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jojoinnit posted:So I got this response: 1. Why is health care for all bad? Should some people just die if they are too poor to afford medication or care? 2. Define what specifically you are taking issue with. What specific provision is raising taxes unfairly on what group of people you feel are rich, and why is this unfair or unjust? 3. Okay and? What's the point of this? That people are taxed differently depending upon how they organize their legal status? 4. "My wife" is a fine anecdote but not much of a verifiable source for the whole of our medical profession. Do you have a survey of hospitals nationally you can cite, preferably from an unbiased or independent organization? 5. Specifically the mandate is considered a tax penalty because of how it is assessed. Only individuals who don't have medical insurance after 2014 and that don't meet exemption requirements or receive assistance due to poverty will be subject to this. That's hardly "everybody". 6. What gap? The income and wealth disparity gaps that expanded massively over the last 30 years? Because those are big gaps. 7. All the more reason for single payer. 8. Citation needed. "People I talk to" is not an adequate representative sample of the business community nation-wide. 9. How is being pro-union for government anti-business and socialist? Just saying so doesn't make something true, maybe you should explain your reasoning. Why do government employees not deserve the ability to bargain as a group for better working conditions and pay like they can in the private sector? Isn't that stripping away their freedoms if you remove that choice? Lastly, if we're talking tax rates maybe we can jump them back to when we didn't have a socialist in charge. How about Reagan tax rates? Back then the top tax rate was 50% (it's 35% right now, and even lower for capital gains), so we must've been communist Russia in the early 80's apparently. Mo_Steel fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Jul 17, 2012 |
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Jul 17, 2012 19:43
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Bobby Malone posted:I'd like my mail delivered on Christmas, Good Friday, Thanksgiving & Easter. After all, it's just another day. Ah, yes, the long recesses of Congress are based around those two important christian holidays of Christmas and Summer. What would crack me up is if this actually happened, and the author of this email found out that the only thing stopping Wal-Mart from demanding they work on Christmas for no overtime pay was the fact that it was a federal holiday.
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Jul 17, 2012 19:55
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cbirdsong posted:Some people have invented a Gmail add-on that automatically checks for keywords in common forwards, and then automatically presents links that debunk them: http://www.lazytruth.com This is absolutely fantastic. Signed up. jojoinnit posted:So I got this response: Are roads for all Socialist too? This seems to be a really broad definition of Socialism as "anything we do together" or maybe just "anything I don't like". A true Socialist health care program would have abolished private health insurance and created a Medicare-For-All style approach. Or it would have gone even further and gotten rid of health insurance altogether, taken over all hospitals and doctors' offices and just made them all government employees. But as long as private companies own and control the businesses, its not really "socialist" its just "regulated" which isn't the same thing. quote:2. So is "raising taxes on the rich" (and the definition of rich can easily be changed - and has been) Taxes are at historic lows. I'm not pushing for an endless drive to tax the rich more and more. I'd just like to see us return to where we were in the 1990's. You can hardly claim that the tax rates of the 1990's inhibited economic growth. Once we're back to where we were we can figure out the right amount of taxing and spending we need to move forward. But right now, tax revenues are way too low. quote:3. Small business owners have been looked at as "rich individuals" if they are incorporated a certain way No, they're looked at as "rich individuals" if they bring home a certain amount of money regardless of whether they run their own business or a corporate executive. Its the money you take home at the end of the day that matters. And there are almost no "small business owners" who fall under this umbrella. quote:4. Hospitals are afraid to hire more nurses due to the unknown cost of the health care law. With a wife who works in a hospital, i know this first hand What part of the law is it that they're worried about? If anything, with more people having insurance they should be worried about not having enough nurses. And while I can't speak to the specifics of the hospital where your wife works, nationally the health care industry has been gaining jobs like no tomorrow. I read the BLS job report at the start of each month, and month after month healthcare industry consistently adds jobs; whether its 13,000 one month, or 40,000 another. If you're looking for work, healthcare is one of the best areas to get into. The BLS puts the reports up online if you wish to check yourself. quote:5. Health care law was deemed a tax, by our supreme court. That's a tax on everybody, not just rich No, the individual mandate was ruled Constitutional under Congresses power to tax. The entire law was not deemed a tax. And the tax is only on certain people who refuse to get insurance. However, if you're poor you're exempt. If you're middle class and insurance is too expensive, you're exempt. If you're rich, and you just refuse to be covered, then you get hit by a tax penalty. It's not a tax on everybody. quote:6. He has created a gap with his constant class warfare (evidenced by his many public speeches on the topic) against "the rich"; "job creators"; and "corporations" No, the gap was already there. He's just pointing out that its a problem. 