|
Nirvikalpa posted:But with novels, I enjoy the process of reading, but I end up revolted by the subject matter most of the time or I can't understand it. I think this may be one of the most bizarre things I've ever hard anyone say.
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 05:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 19:46 |
|
|
What's the point of having an Advice and Discussion thread if you're just going to tar and feather anyone who is actually asking advice or have a flaw that you personally have a petty gripe with?
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 05:53
|
|
|
SkySteak posted:What's the point of having an Advice and Discussion thread if you're just going to tar and feather anyone who is actually asking advice or have a flaw that you personally have a petty gripe with? Because as people have already said, asking how to write if you don't like to read is like asking how to paint if you don't like looking at art or asking how to play music if you don't like to listen to it. Anyone with sense is going to be incredulous as first, and then if the issue is pressed they're going to get pissed. It's not a request for advice, it's a request for validation of an idiotic choice.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 05:56
|
|
|
SkySteak posted:What's the point of having an Advice and Discussion thread if you're just going to tar and feather anyone who is actually asking advice or have a flaw that you personally have a petty gripe with? nervgulper or something posted:Hey, I really hate naked people and am revolted by the idea of sex! The smell of vagina and the sight of my own penis make me literally sick to my stomach! That's basically what he posted, but about fiction writing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 06:03
|
|
|
Oxxidation posted:Because as people have already said, asking how to write if you don't like to read is like asking how to paint if you don't like looking at art or asking how to play music if you don't like to listen to it. Anyone with sense is going to be incredulous as first, and then if the issue is pressed they're going to get pissed. It's not a request for advice, it's a request for validation of an idiotic choice. Exactly. It's like asking in the Daily Drawing thread, "How do I draw animes?" and then bitching and whining when people tell you to learn life drawing saying, "I don't wanna because it's boring and I just wanna draw animes. Waaaah." You get exactly the same response because that's every hard working artist's response to a lazy rear end who thinks making art is easy.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 06:06
|
|
|
Ah that makes it sound far more clear. At first the last page gave the impression that if you say something mistaken, you'd get metaphorically lacerated and given a custom image (outside of fun events like the Thunderdome)
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 06:06
|
|
|
SkySteak posted:Ah that makes it sound far more clear. At first the last page gave the impression that if you say something mistaken, you'd get metaphorically lacerated and given a custom image (outside of fun events like the Thunderdome) Yeah, pretty much. If you say something blazingly retarded, people are going to mock you and spend money to do it as well.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 06:09
|
|
|
It's not like that. This particular issue ("I want to write but I hate reading") comes up waaaaay too often and we're all a little sick of answering it. It comes up so often, I'm thinking of writing a post about it and asking pipes! to sticky it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 06:11
|
|
|
Erik Shawn-Bohner posted:Yeah, pretty much. If you say something blazingly retarded, people are going to mock you and spend money to do it as well. Oh then that's slightly disappointing. I was under the impression one of the purposes of an Advice thread was to prevent you applying something done incorrectly or stupidly, to something actually mattered.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 06:11
|
|
|
I'm going to back up skysteak here. This sort of thread should also serve as a shallow end for newbies. It's just that specific question that sets us off.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 06:13
|
|
|
I had no idea that, that many people asked that specific question. I've only seen it come up this time yet I'm sure it came up in earlier thread iterations.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 06:20
|
|
|
