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I remember in like 2013 there was some research (or maybe resurgence of research) that in America 80k is the magic salary for happiness, enough to live on while not getting caught up in the rat race of “more and more money”. At the time I figured that was a good goal. My mom processed paperwork at a hospital and my dad fixed cars. It seemed like an enormous sum to me. I’m like 45min north of a metro area on northeast. 20min to smaller cities. My wife and I have been together since college and until recently consistently made $80-$120k household. She stopped working once we had our first kid, but I’ve had raises/new jobs keep up. It was more than enough money only because we established our life before COVID. We got our house in 2016 at a bargain and a low rate. I paid for my masters out of pocket before we had kids. Buying my house in TYOOL 2023 would cost an extra $25k/yr, which is roughly equivalent to our “excess savings” run rate that we’d eat into for a trip or put aside for retirement or the kids future. Basically that cushion what made us feel “rich”. I feel bad as gently caress for anyone that didn’t get in while the getting was good. Literally generational step function reduction in quality of life (if you want a house like a lot of people do). I have a couple mid-20 cousins who if they had their current jobs in in 2012-2019 they’d be living it up, but now stuck living at home or with like 3 other people and trying to buy a house as a squad. Crazyweasel fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Feb 15, 2023 |
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Feb 15, 2023 14:23
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Jesus never paid taxes. Well he paid one tax. That tax was for humanity.
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Feb 15, 2023 17:01
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Then the Pharisees went and plotted to entrap him in what he said. So they sent their disciples to him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that you are sincere, and teach the way of God in accordance with truth, and show deference to no one, for you do not regard people with partiality. Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar or not?” But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why are you putting me to the test, you hypocrites? Show me the coin used for the tax.” And they brought him a denarius. Then he said to them, “Whose head is this and whose title?” They answered, “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them, “Give therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God the things that are God’s.” When they heard this, they were amazed, and they left him and went away.
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Feb 15, 2023 17:03
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gently caress Caesar. Let Bezos pay Caesar.
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Feb 15, 2023 17:06
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~ Jesus Christ, Genesis 2
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Feb 15, 2023 17:07
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Jesus never paid taxes. Counterpoint, he had such a problem with taxes specifically because he did pay them. That's probably why he came busting out into public life bitching about, among other things, taxes, in his 30s; old dude started making bank at the carpentry company he inherited from his dad and the tax bill broke his brain. "Why am I paying for the upkeep of Roman aqueducts? This is bullshit! I'm god lol."
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Feb 15, 2023 17:11
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loving romans, what did they ever do for us??
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Feb 15, 2023 17:16
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Colonel Cancer posted:loving romans, what did they ever do for us?? Thinking their aqueducts and concrete are so cool like they're hot poo poo or something.
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Feb 15, 2023 17:33
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Inzombiac posted:I make about 60K in my extremely easy and stable job. I wouldn't give up this security for a little more money; the increase would have to be pretty huge. I started thinking "what was I making when I was happiest?" and it was when I also had a not overly difficult job with my current company making about 60k. It was very task-oriented, lots of hands off technical work for projects. Now I manage projects and I dislike being responsible for the work of others. It might be what I took over, though. The last manager used to tell me if she cant get off these projects she was quitting after being around long enough to keep her entire 401k. I haven't really changed my standard of living. I am just saving more. Sometimes I think "Well, I can afford this now" and it seems cool for a minute - but really all I want is like a week where I am not constantly stressed about work.
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Feb 15, 2023 18:05
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Try reading a few articles op
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Feb 15, 2023 18:19
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methanar is just going to come back and send more people his paystubs
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Feb 15, 2023 18:21
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like a trapdoor spider that hides under bank statements.
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Feb 15, 2023 18:22
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mysterious frankie posted:like a trapdoor spider that hides under bank statements.
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Feb 15, 2023 18:26
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Mulaney Power Move posted:I haven't really changed my standard of living. I am just saving more. Sometimes I think "Well, I can afford this now" and it seems cool for a minute - but really all I want is like a week where I am not constantly stressed about work.  This is pretty much where I’m at. I have a couple of financial goals I should hit on the next few years, but after that it’s just number watching. I can’t really articulate anything meaningful I’d change in my day-to-day whereas I can definitely feel the grind getting to me.
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Feb 15, 2023 18:36
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Crazyweasel posted:I remember in like 2013 there was some research (or maybe resurgence of research) that in America 80k is the magic salary for happiness, enough to live on while not getting caught up in the rat race of “more and more money”. At the time I figured that was a good goal. My mom processed paperwork at a hospital and my dad fixed cars. It seemed like an enormous sum to me. I’m like 45min north of a metro area on northeast. 20min to smaller cities. Actually, cut the condo. Renting is often cheaper and a much better solution for the majority of people.