20% of the nation owning 85% of all wealth, while 40% of the nation owns less than 1% of all wealth. That's huge gap; and a huge problem; a problem that has been getting worse for decades. Just because Obama talked about it didn't suddenly cause it to spring into existence. The problem was already there. And this doesn't actually make a person anti-business. You see, the wealth disparity can be fixed such that people who own successful businesses can keep getting richer, without crushing everyone else underneath. It's not a crazy idea, we did it from the end of WWII until the 1980's. As the economy prospered, everyone got richer. Now, as the economy grows, most of that growth goes to the top only. It's not about dragging down those at the top, its about making sure everyone grows together. quote:7. I have directly paid more for health care this year, since previous items that benefited from FSA are not allowed any more I can half agree here. I agree because I think that part of the law is stupid and hope it will be taken out in the future. But I only half agree because I don't see how something some Representative in Congress stuck into the law is proof of Obama being anti-business. Do you really think Obama was going to veto his biggest legislative accomplishment over slightly annoying FSA/HSA restrictions? quote:8. Small businesses are afraid to hire due to the unknown cost of health care for employees, as well as unknowns about taxes. Since I work with small businesses, startups, and recruiters, I know this first hand. This is just silly. The law has been on the books for over two years. There's no excuse for it to be "unknown". If your business has less than 50 full-time employees you don't have to provide them with insurance (which would cover most small businesses and startups). And if you're bigger than that, you can just pay the penalty of less than $3000 per employee, which is vastly cheaper than giving them healthcare. The tax thing is even sillier. If you're personal tax rate is determining whether or not you hire, you're a crappy business owner. Whether the top marginal rate is 35% vs 39% shouldn't be a factor in your decision to hire more workers. If hiring 20 more employees is going to net you $100,000 in profit, that's going to give you either $65,000 or $61,000 extra after taxes. Either way, it's a good idea. If hiring them will cost you more money than they're bring in (no profit/loss of profit), then don't hire. And again, those tax rates didn't really stop small businesses from hiring in the 1990's. And much much higher rates (70%+) didn't stop them from hiring in the 1950's or 1960's. quote:9. being pro unions for government employees is both anti business and socialist No, it's being pro-workers; which isn't the same as being anti-business. You can want a business to be successful without exploiting its workforce. quote:The list can get longer, but I'm bored. Today's tax rates are lower than they've been in decades. What exactly am I supposed to take from that that proves he's anti-business or a socialist? And yes, they are called the "Bush Era Tax Breaks" for a reason. The reason they're called that is because they were tax *breaks* that were only supposed to last for the *Bush Era*. They were supposed to expire years ago, they were temporary stimulus measures in response to the recessions in 2001 and 2003. They weren't supposed to go on forever.
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Jul 17, 2012 20:55
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Got this from my mother in law My dog sleeps about 20 hours a day. He has his food prepared for him. He can eat whenever he wants, 24/7/365. His meals are provided at no cost to him. He visits the doctor once a year for his checkup, and again during the year if any medical needs arise. For this he pays nothing, and nothing is required of him. He lives in a nice neighborhood in a house that is much larger than he needs, but he is not required to do any upkeep. If he makes a mess, someone else cleans it up. He has his choice of luxurious places to sleep. He receives these accommodations absolutely free. He is living like a king, and has absolutely no expenses whatsoever. All of his costs are picked up by others who go out and earn a living every day. I was thinking about all this …… suddenly it hit me like a brick. My dog is a Democrat. Oh family. I offhandedly joked moving to Canada and she almost screamed "But it's socialist."
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Jul 17, 2012 21:27
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Send her the picture showing that generally the red states take more federal money than they generate, while the blue states give more. The whole idea that red states are fiscally responsible is patently wrong, yet nobody really ever calls the Republicans out on that.
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Jul 17, 2012 21:55
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King Ramses posted:Got this from my mother in law I honestly thought this was going to turn into a "support are troops" email.
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Jul 17, 2012 22:26
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Sarion posted:Good responses Keshik! Thanks. In case anyone cares, this is the response I got: quote:How many businesses have you started, Keshik? How many private sector jobs have you had, Keshik? 
