Warhammer: After 18 years, finally an end

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bob dobbs is dead: Oct 8, 2017; I love peeps; Nap Ghost

dark imperium posted:

A soft fanfare announced the intention of Captain Felix to speak with him. A cyber cherub clattered in a clumsy search pattern around the scriptorium on metal wings. Such things were grotesque, techno-alchemy far removed from the purer machinery of his day. The madness of Mars had infected everything. Guilliman let it flap about pathetically, its underpowered ocular senses gridding the scriptorium as it searched for him.

The pallid flesh of the cherub�s torso and arms was sore where steel cables plunged into the skin. The rest of it was mechanical, with metal wings and legs. A bare child�s skull made in perfect silver capped a neck of woven copper.

It wove jerkily under one of the arches into the cloister, and thereafter found him soon enough. It came to a halt and hovered, wings noisily beating.

�My lord, Guilliman.� The thing�s skeletal jaw was cast shut, and Felix�s voice crackled out of a brass trumpet stitched into a dead hand. The cherub�s emerald eyes flashed at each word. The sensibilities of this age did not appeal to Guilliman. Hateful art for a hateful time.

...

The light went from the cherub�s eyes. It flew off, motor buzzing. The primarch watched it go back to its roost with critical eyes. The wings were more than adornment; from the sound of it, there was not enough lift in the gravity impeller to keep it aloft. The machines of this millennium were crude. The engineers among his brothers would probably have caught the thing in a net and rebuilt the motor; he was close to doing so himself. Either that, or tossing it out of an airlock into the void and replacing it with something less ghoulish.

...

Thinking on the cherub brought another unwelcome flash of what he had seen behind the Eternity Gate: the corpse in the ungentle embrace of Mechanicus technology, part meat, part machine, and the terrible screaming of the soul syphons�

He shook his head to quash the memory. He could not fix everything. Not all at once. Guilliman deliberately put the grotesque device from his mind and returned to his desk. He did not sit, but pulled out a new book and stood flicking through it.

# ? Oct 10, 2022 16:01

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 03:29

Marshal Prolapse: Jun 23, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Dog_Meat posted:

I've not read much of the RG returned stuff, but someone else in the thread mentioned him being creeped out by servitors. Which I found odd as they were in the 30k era and a fundamental part of imperial structure, right? But cherubs makes a bit more sense.

What's this from, anyway? Is there a passage that can be posted up?

I want to say it�s Dark Imperium. It just struck me and I thought (before I was reading HH era stuff) the worst poo poo from the Mechanicum was after RG was in stasis. One thing to remember about RG too is he�s probably the only Primarch to have a real family unit (like having a mother for example), although Corax is kind of a communal good family and Dorn and others were decent, but nobody beats Big Blue.

I think it�s one of the reasons I liked RG so quickly, was that he was repulsed by a lot of stuff in the Imperium, which after 8-10K years of stagnation and hyper religious insanity�it is a good thing to see.

# ? Oct 10, 2022 16:14

Calax: Oct 5, 2011

HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

Haley's failure, which is where Abnett really succeeds with RG, is in not dousing his portrayal of him in a deep depression at everything falling apart. He instead comes across as just a busybody protagonist.

Part of it that Haley tries to deal with (that I'm not sure Abnett has had a chance to) is RG having to catch himself up on everything that's gone wrong since his nap. The fact that there's an order of the Inquisition dedicated to figuring out what year it is for example. And it's not like Haley paints him as a shining beacon, the man captured and tortured a daemon inside one of his subjects in a way that made the Grey Knights stop working with him. And if I remember, the other part of his depression is the fact that he went before the Golden Throne and realized that to his Father, he's nothing but a weapon. Given he spent the previous centuries believing he was viewed as something more, that's gonna hit you a bit hard.

