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Mikey Purp posted:I find it so weird how there are literally 100 different options that all boil down to <$500 bedslinger ender clones with slight tweaks, and then basically nothing mass market until you get into the realm of the Prusa XL. I feel like there should be a It Just Works option with a larger print volume at the $1000 price point, but there just isn't. I think the Bambu lab X1 printer could hit that 1000$ price point, but it's one of those very-recently kickstarted things where it's just unavailable outside of a handful of youtube reviewers who tried it, and little info on how it is over time. Or how 'it just works' it is in the hands of the average person as opposed to the QC-ed and tuned to hell units they might be sending out to big reviewers. From the initial reviews it seemed really neat, and if it is as good once it's actually on the market, I might consider getting one as an upgrade/my next machine next year. It is pretty neat that they've gotten to the point where they're slapping in LIDAR into the units for calibration and stuff like noticing that the print has loosened. That said, it does advertise printing in multiple colours, but is hilariously inefficient in doing so. (Though it's a bit unfair to compare it to the Prusa XL, since the XL with 2 heads is like 2.5x the cost.)
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Aug 4, 2022 16:37
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Also people love arguing about brands. Practically human condition
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Aug 4, 2022 18:29
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Sure, I agree with that. It remains silly to poo poo on Creality while shilling for "Fokoos" and "Kingroon", all I'm sayin.
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Aug 4, 2022 18:42
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Mikey Purp posted:I just ordered an Ender 3 S1 Plus and am kind of having buyer's remorse. I've heard a lot about QA issues and even if I win the QA lottery and it's a great printer out of the box, I i feel like the price point may be a bit much ($550) for what it is.
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Aug 4, 2022 18:46
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Yeah, that Mini Delta is where things went downhill. Nobody liked the acrylic frames. Acrylic is what laser cutters could cut reliably, and was available at the hardware store. And that was from the era of "3dp should make 3d printers." When we, as a whole, gave up the whole darwin project, 3d printing became much better. That, and giving up on huge lengths of threaded rod. Mikey Purp posted:I find it so weird how there are literally 100 different options that all boil down to <$500 bedslinger ender clones with slight tweaks, and then basically nothing mass market until you get into the realm of the Prusa XL. I feel like there should be a It Just Works option with a larger print volume at the $1000 price point, but there just isn't. Larger print volumes aren't necessarily better. "often aren't". What you're poking at as "being better", probally isn't. Also, the Prusa XL isn't even on the market yet. The 100 different options are because there's room to sell the same thing as the next guy, make some money, and do it well enough people wont' complain. The leading edge of the market isn't with the printers, it's with software. That's being driven almost entirely by Klipper, and Prusa. The better you want, is a sensor or two more, on what we have now. 3d printers aren't "printers". They're CNC machines. At least at our level. w00tmonger posted:I think the issue is the big gulf between people just wanting a 3d printer and professionals. And frankly a large format printer is already pretty niche. This gets back to "3d printers aren't.. printers". A printer takes in a uniform worksheet, lays down one layer with materials that are HIGHLY compatible with each other, and it's in a format where we dont' acutally care if it's off by 3mm in any particular dimension. Pictures on paper.. is relatively easy. I'm pretty sure, even "professionals" often don't know exactly how CNC a 3d printer is. A buddy of mine prints stuff, literally for a living, and doesn't actually know how these things work. So this came up in the previous reply. Big printers are a problem. The bigger/longer the print, the more likely you're going to run into things you can't control failing the print. I figure once you get past 24 hours on a typical print, you need to start looking at splitting prints up. Even the best tunes on a printer, are still going to be limited by the hot end. At that point, you just need more printers. And then people don't get that printers need to fit through doors. ilkhan posted:I have an S1 pro, and if I upgrade it wont be to anything less than a voron 2.4. Good choice. I want to emphasize, the magic in voron, is ~not the printer itself~. It's the process that gets you ~to~ a voron. If you follow that process, even a $100 ender spits out some really excellent prints. Now I want to buy one of those $70 printers, throw good software on it, and see if we can't make it do some pretty stuff. Nerobro fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Aug 4, 2022 |
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Aug 4, 2022 19:14
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Oh, the Mini Delta worked great if you took the handle off the top and inverted it so the bed probing reliably triggered/the bed went back to its normal position after each probe point. Also it's just cool to watch a Delta print upside-down.
