|
GATOS Y VATOS posted:The thing is that the Federation's Prime Directive specifically states that if you find a pre-warp species that unfortunately are about to become extinct due to a natural disaster or something, they are just supposed to let the species die out lest they become 'contaminated' by having come in contact with a hyper-advanced civilization because that's just the natural order of things (see the TNG episode where Data started communicating with an alien girl on a pre-warp planet that was about to get eaten by it's own volcanos and Picard said "Welp, sucks to be them. We could save the planet but that's against the rules"). The UFP is inherently a smug ethno-state that claim they are morally superior for letting people die for reasons of 'purity'. There's this weird subtext in some TNG-era scripts where 'evolution' and 'fate' are conceptually linked. In this sense, saving a civilization from being wiped out is interfering with its destiny and thus verboten. The stars have written their fate, who are we to intervene? then there's the SNW episode where a civilization had adapted itself to life after an asteroid hit and they just decided to remove the asteroid after the fact. which seems like a huge prime directive violation in any sense. i guess its the 'kirk exception' where you're allowed to judo-chop a computer if you think it violated the prime directive first. TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 16:26 on May 3, 2024 |
#
?
May 3, 2024 16:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 16:07 |
|
|
John Wick of Dogs posted:Is Hugh going to turn out to be a progenitor? I think they're going to do something like that Got excited for a minute thinking that discovery resurrected Hugh after he was unceremoniously disposed of in Picard S1, but then I remembered it's just Dr. Culber's first name 
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 19:23
|
|
|
I don't know, I was just extremely bored by this episode It didn't help that almost everything on the planet was brown or grey and yes I also had the thought that the Denobulans were the ones who originally violated the Prime Directive, so at this point the Disco crew was just having to do their cleanup.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 20:21
|
|
|
TheDeadlyShoe posted:There's this weird subtext in some TNG-era scripts where 'evolution' and 'fate' are conceptually linked. In this sense, saving a civilization from being wiped out is interfering with its destiny and thus verboten. The stars have written their fate, who are we to intervene?
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 20:36
|
|
|
I think the Denobulans put those towers up before they were even federation members so they weren't really violating anything.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 20:46
|
|
|
John Wick of Dogs posted:I think the Denobulans put those towers up before they were even federation members so they weren't really violating anything. No that doesn’t make sense—the Denobulan scientist who designed them was part of the team that investigated the Progenitor tech in the 2370s.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 20:53
|
|
|
Apollodorus posted:No that doesn’t make sense—the Denobulan scientist who designed them was part of the team that investigated the Progenitor tech in the 2370s. I didn't think he designed those towers, he was just aware of them and knew them as a reason people need to be careful with technology and consequences.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 20:57
|
|
|
GATOS Y VATOS posted:The thing is that the Federation's Prime Directive specifically states that if you find a pre-warp species that unfortunately are about to become extinct due to a natural disaster or something, they are just supposed to let the species die out lest they become 'contaminated' by having come in contact with a hyper-advanced civilization because that's just the natural order of things (see the TNG episode where Data started communicating with an alien girl on a pre-warp planet that was about to get eaten by it's own volcanos and Picard said "Welp, sucks to be them. We could save the planet but that's against the rules"). The UFP is inherently a smug ethno-state that claim they are morally superior for letting people die for reasons of 'purity'. Burnham comes from the 23rd century where they're willing to burn out a starship's warp drive to try and save a pre-warp civilization about to be annihilated by a giant asteroid, and also willing to provide advanced-by-local-standards arms to locals in proportion to the arms provided to the locals' competitors by the Klingons, so it's still consistent with ~~*~canon~*~~ even if the TNG writers had a completely ridiculous take on the Prime Directive.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 22:15
|
|
|
