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Not a Christian, and I don't agree with Bar Ran Dun fully, but it seems obvious that the fig tree is an example of the spiritual poverty of people like the textually adjacent moneychangers. Outward flourishing draws people in, but there's nothing nourishing to be found in them, and it would be best if the outward appearance were destroyed utterly so that people are not lead down the wrong path out of ignorance. Yr boy is priming the pump for acting in an even more dramatic, outwardly destructive way out of love. In an extreme and actually very unethical example on the same theme, there's a story about the Chan master Nanchuan cutting a cat in half, because the monks were so infatuated with the cat that they literally could not demonstrate any kind of spiritual understanding at all. Their attachment to the pleasing things about the cat were, in a traditional understanding, damning them, because they continued to eat food given to them by sick and hungry people, people who desperately needed service and guidance in their lives. Guidance from people who were given the incredible opportunity to cultivate themselves as a vocation to help themselves and others, but were wasting it. Poor cat.
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May 18, 2023 19:47
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Prurient Squid posted:I'm just going to infodump a verbatim Jeff Foster post on the self help industry. I do this as a self help junkie who might have gone a little too far at the moment. this owns do it
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May 18, 2023 19:56
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Thanks for the tip. That led to me reading a good exegesis on that story in lions roar. https://www.lionsroar.com/quick-who-can-save-this-cat/
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May 18, 2023 19:58
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quiggy posted:God Hates Figs lmao
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May 18, 2023 19:59
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Nessus posted:I don’t get it either. I guess this is why Bertrand Russel brought it up. That said, if the one thing Jesus did “wrong” as the mark of humanity, was curse a bad fig tree, that’s pretty small change. apocryphal, but jesus also blinded a kid and threw another off a roof because they pissed him off
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May 18, 2023 20:00
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sinnesloeschen posted:apocryphal, but jesus also blinded a kid and threw another off a roof because they pissed him off In this sense I am very christ-like
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May 18, 2023 20:01
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Well the other thing is position relative to the metaphor. That cat story is almost like cutting off one’s hand or gouging out one’s eye in the sermon on the Mount.
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May 18, 2023 20:03
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sinnesloeschen posted:apocryphal, but jesus also blinded a kid and threw another off a roof because they pissed him off
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May 18, 2023 20:04
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sinnesloeschen posted:apocryphal, but jesus also blinded a kid and threw another off a roof because they pissed him off I think actually Jesus was accused of pushing the kid off the roof, but he raised the kid from the dead and the kid then admitted he fell off the roof.
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May 18, 2023 20:07
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Deteriorata posted:I think actually Jesus was accused of pushing the kid off the roof, but he raised the kid from the dead and the kid then admitted he fell off the roof. ok but he totally blinded that one dude (afaik he fixed it later but lmao)
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May 18, 2023 20:09
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birth gospel owns
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May 18, 2023 20:09
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sinnesloeschen posted:birth gospel owns Also in there was Jesus messing around on the Sabbath, making little birds out of clay. A neighbor got all cranked up about his Sabbath-breaking, so Jesus clapped his hands and all the clay birds turned into real birds and flew away.
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May 18, 2023 20:11
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Deteriorata posted:Also in there was Jesus messing around on the Sabbath, making little birds out of clay. A neighbor got all cranked up about his Sabbath-breaking, so Jesus clapped his hands and all the clay birds turned into real birds and flew away. Jesus owns. And saves! Valiantman posted:I don't really have any good input towards the scout thing but I just wanted to say hello to a fellow scout. Hello from Finland! Hey, thanks! I won't post any more about Scouting (and thanks again to everyone who replied, I got some really good material from y'all) but I'd love to hear about your Finnish Scouting experience over here.
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May 18, 2023 20:14
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Judgy Fucker posted:I need to come up with an invocation for tonight's meeting, which I am confident I will, but thinking more generally I need to start workshopping some themes for possible worship services that fit the "interfaith" bill. "Being good stewards of the environment" is one I already have, and grace/forgiveness is another one (I'm eager to read John 8:1-11 for this one, one of my favorite New Testament passages). If anyone has any other ideas for themes, and especially if anyone knows good scripture to cite from Hindu, Buddhist, or Muslim traditions that could fit one of the topics I or someone else mentions that'd be cool as gently caress. I have a passing familiarity with all those religions and am doing some more homework on them, but the depth of scripture is pretty deep and I'd be grateful to anyone who could point me in the direction of things to cite that include some universal themes for everyone. Do you have any nordic heathen kids?
