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OpenlyEvilJello posted:Are you familiar with the tier system? Unless I'm forgetting something, out of five tiers, all full casters fit in the top two, all non-casters fit in the bottom two, and partial casters are spread across the three middle tiers.
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Jun 15, 2012 23:47
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Well, that's only because Truenamers were loving useless above level 2.
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Jun 15, 2012 23:58
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MadScientistWorking posted:In Pathfinder yes all full casters are high tier but in 3.5E full casters ran the spectrum of the best class to being the worst class in the entire game. Name a bad full caster (note: truenamer is not a full caster)
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Jun 16, 2012 00:15
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Piell posted:Name a bad full caster (note: truenamer is not a full caster)
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Jun 16, 2012 00:34
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MadScientistWorking posted:The Truenamer wasn't a full caster class? The truenamer is as much a full caster as a warblade is (i.e., not at all).
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Jun 16, 2012 00:35
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It's a class whose entire progression was based on casting, isn't that the definition of a full caster? I'm not trying to be snarky, I thought that was exactly what a full caster was. A class whose entire focus was on magic as opposed to physical combat.
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Jun 16, 2012 00:39
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I think full casters were defined as classes with 9 levels of spell progression.
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Jun 16, 2012 00:42
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Healer. Now that was a full-casting class with a gimmick that wasn't particularly useful, though it had a couple of decent buffs and utilities, and you might have been able to use PrCs and feats to wrangle it into something resembling a shape, but at least it wasn't a trunamer or samurai. Warmage was also kind of not as effective as most full casters since the class had an over-reliance on meh direct damage spells, though it did have a small supply of Save-or-Lose spells like Stinking Cloud and options for acquiring other, better spells and spellcasting options, especially with PrCs such as Incantrix. They may have been the Tier 1's less-effective cousins and runts of the litter, but they were still full casters.
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Jun 16, 2012 01:01
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I just got invited to a starting level 5 pathfinder game and started mucking around with the books for the first time. I have a few questions though. I was planning on a dwarf druid; Knows alot about nature as it affects him [caves, caverns, rock formation and subterranian critters. If you want someone to identify that brightly coloured weed, go find yourself an elf.] and I got the GM's A-OK to reskin a crocodile pet as an enormous scorpion. Now, here's where I'm a bit fuzzy on things, A lot of wild-shape creature attacks can include a grapple and, in fact, the crocodile bite has one as its default. Will those get the benefit if I take grapple feats such as Improved/Greater Grapple (the same question naturally extends to Scorpion Style and Gorgon's Fist). If that's the case, it would make a lot of sense to get 1 level of monk [well, 3 levels so I can get fast movement, but 1 for starting at level 5] to get the bonus feat and prereq unarmed strike feat. It'll delay my druid spells, but it seems like it would make my character a lot more viable all around. p.s. I am totally raising my pet's INT so he can get the grapple skills too, that's too awesome not to do.
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Jun 16, 2012 04:23
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I was referring specifically to Pathfinder classes above, this being the Pathfinder thread, although it should more or less hold true for 3.5 as well for those classes that really fit the full/partial/non-caster model.Alpha Phoenix posted:I just got invited to a starting level 5 pathfinder game and started mucking around with the books for the first time. I have a few questions though. If you're talking about grab, that simply lets you attempt to grapple for free if you hit with the attack. Therefore, any feat that improves your ability to perform grapple combat maneuvers (e.g. Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple) should function with it. I'm not sure where you're going with Scorpion Style/Gorgon's Fist, as neither of those involves grappling. Both require you to make an unarmed attack, which is different from a natural attack. Thus, neither will work with a crocodile's bite.