# ? Oct 10, 2022 17:20

Marshal Prolapse: Jun 23, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Calax posted:

Part of it that Haley tries to deal with (that I'm not sure Abnett has had a chance to) is RG having to catch himself up on everything that's gone wrong since his nap. The fact that there's an order of the Inquisition dedicated to figuring out what year it is for example. And it's not like Haley paints him as a shining beacon, the man captured and tortured a daemon inside one of his subjects in a way that made the Grey Knights stop working with him. And if I remember, the other part of his depression is the fact that he went before the Golden Throne and realized that to his Father, he's nothing but a weapon. Given he spent the previous centuries believing he was viewed as something more, that's gonna hit you a bit hard.

Yet, to quote the RG and Big E fan fic short: �Only in Death Does Duty End.�

I think the fact that despite everything, including him now knowing trying to talk to his dad is like �talking to a star� and that he only exists as a artisanal tool, and doesn�t just go: �gently caress this I�m going to the world of hookers and blow, gently caress humanity� is quite admirable, at least for me.

# ? Oct 10, 2022 17:51

Improbable Lobster: Jan 6, 2012; "From each according to his ability" said Ares. It sounded like a quotation.; Buglord

wiegieman posted:

A lot of screwups happen when the Imperium tries to mess with Astartes because they don't really understand how much of it is purely physical and how much is Warp poo poo related to their Primarchs.

I'm of the opinion that the geneseed is a full of warpjuice with some primarchjuice for flavour and that's also why marines seem to fall to chaos so often.

# ? Oct 10, 2022 17:58

Dog_Meat: May 19, 2013

bob dobbs is dead posted:

A very messed up scene

Yep. That would do it... Jesus.

The lobotomised clown child's toy in The Book keeper's Skull was bad enough, but then you start asking where servitor baby bodies come from

Dog_Meat fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Oct 11, 2022

# ? Oct 10, 2022 18:04

wiegieman: Apr 22, 2010; Royalty is a continuous cutting motion

Dog_Meat posted:

Yep. That would do it... Jesus.

The lobotomised clown child's toy in The Bookeeper's Skull was bad enough, but then you start asking where servitor baby bodies come from

A lot of servitors are cloned off standard templates. Not all of them, but a lot of them.

# ? Oct 10, 2022 18:05

Marshal Prolapse: Jun 23, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Dog_Meat posted:

Yep. That would do it... Jesus.

The lobotomised clown child's toy in The Bookeeper's Skull was bad enough, but then you start asking where servitor baby bodies come from

Not that I even want to remotely sound like I�m defending it, but I thought those are all that grown and without central nervous system�s.

It�s still a horrific abomination and I respect RG for being creeped the gently caress out by them, as I said earlier. I also think it helps to make him sympathetic to a M2 human reading it.

# ? Oct 10, 2022 18:05

Sephyr: Aug 28, 2012

Improbable Lobster posted:

I'm of the opinion that the geneseed is a full of warpjuice with some primarchjuice for flavour and that's also why marines seem to fall to chaos so often.

Eh. Other than the heresy itself, barely any marines fall, which really harms the setting's premise in a way. If the big dark temptation is so easy to resist once you have been brutalized/indoctrinated enough, what's the point? Entire categories (Custodes, Grey Knights) also get full immunity.

I really wish Guilliman had gone full Imperius Tertius upon his return instead of just going back to being the Best Blue Boy. "Yeah, no, this is hosed. I'm declaring my turf its own thing with actual standards. Others can join if they meet these requisites. And if the High Lords of terra try to send any fleets of expeditions, we'll see which side the other Astartes chapters pick. Are you going to roll this dice with the Eye of Terror cracked wide? Didn't think so."

# ? Oct 10, 2022 18:08

Marshal Prolapse: Jun 23, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Sephyr posted:

Eh. Other than the heresy itself, barely any marines fall, which really harms the setting's premise in a way. If the big dark temptation is so easy to resist once you have been brutalized/indoctrinated enough, what's the point? Entire categories (Custodes, Grey Knights) also get full immunity.