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Feb 15, 2023 18:36
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renting is fail. pro capitalism much? either owner or shareholder of a housing cooperative ftw
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Feb 15, 2023 18:39
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I worry rent will increase and if you eventually own something, your cost of housing is at least limited and known and won’t go up, at least as much, when you eventually don’t have to work and if you can’t ever fully retire, you at least can sign over the condo deed to the budget old folks facility and they should keep you warm and dry and fed instant mashed potatoes and apple sauce
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Feb 15, 2023 18:49
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naem posted:I worry rent will increase and if you eventually own something, your cost of housing is at least limited and known and won’t go up, at least as much, when you eventually don’t have to work Unless you live in a condo with HOA and property taxes. Those can really gently caress you. Your wages stagnate but your property taxes and HOA fees increase yearly. I'm actually trying to find a condo right now but its realyl difficult.
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Feb 15, 2023 18:52
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i will never rent agaiun as long as i live. gently caress landlords
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Feb 15, 2023 18:53
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Rent should be a living collective for the building and surrounding area
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Feb 15, 2023 18:54
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Hardawn posted:Rent should be a living collective for the building and surrounding area i dunno if it exists in america but here that's called a housing cooperative and it owns
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Feb 15, 2023 18:55
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hot cocoa on the couch posted:renting is fail. pro capitalism much? either owner or shareholder of a housing cooperative ftw Yeah, coops are pretty great around here. So is public housing. It's very cheap and high quality. Absolutely no need to involve fat guys in top hats and monocle in all of this. naem posted:I worry rent will increase and if you eventually own something, your cost of housing is at least limited and known and won’t go up, at least as much, when you eventually don’t have to work The math usually works out in favor of renting though, even with insane rent increases. You of course need to invest the money you save by renting instead of buying into an ETF or a bond or whatever for when you retire. You can't spend it before that.
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Feb 15, 2023 18:57
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I hope to sell after paying a place off and moving to a less expensive part of the country to be old in as a possibility at least
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Feb 15, 2023 19:01
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naem posted:I worry rent will increase and if you eventually own something, your cost of housing is at least limited and known and won’t go up, at least as much, when you eventually don’t have to work My concern with owning at this volatile point in history, beyond the cost of houses and interest rates, is I'm potentially performing a worse form of renting, where I don't just pay the bank an obscene amount every month to keep living in my house, but also owe them an even more obscene lump sum, and if for some reason I can't make my mortgage, they take the house, and if they can't resell it for enough money to cover the sum still owed, I'm on the line for the difference. Right now, if I lost my job or rent doubled, we'd just lose our apartment but essentially be "free"; depressed and living in our car\with relatives, etc, but "free". My wife has a really steady job with guaranteed pay increases and is in a union, but she currently makes a little more than half what I do because she's in university administration and is going to have to rack up a lot more years before she's making enough money that she could solo handle our cost of living now, and if we bought a home in today's market our mortgage would be at least double what we pay in rent. While I make a lot more, my jobs have historically just kinda... gone away when it makes sense to the bottom line of whoever is hiring me.; there's no loyalty and no sense of stability, so buying a house seems like a massive error in judgement until there's a housing market collapse and we can legally steal the home of someone else like a couple of ghouls. In some circles they call the arithmetic I used to reach this conclusion Sad Bastard Math.
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Feb 15, 2023 19:12
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mysterious frankie posted:My concern with owning at this volatile point in history, beyond the cost of houses and interest rates, is I'm potentially performing a worse form of renting, where I don't just pay the bank an obscene amount every month to keep living in my house, but also owe them an even more obscene lump sum, and if for some reason I can't make my mortgage, they take the house, and if they can't resell it for enough money to cover the sum still owed, I'm on the line for the difference. Right now, if I lost my job or rent doubled, we'd just lose our apartment but essentially be "free"; depressed and living in our car\with relatives, etc, but "free". My wife has a really steady job with guaranteed pay increases and is in a union, but she currently makes a little more than half what I do because she's in university administration and is going to have to rack up a lot more years before she's making enough money that she could solo handle our cost of living now, and if we bought a home in today's market our mortgage would be at least double what we pay in rent. While I make a lot more, my jobs have historically just kinda... gone away when it makes sense to the bottom line of whoever is hiring me.; there's no loyalty and no sense of stability, so buying a house seems like a massive error in judgement until there's a housing market collapse and we can legally steal the home of someone else like a couple of ghouls. In some circles they call the arithmetic I used to reach this conclusion Sad Bastard Math. 100% understand and agree with you on all fronts. timing and cost are big for me, I’d hate to buy and then housing pulls a mini 2008 and i’m in debt. There are some options where mortgage plus hoa wouldn’t be much more than rent where I am so I might go for it, I have an ok down payment plus extra to stay liquid. the job market seems robust where I am too so I’d find something comparable.