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Aug 4, 2022 19:30
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Oh, the Mini Delta worked great if you took the handle off the top and inverted it so the bed probing reliably triggered/the bed went back to its normal position after each probe point. I mean? sure. This is part of the problem. The part that drives me nuts, is that bible tells people to spend hours tweaking the thing to make the bed level. .... In software. The frame isn't actually clamped together, it has nuts in grooves, and those grip the frame, so the whole thing can, theoretically shift. (and practically did in my case, and other cases) I can fix it. But I spent weeks chasing my tail, trying to figure out how something that LOOKED square, was printing at an angle. I have a lot of angry baggage with that whole interaction/relationship.
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Aug 4, 2022 19:41
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Nerobro posted:I mean? sure. This is part of the problem. The part that drives me nuts, is that bible tells people to spend hours tweaking the thing to make the bed level. .... In software. The frame isn't actually clamped together, it has nuts in grooves, and those grip the frame, so the whole thing can, theoretically shift. (and practically did in my case, and other cases) I can fix it. But I spent weeks chasing my tail, trying to figure out how something that LOOKED square, was printing at an angle. Speaking about leveling. Is the self leveler for the Ender 3 worth it?
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Aug 4, 2022 20:04
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Rojo_Sombrero posted:Speaking about leveling. Is the self leveler for the Ender 3 worth it? Do you mean a bed touch sensor? Yes, but it won't level your bed for you.
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Aug 4, 2022 20:17
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Rojo_Sombrero posted:Speaking about leveling. Is the self leveler for the Ender 3 worth it? IMHO, no. I've had to re-adjust the level of the bed on my Ender 3 less than a dozen times. And most of those, have been for nozzle changes. If your bed is losing tram regularly, you have "something else wrong". For ABL to work, you need to have a "pretty good bed level" to start with. And for something with a wafer thin rolled aluminum bed like an Ender, you're gonna be chasing stuff and hurting your head doing so. And really, if you need something with a super accurate bottom surface, you always have the raft option. Nerobro fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Aug 4, 2022 |
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Aug 4, 2022 20:18
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Nerobro posted:For ABL to work, you need to have a "pretty good bed level" to start with. And for something with a wafer thin rolled aluminum bed like an Ender, you're gonna be chasing stuff and hurting your head doing so. That's the entire reason to get one though. It doesn't fix your bed level, but it will correct for the fact that it's warped, and if you have an ender the bed is probably warped.
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Aug 4, 2022 20:22
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Thanks for the answers. I'm still waiting on on my Ender 3 to be delivered. My current printer is an Anycubic Photon Mono.
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Aug 4, 2022 20:22
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ilkhan posted:I have an S1 pro, and if I upgrade it wont be to anything less than a voron 2.4. Good choice. Don't forget the Trident is a thing! (it's arguably better than the 2.4 in many ways unless you need super tall)
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Aug 4, 2022 20:28
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:That's the entire reason to get one though. It doesn't fix your bed level, but it will correct for the fact that it's warped, and if you have an ender the bed is probably warped. This gets into pages of discussion. Yes, the bed is warped. Always is. Is it enough to make it so you can't print well? Probally not. The obsession over perfect first layers is misplaced. Becuase it relates. You should see how ~new~ voron people get over a .2mm saddle in the middle of their bed. At some point your tools are bad enough that they start measuring themselves. If you "need" a perfect bottom on a print. Use a raft. Rafts isolate the shape of the printer from the thing you're printing, and then the only thing you need to be concerned about, is "is your motion system square". insta posted:Don't forget the Trident is a thing! (it's arguably better than the 2.4 in many ways unless you need super tall) Just repeating this. The Trident "gantry" is better. As it's not a gantry. The bed is "better" in many ways too. And your print is up in the warm air, all the time. And the filament path is more regular so there's going to be fewer filament feed problems.