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May 18, 2023 20:57
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Keromaru5 posted:I don't see why it's that strange to consider. We're talking about someone who also had a peaceful nap on a boat during a storm, and told the storm to calm down. For one thing, the scourge is only mentioned in the Gospel of John, where the Cleansing of the Temple is at the start of Jesus' career; it just says he "drove them out," and specifically mentions the livestock, not that he actually hurt anybody. If he did (as Pope Francis once pointed out), they could have arrested him then and there, instead of waiting until three years later. Yes, but that required Christ to be asleep. Whipping someone whilst completely placid is incongruous to the level of humour. And if we get to just say "well no it meant something completely different and not either what was written or how it was interpreted later". Whose to say they didn't try? Christ may just have wandered away, it's not as if there is a police force at the time to investigate. Also I think Jesus talks about being "slow to anger" not "bereft of anger", he commands his followers to, metaphorically according to most interpretations, mutilate themselves if something causes them to sin. Christ was less violent, according to most people, than the surrounding time period but I see nothing to suggest He didn't feel anger. Of course it is. What makes it righteous is the reasons it was done for and the context it's done in. Blowing up a man in a car is bad, but if the person is part of a government trying to commit widespread cultural destruction and destruction of your people, is it not valid or explicable? e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Luis_Carrero_Blanco And If we are saying "gently caress All Gurus" then I would like to start with the ones that say "gently caress all Gurus". Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 21:01 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 20:58
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https://www.academia.edu/1563662/Violence_Nonviolence_and_the_Temple_Incident_in_John_2_13_15?show_app_store_popup=true
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May 18, 2023 21:36
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Gaius Marius posted:https://www.academia.edu/1563662/Violence_Nonviolence_and_the_Temple_Incident_in_John_2_13_15?show_app_store_popup=true Several things, first off do you believe that a text can only be read one way "correctly" because this appears to be the persons conjecture here. For second are we just declaring that things that seem improbable to have happened in the bible because "surely Jesus would have been overwhelmed by the money changers" cannot have happened. If so might I gesture to the entirety of The Resurrection as an unlikely occurrence and perhaps it should be read as metaphor. “Our Lord did not do that; he only spoke words to the people, saying, ‘Take that from here,’ and overturned the tables. But he drove out the bulls and sheep with the blows of his whip.” This seems to be based on a quite different reading than the actual text. If we have to parse every word very carefully to come to a reading that is very much the opposite the one of what is actually written down, then I don't think you can say that your interpretation is completely correct. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 22:37 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 22:34
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Josef bugman posted:Also I think Jesus talks about being "slow to anger" not "bereft of anger", he commands his followers to, metaphorically according to most interpretations, mutilate themselves if something causes them to sin. Christ was less violent, according to most people, than the surrounding time period but I see nothing to suggest He didn't feel anger. Sure, Jesus does show irritation with his disciples, and powerful condemnation of the Pharisees. But he also scolded Peter for violently defending him; and he prayed for his executioners' forgiveness. It's that example the Apostles ultimately followed. quote:Of course it is. What makes it righteous is the reasons it was done for and the context it's done in. Blowing up a man in a car is bad, but if the person is part of a government trying to commit widespread cultural destruction and destruction of your people, is it not valid or explicable? e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Luis_Carrero_Blanco
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May 18, 2023 22:34
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Keromaru5 posted:Sure, Jesus does show irritation with his disciples, and powerful condemnation of the Pharisees. But he also scolded Peter for violently defending him; and he prayed for his executioners' forgiveness. It's that example the Apostles ultimately followed. Personally going to argue that the integration and reconciliation of Christianity with the Roman Empire is what made it what it is today in many ways, and I do not think that can always be said to be a good thing. Keromaru5 posted:But then, this veers close to "the ends justify the means," which I just don't think is compatible with following Jesus at all. Jesus called us to be martyrs, not killers. You say this and yet followers of Christ kill all the time. It's just trying to finagle your interpretation of Faith to be the true one. But there isn't a true one. Is not the man who said "Slay them all, God will recognise his own" just as much a Christian as you are? I'd also argue that where you think "the end justifies the means" is a matter of drawing a line in a particular place and interpreting it. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 22:47 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 22:44
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yea i dont think it would be remotely possible for christianity to be the massive global religion it is today, formally enshrined in power in countries on just about every continent, if christians actually avoided violence.
