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Bohemian Nights posted:That was really cool! Thanks for sharing. I wish people made more jits videos like this. Yuns fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Jul 7, 2012 |
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Jul 7, 2012 17:48
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nemoulette posted:A nice video of a friend of mine. Goddamn I love Vimeo. Awesome video!
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Jul 7, 2012 22:35
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Yuns posted:I've been working on a similar style BJJ video for a while but I doubt I'll have anything ready to show for many many months yet. Awesome! Make sure you share it when you have something cool to show! 
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Jul 8, 2012 00:31
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Pretty cool stuff - are there any southern California grappling goons out there? I've been meaning to do a video like that for a while, but I don't know a lot of people who would want to participate in this kind of thing.
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Jul 8, 2012 00:48
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So apparently Dean Lister heelhooked Cyborg Abreu 8 minutes into their superfight match on Saturday. Lister is tearing it up lately.
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Jul 10, 2012 04:49
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fatherdog posted:So apparently Dean Lister heelhooked Cyborg Abreu 8 minutes into their superfight match on Saturday. Lister is tearing it up lately. Lister is awesome. It just seems like every time he's on a streak, he suddenly gets lazy and does nothing for a year or two.
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Jul 10, 2012 17:48
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Subparr posted:Lister is awesome. It just seems like every time he's on a streak, he suddenly gets lazy and does nothing for a year or two. Speaking of which, why did he quit the UFC?
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Jul 10, 2012 18:00
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Fat Twitter Man posted:Speaking of which, why did he quit the UFC? He probably had to do things that weren't jiu jitsu and said gently caress that.
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Jul 10, 2012 18:15
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FYI, there is now a subforum for the 2012 Olympic Games. If somebody would like to put together a decent OP regarding prospects and rules for Wrestling (I think Thoguh was doing this?) and Judo, please feel free.
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Jul 12, 2012 04:07
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fatherdog posted:FYI, there is now a subforum for the 2012 Olympic Games. If somebody would like to put together a decent OP regarding prospects and rules for Wrestling (I think Thoguh was doing this?) and Judo, please feel free. Up and running, though the subforum showed up earlier than I expected so I still need to work on the weight by weight previews. I should have time this weekend or early next week to flesh it out. Please anybody let me know if you think there is anything else I should add/remove from the thread. I figure it'll be a few weeks before anybody actually looks at it. Thoguh fucked around with this message at 13:36 on Jul 12, 2012 |
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Jul 12, 2012 11:42
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo6sG1UqQAs Bio of Helio.
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Jul 18, 2012 06:22
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How much do you think it chaps Ryan Hall's rear end that when you google Ryan Hall you get a million links to this guy? http://deadspin.com/5926710/can-god-coach-an-american-marathoner-to-olympic-gold
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Jul 18, 2012 20:17
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BlindSite posted:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo6sG1UqQAs The Mysterious Count Coma who taught them the secret art of Jiu-Jitsu?
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Jul 18, 2012 21:05
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Jigoro Kano might roll in his grave if he heard that he wasn't being counted in the Gracie lineage  (as Mitsuyo Maeda's instructor)
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Jul 18, 2012 21:10
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Yahoo put out a slideshow entitled "Intimate Wrestling Moments" in preperation for the Olympics. Our Gay Sport Thoguh fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Jul 19, 2012 |
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Jul 19, 2012 14:06
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49 pictures of look at that dudes crotch it's like riight up in his face lol
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Jul 19, 2012 14:22
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Chortles posted:Jigoro Kano might roll in his grave if he heard that he wasn't being counted in the Gracie lineage I doubt it. No one seems to recognize the people Kano trained with. The Gracie family, to be fair pioneered and developed their own thing from what Maeda had taught them. Similar to how Kano pioneered his own art from what he was taught. Judo and BJJ in general could certainly due with a bit more ackknowledgement and respect between one another. However I think 'purists' in each sport who have been lied to and given into inaccurate histories over the years really don't know better. **Edit Actually I'm trying to get a photo of Kano to get framed in my instructor's gym. To go next to Helio's photo. Also looking for photos of Carlos Gracie and Mitsuyo Maeda. Senor P. fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Jul 20, 2012 |
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Jul 20, 2012 04:27
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most people I train with will readily admit the relationship between the two. Then again I am under the Machados and they are way more laid back about that stuff.