Erik's missing a modifier here that might clear up your fears (sorry for mangling the grammar in the process).Erik Shawn-Bohner posted:Yeah, pretty much. Only If you say something blazingly retarded, people are going to mock you and spend money to do it as well. So no, we are not going to jump down your throat for asking newbie questions. I used the anime in the DD threads as a specific example because they are sick and tired of the same BS when it comes to drawing. Idea Guys who don't want to put in any work (and research), and fan artists who don't want to learn (but want a magic formula to get good anyway) are a huge pet peeve on every serious crit forum you can find. Edit: As are people who ask for advice and refuse to take it because it's haaaaard. (See below) Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Sep 9, 2012 |
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 06:26
|
|
|
Nirvikalpa posted:I think joyless might have been the wrong word. I like reading, but I don't really like what I'm reading. I think with non-fiction it's better because at least I'm learning. But with novels, I enjoy the process of reading, but I end up revolted by the subject matter most of the time or I can't understand it. Here's what you need to do: Read one novel every week, start to finish, for the next year. You must finish every one, even if you don't like it (life is hard, sorry). Set aside time each day for this task. It's not pleasure, it's work. I hope that over time you will discover the joy in reading and this will become pleasure not work, but regardless, you must persevere. Each night, after you're done reading, take 15 minutes to write about what you read. What you liked (if anything), what you didn't like, most importantly why you liked/didn't like whatever. Don't whine that you don't have time for this. I work a full time job, have a social life, and read multiple novels each week (on average, I'm not perfect, geez). You have to make it a priority. Read widely. Try to read every type of novel until you find one that you enjoy. Science fiction, fantasy, mystery, horror, suspense, thriller, legal drama, literary fiction, young adult, classics, modern classics, Vonnegut, Cormac McCarthy, Dickens, Jane Austen, read them all (or others). You said Twilight and the Hunger Games weren't the best books. Have you read either one? Read at least one of them. I recommend The Hunger Games, because I liked that one (and I also haven't read Twilight). If you have some idea of what you think you might like (for example, the kind of book you want to write), read about books in that genre until you find one that looks good. Check out Good Reads and Amazon reviews and try to actively pick things that seem interesting. Once you find a book you enjoy (by about 15 weeks in, I'd guess), then use that as a jumping off point to find more books. A literary agent once said "don't try to write a middle grade novel unless you've read 150 middle grade novels that were released in the past three years." That's really good advice. You can supplement, but not replace, this program by reading books about writing. Start with Reading Like a Writer by Francine Prose (surely a fake name, right?) and On Writing by Stephen King. These are broad overviews. Move on, if you want to, to books on specific subjects like plot, dialogue, etc. I can't tell you if any of these is better than any other, because writing isn't like doing a god damned math problem where there's a right way and a wrong way. There's only the way that works for you. Write. On top of your fifteen minutes a day writing about reading, try to find at least an hour a day to write your own fiction. It's going to suck. Not because you're a lovely writer, but because you are an inexperienced writer. It's cool, you just have to write a bunch of crap for a while, so start now and get it out of the way. I'm still in this phase myself and it's loving killing me, but you have to do it. Sorry, but nobody just starts making GBS threads out beautiful prose and convincing, compelling, powerful stories the first time their fingers hit the keyboard. You have to write about 10,000 pages of poo poo first. Copying and Pasting "poo poo" over and over again so it fills up 10,000 pages doesn't count, either. Edit yourself. Set aside some time to go back over what you wrote many, many times. The details of this are personal and depend on your writing style, but you should be editing everything at least three times. Think hard about every scene, paragraph, sentence, word. Is it necessary? Does it make a difference to the story? Know what every loving word you write accomplishes. Argue for it. Every word you write is on trial to determine its worthiness to exist in your story. Have no mercy. Words don't have feelings, they are like shrimp, it's cool. Writing is a skill, and it's one you learn by reading and writing. Do this. Here are some of my favorite novels. You might notice this list is heavily biased towards speculative fiction. That's because that's what I personally like. I'm not saying you should read all (or any) of these, it's just a jumping off