p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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penus de milo: Mar 9, 2002; CHAR CHAR

Perl is a pretty sweet glue language if you use it for what it's intended for, tiny little scripts for when bash isnt powerful enough

trying to use it for actual programming is a no-no

mathsnype: 78 is a triangular number, and its factorization makes it a sphenic number. As a multiple of a perfect number, 78 is itself a semiperfect number.

# ? May 28, 2012 12:13

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 14:28

TiMBuS: Sep 25, 2007; LOL WUT?

ive made large apps in perl and its not bad. ive found the main culprit blocking any maintaining/refactoring is thee abuse of hashes as datastores. e: especially for keeping state in a GUI
basically: use moose. use moose. use Moose;

# ? May 28, 2012 12:24

Stringent: Dec 22, 2004; image text goes here

TiMBuS posted:

pff yea epic facepalm, code that avoids unneeded copying and also avoids actoin-at-a-distance ref fuckery is totally a bad idea.

i saw it as avoiding unneeded copying at the cost of enabling action-at-a-distance ref fuckery, but hey ymmv

# ? May 28, 2012 12:26

TiMBuS: Sep 25, 2007; LOL WUT?

Stringent posted:

i saw it as avoiding unneeded copying at the cost of enabling action-at-a-distance ref fuckery, but hey ymmv

umm did u miss the part about where the default is a readonly ref. also perl5 lets you modify @_. my mileage does vary. i have a honda civic with a strange engine

# ? May 28, 2012 12:33

Stringent: Dec 22, 2004; image text goes here

TiMBuS posted:

also perl5 lets you modify @_.

and i had to pass it off as a readability issue to get them to stop doing that...

is there a switch to get it to default to pass as copy?

Stringent fucked around with this message at 12:44 on May 28, 2012

# ? May 28, 2012 12:41

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

perl is awful, never write anything new in perl that doesn't fit on your screen

# ? May 28, 2012 12:50

TiMBuS: Sep 25, 2007; LOL WUT?

Stringent posted:

is there a switch to get it to default to pass as copy?

in perl6? um, no? no. there is no such switch. i dont see why you want this, but if yuo have a good reson ill tell it to larry and he can explain to me why its a dumb idea and ill pass it on back to you.

# ? May 28, 2012 13:03

Zombywuf: Mar 29, 2008

TiMBuS posted:

Perl code:

sub add-one-readonly ($z) {
    $z = $z+1; #Error. cannot modify readonly value
}


sub add-one-ref ($z is rw) {
    $z = $z+1; #Cool.
}
my $a = 0;
add-one-ref ($a)
say $a; #It's now 1.

add-one-ref(5); #But this will fail.


#If you prefer the Old Way
sub add-one-perl5 ($z is copy) {
    $z = $z+1; 
}

Good poo poo! go get perl 6!!

Old news.

C++ code:

void add_one_readonly(const int &z) {
  z = z + 1; // static error, why wait till run time?
}
void add_one_ref(int &z) {
  z = z + 1;
}
void add_one_copy(int z) {
  z = z + 1;
}

Why other languages make such a meal of this I dunno.

# ? May 28, 2012 13:08

NeoHentaiMaster: Jul 13, 2004; More well adjusted then you'd think.

Char posted:

Perl is a pretty sweet glue language if you use it for what it's intended for, tiny little scripts for when bash isnt powerful enough

trying to use it for actual programming is a no-no

People honestly think this. I think it stems from outdated information. Maybe 5+ years ago it sort of made sense. I have no idea.

# ? May 28, 2012 13:08

Zombywuf: Mar 29, 2008

NeoHentaiMaster posted:

People honestly think this. I think it stems from outdated information. Maybe 5+ years ago it sort of made sense. I have no idea.

It stems from the days when people thought that a clean looking syntax made programming easy.

People still think this :smith:

right, I gotta go fix a UnicodeDecodeError, an exception being swallowed causing a misreporting of success, a persistant db timeout and a data loss bug.

# ? May 28, 2012 13:11

TiMBuS: Sep 25, 2007; LOL WUT?

Zombywuf posted:

Old news.