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Jun 16, 2012 04:49
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Ahh thank you. That makes sense, natural weapons don't count as unarmed. I was thinking the attack might be able to trigger scorpion before the grab, but I understand. Does the idea of a brawler/druid make sense, tossing a few levels into monk and feats into grappling and maybe even unarmed for when I'm out of wildform? I basically want to make sure my concept is sound. Then again, we rolled for stats so my str is a mighty 12, so maybe not. Alpha Phoenix fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Jun 16, 2012 |
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Jun 16, 2012 05:12
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CAPSLOCKGIRL posted:Okay, I've thought of a few fixes to help out the Gunslinger class, to help it not suck harder than the Monk (Which is a class I like playing anyway but whatever): Here's how I changed it for my home game (I used an altered AC/DR system, so you can probably ignore that line) pre:Gunslinger: Archetype: Gunslingers get one free archetype, for which they trade out no class abilities. They can take further archetypes as normal. BaB: Average. When using any weapon classified as Firearm, even in melee, their BaB is instead Excellent. (note: Average is Cleric BAB. 'Excellent' is the Iron Heroes Weapon Master BAB, which caps at 25 at level 20) Defense: +4 AC, +1 DR Skills: 4, as normal. Feats: Like all classes, Gunslingers get 1 feat per level. Spells: Gunslingers do not get spells. Abilities: --Gunslingers begin the day with a number of Grit points equal to their Wisdom modifier + ½ level. --All Gunslingers can perform Deeds as if their Gunslinger level was +4. --Whenever a Gunslinger gets a bonus feat, they get both a Combat feat and a Grit feat. --Gunslingers suffer no misfire chance. Anyone using a gunslinger’s chosen weapon suffers double the misfire chance, unless they themselves are a gunslinger, in which case they suffer only the regular misfire chance. --Gunslingers may count their levels as fighter levels for the purposes of taking feats that relate to Firearms. For example, a 4th level gunslinger who has taken Weapon Focus: Musket Axe may take Weapon Specialization: Musket Axe. This ability does not mean a gunslinger gets as many feats as a fighter does at each level. --For the purposes of feats, if a Gunslinger is using a Firearm with a melee component (bayonet on rifle, axe musket, etc), his feats that increase his ranged capability increase his melee capabilities with it as well. An example would be that a Gunslinger with Weapon Specialization: Axe Musket gets a +2 to hit with the axe or the bullet. Additionally, Gunslingers never have to spend Grit to activate the Pistol Whip deed, though they may if they wish, gaining a non-magical +1 to hit and damage for each Grit point spent Note how long this entry is compared to every other non-spellcaster entry. That’s because Gunslinger sucks.
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Jun 16, 2012 08:34
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Alpha Phoenix posted:Ahh thank you. That makes sense, natural weapons don't count as unarmed. I was thinking the attack might be able to trigger scorpion before the grab, but I understand. If you want to use Scorpion Style and such with Natural Attacks, it is possible, with this feat, as long as you can get your GM to agree that your Wild Shape gives you sufficient access to natural attacks to take weapon focus with one, or you can get a natural attack another way. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat
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Jun 16, 2012 10:21
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Anyone use the Pathfinder Beginners set that is about 36 USD? How good is it? And if I am planning on being a player is my money better saved of getting the core rule set?
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Jun 17, 2012 06:02
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From what I've seen, it's a great start-up pack for a whole group of people who've never played before. Has the basic rules, some simple character sheets, and an adventure to roll through. If you're joining an already existing group, you might want to just bum off one of them until you figure out whether or not you like the system - or just get the Core Rulebook, either or.