point, use it how you want. Good Omens: The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch: hilarious tale of good and evil One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest: modern classic about inmates in a mental institution, narrator is insane, villain is an emasculating bitch of a nurse. The Road: Literary post-apocalyptic fiction about a man and his son. Contains lots of big words. Your world is full of ashes and everything is dead. Wuthering Heights: classic tale of an ill-fated romance and its curse on everyone near by. May contain ghosts, real and metaphorical. Ender's Game: Sci-Fi about a genius kid sent to battle school, my first literary crush <3. Game of Thrones: Epic fantasy dealing more with political intrigue than magic. Cloud Atlas: Modern literary fiction that spans multiple characters and centuries, words cannot describe. Over Sea, Under Stone: Kids find some serious King Arthur poo poo, magic. The Picture of Dorian Grey: Stolen tagline from Amazon, "Celebrated novel traces the moral degeneration of a handsome young Londoner from an innocent fop into a cruel and reckless pursuer of pleasure." The Great Book of Amber (Amber Chronicles #1-10): Epic fantasy that's not set in a Tolkien-derived world. Kafka on the Shore: Magical realism (I guess?), blew my mind, compelled me to start listening to classical music again, your milage may vary. Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep: basis for the movie Blade Runner, but somehow completely different from the movie. Oryx and Crake: Post-apocalyptic fiction. The Big Sleep: Hard-boiled detective novel, real literature. Unff. Perdito Street Station: Sci-fi that invents the most insane world that you could never have imagined yourself and has no spaceships. The Time Traveller's Wife: Romance, with art and time travel for good measure. The Chronicles of Prydain: Straight-forward kid's fantasy, just done really well. The Lord of the Rings: The father of 90% of modern epic fantasy for a reason. One Hundred Years of Solitude: Magical realism/literary fiction masterpiece. ---------------------------------------------- Actually, I'd really love to hear any of you other writer's reading recommendations, because I just got a library card. Oh Yeah. Edit: haha, some poo poo happened while I was typing up this giant serious post. Bonus: The worst book I've ever read is Wizard War: http://www.amazon.com/Wizard-War-Chronicles-Age-Darkness/dp/0445208600/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347169213&sr=1-1&keywords=wizard+war Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Sep 9, 2012 |
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 06:28
|
|
|
Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Here's what you need to do: Read one novel every week, start to finish, for the next year. You must finish every one, even if you don't like it (life is hard, sorry). Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm starting school, and it's kicking my rear end already. Maybe in four years? I'm not that desperate to write well.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 07:11
|
|
|
Nirvikalpa posted:Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm starting school, and it's kicking my rear end already. Maybe in four years? I'm not that desperate to write well. Oh well, if you don't care about doing it well, then just have at it, type up a bunch of poo poo, shove it down the throats of all your friends and family, and bask in their awkward, insincere praise.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 07:14
|
|
|
Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Oh well, if you don't care about doing it well, then just have at it, type up a bunch of poo poo, shove it down the throats of all your friends and family, and bask in their awkward, insincere praise. I guess I would rather have that than fail out of school?
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 07:16
|
|
|
Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Oh well, if you don't care about doing it well, then just have at it, type up a bunch of poo poo, shove it down the throats of all your friends and family, and bask in their awkward, insincere praise. And also 
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 07:19
|
|
|
Nirvikalpa posted:I guess I would rather have that than fail out of school? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FYTc55nGEI
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 07:21
|
|
|
Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Bonus: The worst book I've ever read is Wizard War: http://www.amazon.com/Wizard-War-Chronicles-Age-Darkness/dp/0445208600/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347169213&sr=1-1&keywords=wizard+war Oh man really? Can you come over to the Hugh Cook thread and tell us why you hated it so much?