There's something potentially interesting about them going in on the conflict of the 23rd century attitude towards the prime directive vs. the 32nd century attitude, but the only two 32nd century characters in the main cast are Rayner and Adira and I feel like Rayner would be fine with saving Tilly and the local to further the mission and Adira would be too cowed by Burnham to disagree They'd need to rope the Admiral or the president in somehow and at that point it's a different story altogether
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 22:23
|
|
|
Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Burnham comes from the 23rd century where they're willing to burn out a starship's warp drive to try and save a pre-warp civilization about to be annihilated by a giant asteroid, and also willing to provide advanced-by-local-standards arms to locals in proportion to the arms provided to the locals' competitors by the Klingons, so it's still consistent with ~~*~canon~*~~ even if the TNG writers had a completely ridiculous take on the Prime Directive. Oh for sure! Also this episode proves that if the Denoblian scientist followed the prime directive then this planet would be a lifeless husk.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 22:23
|
|
|
I think the TNG era went too far with the prime directive. "These guys haven't achieved warp drive, let them die." Even if it's a somewhat advanced species that is actively calling out into the void for help, ignore them. They need a better metric for determining if a race is capable of dealing with meeting aliens. Creating a warp drive is definitely a useful metric for stopping in to say hello to determine what is up to make sure those people don't start loving up the local neighborhood and oppressing neighboring worlds with life on them. But there's still room for "Hey, we noticed your planet is hosed in a way that you can't do anything about, but we can help. We can't give you access to our technology, but we can help you in this one case. Then, when you're ready to step into the galaxy, we'll be around to guide you." But just making a warp drive doesn't mean anything. Look at Earth, it's a post apocalyptic wasteland and Zefram Cochrane is just loving around in a missile silo and builds a rudimentary warp drive. The planet overall is not ready for what comes next.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 22:31
|
|
|
Cojawfee posted:I think the TNG era went too far with the prime directive. "These guys haven't achieved warp drive, let them die." Even if it's a somewhat advanced species that is actively calling out into the void for help, ignore them. They need a better metric for determining if a race is capable of dealing with meeting aliens. As the great Jack O'Neill said (paraphrased) it doesn't really matter if we're ready for space, we are out there now and there's no turning back. The Orville's criteria for first contact differed from the federation as well, theirs was of a planet had developed interstellar communications. If they couldn't fly out of their solar system that didn't really matter. If they can call out or send a message out, the Union sent someone for first contact to make sure they got there before a hostile party.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 22:35
|
|
|
Cojawfee posted:I think the TNG era went too far with the prime directive. "These guys haven't achieved warp drive, let them die." Even if it's a somewhat advanced species that is actively calling out into the void for help, ignore them. They need a better metric for determining if a race is capable of dealing with meeting aliens.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 22:42
|
|
|
John Wick of Dogs posted:
And this would make sense for the Federation too when planets might just be conquered by the Klingons or whatever Maybe it's easier to be hands off with worlds deep inside federation territory, but less so on the edges
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 22:43
|
|
|
John Wick of Dogs posted:Is Hugh going to turn out to be a progenitor? I think they're going to do something like that I wonder if they'll remember that Hugh is using a mushroom clone body. And if my theory that the Progenitors used the Mycelial network for their panspermia project, it would intersect with Stamets storyline
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 22:44
|
|
|
Pansporia
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 22:51
|
|
|
Apollodorus posted:No that doesn’t make sense—the Denobulan scientist who designed them was part of the team that investigated the Progenitor tech in the 2370s. To be fair, I don’t know that it’s ever been established that the Denobulans are part of the Federation, or that this particular Denobulan was a Starfleet officer at the time the weather modification towers were built (or even if they were a Starfleet officer when investigating the tech).