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Jul 17, 2012 23:55
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Keshik posted:Thanks. In case anyone cares, this is the response I got:
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Jul 17, 2012 23:59
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King Ramses posted:Got this from my mother in law
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Jul 18, 2012 00:24
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My toddler is a Democrat.
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Jul 18, 2012 00:50
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Facebook Dude posted:How many businesses have you started, Keshik? How many private sector jobs have you had, Keshik? The same place all understanding is derived from, Logic and Reasoning. Now would you care to address the points I have made or would you prefer to continue making ad-hom style fallacies.
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Jul 18, 2012 00:58
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I've actually got a rule I force myself to abide by, and it's to never be condescending in debate, especially when the person I'm talking to is being condescending or similarly rude. When you do that, it's just that much easier for it to become adversarial. Granted, they always start in with the ad-homs and ridiculous bullshit anyway, but at least I can reassure myself that not only is my position the superior, but that I defended it in a mature and rational way. Unless I break that rule by not arguing at all and just posting the word 'fart'
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Jul 18, 2012 01:05
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Keshik posted:I've actually got a rule I force myself to abide by, and it's to never be condescending in debate, especially when the person I'm talking to is being condescending or similarly rude. When you do that, it's just that much easier for it to become adversarial. Granted, they always start in with the ad-homs and ridiculous bullshit anyway, but at least I can reassure myself that not only is my position the superior, but that I defended it in a mature and rational way. Yes I admit that does come off as condescending. but you could make the same point politely if you wanted (I certainly wouldn't bother). This assumes that you even wanted to continue the argument (I certainly wouldn't bother).
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Jul 18, 2012 01:35
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quote:How many businesses have you started, Keshik? How many private sector jobs have you had, Keshik? I'd probably just say something like this: Now you've ceased to provide arguments in support of your views or to provide serious rebuttals to mine and instead are attacking me directly. I graciously accept your reluctant defeat. Good day to you sir,  Or, if you don't want to be condescending rear end in a top hat: Those questions aren't really relevant. There are plenty of people with years of experience in multiple private sector jobs within corporations and small businesses who would agree with me (I should know, I am one!). Meanwhile there are plenty of kids 18-22 who haven't worked a job in their life who would agree with you (I should know, I was one!). Would those with decades of experience in the private sector who disagree with you immediately be correct simply because of their experience? Would those who agree with you automatically be wrong simply because they have no work experience? No, of course not. So instead, lets focus on topic instead of each other. Based on your experience in the private sector, how well do you think the businesses you have worked for or with would have succeeded if 80% of the country was illiterate?
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Jul 18, 2012 01:53
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The problem is that the right, in a fit of strategic brilliance, has demonized the core of calm rationalized debate: critical thinking and higher education. Now it's "ohhh look at you mr. liberal elitist!" It's pretty much the basis of the entire right's argumentative process. "Find what they use to defeat our arguments...then just make it seem immoral or wrong."
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Jul 18, 2012 02:15
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Leon Einstein posted:These tax breaks intentionally came with an expiration date. Funny how conservatives refuse to acknowledge that. Everybody knows the purpose of expiring laws is to perpetually renew them though.
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Jul 18, 2012 02:16
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Sarion posted:I'd probably just say something like this:
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Jul 18, 2012 02:17
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I just used to say "If you're going to use a personal attack on me I'm going to end the debate. Not that I'm thin-skinned or really care that you think that, but the only way that I ever respond to personal attacks is by returning them, and I'm not going to have that kind of an exchange on Facebook." Obviously adjusted for context based on whether I know the person. I usually ignore the first few inevitable jabs or maybe even return (more like answer) little ones, but if it starts to get really blatant and I don't feel like dealing with that person anymore I play that card. Always ends the discussion, with or without apology. babies havin rabies fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Jul 18, 2012 |
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Jul 18, 2012 02:38
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 Now, a few things. I'm M and he is J. We've been friends for a little over fifteen years now, and even after he joined the extreme right wing, I considered him to be among my closest friends. This says more about how few friends I have than about his capacity to insult me, as you might glean from this exchange I'm sharing here. It's a little upsetting to have my 'university existence' demeaned by this person who has known me for as long as he has for a number of reasons, but chiefly they are because he knows that I know, because we went to the same university as undergraduates, that he failed out of the school where I earned my BA, and that he failed out again from the school where I am now earning my MA. I don't bring this up because I'm not an rear end in a top hat, but goddammit loving gently caress. I can't even understand what the hell he's even saying in his third post there. I'm not posting this ongoing thing as a way of going 'hey look at me own this guy on facebook.' I'm genuinely baffled by this rhetoric because it is a mixture of ad-hominems, references to insane abstract concepts totally irrelevant to the discussion, and attacking things I haven't said. I cannot parse this poo poo. What the gently caress? The President said something that was undeniably loving true and it becomes an argument? What?! Keshik fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Jul 18, 2012 |
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Jul 18, 2012 05:52
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It's all about how it's framed, and places like foxnews are framing it like this:quote:The Republican presidential candidate seized on Obama's gaffe Friday in which he suggested businesses owe their success in large part to government investment and said to business owners, "you didn't build that." http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/07/17/romney-obama-wants-americans-to-be-ashamed-success/
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Jul 18, 2012 05:55
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Thank you for that link, I copy pasted the rebuttal from the Obama for America campaign. I should really pay more attention to the poo poo the Obama campaign emails me but I just reflexively delete it because I don't want to read another request for money.