C++ code:

void add_one_readonly(const int &z) {
  z = z + 1; // static error, why wait till run time?
}
void add_one_ref(int &z) {
  z = z + 1;
}
void add_one_copy(int z) {
  z = z + 1;
}

Why other languages make such a meal of this I dunno.

woosh

# ? May 28, 2012 13:11

Zombywuf: Mar 29, 2008

TiMBuS posted:

woosh

Is Perl6 ready yet?

# ? May 28, 2012 13:13

Rufus Ping: Dec 27, 2006; I'm a Friend of Rodney Nano

Zombywuf posted:

Is Perl6 ready yet?

go back to "trolling" d&d

# ? May 28, 2012 13:30

Stringent: Dec 22, 2004; image text goes here

TiMBuS posted:

in perl6? um, no? no. there is no such switch. i dont see why you want this, but if yuo have a good reson ill tell it to larry and he can explain to me why its a dumb idea and ill pass it on back to you.

i have a reason, but it's probably not a good reason per se

# ? May 28, 2012 13:31

TiMBuS: Sep 25, 2007; LOL WUT?

it would make sense if chomp and s/// etc worked like perl5's (which btw is terrible). but they don't so..

anyway the perl6 guys said a couple people have asked for a 'default copy' pragma, but most just realized they didnt need to modify their poo poo in place and stopped asking. idk. they might put it in if enough people complain

# ? May 28, 2012 13:37

skeevy achievements: Feb 25, 2008; by merry exmarx

Zombywuf posted:

It stems from the days when people thought that a clean looking syntax made programming easy.

People still think this

right, I gotta go fix a UnicodeDecodeError, an exception being swallowed causing a misreporting of success, a persistant db timeout and a data loss bug.

how does using an obtuse syntax make those problems easier to solve or go away altogether

# ? May 28, 2012 13:55

Stringent: Dec 22, 2004; image text goes here

Internaut! posted:

how does using an obtuse syntax make those problems easier to solve or go away altogether

theoretically the same way that :10bux:

does

# ? May 28, 2012 14:02

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

Zombywuf posted:

It stems from the days when people thought that a clean looking syntax made programming easy.

i bet u miss those heady days of apl

# ? May 28, 2012 14:02

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

personally I think people who talk about optimising syntax from the perspective of writing code, as opposed to reading it, are petulant. it's plainly obvious which activity happens more.

:emote:

# ? May 28, 2012 14:06

Stringent: Dec 22, 2004; image text goes here

tef posted:

personally I think people who talk about optimising syntax from the perspective of writing code, as opposed to reading it, are petulant. it's plainly obvious which activity happens more.

:emote:

# ? May 28, 2012 14:13

skeevy achievements: Feb 25, 2008; by merry exmarx

yeah I may have mentioned it already itt but watching that intern use idea was pretty impressive, he knew all the shortcuts and code generators and whatnot so it was like watching a video of a regular text editor on 8x fast forward

and of course the code produced, verbose as it was, was extremely readable so in summation pick your platform based on tooling good day :tipshat:

# ? May 28, 2012 14:23

Cocoa Crispies: Jul 20, 2001; Vehicular Manslaughter!; Pillbug

Internaut! posted:

yeah I may have mentioned it already itt but watching that intern use idea was pretty impressive, he knew all the shortcuts and code generators and whatnot so it was like watching a video of a regular text editor on 8x fast forward

and of course the code produced, verbose as it was, was extremely readable so in summation pick your platform based on tooling good day

verbose code is hard to read simply because there's more of it

compare dr. seuss and harry potter

# ? May 28, 2012 14:34

Zombywuf: Mar 29, 2008

I miss not being able to deduce whether I am dealing with a reference or a value by the syntax surrounding it and having to go chasing all over the code to find out.

Maybe I should learn APL, then I can create a frankensteinien combo of APL and COBOL. It will be the most powerful most readable thing ever.

# ? May 28, 2012 15:23

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

don't use values, problem solved.

put that in your box and smoke it.

# ? May 28, 2012 17:13

Luigi Thirty: Apr 30, 2006; Emergency confection port.

