by just not being able to scale the damage up sufficiently and getting swarmed repeatedly - it finally clicked and ...  It does a good job triggering the same "Come and get me. Oh, you can't? Muahahaha" pleasure center as VS. https://i.imgur.com/4FCF9vZ.mp4 Game's good, even (at this point) without permanent perks you could level. Edit: Oh, there's "Runes" you can purchase, never noticed,  .Not sure if it has the same longevity as VS, but at $3, it's pretty much a no brainer. Also, contrary to belief - some articles mention there is no heal except for getting extra "lives" -, you can actually heal.  My build healed me back to full in about 22 seconds. Fun.
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Jun 13, 2022 20:10
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mcbexx posted:Is there enough overlap to discuss "20 Minutes till dawn" in here or does it warrant its own thread? I'm still trying to acclimate to this, it feels like you have to be much more careful with your movement because I keep getting nudged by things that wouldn't have touched me in VS, maneuvering around enemies gets tight.
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Jun 13, 2022 20:53
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You definitely have to be more careful about deciding when to move and to shoot, and your hitbox is bigger than you think. I have not advanced far enough to get to any kind of circle of death mode yet. I can't tell, does that upgrade graphic mean that you choose this one then it will unlock these other two, and if you choose them both later then it unlocks an even better one? Or does picking both of the two later automatically upgrade you to the better one?
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Jun 13, 2022 20:57
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I'm kinda torn on 20 Minutes Till Dawn. On the one hand it is much more well designed and balanced than Vampire Survivors from what I've played. On the other hand it's nowhere near as fun. Maybe it's the lack of permanent upgrades but every weapon feels super weak and what I like about VS is being super ridiculously strong in a way I haven't even come close to managing in 20 Minutes Till Dawn.withak posted:I can't tell, does that upgrade graphic mean that you choose this one then it will unlock these other two, and if you choose them both later then it unlocks an even better one? Or does picking both of the two later automatically upgrade you to the better one? So look at it like this. ......A ..B.....C... ......D Once you get A, you can get B or C or both. Once you get B or C you can get D. You can get all four and you can get them in A, B, C, D or A, B, D, C or A, C, D, B, etc order.
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Jun 13, 2022 21:01
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TTBF posted:Maybe it's the lack of permanent upgrades but every weapon feels super weak and what I like about VS is being super ridiculously strong in a way I haven't even come close to managing in 20 Minutes Till Dawn. I've played through a few times with different weapons now and always feel super weak right up until the game suddenly gets broken over my knee and i'm basically unkillable, it's very satisfying when I manage to get to that point.
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Jun 13, 2022 21:05
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I've been having some fun with 20MTD, but the player character is just too fragile. I get what they're going for, but with the huge swarms of enemies that you have to dodge it's just too stressful to avoid ANY AND ALL contact, all the time. I keep trying to get some sort of good build going, but I feel like I always end up too scattershot. All the generic "faster reload/firing rate" stuff just feels boring to get, but it's super necessary if you want to survive. It feels like you have to work really hard to overcome the disadvantages you start with... and then the game just keeps pouring on more enemies with more and more health until you just die. I imagine they'll continue tweaking the balance, since the devs already patched it to add one extra HP to every character 
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Jun 13, 2022 21:14
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TTBF posted:Maybe it's the lack of permanent upgrades but every weapon feels super weak and what I like about VS is being super ridiculously strong in a way I haven't even come close to managing in 20 Minutes Till Dawn. As I wrote, there is a "Runes" menu item in the upper right corner of the character select screen. I also just noticed it today. There are plenty of permanent upgrades to sink your currency into. They are a talent tree though, you can only pick/equip one from each tier in the offensive/defensive columns. Some are quite substantive boosts and will definetly make things easier. The feeling of being overpowered does not exactly stem from the weapons, but from the synergies of status effects and the matching upgrades. For instance, one upgrade is "hit a frozen enemy with burn and it explodes for 40". If you also have a "if an enemy dies with a status effect, there is a chance it will jump to its neighbours" - and then it's just chain reaction after chain reaction (e.g. my clip above). You also need to make sure your upgrades benefit your weapon type. My submachinguns basically never need to reload - I got 99 ammo (from the "cursed" reward of the 2nd boss), every lightning strike has a chance to refill 3 rounds, standing still has a chance of not consuming ammo and every XP gem I pick up has a 10% chance to reload 1 ammo. Helloooo murdertown. Also, in game, hit Escape and check "Synergies", those are basically this game's evolutions, just not for weapons, but for your upgrades/upgrade combos. I found the "Spark" character and submachinguns the easiest combo to get over the hump. mcbexx fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 21:21
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20MTD does always feel like it's teetering on a knife edge... up until about 9 minutes remaining. If you've survived that long you can survive til the end, there are no new basic enemies past that point, only new bosses. Worst you have to worry about is getting clipped by a stray bullet from one of the eyes.