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 22:55
|
|
|
GATOS Y VATOS posted:The thing is that the Federation's Prime Directive specifically states that if you find a pre-warp species that unfortunately are about to become extinct due to a natural disaster or something, they are just supposed to let the species die out lest they become 'contaminated' by having come in contact with a hyper-advanced civilization because that's just the natural order of things (see the TNG episode where Data started communicating with an alien girl on a pre-warp planet that was about to get eaten by it's own volcanos and Picard said "Welp, sucks to be them. We could save the planet but that's against the rules"). The UFP is inherently a smug ethno-state that claim they are morally superior for letting people die for reasons of 'purity'. Right. I think it's likely the Denoblians think it's a bit silly is all. It's another one of those human hangups we have because we used to keep genociding ourselves. Species who don't have that as a big shameful part of their history aren't as worried about accidentally doing a cultural genocide. Even among humans (who presumably learned about gangster planet and nazi planet in school) it's a topic of debate when actually faced with pre-warp worlds in peril. Other species may look at the various ways humans have hosed things up and embrace the value "we should avoid interfering with pre-warp civilizations, and be very careful about cultural contamination if it is necessary to do so" but not the value "never interfere with pre-warp civilisations in any way." It's regrettable that some of the people started doing voluntary sacrifice. But arguably they are still better off than if all their ancestors had died choking on dust centuries ago. Meanwhile, presumably Admiral Hella Jeff is over there going "We warned you about cultural contamination bro! We told you!"
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 22:55
|
|
|
I don't know how many pre-warp societies exist within the borders of Federation Space but imo they should have hidden monitoring stations in each system at the very least. Also research teams undercover.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 23:05
|
|
|
i assume the federation has a bunch of treaties like "okay Klingons if you agree not to conquer pre-warp worlds we won't send the plucky lieutenants with a deflector dish your way. you'll also get a lifetime holodeck subscription to Blood Warrior IV: Stars of Blood. its really good we promise"
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 23:13
|
|
|
xerxus posted:I wonder if they'll remember that Hugh is using a mushroom clone body. God I would love it if the progenitors' godlike tech turned out to be just a big mycelial network teleporter they dumped a vat of their DNA into and set the destination coordinates to "Yes."
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 23:39
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:God I would love it if the progenitors' godlike tech turned out to be just a big mycelial network teleporter they dumped a vat of their DNA into and set the destination coordinates to "Yes." That would call into question their claims that they were the first and only life in the galaxy. No life here! Except this giant mycelial network. 
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2024 23:50
|
|
|
Unless they spread the network as the means of panspermia. E: in any case, in The Chase they said that life was 'in its infancy' on other worlds they seeded, so it could work either way. Their claim was that life occurred on their planet much earlier, so they evolved to intelligence before anyone else could. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 00:12 on May 4, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 4, 2024 00:09
|
|
|
Facebook Aunt posted:That would call into question their claims that they were the first and only life in the galaxy. No life here! Except this giant mycelial network. I mean, first intelligent life And it may be fair to say that mushroom space, like fluidic space, isn't really "in" the galaxy
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2024 01:02
|
|
|
I liked the part where the universal translator was classy enough to give the translated whistles a nice rhyme scheme
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2024 06:54
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:God I would love it if the progenitors' godlike tech turned out to be just a big mycelial network teleporter they dumped a vat of their DNA into and set the destination coordinates to "Yes." Teleporting being the cause of every problem, McCoy was right 
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2024 07:33
|
|
|
Falcorum posted:Teleporting being the cause of every problem, McCoy was right Progenitor #1: Okay, before I hit the button, any final last second changes we want to make? Progenitor #2: I want all the lifeforms that develop with green blood to be based on my DNA. Progenitor #1: Fine, Abitch, but we're gonna make them all nerds 
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2024 07:37
|
|
|
As a lot of the worst primary directive stuffs from TNG, is it just possible that the prime directives fine and Picard was just a real jerk.CPColin posted:I liked the part where the universal translator was classy enough to give the translated whistles a nice rhyme scheme The universal translator takes pride in it's work 
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2024 10:05
|
|
|
dr_rat posted:As a lot of the worst primary directive stuffs from TNG, is it just possible that the prime directives fine and Picard was just a real jerk. A little nanite pokes out of a guy's ear. "It's a living."