Zombywuf posted:

Maybe I should learn APL, then I can create a frankensteinien combo of APL and COBOL. It will be the most powerful most readable thing ever.

challenge: write a function to convert a standard steamid (STEAM_0:0:xxxxxxxx) to a 64-bit steamid (a longass number) in a language created before 1972

# ? May 28, 2012 17:33

skeevy achievements: Feb 25, 2008; by merry exmarx

BonzoESC posted:

verbose code is hard to read simply because there's more of it

compare dr. seuss and harry potter

barring that harry potter is presumably much richer linguistically than dr seuss how verbose is java these days

I haven't used it since ehhhh 1.4? but I know there's generics and concise iteration syntax and autoboxing and whatnot now which would have saved me a lot of code, ymmv

if the biggest pain points left are idiomatic builder.strategy.patternpatternpattern frameworks, well don't use those I guess?

edit, I haven't used java since old times

skeevy achievements fucked around with this message at 18:54 on May 28, 2012

# ? May 28, 2012 17:39

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple on pizzadog derangement syndrome

I have zero problems with verbose code. code should be stupid obvious, not a bunch of stuff done in the background as a side effect of how iterators unroll or how things are passed or whatever and if just typing out a bunch of poo poo to make all that poo poo explicit is what it takes, so be it. if the manual act of typing is your big complaint, get hosed.

# ? May 28, 2012 18:47

Zombywuf: Mar 29, 2008

Luigi Thirty posted:

challenge: write a function to convert a standard steamid (STEAM_0:0:xxxxxxxx) to a 64-bit steamid (a longass number) in a language created before 1972

No fair, you excluded Prolog.

# ? May 28, 2012 18:58

Zombywuf: Mar 29, 2008

rotor posted:

I have zero problems with verbose code. code should be stupid obvious, not a bunch of stuff done in the background as a side effect of how iterators unroll or how things are passed or whatever and if just typing out a bunch of poo poo to make all that poo poo explicit is what it takes, so be it. if the manual act of typing is your big complaint, get hosed.

What I can't stand is masses of typing that achieves very little, i.e. Java and COBOL. This is why I want to add the power of APL to COBOL.

# ? May 28, 2012 18:59

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple on pizzadog derangement syndrome

Zombywuf posted:

What I can't stand is masses of typing that achieves very little

why? what problem does highly meaning-dense code solve?

# ? May 28, 2012 19:10

Sniep: Mar 28, 2004; All I needed was that fatty blunt...

King of Breakfast

rotor posted:

why? what problem does highly meaning-dense code solve?

lower LoC universally gets recognized as being better code / higher output value yup yup

# ? May 28, 2012 19:12

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple on pizzadog derangement syndrome

obvious code is good code and meaning-dense code is typically not obvious.

# ? May 28, 2012 19:14

EMILY BLUNTS: Jan 1, 2005

less thinking and mental filtering while reading the code becasue there aren't as many things all over the place

should be easier to debug too when the computer isn't able to figure out what

# ? May 28, 2012 19:14

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple on pizzadog derangement syndrome

I mean not YOUR code zombywuf, I'm talking about those other people

# ? May 28, 2012 19:15

rotor: Jun 11, 2001; classic case of pineapple on pizzadog derangement syndrome

Resplendent Spiral posted:

less thinking and mental filtering while reading the code becasue there aren't as many things all over the place

should be easier to debug too when the computer isn't able to figure out what

the work has to get done somewhere and my position is that it should be done out in the open, and if the price you pay for that is verbosity, who fuckin cares

# ? May 28, 2012 19:17

skeevy achievements: Feb 25, 2008; by merry exmarx

rotor posted:

I have zero problems with verbose code. code should be stupid obvious, not a bunch of stuff done in the background as a side effect of how iterators unroll or how things are passed or whatever and if just typing out a bunch of poo poo to make all that poo poo explicit is what it takes, so be it. if the manual act of typing is your big complaint, get hosed.

where does as3 fall on the verbosity scale

iirc it looked a lot like java

# ? May 28, 2012 19:24