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 08:01
|
|
|
If I've learned anything in life, it's that college is the definitely the hardest part. Once you graduate, it's pretty much free sailing and doing whatever the gently caress you want all the time. Money rolls in so fast you can pay some shlub to do the laundry and the dishes and just sit in your authentic Herman Miller chair at your custom designed writing desk and write. When you get tired of writing, you go over to your reading nook, and sit down on Turkish silk pillows and all the best novels that are perfectly to your taste appear and read themselves directly into your brain. I easily get through at least 20 novels per day like this, but I'm a really fast assimilator. Your body's need for food and sleep basically disappear, so you have an extra six to eight hours a day (depending on how many stimulants you used to get through the hellish crucible of undergrad) to devote to long inspiring walks or critique groups. Of course, everything you write is so mind-blowingly good that no one has anything bad to say. You go to bars and toss out some choice quotes from your latest novels and girls line up to give you blow jobs while their boyfriends buy you drinks. Your parents are so impressed and proud that they move in with you and take care of all of the trivial details of life like going to dentist appointments for you and raising your kids, but they never boss you around or complain when you bring all the girls home from the bar because you're just so amazing they totally understand. You're dad wants to give you a high-five but he doesn't because it might affect your groove. You drink all the time, not because you're crushed by the weight of competing responsibilities and desires, but because you enjoy it. It also makes you an even better writer. You have a bottle of merlot and just crank out three chapters of pure genius every night. You have the most fabulous dinner parties and Cormac McCarthy can't even get over how amazing your mom's latkes are. Everyone is scrambling for an invite, but you regulate stringently. Bestselling authors only, sorry. You can't do any of this awesome poo poo while you're in school, obviously, because you're taking fifteen hours of class a week and maybe studying between all the networking functions you have to go to. You're so busy writing ten page essays on why the Victorians loved trains that you can't possibly find time to read twenty pages from an unassigned book a day. But once you make it through those grueling four years of torture, you're free and clear. The whole world spreads it's lush, freshly waxed legs in front of you. You've arrived into the magical world of adulthood, where freetime is all the time and you never have to wake up at 5am to try to cram a couple hours of writing out before you go to your horrendous, boring job. In fact, life is so easy that you decide to take a day job as a waiter, just to learn something about the common man's experience. One day your boss tells you to be more cheerful, because your sullen, self-satisfied approach to work is driving away customers. "DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHO I AM?" you shout, overturning the nearest table. You say your name and everyone in the restaurant stands up and applauds, even the guy with applesauce running down his shirt from your table-flipping gymnastics. The jock at table 3 gives your boss a killer wedgie and everyone spits on him. Then they all pull out their iPhones and preorder your next three books, and when one chick doesn't have an iPhone, the girl next to her gets her address and preorders one for her because everyone is that loving hyped about how great your books are. Also, no one tells you this, but when you graduate, all you have to do is ask the Dean and he will give you a magic pen that writes best selling YA series that get made into million dollar movie series. I obviously knew about this secret (I'm J. K. Rowling, btw) and someone must have told Stephanie Meyers (that coattail riding bitch), too. Orson Scott Card got one but his broke when he tried to actually write down his own ideas. Don't make that mistake. Just when you're really enjoying your success, some well-meaning soul asks "how can I be a good writer" and you spend thirty minutes typing up a real sincere-sounding post about working hard. Then, you climb into a bath filled with Dom Perignon and virgins' breast milk blest by the Pope and you laugh and laugh at all those idiots out there trying to become successful writers by "working hard." All those poor, stupid idiots.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 08:24
|
|
|
I did a 3-year fulltime degree and believe me, I wish I had that much time to gently caress about these days. If you think there's no time to write while you're at uni, just wait until the real world.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 10:47
|
|
|
Am I the only one curious about what she might produce? OK, I know with 99.999% certainty that if it were ever written (a <1% chance in itself, given that words in a row nauseate her) it would be some ghastly Methods of Rationality/Fountainhead/twee philosophy thing with talking animals mashup, but 99.999% of all outsider art is a waste of atoms. There's still the occasional one that's fascinatingly unlike anything else. Though I guess realistically anyone obsessively focussed enough to write an entire novel while loathing the artform wouldn't be posting for reassurance on an internet forum. Never mind, I'll just go try reading Oahspe again....