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May 18, 2023 22:56
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Earwicker posted:yea i dont think it would be remotely possible for christianity to be the massive global religion it is today, formally enshrined in power in countries on just about every continent, if christians actually avoided violence. Undoubtedly. Christianity was 100% spread by the sword, by th Roman Empire and then by Charlamagne, at least these are what I've been told are the keys to its supremacy. Assuming the book I read is accurate and I'm remembering right, those Frankish or Germanic tribes originally converted to win in battle. People all over and of all faiths have always admired conquerors. Ever notice that? It's fascinating to me. Augustine might have his story about reproving Alexander the Great but Alexander was absolutely a celebrated figure in European history, to say nothing of the aforementioned Charlamagne. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 23:37 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 23:35
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I'm not sure it's big in the Eastern traditions, although I know Ashoka is held in pretty good regard
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May 18, 2023 23:50
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NikkolasKing posted:Undoubtedly. Christianity was 100% spread by the sword, by th Roman Empire and then by Charlamagne, at least these are what I've been told are the keys to its supremacy. Assuming the book I read is accurate and I'm remembering right, those Frankish or Germanic tribes originally converted to win in battle. that was how it was initially spread through europe. it was spread throughout the world later by the spanish, british, french, dutch, russian, portuguese, and american empires, who all continued to spread the religion by the sword (well, gun at that point) in their colonies.
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May 18, 2023 23:51
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Nessus posted:I'm not sure it's big in the Eastern traditions, although I know Ashoka is held in pretty good regard But not for conquering
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May 18, 2023 23:51
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Virgil Vox posted:But not for conquering
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May 18, 2023 23:56
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i think it is interesting that two of the largest spread-by-violent-empire religions are called "Abrahamic" while the actual religion of Abraham, for most its history, is rather pointedly the opposite.
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May 19, 2023 00:34
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I mean there's an argument for 'using religion as an excuse to do all the lovely territorial power-grabbing you were going to do anyway' being closer to the truth, considering - as someone pointed out, I know - that even Buddhism has been used as a tool of violent repression in the past. But I don't really have the energy to argue Christianity, the historical world force, as against Christianity, the religion. So I dunno. This thread has gotten a bit high-flown for me lately, I hardly ever know what anyone's talking about.
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May 19, 2023 00:52
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This is Niebuhr from the eighties on the subject: “Religion is very easily used to obscure rather than to reveal the primitive forces which control so much of human action. Religion without a constantly replenished force of penitence easily becomes a romance which brutal men use to hide the real sources of their actions from themselves and from others. That is why romantic religion is dangerous and that is why liberal religion is not now an effective agent of moral redemption in our contemporary society. Premature confidence in human virtue is on the same level with premature confidence in human history. In fact, they come to one and the same thing. Man is nature and yet the child of God. History is nature and yet the dominion of God’s will. But the nature in man and in history is the stuff with which moral purpose in man and in God must work. It is the business of true religion to preach judgment without reducing man to despair and to preach hope without tempting him to complacency. That double purpose can best be accomplished by a rigorous analysis which shows the sharp distinction between the real and the ideal and by vigorous action which reveals the potency and the potentialities of the moral will.”
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May 19, 2023 00:56
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HopperUK posted:I mean there's an argument for 'using religion as an excuse to do all the lovely territorial power-grabbing you were going to do anyway' being closer to the truth, considering - as someone pointed out, I know - that even Buddhism has been used as a tool of violent repression in the past. But I don't really have the energy to argue Christianity, the historical world force, as against Christianity, the religion. So I dunno. This thread has gotten a bit high-flown for me lately, I hardly ever know what anyone's talking about.
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May 19, 2023 01:40
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The talk of ends justify the means and stuff reminds me of a story I read in a book on Buddhism a long time ago now. If I'm remembering it right, somebody was aboutto commit murder. To save this person from the bad karma, the Buddhist killed him, thereby taking all the bad karma on themselves and saving the would-be-murder from a bad rebirth.