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Jul 20, 2012 04:32
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Senor P. posted:I doubt it. No one seems to recognize the people Kano trained with. To hear the Gracie's tell it Helio invented electricity and drove Godzilla from the land with an arm bar. They deserve respect for the augments they made to a solid system, but they laud themselves far too much imo.
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Jul 20, 2012 04:42
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BlindSite posted:To hear the Gracie's tell it Helio invented electricity and drove Godzilla from the land with an arm bar. Without Rorion breating that drum so hard in the 80s, instead of a Gracie Academy there'd be Gracie Brothers Honda. They're more about the brand than anything else; always have been. (rener gracie, dressed in a suit coat and polo shirt, gazes first at the ZERO DOWN ZERO INTEREST sign painted on a new Accord, then at the camera "DAAAAAAANG") Julio Cesar Fatass fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Jul 20, 2012 |
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Jul 20, 2012 05:06
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BlindSite posted:To hear the Gracie's tell it Helio invented electricity and drove Godzilla from the land with an arm bar.
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Jul 20, 2012 09:18
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Julio Cesar Fatass posted:Without Rorion breating that drum so hard in the 80s, instead of a Gracie Academy there'd be Gracie Brothers Honda. They're more about the brand than anything else; always have been. when my father created the ULTIMATE HONDA DEALERSHIP in 1993, he showed the power of GRACIE FINANCING to the world of auto buying, and now every dealer in the world has added it to their arsenal
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Jul 20, 2012 09:54
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What I've always understood (possibly incorrectly) is that Judo was often called "Kano Jiu Jitsu" in the late 19th/earcly 20th century. So in that respect it would make sense that Helio, having developed his own variant, would call it "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu". But especially given how totally obsessed with lineage BJJ tends to be it is weird that many of them just totally ignore that Helio learned from a Judoka. But it's no more wierd than claims I've seen including stuff like that the Gracies invented the gi/kimono. In my opinion the biggest difference between Judo and BJJ is just the the scoring system. All the differences pretty much stem from people training what scores points. Thoguh fucked around with this message at 11:21 on Jul 20, 2012 |
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Jul 20, 2012 11:15
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Yuns posted:Also this wasn't a mere augment to judo any more than Kano was merely simplifying jujitsu. This was a major move forward in me waza thinking. Not really, Judo back then had a much larger emphasis on groundwork than it does now. And Kosen Judo is still a thing in Japan for clubs that never took a liking to the rule changes since world war II. Also, you mean ne waza.
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Jul 20, 2012 11:20
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The M was a typo due to autocorrect but you are totally wrong about Kosen judo being equivalent to BJJ. I spent a bit of time in my youth chasing down old judo texts back before anyone in the US had heard of BJJ when I did judo and am currently a brown belt in BJJ and the historical record does not contain the more developed theoretical underpinnings of BJJ today although it does include the submissions. Judo had more emphasis on ne waza in the past and does have a ground game but not the same developed guard game of BJJ. Is BJJ a derivative of judo. Of course it is. But it is not just a collection of older judo ground work.
Yuns fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Jul 20, 2012 |
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Jul 20, 2012 12:14
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Yuns posted:The M was a typo due to autocorrect but you are totally wrong about Kosen judo being equivalent to BJJ. I spent a bit of time in my youth chasing down old judo texts back before anyone in the US had heard of BJJ when I did judo and am currently a brown belt in BJJ and the historical record does not contain the more developed theoretical underpinnings of BJJ today although it does include the submissions. Judo had more emphasis on ne waza in the past and does have a ground game but not the same developed guard game of BJJ. Is BJJ a derivative of judo. Of course it is. But it is not just a collection of older judo ground work. It's not identical no. BJJ has certainly diverged. What I was using it to point out was that what the Gracie's did was far from being as revolutionary a step as what Kano did. Kano changed everything about how martial arts were taught and Judo was a huge, huge step from traditional Jiu Jitsu. BJJ was a small incrimental step from Judo. Now 80 years later they have both evolved in different directions. But I'd feel comfortable saying that they both bear about equal resemblance to what Judo looked like in the early 1900s.