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Feb 15, 2023 19:21
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With a house you get your money back + more after 30 years and you’re locked into a pre-inflation monthly payment. If you get a mortgage for 5 grand a month, year 30 you’re still paying 5 grand a month in worth-less future dollars. If you sell you essentially got to live for nearly free. With renting you never see that money again. Rent is also after income tax so really you’re being double shafted. If property wasn’t worth it then landlords wouldn’t have it in their investment portfolio. Owning the house you rent would save you a ton of money. My dad made ~100k a year (180k today) as an air traffic controller in the 90s and bought our house for 240k (450k today). The house is now “worth” 1.5 million. The house is now also nearly 20 years older with only a few improvements and minimal maintenance. It sextupled in value. Adjusted for inflation, despite making 60% more than my dad, my partner and I combined will be unable to afford my dad’s home. The economy is loving bullshit.
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Feb 15, 2023 19:23
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naem posted:100% understand and agree with you on all fronts. Admittedly, I'm two years in and this job seems like one of those mythic stable private sector positions where you can settle in as an uninspired salaryman until you eventually slump over at your desk gripping a gold watch, but the climb to here through my 20s and 30s friggin left a mark and I'm scared to make any bold moves that rely on having good, steady employment for the next three decades.
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Feb 15, 2023 19:35
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Knot My President! posted:With a house you get your money back + more after 30 years and you’re locked into a pre-inflation monthly payment. If you get a mortgage for 5 grand a month, year 30 you’re still paying 5 grand a month in worth-less future dollars. If you sell you essentially got to live for nearly free. With renting you never see that money again. Rent is also after income tax so really you’re being double shafted. If property wasn’t worth it then landlords wouldn’t have it in their investment portfolio. Owning the house you rent would save you a ton of money. This really depends on what state you live in. If you live in a state that has high property tax values and that's the main way the state raises money then you can almost rely on the fact that as your home increases in value so do your property taxes while your income stagnates. Lets say you make 50,000 a year. You buy a condo with HOA of 500 and Property taxes of 2400 and Mortgage of 500. Your total expense will then be like 1200 a month. 3 Years later your home value increases Your condo HOA is now 550 , your property taxes are now 2800 and your mortgage is 500. Your monthly payment is now 1283 a month. You still make 50,000 dollars a year. The proportion of your rent to your housing cost is higher. This is a huge problem in cities and states that have property taxes because eventually the property taxes become so high that people on fixed incomes are priced out of neighborhoods.
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Feb 15, 2023 19:40
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Knot My President! posted:With a house you get your money back + more after 30 years and you’re locked into a pre-inflation monthly payment. If you get a mortgage for 5 grand a month, year 30 you’re still paying 5 grand a month in worth-less future dollars. If you sell you essentially got to live for nearly free. With renting you never see that money again. Rent is also after income tax so really you’re being double shafted. If property wasn’t worth it then landlords wouldn’t have it in their investment portfolio. Owning the house you rent would save you a ton of money. To get 1.5 million today you needed to start putting ~$800 monthly into a regular ETF in 1995 and then increase the contributions by 4% each year. If the difference between rent and mortgage for that house was more than $800 when they bought it, it might not have been worth it to buy, from a financial point of view. But there are of course other benefits to owning like not having to deal with landlord scum, being able to make changes to the house, no risk of the rent contract being terminated, etc. Also, I did not consider taxes cause I have no idea how the gently caress American taxes work
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Feb 15, 2023 19:53
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The way property tax in California works is you pay 1% of the property's assessed value at time of purchase and that tax amount can't increase more than 2% per year from then-on. It's actually set up to stay the same with inherited property (Prop 13) and the reason there are 4-5 million dollar homes in Marin owned by trustafarian shitlord heirs being rented out for 10k/month My dad had something insane like a 2.4% mortgage on his 240k house in addition to the above property tax rate e: also in the information age there are no more deals to be had anymore with renting-- landlords know that rent will always exceed landlord mortgages and they'll always make a profit. It's safe to say that spending 2 grand a month on property tax and a mortgage both now and in 2050 will be a better deal than your rent going from 2k to 4k to 5k with inflation not including landlord rent seeking greed Knot My President! fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Feb 15, 2023 |
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Feb 15, 2023 20:00
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Our stupid tiny 180k beach bungalow bought in 2003 is now worth 720k. The housing market is hosed. I want to ditch our condo but getting back into a house would be a nightmare rn.