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Jul 18, 2012 06:03
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Obama needs to do a speech about how Republicans hate America because they're instituting and defending policies that actually kill actual Americans, whether it's Nikki Haley vetoing aid to members of domestic violence and rape, Michelle Bachmann preventing educators from intervening as gay kids are bullied to death, Rick Perry blocking Medicaid, Jan Brewer slashing Medicaid transplant funding, Eric Cantor blocking funds to relieve Joplin, or the entire RNC slobbering over the boots of BP when they burned their workers alive. They aren't indifferent. If they were indifferent they'd be sitting at home in their mansions on their big piles of money. No, they want to be the ones who personally rip out the feeding tubes and watch the light leave your eyes. Dr Christmas fucked around with this message at 09:35 on Jul 18, 2012 |
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Jul 18, 2012 06:08
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Keshik posted:stupid poo poo from an idiot Tell him that if he's serious about never needing the Government he should should wind up his company and assume personal responsibility for all its liabilities, rather than hiding behind a Government-created legal construct to screw over his creditors.
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Jul 18, 2012 08:41
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In addition to my day job (which I keep because it provides insurance, pays incredibly well, and the work is mostly interesting), I own two side businesses. I would love for more government aid in building my businesses. In fact, the biggest thing preventing me from working on them full time is because there is no true universal health care in America. And if my businesses are wildly successful and make me very wealthy, I would have no issue paying my share back to the government to help other businesses do the same. If Republicans were truly interested in helping small businesses get off the ground, they would immediately get real universal health care implemented because that would reduce what I imagine is a lot of small businesses biggest expenses.
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Jul 18, 2012 09:51
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Darrell loving Issa put out a condescending wonka about the "you didn't build that" line on his Facebook. Think about that for a second. Savor it.
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Jul 18, 2012 13:43
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Every time I've dealt with government it's been negative. *drives home, turns on light switch, drinks glass of water and posts on the internet*
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Jul 18, 2012 13:47
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Also, can't you turn his argument around. You've never had to run for office and run the government so you really can't complain. It's a stupid argument, we can look at things from the outside and say, well gee this doesn't seem to be working.
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Jul 18, 2012 13:50
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You know you live in an Upside-down Land if... You can get arrested for expired tags on your car but not for being in the country illegally. ====================== You know you live in an Upside-down Land if... Your government believes that the best way to eradicate trillions of dollars of debt is to spend trillions more of our money. ====================== I LOVED THIS ONE. You know you live in an Upside-down Land if... The Supreme Court of the United States can rule that lower courts cannot display the 10 Commandments in their courtroom, while sitting in front of a display of the 10 Commandments. ====================== You know you live in an Upside-down Land if... Children are forcibly removed from parents who appropriately discipline them while children of"underprivileged" drug addicts are left to rot in filth infested cesspools. ====================== You know you live in an Upside-down Land if... Working class Americans pay for their own health care (and the health care of everyone else) while unmarried women are free to have child after child on the "State's" dime while never being held responsible for their own choices. ====================== You know you live in an Upside-down Land if... Hard work and success are rewarded with higher taxes and government intrusion, while slothful, lazy behavior is rewarded with EBT cards, WIC checks, Medicaid and subsidized housing. ====================== You know you live in an Upside-down Land if... The government's plan for getting people back to work is to provide 99 weeks of unemployment checks (to not work). ====================== I LOVE OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS, TOO You know you live in an Upside-down Land if... Politicians think that stripping away the amendments to the constitution is really protecting the rights of the people. ====================== You know you live in an Upside-down Land if... The rights of the Government come before the rights of the individual. ====================== You know you live in an Upside-down Land if... Parents believe the State is responsible for providing for their children. ====================== You know you live in an Upside-down Land if... You pay your mortgage faithfully, denying yourself the newest big screen TV while your neighbor defaults on his mortgage (while buying iphones, TV's and new cars) and the government forgives his debt and reduces his mortgage (with your tax dollars). ====================== You know you live in an Upside-down Land if... Being stripped of the ability to defend yourself makes you "safe". ====================== LOVED THIS ONE TOO You know you live in an Upside-down Land if... You have to have your parents signature to go on a school field trip but not to get an abortion. ====================== AND THIS ONE You know you live in an Upside-down Land if... An 80 year old woman can be stripped searched by the TSA but a Muslim woman in a burqa is only subject to having her neck and head searched.