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Jun 17, 2012 07:32
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grah posted:Well if you're going to go Dex I guess I'd recommend Coat of Many Stars instead of Guiding Star, which frees up 1500 gp for some potions or whatever you might like. Potions of invisibility and see invisible are cheap enough and handy to have for something like this. You can always cast Bull's Strength before your Coup-de-Grace, but I would recommend getting strength up to 10 so that you get that nice +2, which is a +3 for using a Scythe two-handed, which is a +12 on an (automatic) crit. So we just did the fight. We tried initiative both ways, and we both won without the other making a single move. We're arguing about nitpicky rules poo poo at this very moment though, and I'm just wondering: In the Revelations entry, it says that activating a revelation is a standard action unless otherwise noted. Awesome Display says nothing about activating or duration (All the others do), is it still a standard action to turn it on? Edit: He's bothering me to post how he won: He used manyshot, and shot an entangling arrow and then a slaying arrow. I caught the entangling arrow (Which we just found out is a bolt, not an arrow) but the slaying arrow hit me and I failed my fort save, dying instantly. Eox fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Jun 17, 2012 |
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Jun 17, 2012 23:40
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Eox posted:So we just did the fight. We tried initiative both ways, and we both won without the other making a single move. Basically what any optimized fight looks like.
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Jun 18, 2012 02:24
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Well, yes slaying arrows kill things. That has nothing to do with Rangers though.
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Jun 18, 2012 03:24
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Herr Tog posted:Anyone use the Pathfinder Beginners set that is about 36 USD? How good is it? And if I am planning on being a player is my money better saved of getting the core rule set? It was how my group of complete RPG newbies got into PnP gaming. I'd highly recommend it!
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Jun 18, 2012 05:38
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So, spending 20-40% of your WBL on a single item expressly designed to counter a particular opponent and wholly reliant on complete knowledge of that opponent works. Amazing. And even then it's completely shut down by Wind Wall and substantially hindered by a bunch of stuff like, oh, Entropic Shield, any cover, or any concealment. I'm convinced!
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Jun 18, 2012 09:55
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Yeah, you guys told each other about your characters ahead of time. Granted, I agree with everyone else, but when we used to have Dover Bashes (that's what we called the 'everyone make a level 15 PC and let's FITE!' thing) everyone was secretive as gently caress about everything they were doing.
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Jun 18, 2012 11:23
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Swags posted:Yeah, you guys told each other about your characters ahead of time. Granted, I agree with everyone else, but when we used to have Dover Bashes (that's what we called the 'everyone make a level 15 PC and let's FITE!' thing) everyone was secretive as gently caress about everything they were doing. Even then it doesn't really do much, presuming no custom items, if both players know what they're doing it still boils down to init->winner kills other in first move. Any well built archer can kill in the opening round by using extra attacks backed by magic bow AND arrows(especially if you allow purchase of piecemeal ammo for everything-bane), and just plain damage them beyond their ability to resist. Likewise for a good charger who can smack for 150% of your hp in a single charge. Likewise for a reach-whore who can get into reach and then ready against anything you do. Any caster can...actually theres no one strategy for any one caster, accelerated summoning(e.g. via Sacred Summons) of thugs to pin them down, creating terrain that makes it improbable for them to fight(<anything> wall, tentacles, grease, fog), becoming improbable to hit(mirror image, displacement, etc), exiting the fight(teleporting/planeshifting out to nuke from extreme range), one-shotting the target via attack spells...and thats just the duel-type strategies. My personal preference to demonstrate the tier gap is to simply get a short adventure path and perform a solo run of the same path with the mundane and the caster. The performance difference would illustrate caster superiority much better.
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Jun 18, 2012 12:35
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Swags posted:Yeah, you guys told each other about your characters ahead of time. Granted, I agree with everyone else, but when we used to have Dover Bashes (that's what we called the 'everyone make a level 15 PC and let's FITE!' thing) everyone was secretive as gently caress about everything they were doing. I was actually entirely secretive. All he knew was I picked a caster class, other than that the only hint was 'It's not my proficiencies you'll have to worry about'
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Jun 18, 2012 15:04
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Eox posted:I was actually entirely secretive. All he knew was I picked a caster class, other than that the only hint was 'It's not my proficiencies you'll have to worry about' So did he just have a slaying arrow for each type of humanoid or something? There is no "arcane/divine caster slaying" arrow or any equivalent in Pathfinder.