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2024 10:11
|
|
|
dr_rat posted:As a lot of the worst primary directive stuffs from TNG, is it just possible that the prime directives fine and Picard was just a real jerk. I don't think it's that Picard is a jerk. He seems to violate the prime directive when he thinks it is necessary to do so to prevent himself from having to sit idly by while a bunch of people die needlessly. I'd say the problem comes from stuffy admirals with sticks up their butts who view any violation of the prime directive to be the ultimate crime. In the TNG era at least, it is official star fleet policy that you can't interfere or interact with a pre-warp civilization for any reason.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2024 10:20
|
|
|
The only faith I have is in Kirk, the god-slayer.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2024 11:33
|
|
|
The real issue with the TNG era Prime Directive is that people constantly violate it for good reasons and yet no-one ever considers maybe modifying the order back at command or the government. It exists to provide a dilemma and isn't considered further than that point. Which also means the Federation ends up with a law captains violate constantly (again, generally with very good reason, allowing everyone to die to nuclear volcanoes or whatever wouldn't be good) but never considers adding a nuclear volcano provision to it, so it's both ineffective as law and mostly stupid in its implementation.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2024 12:43
|
|
|
Night10194 posted:The real issue with the TNG era Prime Directive is that people constantly violate it for good reasons and yet no-one ever considers maybe modifying the order back at command or the government. It exists to provide a dilemma and isn't considered further than that point. Which also means the Federation ends up with a law captains violate constantly (again, generally with very good reason, allowing everyone to die to nuclear volcanoes or whatever wouldn't be good) but never considers adding a nuclear volcano provision to it, so it's both ineffective as law and mostly stupid in its implementation. It could be left in as a fail safe. Before you violate the Prime Directive you consider that if it is considered a bad or frivolous violation by the chuckleheads back home your career is over. If it's super bad you could be up on charges. But if the review board thinks it was a reasonable they just sigh and agree you did the best you could with a bad situation. We've never seen that review board, but we can assume it exists. If they carve out a bunch of exemptions to the rule that could make it less arbitrary, but it could also lead to a bunch of weaselly guys weaselling out of things -- "I did a nazi planet to save them!" If you violate the temporal prime directive you might get these guys showing up to take a statement and frown at you;  Or you might get this guy showing up to arrest you or delete you from the timeline;  So you give it a good hard think before you break it. Non-temporal crimes probably have a similar system. But without being erased.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2024 13:00
|
|
|
Don’t do the time crime if you can’t do the time crime time. 
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2024 13:14
|
|
|
Apollodorus posted:Don’t do the time crime if you can’t do the time crime time. You can do time crimes when you have a Krenim time laser in your back pocket
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2024 16:07
|
|
|
TOS is the Wild West of the Prime Directive, move fast break things make it up as you go who gives a poo poo we’re in uncharted territory stuff. Eventually by TNG the Federation is bureaucratized and becomes an organization helmed by stuff middle managers who haven’t left their desks in decades and can’t fathom doing anything but what the letter of the law says regardless of consequence. Then DS9 gives those guys an excuse to go full fascist, leading to the openly uncaring and cruel militarism seen in Picard. United Federation of Planets: The American Dream!
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2024 16:21
|
|
|
I was only time travelling to stop myself from doing a time crime!
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2024 16:25
|
|
|
Season 5 has finally crossed the usual threshold where previous seasons went right into the dirt so... it's nice they can at least finish mildly okay. Now they just need to figure out how to send cronenberg in the past so he can be in later seasons of SNW.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2024 17:40
|
|
|
If this had been season 1 way back when, it would've been a great start to nuTrek. Don't even need to go all in to the Burn yet. Time travel episode wouldn't make sense but honestly imagining if they did that season 1 with no context, would be pretty cool, montage of poo poo we never see happen because it doesn't. How much Trek do we have left that was at least already shot? Whether Sony or Skydance owns Trek next, they're going to have spent a lot of money to get it and will be wanting to make some back ASAP. NuTrek has been uneven but I've never seen a big IP handover go down for the better. There is however a lot of untapped Trek talent, and too many tapped out ones who keep getting the job, so maybe the new owners will shake things up and somehow keep it Trekky.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2024 18:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 16:07 |
|
|
We’ve got like 4 episodes of Disco and one season of LD. The S31 movie is probably also about finished. SNW may be finished filming now? I’m not sure. They are supposed to film Starfleet Academy this summer.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2024 18:48
|
|