I really wish Guilliman had gone full Imperius Tertius upon his return instead of just going back to being the Best Blue Boy. "Yeah, no, this is hosed. I'm declaring my turf its own thing with actual standards. Others can join if they meet these requisites. And if the High Lords of terra try to send any fleets of expeditions, we'll see which side the other Astartes chapters pick. Are you going to roll this dice with the Eye of Terror cracked wide? Didn't think so."

Well this would probably be fun to read, I can�t imagine him ever doing this for the simple reason that he is still deeply embarrassed by Imperial Secundus, even though it was both the proper strategic and moral thing to do and he remembers the Hersey. I�m wondering just how many people in the imperium were probably present during the heresy and are still around? I mean the only other ones I could think of would be Bjorn and custodians. He takes the shame and pain of that very much to heart.

# ? Oct 10, 2022 18:12

Sephyr: Aug 28, 2012

That makes sense , except that the motivation for Imperium Secundus (The original Imperium no longer existing and a version of the 'pure' Imperial vision needing to endure) arguably applies even more now.

# ? Oct 10, 2022 19:06

Improbable Lobster: Jan 6, 2012; "From each according to his ability" said Ares. It sounded like a quotation.; Buglord

Marshal Prolapse posted:

Not that I even want to remotely sound like I’m defending it, but I thought those are all that grown and without central nervous system‘s.

It’s still a horrific abomination and I respect RG for being creeped the gently caress out by them, as I said earlier. I also think it helps to make him sympathetic to a M2 human reading it.

It varies
From The Voice of Mars by David Guymer

quote:

The cherub servitor that levitated incongruously by her shoulder chattered to the door mechanism in short bursts of binaric cipher. The mummified foetus hovered vaguely on the spot, archaic anti-gravitics fizzing and popping from between its in-curled legs. A thumb-sized lens of blue spinel distended one eye socket. The other was stapled shut. As was its mouth. As was its nose.
The unborn child would have been precious to someone once. She wondered who.
She could still remember what it had felt like to be fascinated by such technologies. Before her hair had fallen out and her gums had been poisoned and her lungs had turned black.

[...]

All she could think about was that cherub.
Maybe it wasn’t a human foetus after all. See the elipticity of the palatine structure, the bony protrusions of the themastoid process. A ratling, perhaps. She had only seen one in instructional vellums. She would need to–
The cherub emitted a burst of binaric cipher at the door mechanism.
It responded in kind.

wiegieman posted:

A lot of servitors are cloned off standard templates. Not all of them, but a lot of them.

From Flesh and Steel by Guy Haley

quote:

Naked human beings were standing in a switchbacked line between high fences. Outside the fences Adeptus Mechanicus menials in environment suits stood guard with shock goads in hand. The people, all mature men and women, were shepherded down the caged walk like livestock. And they were food beasts being led to the slaughter, meat for the ravenous appetite of the Machine-God. I grew up lucky enough to eat real meat. I was unlucky enough to see where it came from – another gift of my father on another drat tour of my family’s various businesses. The manufactorum produced servitors, but it was more akin to an abattoir than a workshop. Every surface was easily cleanable. Large plastek flaps divided areas from each other. Servitors with spray units surgically attached to their backs prowled about, hosing filth into slit drains set into the perfectly smooth, slanted floors. We walked above all this, past sentry pods on spikes occupied by galvanic rifle-armed snipers. Our path went from one end of the hall to the other, and I could see pretty much the whole sorting process, beginning to end.
As the line slowly advanced, the people were passed through various scanning devices, most of them mounted in ugly, functional arches that let out a constant series of acceptance chimes. Occasionally, one would let out an angry blare, and the indicator lumens would flash red. The rejected person was then swallowed up by a trapdoor opening beneath their feet. From these pits wafted a hideous stench, and the grinding sounds of industrial mincers. One rejected man grabbed on to the lip and hung there, arms and hands bloodied, shouting a stream of defiant profanities. Guards lined the grating either side of him and shocked him until he fell. The adepts wouldn’t even waste bullets on these people.
The trapdoor flipped up, and the next terrified person was ushered forward.
A number of pneumatic gates separated the people from each part of the process, snapping open and shut with bone-crushing force.
Violent metal arms snatched them up and spread-eagled them in the air, and a servitor shearer shaved them all over. At another they were subjected to a high-pressure counterseptic wash whose chemical stink made me choke from a hundred feet away. More scanners, more rejects winnowed out. Machines forcibly dressed them in the heavy rubberised garments common to all mono-tasked servitors. These were saggy on them, all one size, until another process force-shrank them to fit their bodies where metal cuffs, sockets and collars bit into vulnerable flesh. The last few prayers gave way to screams at that point, and even the most stoic shouted in pain. They were ushered over a floor buzzing with power that made them shriek with every footstep.
‘What’s that for?’ I asked.
Djelling answered only reluctantly. ‘Follicular inhibitor. To stop their hair growing,’ he said.
‘How?’ I asked.
Djelling was done answering. ‘Come, come, this way.’ He waved me over to a door.
I didn’t come this way. I watched numbly. The shivering lines of terrified men and women reached a final series of gates, where a high-energy augur beam of such potency it made my dataslate buzz passed over them. Dazed, they were manhandled into different queues, and then hustled from the room to their fates.
Djelling gripped my elbow with surprising strength and pushed me out of the hall.
‘This way. Please,’ he said.
Thankfully, I was spared a view of the surgeries. I doubted the Adeptus Mechanicus provided anaesthetic, for the same reasons they would not dull the pain of a nail under the hammer.