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Jul 20, 2012 13:10
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My favorite comment on BJJ and judo was from Carlson, who said that Judo and BJJ should be the same thing, but the Japanese forgot their newaza and brazilians are too lazy to practice throws.
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Jul 20, 2012 16:10
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Okay I can definitely agree with you there Thoguh if you are talking about Kano's pedological innovations, the invention of the belt system, the judogi, the emphasis on safe randori etc.
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Jul 20, 2012 17:45
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Very interesting stuff guys. Thanks for the history lesson.
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Jul 21, 2012 01:12
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Its always interesting to hear about the history and developments, but its always so vague. Can anyone be more specific about techniques and methodology that was actually done in these innovations? For example, its often said Kano made Judo more trainable, and less injury prone. What did he specifically take out of the old school jiu jitsu that made it so? Is it a broad thing like, when someone taps, just stop, and working only certain chokes and submissions that don't arent easy to injure you? or are we talking about a mindset of not killing eachother when we train and to have mats and a mentality of training instead of fighting? Also, what did Helio exactly do with BJJ to make it more "leverage" based thats different than Judo? Are we talking about the guard developments of sweeps and positions, or a broad mindset, and what exactly is entailed in this mindset? Just less of an emphasis on wrestling style explosive power and more position and survival mentality instead?
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Jul 22, 2012 19:58
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swagger like us posted:Its always interesting to hear about the history and developments, but its always so vague. Can anyone be more specific about techniques and methodology that was actually done in these innovations? Before Kano, most jiujitsu was just practiced via non-resistant drills. Kano introduced the concept of randori, which was probably the most important innovation in martial arts in the past 100 years or so. quote:Also, what did Helio exactly do with BJJ to make it more "leverage" based thats different than Judo? This is all horseshit from Rorian and Kid Peligro. Helio didn't do poo poo to make it "more leverage based". The big change between Judo and BJJ was the codification of positional advantage and the "position before submission" mentality, and that was a joint effort from Carlos and Helio and all the other original brothers.
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Jul 22, 2012 20:10
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Bjj focused a lot on the guard (maybe less than modern bjj but still more than Judo), which would make sense since that is where a weaker/smaller guy would find himself most of the time. So it isn't more leverage or anything like that, just more focused on getting off your back by sweeping or submitting. Kano made jiu-jitsu more trainable by standardizing the curriculum of techniques, which meant dropping redundant moves, low percentage stuff or things based on just manhandling people. He then dropped techniques you can't practice like eye gouging and wrist breaking on the assumption that a dude who can actually do less lethal things is a way better fighter than someone who can theoretically do a lot of lethal poo poo but has never done it. His final piece, what Fatherdog already mentioned, was he had his students do all these things in an alive active manner to learn how to apply them to resisting opponents. A lot of it was also kind of a PR job. Jiu-jitsu was dying, it was seen as thuggish and outdated, a relic of feudal Japan. Kano cleaned it up by removing all the dirty bits and presented Judo as a way to stay fit and learn life lessons in a safe respectable environment.
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Jul 22, 2012 23:28
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Xguard86 posted:A lot of it was also kind of a PR job. Jiu-jitsu was dying, it was seen as thuggish and outdated, a relic of feudal Japan. Kano cleaned it up by removing all the dirty bits and presented Judo as a way to stay fit and learn life lessons in a safe respectable environment.
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Jul 23, 2012 04:41
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Chortles posted:Oddly enough, this reminds me of "the reformation of MMA to emerge from the bad old days of NHB," albeit there was the social context of modernization in the Meiji period (as well as the identity crisis over what to adopt and what to hold onto). Was it Zuffa or another promotion who spearheaded the rebranding of NHB as MMA?
