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LuiCypher posted:Eh, it's not a video game-style buff. Any martial artist can tell you what it's like to be "in the zone", aka that heightened state of focus and awareness that anticipates the Black Flash and how once you're in it you can pull off poo poo you never even thought possible. JJK has a not-insignificant amount of martial arts in it (quite a few characters even specialize in it!) and so that's also a concept that needs very little explanation to a domestic audience. I mean sure but it says 120% on the page and it explicitly does ^2.5 damage. the concept whatever sure (we all know what flow is lol) but the way gege writes it in the narration leans on power levels weirdly. He does the same thing in 223 where he's like "with chanting utahime used 120% of her power!! And when gojo did it with hollow purple it made it a 200% hollow purple!!!!" I just find it a weird and kind of stupefying way to frame things. e: and look obviously it's in the tradition of the kaioken and gege has explicitly been like "I'm bad at math and it sounds cool". But no one ever tries to sell you on the rigor and deep planning of DBZ's combat framework. I think for me it's precisely because gege is capable of writing engaging fights without any of this stuff that I roll my eyes so hard at it. I think JJK is very interesting when characters are straightforwardly engaging with each other and very lame when "being the strongest" gets treated like a power scaling thing and there's an implied level of quantification. Sukuna and Gojo trying to outmaneuver and overpower each other is cool, but "wow sukuna tanked a 200% hollow purple!" is not. that means nothing. something about the way gege writes some of it strips all mysticism or interest out of it for me, even if you can analogize some of it back to fighting "normally". like yeah I get it if sukuna's ability to throw a million jabs and also stiff-arm you while also planting his feet and winding up for a haymaker is an obstacle our heroes must overcome, that's great. adding numbers to the haymaker just muddles it up. Valentin fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Feb 2, 2024 |
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Feb 2, 2024 21:23
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:Not being japanese, I wouldn’t be surprised if hand gestures/chants are considered such basic aesthetic elements of japanese mysticism that gege didn’t feel the need to explain them to an audience that probably already was used to the idea, like how if you’re telling a story about cowboys in America you don’t ever feel the need to explain why everyone is wearing hats and has guns. You still need to know or see whether the cowboy has to pull the trigger to shoot the gun or not though. I think chants in JJK are fine, if not being pushed in an entirely consistent manner, but the question was not whether chants are an aesthetic element of the universe but whether they are required to use abilities and, if not, whether they had any beneficial effect to their user.
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Feb 2, 2024 21:42
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I always assumed binding vows to be the catch-all for any unusual things you see in the fights. Explaining your techniques, chanting, hand signs, all just various binding vows you make to get a little more oomph out of your cursed energy output
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Feb 2, 2024 22:03
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Also a good excuse to draw your characters doing cool and different things
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Feb 2, 2024 22:21
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Valentin posted:yeah the shift was not "oh there are chants and hand signs?" it's the part where like black flash they provide a video game style buff You get me  wedgie deliverer posted:Also a good excuse to draw your characters doing cool and different things Jujustu Kaisen was, at one point, a manga that prided itself on a strong internal consistency and understandability. Hence why something like black flash provides a percentage based buff instead of just "making you stronger" - because the author decided very early that when characters fight, there is rational and defined expectation on how things will go. The benefit of a tight system is that you can get things like Meimei's extremely technical fight with the smallpox diety. It was a major selling point that got a lot of people into the manga itself, in the earlier days. But you're right, in a way; your perspective of "idk it's cool for them to do different stuff" is much closer to how Gege is treating the manga at this point, so fair enough. The classic power system stopped mattering a while ago (when was the last time that special grade meant anything), and I'm pretty convinced the only reason that binding vows have stayed so heavily structural to the work is that they're basically "calvinball with a sheen of respectability". They work well enough, and some fights, like the "old dude who only gets hurt from tiny punches" are fun specifically because it's about unwinding the binding vow, strategically. That being said the entire concept of a binding vow between sorcerers, in JJK, is essentially a narrative way to enforce promises and less about the punishments of voiding them, so whatever. Really looking forward to next week, lets go Yuta  every shonen has the inevitable "his technique is that he copies techniques!" guy, but Yuta is fun. UnderFreddy posted:special grade still means the same stuff it's always meant? What makes you say otherwise? It just hasn't mattered in absolutely forever, but there was a time it was pretty essential to understanding the relative abilities of the cast. The Grading system in general though, to be fair, is kind of a relic; it figured prominently into the manga Gege wanted to make originally, before he detonated his plans sometime around the Shibuya chapters and went in a different direction. Once he decided that Jujutsu society was something he didn't care about developing further, the grading system was arguably useless at that point regardless. Taima fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Feb 3, 2024 |
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Feb 3, 2024 20:26
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special grade still means the same stuff it's always meant? What makes you say otherwise?