# ? Oct 10, 2022 19:26

Marshal Prolapse: Jun 23, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Well that�s loving horrific.

# ? Oct 10, 2022 19:53

Sephyr: Aug 28, 2012

Marshal Prolapse posted:

Well that�s loving horrific.

Exactly.

Any 'decent' loyalist primarch would likely secede from that alone.

In a way, the Heresy series giving character to the Primarchs painted the setting into a corner. It had to separate the 'good' primarchs from the 'bad' ones, and thus made them cool, smart, humanist guys that were just ok with HEAPS OF GENOCIDE back then, and propping up an insane evil distopia in the present.

That said, it was darkly brilliant that Horus' first act as Warmaster was going "Hey, maybe we can try to NOT be space nazis" and it exploded in his face.

# ? Oct 10, 2022 20:28

Improbable Lobster: Jan 6, 2012; "From each according to his ability" said Ares. It sounded like a quotation.; Buglord

Part of why I like Ferrus Manus is that he doesn't really gets the heroic treatment where they try to paper over and ignore the brutal, genocidal nature of the Imperium. He's direct and doesn't hide that the Imperium is about conquering, not any real peace

# ? Oct 10, 2022 20:57

MrNemo: Aug 26, 2010; "I just love beeting off"

So a random thought. It's canon that marines have a pretty powerful reaction to their primarchs and even chaos corrupted ones can be pretty swayed the cloned Fulgrim in the Bile books. Lots of chaos warbands also source new recruits using stolen geneseed, thinking specifically of the raid on the Marines Errant monastery here.

So what happens when a chaos marine with Bobby G's geneseed bumps into him? Seems like there should be enough that if he's constantly crusading against them it should happen.

# ? Oct 10, 2022 21:27

D-Pad: Jun 28, 2006

My understanding is that most cherubs are vat grown but some are actual babies while most servitors are people but some of them are vat grown.

# ? Oct 10, 2022 21:42

Sephyr: Aug 28, 2012

MrNemo posted:

So a random thought. It's canon that marines have a pretty powerful reaction to their primarchs and even chaos corrupted ones can be pretty swayed the cloned Fulgrim in the Bile books. Lots of chaos warbands also source new recruits using stolen geneseed, thinking specifically of the raid on the Marines Errant monastery here.

So what happens when a chaos marine with Bobby G's geneseed bumps into him? Seems like there should be enough that if he's constantly crusading against them it should happen.

I assume it depends on the level of corruption, and the astartes in question.

Loken is able to pretty much flip off Horus himself at the height of his power in 'Vengeful Spirit'.