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Jul 18, 2012 13:52
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Iceberg-Slim posted:You know you live in an Upside-down Land if... There's a lot in these idiotic lists to be outraged by, but speaking as someone who's spent weeks working on nothing, nothing but appellate cases of girls having to petition to circumvent parental notification laws due to incest... Anyone that opposes those exceptions is inarguably in favor of fathers raping their daughters. Full stop, no disputing it, just loving die you utter scum.
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Jul 18, 2012 14:15
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Keshik posted:There's a lot in these idiotic lists to be outraged by, but speaking as someone who's spent weeks working on nothing, nothing but appellate cases of girls having to petition to circumvent parental notification laws due to incest... Related to that: quote:
Guess you don't become an individual until you turn 18.
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Jul 18, 2012 14:35
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Iceberg-Slim posted:You know you live in an Upside-down Land if... That whole list is reprehensible or terrible, but this one is confusing. Why is  underprivileged in scare quotes? Are drug addicts who live in filth infested cesspools privileged?
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Jul 18, 2012 14:42
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Keshik do yourself a favor and cut that guy out of your life. He doesn't seem like he wants to be your friend but instead anchors you and disrespects you. You don't need him and he refuses to be educated, especially by someone he knows because for a right winger accepting new or different information from people they know is shameful and treason.
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Jul 18, 2012 14:43
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Mo_Steel posted:That whole list is reprehensible or terrible, but this one is confusing. Why is They're black.
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Jul 18, 2012 14:49
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Radish posted:
You're an individual before birth, then you're nothing until you're not poor, at which point you get your personhood ceded back to you. It's why corporations are people, they can afford to buy personhood. It's how Texans can be against abortion but love leading the nation in executions. Executed prisoners aren't people.
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Jul 18, 2012 14:51
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Mo_Steel posted:That whole list is reprehensible or terrible, but this one is confusing. Why is How can you be underprivileged if you can afford drugs? That's the logic. That's it. Full stop.
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Jul 18, 2012 14:57
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CellBlock posted:You're an individual before birth, then you're nothing until you're not poor, at which point you get your personhood ceded back to you. It's why corporations are people, they can afford to buy personhood. They're black. 
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Jul 18, 2012 14:58
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That reminds me of that info-graph that listed "luxury items" like refrigerators, microwaves and TVs and exactly how long not buying those would feed your family (hint not long).
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Jul 18, 2012 14:59
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I absolutely cannot understand these people who say "wait until you get in the real world" to university students. I live in the "real world." I own a house, I work in the private sector, and I run my own small business on the side. I used to be a lovely lolbertarian when I was 18, but now that I live in the real world I can see that everything that I have is built on the backs of other people and would absolutely not function if we didn't have a government. I mean yeah, it sucks when tax time comes and I have to fork over a lot of money to the government (especially since I live in socialist Canada) but at least I didn't get bankrupted when I had to take some cardiology tests. At least I don't have to pay for a private security force to protect my meagre wealth from hordes of the destitute. Keshik, your friend literally believes what I believed when I was a dumb poo poo teenager.
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Jul 18, 2012 15:00
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Radish posted:That reminds me of that info-graph that listed "luxury items" like refrigerators, microwaves and TVs and exactly how long not buying those would feed your family (hint not long). Yea, the food would spoil pretty quick without that fridge.
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Jul 18, 2012 15:02
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Iceberg-Slim posted:You know you live in an Upside-down Land if...
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Jul 18, 2012 15:03
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