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Aug 4, 2022 20:32
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Nerobro posted:IMHO, no. I've had to re-adjust the level of the bed on my Ender 3 less than a dozen times. And most of those, have been for nozzle changes. If your bed is losing tram regularly, you have "something else wrong". The BL-Touch on my Ender 3 Pro caused two separate people to throw up their hands and give up; the first being the guy I bought it from, the second being the local 3D printer expert who spent several hours trying to fix it, recompiling firmware, etc before conceding defeat and taking it off and rolling back the software. I guess three people if you count me, but I was/am an idiot. I'm sure they work, but don't seem worth the hassle. I have not really had any discernable issues with first layers/adhesion in a while, have only touched the bed levelling maybe once in the last 4 months? I'm currently printing a medium format field camera and have some large format plate holders teed up after that, which are definitely on the high end of required tolerances/accuracy. Won't know how successful they are until I finish and test them, but initial measurements with my calipers are very promising. Nerobro posted:So this came up in the previous reply. Big printers are a problem. The bigger/longer the print, the more likely you're going to run into things you can't control failing the print. I figure once you get past 24 hours on a typical print, you need to start looking at splitting prints up. Even the best tunes on a printer, are still going to be limited by the hot end. At that point, you just need more printers. And then people don't get that printers need to fit through doors. I think for a lot of things, sure, but sometimes a big printer is the only real answer. I'd love to be printing holders, carriers, etc for 8x10 (inch) plates and larger, but I physically can't. They tend to only be a few cm thick on the Z axis so not massively long prints, but it's not really feasible to split them on the X/Y and join them later owning to the really tight tolerances required. I mean, I haven't tried it, but I think it'll only end in pain. Doctor Zero posted:I literally thought that was "Klingon" until just now The Vorlons would like a word with you 
Ethics_Gradient fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Aug 4, 2022 |
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Aug 4, 2022 21:01
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Nerobro posted:This gets into pages of discussion. Yes, the bed is warped. Always is. Is it enough to make it so you can't print well? Probally not. The obsession over perfect first layers is misplaced. Okay? I'm sorry you had problems getting your bltouch working but mine was easy to set up and has been running fine for years. It was worth $30 to get perfect first layers every time without half an hour of bed tramming. I guess I just have a sick obsession. I don't think it's a coincidence that basically every printer made in the last 5 years has some sort of ABL, nor that most people complaining about them ITT can't get them working correctly with their printers. e: this should be obvious, but if you're making something where the top surface is the first layer, a perfect first layer absolutely does matter a lot, and a raft is not an option if you want a decent surface finish. Dr. Fishopolis fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Aug 4, 2022 |
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Aug 4, 2022 21:57
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I still don't think I'd ever go out of my way to add ABL to something the size of an Ender, but I do have to admit that the included system on this Neptune 3 is pretty nice. I could still tram it much more quickly by hand, but I haven't had to, and I guess that's pretty OK. I've been a lot less interested in tinkering with printers over the last couple of years, now I just kind of want them to give me the bacon when I press the button.
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Aug 4, 2022 22:42
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What aspect of the three minutes every other week i have to spend bed leveling my ender would be improved by a bltouch or whatever? Is it just a more precise readout of the gap I'm measuring visually?
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Aug 4, 2022 22:43
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Javid posted:What aspect of the three minutes every other week i have to spend bed leveling my ender would be improved by a bltouch or whatever? Is it just a more precise readout of the gap I'm measuring visually? It's an automatic process. That said, yellow springs on my ender 3 mean I don't need to fool with levelling unless something horrendous happens. Legitimately as reliable as levelling on my Prusa
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Aug 4, 2022 23:13
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Javid posted:What aspect of the three minutes every other week i have to spend bed leveling my ender would be improved by a bltouch or whatever? Is it just a more precise readout of the gap I'm measuring visually? It probes the bed in a grid and uses that to calculate a mesh so the nozzle will be level with the bed even if it's warped. If you're already happy with your first layer, you probably won't get much out of it.