# ? Oct 10, 2022 21:48

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Sephyr posted:

Eh. Other than the heresy itself, barely any marines fall, which really harms the setting's premise in a way. If the big dark temptation is so easy to resist once you have been brutalized/indoctrinated enough, what's the point? Entire categories (Custodes, Grey Knights) also get full immunity.

Entire chapters have fallen. The Badab War was about several doing it at once. They're still doing fine.

D-Pad posted:

My understanding is that most cherubs are vat grown but some are actual babies while most servitors are people but some of them are vat grown.

Given what we know about the Imperium their definition of "vat" might differ from ours.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 00:23

DaysBefore: Jan 24, 2019

The Krieg regiments are all clones too aren't they

# ? Oct 11, 2022 00:28

Khizan: Jul 30, 2013

Marshal Prolapse posted:

Well this would probably be fun to read, I can�t imagine him ever doing this for the simple reason that he is still deeply embarrassed by Imperial Secundus, even though it was both the proper strategic and moral thing to do and he remembers the Hersey. I�m wondering just how many people in the imperium were probably present during the heresy and are still around? I mean the only other ones I could think of would be Bjorn and custodians. He takes the shame and pain of that very much to heart.

Belisarius Cawl.

Aside from that, there's probably other dreadnoughts out there somewhere. After all, Raguel the Sufferer was a Heresy-era dreadnought and the Blood Angels were using him as boarding crew on some trash-tier Night Lords crew.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 00:44

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

DaysBefore posted:

The Krieg regiments are all clones too aren't they

Kinda, maybe? It depends on how you interpret it. I doubt they'd make all the women into baby factories because that's one less person they can put into a uniform to charge a trench line. But I don't know if that necessarily means cloning is on the table or just that they have vat grown babies from multiple donors.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 00:52

Benagain: Oct 10, 2007; Can you see that I am serious?; Fun Shoe

Krieg is warp phenomen in the emperor's name like saints.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 00:57

Inspector_666: Oct 7, 2003; _{benny with the good hair}

Arc Hammer posted:

Kinda, maybe? It depends on how you interpret it. I doubt they'd make all the women into baby factories because that's one less person they can put into a uniform to charge a trench line. But I don't know if that necessarily means cloning is on the table or just that they have vat grown babies from multiple donors.

From reading Krieg it seems like the Death Korps are all clones from some borderline-heretical tech and potentially all based on the loyalist Colonel who nuked the whole planet to win the civil war.

Also potentially all child soldiers who undergo some kind of accelerated growth?

Inspector_666 fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Oct 11, 2022

# ? Oct 11, 2022 01:15

bob dobbs is dead: Oct 8, 2017; I love peeps; Nap Ghost

what part of "vitae womb" do you not understand

# ? Oct 11, 2022 02:16

0konner: Nov 17, 2016; I WAS THERE
WHEN CODY RHODES
FINISHED THE STORY

The krieg novels iirc talk about mechanicum science they use to replenish the population but their reproduction does also involve krieg women being exclusively devoted to reproduction and never serving in the guard. so I don�t think it�s exclusively cloned test tube things there.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 02:18

Improbable Lobster: Jan 6, 2012; "From each according to his ability" said Ares. It sounded like a quotation.; Buglord

Sephyr posted:

Eh. Other than the heresy itself, barely any marines fall, which really harms the setting's premise in a way. If the big dark temptation is so easy to resist once you have been brutalized/indoctrinated enough, what's the point? Entire categories (Custodes, Grey Knights) also get full immunity.

Arquinsiel posted:

Entire chapters have fallen. The Badab War was about several doing it at once. They're still doing fine.

Yeah, this is just wrong. Sure, it doesn't happen constantly but even a brief look at the origins of chaos warbands will reveal that a not-insignificant portion were former chapters, not legion just offshoots. The Shriven were formerly the Brazen Drakes, for example

# ? Oct 11, 2022 02:27

Marshal Prolapse: Jun 23, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Khizan posted:

Belisarius Cawl.