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Feb 3, 2024 20:34
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I'm gonna be real with you, everything is still the same as it was and I think imagining a different true version of the manga the author destroyed to go a different way because you don't like parts of the current arc is some silly delusional poo poo.
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Feb 3, 2024 20:40
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That's ok e: fwiw I don't think there is some conspiracy here; I just think weekly serialization ended up being too much, the Jujutsu society got scoped way out of control, and he just didn't wish to continue with it  I'm a programmer, I know very well about scope creep! haha.He reduced the scope by like 90% to make the thing easier to write, there's ultimately nothing wrong with that and I still like it. Just so happens I loved it, before, but I still think it's easily one of the best mangas running. Honest question, what about, say, Kashimo? What about the stuff that Hikari gets up to (basically invcincible) what about Uruame using ice to freeze 20 of the top sorcerers in the world at the end of Shibuya, ya know? Oh also for the record I think Gakuganji was considered special grade because of his cursed corpses, before he was unceremoniously killed offscreen by an old guy who uses dope guitar licks to kill people (funny enough in the new Death Stranding 2 trailer, the boss literally has this exact same gimmick, so random) I just think that sorcerer Grades are important to the classic battle shonen that JJK started as and is not something that effectively matters at this point. Taima fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Feb 3, 2024 |
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Feb 3, 2024 20:41
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Special Grade has always been the top 5 sorcerers (Gojo, Geto, Yuki, Yota and Sukuna) and the curses deemed too strong for any one Grade 1 sorcerer to confidently take down. Grade 1 sorcerers are the "peak" sorcerers that don't have broken abilities like the above. Their relative power varies but this is the true highest rank, and as the name implies Special is a categorization for sorcerers too abnormally powerful to reasonably fit in here. Most of the cast at this point is formally or informally Grade 1 since anyone weaker has been weeded out by the plot. Grade 2 is for sorcerers considered just below the above in their mastery of jujutsu. Grades 3 and 4 never really mattered.
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Feb 3, 2024 20:53
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Taima posted:Oh also for the record I think Gakuganji was considered special grade because of his cursed corpses, before he was unceremoniously killed offscreen by an old guy who uses a guitar licks to kill people (funny enough the new Death Stranding 2 trailer, the boss literally has this exact same gimmick) Minor correction, but you're talking about principal Yaga, Gakuganji is the guitar guy.