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 12:12
|
|
|
Nirvikalpa posted:I guess I would rather have that than fail out of school? Good god, this is the worst thing. You will have more free time at school to develop your writing than at any other point in your life until you retire. I had a 40-hours-a-week schedule at university and I still have less free time now that I have a proper job, due to all those drat grown-up responsibilities. I know you only want to write something 'adequate', but even getting to that point takes a lot of effort, and you have to be prepared to put the time in. With regards to what you should read - what do you want to write? As others have said, any writer should read as widely as possible, but a good starting place is within the genre that your ideas seem to fit into. I'm also interested in hearing about the books that you've read but didn't like. If you fancy a quick exercise, how about listing a few examples and why you didn't like them? I don't want to analyse your writing style or mock your taste or anything like that, but that sort of information might be helpful to steer you towards something you might enjoy.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 12:24
|
|
|
I'm curious about the part about being revolted by fiction. What exactly do you mean? What is it that repels you? Does it apply to stories in all mediums, or just written? Writing nonfiction might be a possibility, but that also requires a sense for the flow of a narrative.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 13:08
|
|
|
Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Here's what you need to do: Read one novel every week, start to finish, for the next year. You must finish every one, even if you don't like it (life is hard, sorry). I know I certainly would like to see the books others recommend to read. I would find that helpful, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 13:48
|
|
|
Stabbey_the_Clown posted:I know I certainly would like to see the books others recommend to read. I would find that helpful, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Originally, I wrote a snarky reply, but to be helpful, such a list might be useful in the OP. Just as with Dr. Kloctopussy's list, it should attempt to cover a wide range of genres AND styles.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2012 14:52
|
|
|
Martello posted:...since I'm an active-duty soldier and a military history buff, you better have your military poo poo squared away for future Thunderdome offerings. I am just curious but when you say 'military history buff' do you just have a general interest, regardless of type or period, or is there something specific you enjoy focusing on?
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2012 02:33
|
|
|
Stabbey_the_Clown posted:I know I certainly would like to see the books others recommend to read. I would find that helpful, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. The Master and Margarita, by Bulgakov. Magic Realism before it was cool, a hilarious score settling romp through 30s Moscow by the motherfucking Devil and his rambunctious buddies, coupled with the most divinely beautiful writing about Pontius Pilate. Invisible Cities by Italo Calvino. A few dozen portraits of imaginary cities, with a framing narrative of Marco Polo and Kublai Khan talking about Marco's travels. Each city is a perfect jewel-like puzzle that keeps nourishing your mind even when you've solved it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2012 09:07
|
|
|
Stabbey_the_Clown posted:I know I certainly would like to see the books others recommend to read. I would find that helpful, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. This is a good idea. The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner: Written by Himself: With a detail of curious traditionary facts and other evidence by the editor by James Hogg. It is by turns hilarious and discomfiting. It was also one of the inspirations for The Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde and importantly from a writing perspective, is one of the first known (if not the first) instances of the 'unreliable narrator' which makes it a direct ancestor of Pale Fire and House of Leaves among others. That Hideous Strength by C.S. Lewis is a personal favourite of mine, as it has an excellent and accurate descriptions of modern evil, and also is a textbook example of the right way to do deus ex machina. Finally Moby Dick. Because if you like the English language, you should read it: quote:I heard old Ahab mutter, "Here someone thrusts these cards into these old hands of mine; swears that I must play them, and no others." And drat me Ahab, but thou actest right; live in the game, and die it! quote:The Master and Margarita, by Bulgakov Thanks for this, I hadn't heard of it before and just looked it up. Looks really good.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2012 13:38