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Aug 4, 2022 23:27
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Is there any use case for it on a non-hosed bed, though? It seems like complete overkill as compared to replacing the defective part
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Aug 5, 2022 00:23
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As an unrelated sample, the Monoprice printer I mentioned earlier has no bed sensor at all, it has a hard Z homing location and you manually tram the bed at setup to bring it into "close enough" coplanar state with the X/Y axes via the adjusting screws. A common mod was to remove the bed leveling springs and install a couple lock-nuts on the leveling threads so the bed was semi-permanently trammed (barring user error bending the frame, but you had to really gently caress up to do that). After I did that I never even had to think about leveling that printer. ...and on the Prusa Mini I basically run it the same way (remove the probing from the starting code, just home, heat up, purge line and go). ABL only accomplishes anything if your bed is out of flat enough to be a problem for a machine that may home too low to clear a high spot.
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Aug 5, 2022 00:38
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No bed is perfectly flat, and .2mm variations matter when you're trying to get a nice surface finish and/or make a very accurate part. It also gives you a ton of leeway with manual tramming and removes the need to re-tram when v-roller wheels wear in or things shift around subtly. It's not a must-have, but it does save time and effort in the long run.
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Aug 5, 2022 00:42
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Ethics_Gradient posted:The BL-Touch on my Ender 3 Pro caused two separate people to throw up their hands and give up; the first being the guy I bought it from, the second being the local 3D printer expert who spent several hours trying to fix it, recompiling firmware, etc before conceding defeat and taking it off and rolling back the software. I guess three people if you count me, but I was/am an idiot. I am a very stupid man. Both emotionally and intellectually. I manage my mental health irresponsibly with cannabinoid abuse. I work second shift and have insomnia, so I have never not worked on my Ender 3 v2 at three in the morning while high and drunk. I scream at screws when I drop them. I am so stupid, that the hardest part of the 10 minutes it took me to install my CR Touch was snaking the cord through that goddam. The hardest part of flashing the firmware flipping my mini so-card over twice. Do you and these other people that could not get your BL-Touch to work…do you live near an industry that dumps heavy metals into the water?
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Aug 5, 2022 01:13
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:No bed is perfectly flat, and .2mm variations matter when you're trying to get a nice surface finish and/or make a very accurate part. It also gives you a ton of leeway with manual tramming and removes the need to re-tram when v-roller wheels wear in or things shift around subtly. If accuracy is that critical, add 1mm to the bottom of your model and deck it flat with a face mill in a Bridgeport. What's that? You don't have any of those? Well, you're hosed because no hobby level filament fed 3d printer is that accurate across a large enough surface plane where it's actually that critical in the real world. Also ABL doesn't magically make the bottom of your print flat, it just makes it conform to the warp in your build plate setup.