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Feb 3, 2024 21:03
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Taima posted:Honest question, what about, say, Kashimo? What about the stuff that Hikari gets up to (basically invcincible) what about Uruame using ice to freeze 20 of the top sorcerers in the world at the end of Shibuya, ya know? Grade 1. Only Kashimo has true Special Grade chops and only while his one-time, time-limited CT is active. Taima posted:Oh also for the record I think Gakuganji was considered special grade because of his cursed corpses, before he was unceremoniously killed offscreen by an old guy who uses dope guitar licks to kill people (funny enough in the new Death Stranding 2 trailer, the boss literally has this exact same gimmick, so random) You mean Yaga, and no, he was Grade 1. He was contemplated for Special Grade due to the potential to create endless subservient cursed corpses in the style of Panda, but he neither received the classification nor was he obviously up to par with the above mentioned in terms of direct combat prowess. Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Feb 3, 2024 |
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Feb 3, 2024 21:03
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:Minor correction, but you're talking about principal Yaga, Gakuganji is the guitar guy.  Haha seriously though you are right thanks Conspiratiorist posted:Grade 1. Fair enough. I am surprised you think that about Kashimo though; he is the undefeated champion of his era just like Sukuna, even though Sukuna is ultimately stronger, and he never once used his curse technique in that era. If that poo poo ain't special grade idk what is, but yeah- his CT form, I assume, could beat anyone but Sukuna or Gojo. Kashimo got done insanely dirty, but he was written into a narrative corner because he would only fight Sukuna. Like, imagine if he was in that fight against the 3 sorcerers like Yuta was, the fight with the 3 way domain expansion- what if he used his CT for that fight and went out guns blazing?  Ah, what could have been with Kashimo. What an absolute legend. I think Kashimo v Hakari is my favorite fight in the manga. The most underrated fight imo is Megumi vs Reggie. Speaking of which, I wonder if Megumi will ever complete his foreshadowed Giant Skeleton domain that happened in that fight (er I think it was that fight?) Conspiratiorist posted:You mean Yaga, and no, he was Grade 1. He was contemplated for Special Grade due to the potential to create endless subservient cursed corpses in the style of Panda, but he neither received the classification nor was he obviously up to par with the above mentioned in terms of direct combat prowess. Ah word good shout! Taima fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Feb 3, 2024 |
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Feb 3, 2024 21:04
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I thought special grade was reserved for: 1. Cursed Spirits that a Grade 1 sorcerer can't handle alone 2. Sorcerers who have mastered a domain 3. Sorcerers with techniques that are genuinely one-of-a-kind busted or useful. Takaba doesn't have a domain but I think he'd be special grade because he's a reality bender.
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Feb 3, 2024 22:28
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Yaga could be special grade because his ability can topple nations, which is one of the criteria. It doesnt matter if he isn't a super combat genius.
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Feb 3, 2024 22:53
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Fabricated posted:I thought special grade was reserved for: A Special Grade Curse is any that a Grade 1 Sorcerer would not be able to reliably defeat. A Special Grade Sorcerer is a Sorcerer that could topple a country by themselves.
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Feb 3, 2024 22:54
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MonsterEnvy posted:A Special Grade Curse is any that a Grade 1 Sorcerer would not be able to reliably defeat. This is the answer. Special grade is not necessarily tied to combat power, because they were considering the Principal for this classification solely on the fact that he could potentially make an army ZenMasterBullshit posted:I'm gonna be real with you, everything is still the same as it was and I think imagining a different true version of the manga the author destroyed to go a different way because you don't like parts of the current arc is some silly delusional poo poo. Agreed , can we stop doing this, it's resulting in multiple long posts that essentially boil down to fanfiction.
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Feb 4, 2024 00:29
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Taima posted:Jujustu Kaisen was, at one point, a manga that prided itself on a strong internal consistency and understandability. Was it, though?
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Feb 4, 2024 01:24
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So we can all agree that the classifications haven't changed and Taima is just a moron again
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Feb 4, 2024 03:36
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The only point of the classifications was to send sorcerors on missions that were too easy to be dangerous for them. If it were some super scientific system they wouldn't have stuffed 99% of sorcerors into three ranks and would have used something with more granularity.
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Feb 4, 2024 04:07
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Yeah the reason most Sorcerers we know want to become Grade 1s is because it offers a bigger pay check. And the reason Grade 1 requires a bunch of steps to reach is because Jujutsu Society doesn’t want Sorcerers getting killed taking jobs they can’t handle.
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Feb 4, 2024 10:26
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Grade 1s are supposed to represent the peak as far as the modern jujujutsu grading system goes. You’re supposed to ignore special grades since they’re considered anomalies. Grade 2s are supposed to be the average “competent” sorcerer.
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Feb 4, 2024 14:15
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Maki obliterated 11 grade 1 sorcerers when she destroyed the Zenin's. Just a fun fact.
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Feb 4, 2024 14:48
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Here honestly I was taking it as worldbuilding about how society is rather antiquated because it feels like the lower grades are mostly for training, and most of the vaguely competent people from the current generation can probably expect to hit Grade 1. That the very fact that special grade curses are getting flung around like candy demonstrates that they desperately need to adjust their scale, but can’t due to tradition. The fact that the Prison curse, Jogo, and Sakuna all get the same rank is indicative of how absolutely unequipped to handle modern times Jujutsu society is.