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Jun 18, 2012 15:13
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That reminds me of someone's sig I saw the other day:quote:I had my players start at level 27 once, in an effort to visibly demonstrate the tier system to them. They fought a 17th level (20th level experience, crafted three levels away) wizard/initiate of the sevenfold veil. It was eight on one. The wizard spent every single standard action he had for the fight drinking martinis.
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Jun 18, 2012 20:38
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grah posted:So did he just have a slaying arrow for each type of humanoid or something? There is no "arcane/divine caster slaying" arrow or any equivalent in Pathfinder. The game does become much easier if you have a save-or-die for every situation. Luckily, no class can- oh... veekie posted:My personal preference to demonstrate the tier gap is to simply get a short adventure path and perform a solo run of the same path with the mundane and the caster. The performance difference would illustrate caster superiority much better. This would be my preference for a demonstration. Among other things it should really kill the "fighters can go all day" thing.
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Jun 18, 2012 20:55
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veekie posted:My personal preference to demonstrate the tier gap is to simply get a short adventure path and perform a solo run of the same path with the mundane and the caster. The performance difference would illustrate caster superiority much better. If they actually test this, I will be entirely unsurprised if the martial class guy tries to claim every coup-de-grace as his own contribution to the party.
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Jun 18, 2012 21:00
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Meepo posted:That reminds me of someone's sig I saw the other day: Found a source for this, if anyone's interested: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13206508&postcount=28 Here's the rest: quote:The group was: quote:Party opted for three rounds of 'buff time'. Wizard used a scroll of delayed Gate, a protection from evil and the spell to conjure his lawn chair into his bag of holding during this time. Spent the whole fight sitting in said lawn chair, drinking martinis and occasionally hitting his 'no' button until the balor showed up.
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Jun 18, 2012 22:48
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Wrist Watch posted:Found a source for this, if anyone's interested: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13206508&postcount=28 This loving rules, thanks for posting it.
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Jun 18, 2012 22:53
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MoonwalkInvincible posted:If they actually test this, I will be entirely unsurprised if the martial class guy tries to claim every coup-de-grace as his own contribution to the party. Well, solo run does limit things severely. If you want it to be more realistic you could do the same but with NPC Adepts, Experts and Warriors making up the missing members on autopilot.
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Jun 19, 2012 03:18
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Your friend fighting in the arena battle: Wizard 5 (Diviner) Feats: Improved Initiative Spell Focus: Conjuration Augment Summoning Superior Summoning Skill Focus: Stealth Arcane Bond: Item, summon Monster 3 Attributes: You only need a 16 INT to get a 3rd-level bonus spell, so make your primary stat Dexterity, 18 at least, 20 is better. Dump Str, Wis, Cha, and leave Con lower if you need to get your Dex to 20. Skills: Stealth 5 Your Init mod will be +12 (Improved Initiative, Diviner, Dex.) Go first. If you roll poorly, you might be able to withstand one round. Round 1. Cast invisibility. Your opponent will now need to roll over 53 to find you. The fight is now over. Round 2-4. Summon Monster 3, Lantern archon. He did not spec to fight good outsiders, so he will hit about 1/2 the time. DR 10, with a bow, lucky to do 2 damage/round. Round 5-7. Summon Monster 2, 1d3+1 eagles Round 8-12. Summon Monster 1, Eagle Round 12+ Everything has fallen apart somehow, forfeit Fight will not last 8 rounds. Quackenbush fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Jun 19, 2012 |
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Jun 19, 2012 06:04
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Wrist Watch posted:Found a source for this, if anyone's interested: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13206508&postcount=28 Bard obviously should have gone Glibness.
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Jun 19, 2012 07:56
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veekie posted:Well, solo run does limit things severely. If you want it to be more realistic you could do the same but with NPC Adepts, Experts and Warriors making up the missing members on autopilot. Oh, whoops, I thought you were suggesting that they both do it together, with just the two of them. Somehow I overlooked the "solo" part of the phrase "solo run". Actually, though, doing a short module or something with just the two of them could be a pretty solid demonstration of the party balance issues. Otherwise it kinda just becomes each of them winning through use of their respective skillsets.