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Aug 5, 2022 01:47
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Okay? I'm sorry you had problems getting your bltouch working but mine was easy to set up and has been running fine for years. It was worth $30 to get perfect first layers every time without half an hour of bed tramming. I guess I just have a sick obsession. Did I? I've never had trouble with BL-Touch. I'm glad you had a good time. But I've spent literal days worth of time fixing ~other peoples~ BL-Touches. While we're at it.. if tramming takes you half an hour, yeah, you need a BL-touch. That's a "you" problem. Lots of printers have been released without ABL. Still.. most of the market. Price seems to define if a printer comes with a bed leveling sensor of some sort. Still does. Still isn't an ideal answer. No, it's not obvious. If you want parts to mate, they need to be planar. ABL doesn't make the bottom surface flat, it makes it the shape of the bed, which can be disasterous if you're making a thing that's supposed to match the shape of another thing. And while we're talking about this, MOST people can't tell the difference between to far from the bed, and to close to the bed on the first layer. And ABL doesn't fix that. Dr. Fishopolis posted:No bed is perfectly flat, and .2mm variations matter when you're trying to get a nice surface finish and/or make a very accurate part. It also gives you a ton of leeway with manual tramming and removes the need to re-tram when v-roller wheels wear in or things shift around subtly. A part on the ABL surface, isn't actually flat. It's the shape of the bed. if you need flat, that ain't flat. It's pretty, but not accurate. Marsupial Ape posted:Do you and these other people that could not get your BL-Touch to work…do you live near an industry that dumps heavy metals into the water? Maybe they are. But you also had it easy. Older platforms, stranger platforms, might not be able to do SD card firmware updates. Or get stone confused on how to set bed gap. Or are operating their BL-Touch in a hot chamber. Or installed the wrong firmware. Or plugged things in backwards. Or bent the pin in installation. Or plugged it in wrong and fried a pin on their controller. Or bricked their board during firmware install. Or decided that a 64 point bed level was better because more is more always and it takes them 45 minutes to start a print. I could keep going. It also introduces a new failure mode. A BL-Touch is a component that can fail. Can run into a print. Can fail to actuate. Is shockingly temperature sensitive. And is seperate from your nozzle, so when you do replace nozzles, you need to re-calibrate the bed offset. Javid posted:Is there any use case for it on a non-hosed bed, though? It seems like complete overkill as compared to replacing the defective part It's really "in the noise". if your bed is bad enough to ~need~ it, there's a good chance it's gonna make problems for you otherwise. It definitely gets you into "feel good" moments with clean first layers. Half my printers have ABL of some sort. The ones that don't, don't make me want it either. If I weren't printing on a textured bed most of the time.. I might care a little bit more than I do now. I suspect most of the hobbies dependence on ABL, hinges upon harsh treatment of the bed itself. Before magnetic beds became the thing, it was ~effort~ and ~forceful~ to remove prints, and this would definitely screw up the bed. I ended up using a polycarbonate magnetic sticker on my ender for the first.. oh.. year. that got me around a lot of things that anyone with a buildtack, or even glass bed might run into. It's better to have a printer that doesn't need ABL, than to use ABL to fix a printer that won't work without it. To go back to the "voron magic" thing, while they DO have ABL, they start off with a cast aluminum bed, with a magnetic build plate. First, is a stable material for the bed, that doesn't crawl all over the place when heated, second is a build surface is removable, so you never actually stress the bed. ~do everything else right~ My v0 doesn't have ABL. Edit: If you have ABL, cool. Know what it does, how it does it. If you don't, that doesn't mean you ~need~ it. It won't necessarily make your life any easier. Sometimes, simple is good. Doing the job "right" is a lot more than just slapping ABL on your printer and "being happy". Again, lets point back at voron. When you have ABL there, you ALSO have a nozzle sensor, which actually does take the work out of things. There's no recalibration after you swap a nozzle. The only thing you do, is tell the printer how far your bed is from your nozzle sensor. Nerobro fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Aug 5, 2022 |
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Aug 5, 2022 01:48
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I know the thread has moved past this topic but one defense for OpenSCAD is that you used to be able to upload your .scad files to Thingiverse and it presented a Customizer right in the browser that let users change parameters using GUI elements like dropdowns and sliders so they could make custom STLs for their own use. Thingiverse gonna Thingiverse so now that doesn't even work anymore., of course.
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Aug 5, 2022 01:54
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this is genuinely the first time I've ever heard anyone argue that ABL makes you weak and your prints worse because they're in the "feel good zone" but i think it was a pretty good upgrade honestly.