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Jul 23, 2012 15:49
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Zuffa. They had the juice with the Nevada comissions to open the door to establishing a ruleset that would allow them to hold fights legally. Everyone over 35 and half of those below it still think MMA is a disgusting blood sport where you can rip of a dude's dick so its not quite Judo level respectable. Also of note: The Tokyo police held a tournament in 1886 (1896?)to decide what martial art to adopt for their cops. Judo, despite not having any real striking or eyegouging ballripping wiped the floor with every other style. So this whole "too dangerous to train" poo poo has been disproven for over 100 years, but screwballs still trot that tired line out all the time.
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Jul 24, 2012 04:38
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Interestingly, Brian Watson's Kano biography apparently has randori preceding Kano and judo but having been a training method of Kano's first instructor as well.
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Jul 24, 2012 06:08
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Thoguh posted:Yahoo put out a slideshow entitled "Intimate Wrestling Moments" in preperation for the Olympics. #25 is such a great shot what was probably a gut wrench.
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Jul 24, 2012 13:13
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fatherdog posted:Before Kano, most jiujitsu was just practiced via non-resistant drills. Kano introduced the concept of randori, which was probably the most important innovation in martial arts in the past 100 years or so. -Partner practice with the senior on the receiving end, if their juniors are not able to do the technique, then it doesnt happen. At a very low level, resistance might be 'light'. In BJJ if you have someone that is making an obvious mistake during a guard passing drill, maybe you sweep them to show them and they try again. The same very much applies in 'good' traditional jiujitsu schools. If they're making mistakes in passing your guard, then they won't pass your guard. As they get better you ramp up the intensity of it. There is a very good article written on this from a weapons perspective here. -Randori was practiced seperately. I've also heard of various accounts of folk style/informalized sumo being practiced a lot by folks prior to World War 2. Similar to how in the U.S. we used to have a lot of people growing up 'wrasslin' (Maybe this is a midwest thing, but it was not WWF nonsense.) Of course there are exceptions to the above. There is no one size fits all description for the various schools of bujutsu. Later on as Judo grew in popularity, there were a number of schools that eliminated randori. Why? Because they didn't need to do it inhouse. In the early days, Judo was very much a competitive outlet for a folks from a number of different backgrounds. There were a couple of highly ranked Judoka/koryu folks and as they got older I can imagine themselves thinking "Why do I need to do randori at my personal dojo when we do randori at the Kodokan twice a week?" I'm aware of a number of a couple of modern schools that don't need to do randori during practice. They both have Judo or BJJ programs where folks can do randori. It is true that there are a number of schools and instructors today that just preserve material and don't do any randori and their arts suffer for it. But that has more to do with the fact that their practicioners are elderly, and fewer practicioners having backgrounds in combative sports where you actually did some fighting. Chortles posted:Interestingly, Brian Watson's Kano biography apparently has randori preceding Kano and judo but having been a training method of Kano's first instructor as well. Xguard86 posted:Also of note: The Tokyo police held a tournament in 1886 (1896?)to decide what martial art to adopt for their cops. Judo, despite not having any real striking or eyegouging ballripping wiped the floor with every other style. So this whole "too dangerous to train" poo poo has been disproven for over 100 years, but screwballs still trot that tired line out all the time. Thread 1, thread 2. The whole 'too dangerous to train' thing is vastly over blown. Most legitimate schools don't teach stupid poo poo like eye gouging. But it doesn't take a genius to figure out why you might not want to do some kind of spinal lock or throw someone on their head. As for Judo's striking techniques, of course its not at the level of boxing or even modern day karate. But the kata do have some basic techniques, which were on par for the time Judo was being developed. Senor P. fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Jul 25, 2012 |
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Jul 25, 2012 04:23
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I admit I am not a judo history expert (or even amateur rank). These other schools were probably not doing as much randori as Judo, or was the Judo innovation the standardized curriculum with more science/physics principles? Surely they did something new that let them walk all over every other school. What do people who know about this think was the big difference?
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Jul 25, 2012 14:45
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Judoforum is a horrible place that no one should even actually go to.
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Jul 25, 2012 16:06
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