Aside from that, there's probably other dreadnoughts out there somewhere. After all, Raguel the Sufferer was a Heresy-era dreadnought and the Blood Angels were using him as boarding crew on some trash-tier Night Lords crew.

D�oh I can�t believe I forgot about Cawl of all people.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 02:34

Calax: Oct 5, 2011

Sephyr posted:

Eh. Other than the heresy itself, barely any marines fall, which really harms the setting's premise in a way. If the big dark temptation is so easy to resist once you have been brutalized/indoctrinated enough, what's the point? Entire categories (Custodes, Grey Knights) also get full immunity.

The Grey Knights have their memories bleached after every mission. Making the normal temptations and attachments that Chaos would use to subvert them to the powers of Chaos basically gone.

Custodes I can't give an answer for, but I suspect that the fact that they are consistently close to the corporeal version of their God probably makes it very hard for them to have even mild taint.

I mean one of the more interesting things about all of this is that Abnett has stated that at this point, the big E probably has accepted he's going to be treated as a God, and even welcomes the divinity and prayer. This was stated in the same interview he gave where he talked about the idea that the Golden Throne might be holding him back from properly resurrecting as his true self. (I think it was with Ars Technica?)

As for those that are still around from the Heresy, Most of the primaris reinforcements are from the 30th mellenium when Cawl set about his great work. Beyond that, the primarchs, and Cawl himself, I suspect that the others you'd be looking for are within the Warp.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 05:08

D-Pad: Jun 28, 2006

Calax posted:

The Grey Knights have their memories bleached after every mission.

No they don't. Other Astartes that fight alongside them have their memories wiped but the GK does not. And even the Astartes mindwipe is not true in every case.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 07:19

mllaneza: Apr 28, 2007; Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952

Calax posted:

Part of it that Haley tries to deal with (that I'm not sure Abnett has had a chance to) is RG having to catch himself up on everything that's gone wrong since his nap. The fact that there's an order of the Inquisition dedicated to figuring out what year it is for example.

"What year is it ?"
"No, seriously."
"Wait, why am I getting different answers for the year."

# ? Oct 11, 2022 07:29

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

0konner posted:

The krieg novels iirc talk about mechanicum science they use to replenish the population but their reproduction does also involve krieg women being exclusively devoted to reproduction and never serving in the guard. so I don�t think it�s exclusively cloned test tube things there.

Well when you've started by forcing half the population into being brood animals and just churning out babies as fast as possible and then you use possibly heretical tech to increase the production of soldiers who can go die then considering the state of the universe and the fact that the stain you are trying to purge is unpurgeable and your planet will always be tainted by it then at no point will you ever have enough production.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 13:29

Calax: Oct 5, 2011

D-Pad posted:

No they don't. Other Astartes that fight alongside them have their memories wiped but the GK does not. And even the Astartes mindwipe is not true in every case.

Bleached, not removed. In the old Trilogy, once the main character got back from his mission, he underwent several procedures that meant that all the emotion tied to his memories of his previous mission were removed. He still recalled the mission, but the person who had given her soul for his success was seen as just a statistic rather than a comrade in arms. The attachment that he had formed with that person was destroyed and the mission became the mental equivalent of an After Action report.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 16:49

Dog_Meat: May 19, 2013

Sephyr posted:

I really wish Guilliman had gone full Imperius Tertius upon his return instead of just going back to being the Best Blue Boy. "Yeah, no, this is hosed. I'm declaring my turf its own thing with actual standards. Others can join if they meet these requisites. And if the High Lords of terra try to send any fleets of expeditions, we'll see which side the other Astartes chapters pick. Are you going to roll this dice with the Eye of Terror cracked wide? Didn't think so."

Would this work though? The throne world still needs the Astronomicon protected and functioning for the Imperial fleets (including Bobby G's forces) to be able to get anywhere. Not to mention that Guilliman's deal is that he's a son of the Emperor, so his perceived power comes from the Emperor still being the centre of the universe. This means the military might and power base needs to be around the literal throne.