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Jun 13, 2022 21:23
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Curse makes the game easier.
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Jun 13, 2022 21:24
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mcbexx posted:As I wrote, there is a "Runes" menu item in the upper right corner of the character select screen. I also just noticed it today. There are plenty of permanent upgrades to sink your currency into. They are a talent tree though, you can only pick/equip one from each tier in the offensive/defensive columns. Thanks for this, I would not have found the Runes menu on my own. e: Yeah going SMG with Electro Mage and Pyro Mage is the way to go, and those passive upgrades really help. TTBF fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 21:43
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Also it took me way too long to figure out that to unlock characters & weapons you have to click on the price tag popup, not on the lock icon itself.
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Jun 13, 2022 21:48
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I like 20MTD, but the biggest flaw is that by the end you have like 80% of the available perks and the end game is pretty much always the same. That's the elemental build. It works best with a high RoF weapon. You can also lean into synergies with summons or emptying your clip, but it doesn't really matter. The different characters gain additional special upgrades that can be very powerful, but they also get pretty much lost in the elemental chaos and are overshadowed by it. I think VS's system has much more longevity due to the variety combined with the limited slots. You can't always get exactly what you want, so each run has a bit of uncertainty to it, and you have that dopamine hit when it all comes together. 20MTD will get more perks while it is in early access, so maybe it will get better down the line, but right now after winning 3 runs I feel like I've seen it all, while VS has managed to keep the community engaged with secrets, achievement hunting, hidden characters and obtuse mechanics.
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Jun 13, 2022 21:49
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mcbexx posted:As I wrote, there is a "Runes" menu item in the upper right corner of the character select screen. I also just noticed it today. There are plenty of permanent upgrades to sink your currency into. They are a talent tree though, you can only pick/equip one from each tier in the offensive/defensive columns. Wait WHAT Wow, I never would've noticed that. They really need to change that to say "upgrades" or something. This game is a lot more fun with some passive upgrades, turns out.
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Jun 13, 2022 21:59
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To be fair, VS wasn't as good when it first launched. It was great don't get me wrong, but it's really benefited from a lot of new content. 20 Minutes is still at that early stage, and personally I think it feels a lot better as a framework.
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Jun 13, 2022 22:00
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Can you get golden eggs with Missingno? I'd assume they wouldn't work.
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Jun 13, 2022 22:25
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20MTD is very Nova Drift to a perhaps eyebrow raising degree, but with enough updates to grant it further fleshed out character unto itself---Should Be Good Times. Already quite a leap between the Demo that came before the initial Alpha release.
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Jun 14, 2022 00:48
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Cowman posted:Can you get golden eggs with Missingno? I'd assume they wouldn't work. You can definitely get them. I don't have the patience to determine whether they're added after the stats are rolled, added to the maximum value of the roll, applied to both ends of the roll, or just ignored.
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Jun 14, 2022 01:36
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i appreciate that for $3 this is a game where you hit the thread to get back into it, take a 3 week break, come back, and have *no goddamn idea what the christ everyone is talking about*
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Jun 14, 2022 02:42
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Just discovered that for characters that start with an evolved weapon you cannot evolve a second version of that weapon despite the game allowing you to pick up a second one.
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Jun 14, 2022 05:19
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Yes, I love 20TD. The danger and difficulty draw me in. It's a different itch than VS but similar. VS didn't start as packed as it is now either and the end game was real samey for a long time.
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Jun 14, 2022 05:32
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Jelly posted:Just discovered that for characters that start with an evolved weapon you cannot evolve a second version of that weapon despite the game allowing you to pick up a second one. Yeah this is one of the few things that's ever disappointed me in this game lol, I hope it gets changed. You've got a character who starts the evolved whip and you've got a fusion that uses the evolved whip, why not let me make another evolved whip?