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Aug 5, 2022 02:24
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:this is genuinely the first time I've ever heard anyone argue that ABL makes you weak and your prints worse because they're in the "feel good zone" but i think it was a pretty good upgrade honestly. Oh no, I was saying if leveling your bed takes ~you in specific~ half an hour, that's a problem with you, and yes, abl is probably proper. There are some people who just can't and shouldn't be at that end of a cnc machine. They're rare. But here you are. Not weak, just not your strong point. Own it. It's you. It's fine. It's also $30, and what generally amounts to a subscription to $30 parts. Assuming we're talking about the cr or bl touch. Clicky is worth every penny, especially if you do a nozzle sensor too. Clicky is $5 in parts. Sexbolt or pin for a nozzle sensor is similar. And.. Don't wear out.. Assuming everything went perfect, I still haven't spent more than $60 of my time leveling beds. Having a pretty surface on the bed, might be your goal. My buddy who prints artwork for a living, that matters to him. I want mechanically accurate parts. Nerobro fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Aug 5, 2022 |
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Aug 5, 2022 03:06
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Even if your bed was atomically flat, anything you print will still end up with some level of thermal warping
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Aug 5, 2022 03:34
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BMan posted:Even if your bed was atomically flat, anything you print will still end up with some level of thermal warping Hey, guys, where in Cura settings can I adjust to account for the observer effect?
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Aug 5, 2022 03:51
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Nerobro posted:It's also $30, and what generally amounts to a subscription to $30 parts. i replaced the probe once because i broke it it cost $4 for 5 of them
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Aug 5, 2022 04:01
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Scarodactyl posted:Actually my ender works great. Ditto. The small pile of Ender 3s that I use to print parts for money are hilariously reliable after thousands of hours of non-stop printing. Creality 100% has QC problems, though, so it's not something you can ignore. It's just silly when people act like getting these machines into a relatively reliable state is some herculean task. I really, really want an S1 Pro, I just can't justify the price of another FDM machine at this point.
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Aug 5, 2022 05:00
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:i replaced the probe once because i broke it This isn't the argument you think it is. I'm glad replacement probes are available, that wasn't the case a surprisingly short time ago. That still doesn't address the heat soak problems with the BL-Touch. The CR-Touch, I believe is better. Paradoxish posted:Ditto. The small pile of Ender 3s that I use to print parts for money are hilariously reliable after thousands of hours of non-stop printing. This. The whole idea of needing to pay attention to setup... is foreign to many. And is ~absolutely critical~. It's good even for good printers.
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Aug 5, 2022 05:13
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Nerobro posted:That still doesn't address the heat soak problems with the BL-Touch. The CR-Touch, I believe is better. Cool, i'll probably get one if i build an enclosure.
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Aug 5, 2022 05:21
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Marsupial Ape posted:Hey, guys, where in Cura settings can I adjust to account for the observer effect? It's under "Schrodinger". Right after the inbuilt cat benchmark, that prints correctly, skips every other layer, or ghosts entirely by not actually extruding any material while going through the motions. 
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Aug 5, 2022 05:31
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Ygolonac posted:It's under "Schrodinger". Right after the inbuilt cat benchmark, that prints correctly, skips every other layer, or ghosts entirely by not actually extruding any material while going through the motions. Oh, ok, I had that turned on by default…
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Aug 5, 2022 05:33
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quote:I want mechanically accurate parts. biracial bear for uncut posted:If accuracy is that critical, add 1mm to the bottom of your model and deck it flat with a face mill in a Bridgeport.
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Aug 5, 2022 13:14
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the PINDA /ABL on the Mk3s could not help me get adhesion on my warped bed (0.3+ variance). I got sick of printing with rafts or brim when I needed a flat piece and did the locknut swap. That didn't get it flat enough, so I had to unwarp the bed. There's no hardware or software work around a bad warp. I still think my PINDA sensor isn't that great because I have to lower it about 0.1mm closer to the bed than prusa says I should, but lol at spending $30 +S&H to find out.
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Aug 5, 2022 13:56
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I've been running 3 perimeters almost 100% of the time on my 0.4mm nozzles for the extra strength and surface quality. When I go to 0.6 on everything should I be dropping back down to 2? I assume the extra extrusion width would more than make up for things, but I'm not really sure what all the specific edge cases are...
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Aug 5, 2022 15:15
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