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Jun 19, 2012 19:55
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Myself and my friends are gearing up to start the Slumbering Tsar campaign. The issue is that the one guy in our group who has never played insists on playing an arcane archer, the other guy is a rogue (stabby), and the third is a generic cleric. This leaves me kind of suckered into playing the melee/tank type and I wanted your input on what I should make. It's a 15 point buy, and considering that ST is supposed to be exceptionally harsh on the PCs, I was told by the DM (since I'm the most experienced PC in the group) to go ahead and "optimize" though I'm not sure how much I can do so with a 15 point buy. My first thought was to try a half orc paladin (2h falchion), using intimidate and the eldritch bloodline feats along with smite for damage (since I assume ST by it's nature will have a lot of 'evil' things). I've heard there are some "builds" of barbarian that can just wreck house but I haven't been able to figure anything out with the feats and skills that are apparent to me as particularly powerful. We also start at level 7. Any input is apppreciated.
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Jun 20, 2012 20:59
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Nigulus Rex posted:I've heard there are some "builds" of barbarian that can just wreck house but I haven't been able to figure anything out with the feats and skills that are apparent to me as particularly powerful. Roll a human barbarian, take the superstitious trait and the human alternate favored class feature that adds to your superstition bonus. At level 7, you'll be looking at a +5 to all saves vs spells, spell-like, and supernatural abilities while you're raging. The downside is that when you're raging, you have to save even against your ally's spells - however, that tends to not be too bad, since you can just wait a round for them to buff you, or drop your rage if you really need some emergency healing.
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Jun 20, 2012 21:10
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At that level, if you want to be a melee class, don't bother trying to "tank" so much as just trying to hit things as hard as possible. You're not too far from the point where AC basically stops mattering and martial classes start needing to be able to kill things in one hit/round/full-attack. Saves are an increasingly important thing to have, though, so try to buff those somehow and consider buying a Cloak of Resistance. If you want to be durable anyway, the Invulnerable Rager barbarian archetype is one of the most properly tank-y things in the game without really sacrificing much offensive power, and it relies on DR rather than AC, which is just staggeringly better (unless you run such an AC-heavy build that enemies have to crit to hit you at all, but that's harder and also turns into a huge gold sink). And really you can give almost any sort of barbarian a two-handed weapon and let them go to town and they'll be an effective melee fighter. For an actual build, I'd recommend going Dwarf, pumping your Strength up as much as you're willing to within the 15 point buy, and wielding an oversized (Large category, you get a -2 to hit and makes one-handed weapons two-handed) Dwarven Waraxe, so your base weapon damage will be 2d8+(1.5*STR). As for feats, definitely get Power Attack, but beyond that it's mostly just gravy. I'm sure other people will recommend good poo poo, and Cleave is a natural choice after Power Attack. I'm in a bit too much of a hurry or I'd crunch some numbers and try to give you actual stat suggestions, but basically "dwarven invulnerable rager with large axe" is my idea for a general outline. It's fun, too, so long as you enjoy the flavor of it and don't get bored doing more or less the same thing every round (though that same thing will often involve killing things in one hit). lesbian baphomet fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Jun 20, 2012 |
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Jun 20, 2012 21:15
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Meepo posted:Roll a human barbarian, take the superstitious trait and the human alternate favored class feature that adds to your superstition bonus. At level 7, you'll be looking at a +5 to all saves vs spells, spell-like, and supernatural abilities while you're raging. The downside is that when you're raging, you have to save even against your ally's spells - however, that tends to not be too bad, since you can just wait a round for them to buff you, or drop your rage if you really need some emergency healing. I'll have to look into it. Though superstitious is a barbarian achetype and not a trait, right? MoonwalkInvincible posted:At that level, if you want to be a melee class, don't bother trying to "tank" so much as just trying to hit things as hard as possible. You're not too far from the point where AC basically stops mattering and martial classes start needing to be able to kill things in one hit/round/full-attack. Saves are an increasingly important thing to have, though, so try to buff those somehow and consider buying a Cloak of Resistance. If you wouldn't mind tossing some number suggestions my way if you get time later, that'd be great. I mostly used the term "tank" because I meant that I will in the front, in melee range. I don't really care if it's defensive oriented, and I'd rather it be damage based to kill poo poo as fast as possible anyways (versus trying to soak it). 2d8+1.5*str seems decent I suppose. With power attack it'd be a little better, but you can still roll pretty awfully on 2d8. I don't really have much experience playing melee classes so I don't know how they mature when higher in levels.