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Feb 4, 2024 15:01
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UnderFreddy posted:So we can all agree that the classifications haven't changed and Taima is just a moron again Why are you so mad? I said it doesn't matter / is not coherent anymore in the same way, not that it changed. It simply doesn't matter anymore, because it was thrown away like so much else was in the mid-phase where most of the manga was abandoned for small scale fighting in nowhere land. We're talking about a manga for teenagers where the author changed it from a real story to action figures banging around like idiots but yeah lets get rude about it, fer sure. We're just talking here dude. It's just a fun, mindless manga, it's enjoyable. Let's talk about it, or don't, that's fine too. Nuebot posted:Was it, though? Yeah, it was. That's just my opinion though, please don't get mad, we're just talking about a manga. No Wave posted:The only point of the classifications was to send sorcerors on missions that were too easy to be dangerous for them. If it were some super scientific system they wouldn't have stuffed 99% of sorcerors into three ranks and would have used something with more granularity. Yeah that's pretty much where I'm at. There was a manga that centered around a classification system that had to do with going on missions and a Jujutsu society. And the Sukuna fingers were obviously supposed to be an aspirational goal that followed a much more typical battle shonen structure, which would also provide steady buffs for Yuji that allowed organic scaling with him as the main character. The dueling Kyoto/JJ High sister school rivalry is an obvious lead-in here; it was completely and utterly abandoned when the overall structure was abandoned, which is why we extremely unceremoniously never heard about Kyoto again and Mechamaru was like "uh yeah I told them all to... leave" unless we're supposed to believe that was always the plan, to make tons of characters that get sidelined almost immediately Remember when the entire story was that the crew went on geographically relevant missions to fight curses in an extremely normal battle shonen structure? I don't either. That all made sense until it all got blown up for WWE Kaisen, so the definitions of the grading and such are very murky at this point, that's my point. Taima fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Feb 4, 2024 |
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Feb 4, 2024 15:03
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Taima posted:There was a manga that centered around a classification system that had to do with going on missions and a Jujutsu society. Why do you keep doing this?
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Feb 4, 2024 16:09
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incredibly mad that the manga didn't follow the boring by-the-numbers formula I had made up in my head
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Feb 4, 2024 16:18
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Legend of Ruina posted:Here honestly I was taking it as worldbuilding about how society is rather antiquated because it feels like the lower grades are mostly for training, and most of the vaguely competent people from the current generation can probably expect to hit Grade 1. The real issues is that Gojo's birth and Sukna's fingers have been juicing the level of cursed spirits in general and specifically. On top of that you have people like Geto and Kenjaku scouring Japan and even the world for more special grades to just drag out in a moment's notice. I think the classification system is fine but these are abnormal circumstances which only go to show that Jujutsu High doesn't have the manpower to truly deal with apocalypse level situations.
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Feb 4, 2024 16:25
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I support whatever changes to structure and storytelling the manga went through in order to deliver to us Kenjaku vs Takaba
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Feb 4, 2024 16:26
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mabels big day posted:I support whatever changes to structure and storytelling the manga went through in order to deliver to us Kenjaku vs Takaba Legitimately one of my new favorite fights in Shonen. That one chapter opening with Kenjaku summoning this badass special grade curse only for it to get splatted by a truck is so good lol.
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Feb 4, 2024 17:22
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CharlestonJew posted:incredibly mad that the manga didn't follow the boring by-the-numbers formula I had made up in my head
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Feb 4, 2024 17:34
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Official translation this week made things make a lot more sense to me than the others imo
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Feb 4, 2024 17:53
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The Notorious ZSB posted:Official translation this week made things make a lot more sense to me than the others imo I've basically reverted to primarily using officials. there's been a lot of confusion over the past few months
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Feb 4, 2024 17:57
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Electric Phantasm posted:Legitimately one of my new favorite fights in Shonen. That one chapter opening with Kenjaku summoning this badass special grade curse only for it to get splatted by a truck is so good lol. So peak that the finale is untranslatable (complementary)
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Feb 4, 2024 18:19
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I usually prefer the TCB scanlation but it was a bit easier to grok Kenjaku's dialogue in the official this week. Regarding the grading discussion, I wonder who could have even stopped Jogo 1v1 besides Gojo and Sukuna. Yuta probably could albeit with difficulty, Tsukumo probably had the firepower but Jogo's speed feels like a bad matchup, and I really doubt that even both Zenin Special Grade 1 projection sorcerers would have been able to do much. Current Maki vs Jogo would have been a really cool fight. That's pretty much it. I kinda like that JJK has quite a few antagonists who strictly in terms of power could easily have made it to this final arc of the manga, this isn't a 1000 chapter epic like OP but Gege has really handled the power scaling well, no matter what other complaints one might have about the plot and structure of the manga.