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Jun 14, 2022 05:37
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goferchan posted:Yeah this is one of the few things that's ever disappointed me in this game lol, I hope it gets changed. You've got a character who starts the evolved whip and you've got a fusion that uses the evolved whip, why not let me make another evolved whip? What would it do? Double the projectiles? Evolved wand and lvl 8 wand go nicely together when the empty tome is maxed out. The axes would probably be underwhelming, the evolved version is just so much better. Question: what does the Beginnings arcana do with non-projectile weapons? I think it explicitly lists garlic, but I didn't notice tripled ROF or damage. Same with the freeze lance.
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Jun 14, 2022 08:19
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It seems to just list the character's starting weapon for some reason. May be a hint at future changes, but probably just an implementation quirk of always giving +3 to slot 1 even if the limit is 1.
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Jun 14, 2022 08:58
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BrianRx posted:What would it do? Double the projectiles?
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Jun 14, 2022 09:45
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While we're plugging roguelike autobattlers (is that what we'll call them?) I just had a bunch of fun with the demo for boneraiser minions: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1944570/Boneraiser_Minions/ It's labeled as a demo but it's pretty much a full fledged game with 4 unlockable classes, metaprogression with 2 sizeable upgrade trees (one for making it easier, and one that ramps up the difficulty but also the rewards) and a grimoire of summons, spells and relics to fill out. I just beat the boss after 90 minutes of total playtime (one run taking about 10-15 minutes) and that's where I got the "thank you for playing the demo" screen, which basically says that the full version will have an endless mode, but you can just keep playing and continue to have fun and complete your upgrades. I liked this one even better than the 10 minutes to dawn demo, but overall I'm just glad that we're living in this wonderful coffee-break game renaissance.
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Jun 14, 2022 10:50
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goferchan posted:Yeah this is one of the few things that's ever disappointed me in this game lol, I hope it gets changed. You've got a character who starts the evolved whip and you've got a fusion that uses the evolved whip, why not let me make another evolved whip? You definitely can do that: 
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Jun 14, 2022 13:28
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20 Minutes is a very good foundation right now but the balance does seem to skew very heavily towards elemental builds, particularly due to the self reinforcing nature of lightning giving you ammo back and ice doing percentile damage on freeze. I was able to make a Lilith/Batgun pure summon run work eventually but it was contingent on getting the dragon and its buffs very early on and still having some good luck with later game upgrades. Good core ideas though and hopefully it gets a bit of the VS treatment during EA. If not, though, well, 3 bucks.
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Jun 14, 2022 14:03
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https://store.steampowered.com/app/2014740/Last_Monarch/ Also, the same pub behind Beautiful Survivors, which is also apparently somewhat refurbished for the Demo festivities---but this seems to be leaning into more advanced controls and range of events beyond just The Projectiling. Something about the screenshots gives off a weird Hydlide vibe, at least until you get down to the character key art on the Steam page that quickly affirms kinship of a sort of Beautiful Survivors, lol.
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Jun 14, 2022 14:03
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Tortolia posted:20 Minutes is a very good foundation right now but the balance does seem to skew very heavily towards elemental builds, particularly due to the self reinforcing nature of lightning giving you ammo back and ice doing percentile damage on freeze. I was able to make a Lilith/Batgun pure summon run work eventually but it was contingent on getting the dragon and its buffs very early on and still having some good luck with later game upgrades. I hope they get some QoL stuff sorted out, too. Making Runes more obvious would be a good start. I also noticed that when you level up you push back surrounding enemies, but not when you pick up a chest or cursed book. Enemies are already swarming bad when those things appear so I almost always take a hit after grabbing one. ExiledTinkerer posted:https://store.steampowered.com/app/2014740/Last_Monarch/ Also, the same pub behind Beautiful Survivors, which is also apparently somewhat refurbished for the Demo festivities---but this seems to be leaning into more advanced controls and range of events beyond just The Projectiling. It's got all three genders: femboy, furry, and goblin.
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Jun 14, 2022 14:37
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Oenis posted:I like 20MTD, but the biggest flaw is that by the end you have like 80% of the available perks and the end game is pretty much always the same. That's the elemental build. It works best with a high RoF weapon. You can also lean into synergies with summons or emptying your clip, but it doesn't really matter. The different characters gain additional special upgrades that can be very powerful, but they also get pretty much lost in the elemental chaos and are overshadowed by it. HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:To be fair, VS wasn't as good when it first launched. It was great don't get me wrong, but it's really benefited from a lot of new content. 20 Minutes is still at that early stage, and personally I think it feels a lot better as a framework.