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Jun 20, 2012 21:23
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Buying a 17 in STR and tanking your CHA/WIS will set you up pretty good if you are a dwarf. Just know that you can end up with a 5 in CHA with penalties. If you are cool with that, you can mix/max to all hell. Use your +1 from 4th level in STR and you should have decent-ish survivability and killyness. On damage, that's +6 regular, +10 w/Power attack. +9/13 in a Rage. Add in any enhancement and other feat bonuses and you can be minimum damaging for 19-20 each attack. Just my two cents.
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Jun 20, 2012 21:45
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B.B. Rodriguez posted:Buying a 17 in STR and tanking your CHA/WIS will set you up pretty good if you are a dwarf. Just know that you can end up with a 5 in CHA with penalties. If you are cool with that, you can mix/max to all hell. Use your +1 from 4th level in STR and you should have decent-ish survivability and killyness. Hm...so if I decided to tank my charisma/wis (which I suppose I could do), I'd end up with 17 str (this is all base before bonuses and minuses), 8 wis, 7 cha, but what kind of values are you advocating for dex/int/con? I assume regular int, but dex and con could go either way. EDIT: 5 in a stat feels kind of meh, not to mention that in Slumbering Tsar, having that low of a perception ability is likely to leave me dead very quickly. Morbleu fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Jun 20, 2012 |
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Jun 20, 2012 21:57
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^^ I'd advise going with a polearm instead, since you'd find Reach to be extremely valuable in your quest to turn others to meat paste without the same happening to you. Base weapon damage rarely matters a whole lot by this point, you'd be adding as much from your strength, power attack, and weapon enhancements. Race: Human is always a good pick, but Dwarf is a great idea with its bonus to basically all the stats you want, and weapon familiarity gets you a few exotics like the Dorn-Dergar and the Urgosh. Gnomes and Halflings are handy if you want to do much mounted combat indoors as well. Class: Barbarians are pretty good at the simple and hard hitting model of play as always, and work nicely with combat maneuvers like trip, etc due to high strength. Paladin adds a bit of enemy favoritism, plus giving you a bit of utility options and self healing(they're very efficient when it comes to topping off health mid combat. Weapon Bond is more generally useful than the mount if theres dungeon crawling, but you can fit a gnome/halfling and their riding dogs in a dungeon fairly easily. Rangers are nice, but really excel more at the missile combat way of things. I'd personally advise using a paladin. It gives you options other than hitting things, and makes your defenses extremely solid against special attack forms. Combat style: Big two handed reach weapon is the key, depending on whether you want a mount, it diverges from here. Feats are also tight for anyone who's not a fighter, you have about 4 of them to spend in all, 5 if you're human. In all cases you'd be taking Power Attack. No questions asked. If you have reach, try to get Combat Reflexes(with a Dex of 14 or better), followed by either Stand Still+Cleave, or one of the combat maneuvers series(Combat Expertise->Improved X->Quick X). I like Dirty Trick myself, if you can make it stick, Quick Dirty Trick does wonders for crippling the target. If you are mounted instead, things get simpler. It'd involve a lance, Power Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, and Spirited Charge.
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Jun 20, 2012 21:59
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