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Feb 4, 2024 18:54
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Nuebot posted:Was it, though? The manga had, on multiple occasions, pages inserted in which the author responded to questions from fans on how certain techniques worked exactly, sometimes even accompanied by mathematical explanations. Jump GIGA Summer 2021 even included something called 'Abyss Math Courses' with one of JJK's editors and two researchers from the Riken institute going into deep (mathematical) detail of different character's abilities: https://twitter.com/WSJ_manga/status/1419317666716819463/photo/2 Apparently these two researchers also reviewed the in-manga explanation of abilities of at least Vol. 14 and 15, so it seems like at least some importance was placed on things making sense. I can't vouch for the translation, and it seems a bit weird at some points, but there is one up: https://sashisu.tumblr.com/post/658102258382274560. At the start of the interview, the editor states quote:In Jujutsu Kaisen, “how do they fight under established constraint” is one of the fun of the battle. And due of it, math is considered. So I would say that, yes, consistency and understandability seemed like it was pretty important at some point.
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Feb 4, 2024 20:00
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Tosk posted:I usually prefer the TCB scanlation but it was a bit easier to grok Kenjaku's dialogue in the official this week.
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Feb 4, 2024 20:08
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Sorcerer grades are based on “what can you handle” but also politics because Maki is still technically a grade 4, while Noritoshi Kamo is grade 1. Gege wrote it this way on purpose. This system of categorization isn’t good at doing its job. E: unrelated but it looks like some manga leakers got arrested
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Feb 4, 2024 21:50
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Brought To You By posted:All the disaster-grade are going to be nearly impossible to beat 1v1 for most characters. But Jogo would absolutely blitz people to death and leave a charred corpse and there isn't much else anyone could do to stop him. The only reason Sukuna fought Jojo is because Gege realised if he left him in the story, he just straight up wipes the cast out as they were in Shibuya. He decimated the city by himself, no other sorcerer they deployed was touching him. Speaking of the Shibuya arc I really liked how you felt the consequences of Gojo being sealed immediately. It really hammered home how much he tipped the scales toward balance.
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Feb 5, 2024 01:41
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CharlestonJew posted:incredibly mad that the manga didn't follow the boring by-the-numbers formula I had made up in my head No, it was clearly leaning into the by-the-numbers formula until Shibuya. You can debate if ditching it was the plan all along to make for more of a shock, or a from-the-hip move, but the fingers, the ranks, the rival cast, that's all a buildup intended to make the veteran reader go "Right, I know how this works from here". You saw the same thing in Chainsaw Man with the Gun Devil pieces and the meetup with Division 4. Now, Chainsaw Man was clearly doing it to drop the ground out from under the reader, while the near-pointless clusterfuck that was the Culling Games suggests that Gege's plans were less solid, but there's nothing unreasonable about recognizing that the manga was intentionally giving the impression of a pretty standard formula, then it juked away, and pretending that the pattern didn't exist doesn't make the manga look any better.
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Feb 5, 2024 01:54
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Asuron posted:The only reason Sukuna fought Jojo is because Gege realised if he left him in the story, he just straight up wipes the cast out as they were in Shibuya. He decimated the city by himself, no other sorcerer they deployed was touching him. It's really good Jogo and Hanami look like Bebop and Rocksteady when facing off against Gojo and then when Jogo casually wipes out Maki, Nanami, and Naobito he looks likes the most stone cold killer ever. It's a neat representation of the power balance going on there.
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Feb 5, 2024 02:43
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