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Jun 14, 2022 16:18
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It's pretty funny, Steam NextFest has a bunch of Vampire Survivor-likes of, uh, varying presentation and quality. Brotato, Boneraiser Minions, Bounty of One, and, I guess, Beautiful Mystic Survivors.
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Jun 14, 2022 16:29
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RoboCicero posted:It's pretty funny, Steam NextFest has a bunch of Vampire Survivor-likes of, uh, varying presentation and quality. Brotato, Boneraiser Minions, Bounty of One, and, I guess, Beautiful Mystic Survivors. Yeah I really like the demo for Boneraiser Minions. It's got a neat gimmick where combat is mostly summon-based, you're a necromancer and your "XP" is the bones of your fallen enemies which you use to raise your own army to fight for you. edit: another twist I think is really neat is that, like in VS, you can spend your metacurrency on "upgrades" that make the game more difficult while gaining you more resources, but in this game there's an entire upgrade tree devoted to it with a variety of modifiers that make things harder but also sometimes can be to your advantage. Like you can upgrade the standard low-level peasant enemy to make them occasionally spawn carrying bombs that they drop on death. These explosions hurt you but they also hurt other enemies and you can get some delightful chain reactions going if you manage to clump up a bunch of bomb-carriers all at once. goferchan fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Jun 14, 2022 |
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Jun 14, 2022 17:36
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ExiledTinkerer posted:20MTD is very Nova Drift to a perhaps eyebrow raising degree, but with enough updates to grant it further fleshed out character unto itself---Should Be Good Times. 
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Jun 14, 2022 17:52
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Oenis posted:I like 20MTD, but the biggest flaw is that by the end you have like 80% of the available perks and the end game is pretty much always the same. That's the elemental build. It works best with a high RoF weapon. You can also lean into synergies with summons or emptying your clip, but it doesn't really matter. The different characters gain additional special upgrades that can be very powerful, but they also get pretty much lost in the elemental chaos and are overshadowed by it. I've had success with a summon build but even then you might as well rapid fire some ice if you can. It really could use some more gun-based powerups, I think there's basically the one tree that gives you bonus damage. But I'm worried if they just add more passives it'll clutter up the upgrade pool and it'll be even harder to find the ones you want. I just went an entire game and only managed to get the ice shatter power in literally the last 10 seconds. Also the runes are good but the fact that you can only have one from each tier active at a time is a little frustrating because it encourages you to double down on a playstyle, imo. If you take the bonuses based on elemental damage and don't go elemental, it's like you just spent thousands of points for nothing at all. Especially when it takes multiple clears to max out one of the top tier perks.
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Jun 14, 2022 18:52
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Has anyone had luck with a passive build (i.e., one that doesn't require shooting)? It seems like it could work with the summons, glare, and fire and frost ammo (since they trigger on hit, not firing), but it falls apart when the elites show up. I haven't tried it with the upgraded dragon, but I feel like that's cheating. I like that all of the characters are broken in their own ways. The one that fires all of their ammo in a circle is a lot of fun once projectile amount and elemental damage cross a certain threshold. Also cool that you can move while using it so you can hoover up all the experience that collects on the edge of the screen without letting up.
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Jun 14, 2022 20:59
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BrianRx posted:Has anyone had luck with a passive build (i.e., one that doesn't require shooting)? It seems like it could work with the summons, glare, and fire and frost ammo (since they trigger on hit, not firing), but it falls apart when the elites show up. I haven't tried it with the upgraded dragon, but I feel like that's cheating. Hina + Grenade Launcher + Max Upgrade Lens. If you stand on the shadow while it's swinging, it gets the lens buffs -- once you've finished stacking all of the different +damage +speed buffs and gotten some other bullet damage support, you can have a giant aoe deathzone buzzsawing for 1.5k per. Ghost and Dragon help for getting rid of bullet enemies, mainly, but daggers are mostly useful for early game maneuvering and the +40% damage upgrade. It's not as braindead easy as a frostbite/shatter/assassinate shotgun with miniclip build, but it only took a try or two on D15. 
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Jun 14, 2022 21:34
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