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Feb 15, 2023 20:09
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Hardawn posted:Rent should be a living collective for the building and surrounding area you could do it like singapore does where the govt owns all the land and leases it out
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Feb 15, 2023 20:13
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U.K. goon here. £100K is definitely a lot relative to the median, even in London. But that number has definitely downgraded from the lifestyle you could afford over time (in the past 20 years, probably something like luxury —> comfort, which as mentioned upthread are different things). Relative to median earnings it’s gone from about 4x to 3x from when I started work (2010) versus now. At a surface level I think this is good: the median is going up in nominal terms. But if you stayed at £100k nominal from 2010-2023, your lifestyle would have degraded by 35% over that period. That’s huge. Again, that’s the difference between luxury and comfort. Meanwhile, the median salary growth has not kept up with the cost of living at all. That’s the difference between getting by, and struggling to make ends meet and frequently feeling financial stress. Oh yeah, we had a meaningful chance to positively change the trajectory of our society in 2017 but decided not to because better things aren’t possible.
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Feb 16, 2023 08:45
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I think around $200k is now where real upper middle class luxury starts, and $100k is now the requirement to live comfortably. And those numbers could even be higher in some major cities. In DC housing costs have gotten so bad that even the highest government salaries that top out around $170-180k can’t keep up anymore.
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Feb 17, 2023 09:23
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Knot My President! posted:With a house you get your money back + more after 30 years and you’re locked into a pre-inflation monthly payment. If you get a mortgage for 5 grand a month, year 30 you’re still paying 5 grand a month in worth-less future dollars. If you sell you essentially got to live for nearly free. With renting you never see that money again. Rent is also after income tax so really you’re being double shafted. If property wasn’t worth it then landlords wouldn’t have it in their investment portfolio. Owning the house you rent would save you a ton of money. People don't choose whether or not they want to own a home, otherwise everyone would own a home. People need to save for a deposit, be approved for the loan and then keep up the repayments while also saving for their retirement, emergencies, paying their utilities, groceries, all the other poo poo that goes into life. The repayments arent the part people struggle with, it's the initial saving and the overcoming of existing debt. This next bit isn't aimed at you, just a general comment. It's genuinely disheartening to see how many people itt have essentially become bootlickers without even realising it. Telling people how little they earn and how happy they are to earn it and dammit you all should be satisfied too! "100k salary is 3x the median or whatever" - so what? 10% of Americans live below the poverty line. Think about that, that's one in every 10 people you walk past in the street can't make ends meet. So yes 100k may be a lot higher than the median but the point being made here is the median is too loving low and you should be mad about that, not scolding people for not pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. putin is a cunt fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Feb 17, 2023 |
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Feb 17, 2023 10:38
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putin is a oval office posted:People don't choose whether or not they want to own a home, otherwise everyone would own a home. People need to save for a deposit, be approved for the loan and then keep up the repayments while also saving for their retirement, emergencies, paying their utilities, groceries, all the other poo poo that goes into life. The repayments arent the part people struggle with, it's the initial saving and the overcoming of existing debt. asceticism is the best virtue
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Feb 17, 2023 23:27
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i love that the expression "to pull oneself up by one's bootstraps" originally referred to the physical impossibility of the doing so, and was intended as an euphemism for an absurdly impossible task, and then somehow became unironically adopted by conservatives chest-thumping about personal responsibility as something people should actually "do" to get out of poverty
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Feb 17, 2023 23:46
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Halisnacks posted:When did the concept and reality of in-work poverty become politically acceptable for conservatives (and, let’s be honest, some liberals)? The shift began with the rise of neoliberalism in the 80’s and how Reagan managed to tie together the absolute freedom of markets and personal freedom in people’s minds to the point that it permeated both political parties. At the same time the US labor force was severely disciplined by outsourcing and competition from much cheaper labor in developing countries. Unions lost most of their power, and big money donors and lobbyists took over Washington. Then came the gradual breakdown of social ties in the internet age and the rise of memeified identity politics, which largely broke class consciousness and the ability to organize. Now we’re stuck with one party that wants to slap a band aid on our festering socioeconomic problems and another that wants to actively make them worse. colonelwest fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Feb 18, 2023 |
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Feb 18, 2023 10:53
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I don’t even have to pay income tax and all I have to do is spend the majority of my life on a box boat shifting happy meal toys and sex arses across the ocean. Bet you cretins didn’t even think of doing that. Now excuse me while I sob uncontrollably for unrelated reasons.
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Feb 18, 2023 11:54
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I occupy a weird niche right now, since I work for a US Defense Contractor in Germany, and I count as a military body under our Status of Forces Agreement with Germany. So I don’t pay any German taxes, and I pay virtually no US taxes either since I can use the foreign earned income exemption. So basically I’m just a war profiteer/leech on society. The defense industry is a giant scam, but it’s one way to get ahead, especially if you spent some time in the military.
colonelwest fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Feb 18, 2023 |
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Feb 18, 2023 12:17
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