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May 19, 2023 04:27
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NikkolasKing posted:The talk of ends justify the means and stuff reminds me of a story I read in a book on Buddhism a long time ago now. If I'm remembering it right, somebody was aboutto commit murder. To save this person from the bad karma, the Buddhist killed him, thereby taking all the bad karma on themselves and saving the would-be-murder from a bad rebirth. (Some poo poo the Buddha did in a past life) (Some poo poo the Buddha did in the life we know directly) (How the two interconnect) The one I mentioned went something like: In a past life, the Buddha was the king of a big flock of geese, and Ananda was his general. When the flock landed, the Buddha was caught in a snare, but he kept silent until the other geese had eaten plenty of whatever geese eat, and only then did he  to get everyone to bail. His general came to try to get him out of the snare, but the hunter got there; the general goose plead for king goose's life, and the Hunter was like "holy poo poo, a talking goose. Alright, alright." In the life we knew, it was the elephant. I do not recall the details of that Jataka tale but I think it was something like he was the captain of a ship and there was a murderer who was going to kill everyone on the ship and then perhaps himself, and he did the killing himself and did the time in the hell realms for it.
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May 19, 2023 04:52
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Nessus posted:I think we're mostly just shooting the breeze. 
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May 19, 2023 07:09
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Look, we have the internet. Has there ever been a good and noble goal that hasn't been abused as cover for evil poo poo? I get the double whammy of that being a socialist Catholic 
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May 19, 2023 08:57
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JcDent posted:Look, we have the internet. Has there ever been a good and noble goal that hasn't been abused as cover for evil poo poo? oh saaame
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May 19, 2023 12:09
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For a moment there I misread the above as "socialist kabbalah" and I was like "woah"... Also I found a venue that has open mic on Thursdays and Fridays.
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May 19, 2023 12:39
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HopperUK posted:But I don't really have the energy to argue Christianity, the historical world force, as against Christianity, the religion. why do you think these are separate things? and why is Christianity only a "historical" world force and not a current one? various Christian organizations and churches still hold an immense amount of political power all over the globe.
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May 19, 2023 16:50
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Earwicker posted:why do you think these are separate things? and why is Christianity only a "historical" world force and not a current one? various Christian organizations and churches still hold an immense amount of political power all over the globe. There's a difference between Christianity, the institutions both historical and present that influence the way people live their lives, and Christianity, the faith regarding the teachings of Jesus Christ. Obviously they're interconnected subjects but the former is more the domain of history and political science and what have you as opposed to the latter which is more based on theology and philosophy.
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May 19, 2023 16:58
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quiggy posted:There's a difference between Christianity, the institutions both historical and present that influence the way people live their lives, and Christianity, the faith regarding the teachings of Jesus Christ. Obviously they're interconnected subjects but the former is more the domain of history and political science and what have you as opposed to the latter which is more based on theology and philosophy. my trouble with this is that people tend to frame the latter as peaceful and generally against violence, while the former literally only exists in the form it does, and only has the power it does, because of violence. the vast majority of people in the world who have even heard of Jesus and his teachings, have only heard of him because of the historical force of Christianity and their use of violence and oppression to spread those teachings. if it hadn't been for that use of force, for its adoption by power structures from the Roman to the British Empire and so many more, the religion would have most likely stayed in the Middle East and Mediterranean. who knows to what extent it would even still be around today. it's like, there kind of a huge gap between those teachings and the way those teachings are spread around the world, and to be really honest emphasizing the difference between these "two" Christianities seems kind of like a way of denying responsibility. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 17:31 on May 19, 2023 |
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May 19, 2023 17:28
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Yeah separating the faith as something purer than the humans it influences just let's you No True Scotsman away everything you personally dislike that has happened in the name of the faith
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May 19, 2023 17:34
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Earwicker posted:my trouble with this is that people tend to frame the latter as peaceful and generally against violence, while the former literally only exists in the form it does, and only has the power it does, because of violence. Oh totally, which is why I pointed out that they're interconnected subjects (believe me, I have enough Christianity-based religious trauma in my background to know that Christianity as a thing practiced cannot be wholly divorced from Christianity an abstract set of beliefs and principles). But I think Hopper's point was that you can treat them independently when analyzing certain aspects of the faith writ large and it's not necessarily wrong to do that.
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May 19, 2023 17:39
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