|
|
|
Seldom Posts posted:This is a good idea. I'm just chiming in to say that this book absolutely blew my mind. I used to just pick at random off a fellow postgrad's shelves and he off mine(I'm US, he's UK so we had completely different 'lists'). I got Confessions he got Vonnegut's Bluebeard. I think I might have won that trade.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2012 14:47
|
|
|
If you want a hardboiled noir crime fiction featuring one of the all time great protagonists, you should read the Parker novels by Richard Stark aka Donald Westlake. I'd recommend starting with Flashfire because it's one of the fastest paced openings you will ever find in a piece of crime fiction and is just a stellar book in general. Four entire heists in the first fifty pages! An opening featuring a dude chucking a molotov cocktail at a gas station! Why aren't you reading this right now. The author was a dude who loved writing so much that he took up multiple pen names to write fiction because he was already writing so much other stuff at the same time under his original name. Parker is a wonderfully ruthless and amoral dude and the entire fun of reading the books is watching Stark put him in the worst possible situations and then watching in awe as he gets himself out of them. You should read this book, and then immediately read everything else the man ever wrote, because he's awesome. Plus his Stark pseudonym is all about economy of prose, so if you ever find yourself running long and thinking "But how can I learn to efficiently convey side character's viewpoints and stories without taking up too much space from the rest of the story?" then you should read him extra hard. I may or may not be in love with these books. Benagain fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Sep 10, 2012 |
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2012 14:58
|
|
|
Book recommendations! Great idea.Dr. Kloctopussy posted:One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest: modern classic about inmates in a mental institution, narrator is insane, villain is an emasculating bitch of a nurse. I have One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest on my Sony Reader and I shamefully haven't read it yet. The Road is one of my favorites, and my introduction to Cormac McCarthy. Soul-crushing, but less so than Blood Meridian and absolutely fantastic quote:Ender's Game: Sci-Fi about a genius kid sent to battle school, my first literary crush <3. Another great choice. Everyone, please ignore all the SJW goons plaguing these forums who go on about Orson Scott Card being a misogynist or whatever the evil flavor of the week is. He might be that and other things, I don't know, but he writes really awesome stories so who the gently caress cares? I hate everything that comes from the mouths of most actors, and it doesn't stop me from watching their films if they're good. quote:Game of Thrones: Epic fantasy dealing more with political intrigue than magic. gently caress yes. I don't think I even need to say anything else about this, except to be aware that the entire series is called A Song of Ice and Fire, and Game of Thrones is only the first book. Also, contrary to the goon hivemind, A Dance with Dragons is just as good as the first four books. People who don't like these books are pussies who can't stick it for the long haul of a true fantasy epic. quote:The Picture of Dorian Grey: Stolen tagline from Amazon, "Celebrated novel traces the moral degeneration of a handsome young Londoner from an innocent fop into a cruel and reckless pursuer of pleasure." I need to read this. Not having read it makes me a shameful English major. quote:Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep: basis for the movie Blade Runner, but somehow completely different from the movie. Completely different and completely awesome. I prefer the movie overall, though. I don't know if anyone can tell but I have a huge hardon for cyberpunk.   quote:Oryx and Crake: Post-apocalyptic fiction. Will have to check this out. I also love post-apocalyptic poo poo. We need smilies for that and cyberpunk by the way. quote:The Big Sleep: Hard-boiled detective novel, real literature. Unff. Seriously, read anything by Raymond Chandler. The Little Sister and The High Window are also great choices. He's one of my biggest literary influences along with William Gibson. quote:Perdito Street Station: Sci-fi that invents the most insane world that you could never have imagined yourself and has no spaceships. I've heard this is great, and I'll have to load it into my new Kindle for this gay training rotation starting this weekend. By the way, it's Perdido. quote:The Lord of the Rings: The father of 90% of modern epic fantasy for a reason. Just gonna second both of these recs. sebmojo posted:Invisible Cities by Italo Calvino. I haven't read Calvino since my Alternative Fiction class at Broome Community College back in 2003. loving great poo poo. Do yourself a favor and read it. Seldom Posts posted:Finally Moby Dick. Because if you like the English language, you should read it: I hated Moby Dick in college. Maybe I better try reading it again, but I think it might just be awful. So many pages about whales. Benagain posted:stuff about Parker novels I just bought The Hunter, which is the first book in the series. Only 4 bones for my Kindle!  