Not to mention the Custodes have some pretty vast resources and no issues taking down a primarch if they feel it would protect the palace and throne.

Was Gulliman found early enough to know what happened to the missing primarchs?

# ? Oct 11, 2022 18:28

Marshal Prolapse: Jun 23, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Dog_Meat posted:

Would this work though? The throne world still needs the Astronomicon protected and functioning for the Imperial fleets (including Bobby G's forces) to be able to get anywhere. Not to mention that Guilliman's deal is that he's a son of the Emperor, so his perceived power comes from the Emperor still being the centre of the universe. This means the military might and power base needs to be around the literal throne.

Not to mention the Custodes have some pretty vast resources and no issues taking down a primarch if they feel it would protect the palace and throne.

Was Gulliman found early enough to know what happened to the missing primarchs?

I think(?) so. Dorn definitely was.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 18:34

Warden: Jan 16, 2020

Horus and Khan confronted Malcador about the damnatio memorio that was going to be done to the two lost ones, and Khan was found well after Guilliman.

There's a short story that implies that it was Dorn and Guilliman who talked Malcador and Emps down from simply purging all of the Lost Legion Astartes on the condition that all of them would be subjected to a mind-wipe and all of the the Primarchs themselves would have their memories of their lost brothers altered.

So Guilliman knows that he lost two brothers before the Heresy because they hosed up super-bad in some way, but he cannot recall the details.

There's been occasional coy hints in the books (like the Alpharius Primarch book) that Leman Russ was given the kill order on at least one of them, but the writers refuse to give clear, unambiguous answers.

Warden fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Oct 11, 2022

# ? Oct 11, 2022 19:12

Khizan: Jul 30, 2013

IIRC, it's also implied that one reason why the Ultramarines were so large is that they took in a lot of the marines from the Lost Legions, which makes a lot of sense. Who else would you give them to?

# ? Oct 11, 2022 20:39

pentyne: Nov 7, 2012

Khizan posted:

IIRC, it's also implied that one reason why the Ultramarines were so large is that they took in a lot of the marines from the Lost Legions, which makes a lot of sense. Who else would you give them to?

Did they ever stop dancing around it or making mentions? I remember vividly that during the first half of the Horus Heresy books they kept teasing references to the 2 lost legions, like Horus seeing the past and mentioning the 2 primarch capsules that would be lost to memory/tragedy something, and how the Space Wolves as the executioners/enforcers against other legions was "not, not the first time" when talking about dealing with the Thousand Sons.

I recall there was something about maybe one lost to chaos/rebellion and how the other fell trying to stop it? I thought the GW official line forever and always was to keep it a mystery so people could create their own OC armies.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 20:57

Marshal Prolapse: Jun 23, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Warden posted:

Horus and Khan confronted Malcador about the damnatio memorio that was going to be done to the two lost ones, and Khan was found well after Guilliman.

There's a short story that implies that it was Dorn and Guilliman who talked Malcador and Emps down from simply purging all of the Lost Legion Astartes on the condition that all of them would be subjected to a mind-wipe and all of the the Primarchs themselves would have their memories of their lost brothers altered.

So Guilliman knows that he lost two brothers before the Heresy because they hosed up super-bad in some way, but he cannot recall the details.

There's been occasional coy hints in the books (like the Alpharius Primarch book) that Leman Russ was given the kill order on at least one of them, but the writers refuse to give clear, unambiguous answers.

Offhand what's the name of that short story? I'd like to give it a way.

The weird thing with the two lost legions is how the were wiped from history, but even more so then any traitor legion was.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 21:03

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 03:29

Improbable Lobster: Jan 6, 2012; "From each according to his ability" said Ares. It sounded like a quotation.; Buglord

Khizan posted:

IIRC, it's also implied that one reason why the Ultramarines were so large is that they took in a lot of the marines from the Lost Legions, which makes a lot of sense. Who else would you give them to?

IIRC Word Bearers were also implied to have gotten some

# ? Oct 12, 2022 00:32

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