Also, Darwyn Cooke has been adapting the Parker novels to comic book form and they're apparently really awesome. I guess I could pick up the Parker: The Hunter hardcover this week so I have something with words AND pictures to read out in the Mojave.As for my own additional recommendations, I'll start with some fun-to-read, non-literary genre fiction. The Dresden Files by Jim Butcher These books aren't great, but they're fun quick reads and a good example of how you can throw a bunch of tired urban fantasy tropes into a blender and come out with a smoothie that actually tastes pretty good, although it's not very nutritious. Do read them in order, because the series builds quite a bit. I'm on the sixth book and took a break for a while, but I'll get back to the series eventually. Sandman Slim series by Richard Kadrey I just started reading the first and eponymous novel in the series, and I like it a lot. It's urban fantasy of the same flavor as the Dresden books, but better written and with a better protagonist. At least, I like Stark better, but that's probably because I identify better with violent borderline sociopath assholes than self-hating depressive personalities. Also, angels and demons are cooler than fairies and all that other poo poo. Still has vampires and werewolves though, which is fine by me. Another awesome thing about the Sandman Slim books is that Kadrey is a tattooed badass irl, whereas Jim Butcher looks like a stereotypical D&D DM. I mean, seriously, whose writing would you rather read?   Wastelands: Stories of the Apocalypse This is a post-apocalyptic fiction anthology that I just got based on a Book Barn recommendation. I've read "Salvage" by Orson Scott Card and "The People of Sand and Slag" by Paolo Bacigalupi. Both are very good. "Salvage" is about Mormons in post-nuclear America, and has some similarities to Walter Miller's Leibowitz novels. Since people have been writing a lot of post-apocalyptic and dystopian stuff, this is a good anthology to look at for inspiration. A Canticle for Leibowitz and Saint Leibowitz & the Wild Horse Woman by Walter M. Miller Moving into genre fiction that is also very much literary fiction, these two books are pretty much the gold-standard for post-apocalyptic novels. Canticle is much more well-known and acclaimed, but I personally like Wild Horse Woman better. The first novel is in three parts, both separated by hundreds of years, whereas the second is one continuous narrative with a single protagonist. Miller's post-nuclear society and geography is incredibly detailed and well-realized, and he also gets into some very cool linguistics stuff. The basic synopsis is, "atomic war devastates the world, the American Catholic Church becomes the dominant force on the continent." If you like post-apoc poo poo, read these loving books. This post is long enough so I'll come up with other recs later and put them here. SkySteak posted:I am just curious but when you say 'military history buff' do you just have a general interest, regardless of type or period, or is there something specific you enjoy focusing on? I'm generally interested in military history for personal as well as professional reasons. I focus on modern military history/science back to WWII, as well as Europe in most of the Middle Ages, and Tokugawa Japan. I have a decent overall understanding of global mil-history, so it's easy for me to research a specific thing and understand the context.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2012 17:04
|
|
|
Martello posted:
The first time I read it, I just skipped/skimmed the chapters about the whales. I still liked it a lot. One of the only books I felt compelled to copy whole paragraphs from, just to re-write the language. My advice would be to read it again and just skip the stuff that is not related directly to the characters. Then read that poo poo the next time you read it. Then get an annotated version, and it gets even better. Here's another quote I think you'll like. This is just after Ishmael has drafted his will: "Now then, thought I, unconsciously rolling up the sleeves of my frock, here goes for a cool, collected dive at death and destruction, and the devil fetch the hindmost." If that's not  I don't know what is.Anyway, enough about Moby Dick. Benagain's recommendation is right on. Great books, and practically the definition of clean writing. I don't think Westlake ever tells us what a character is feeling, he just conveys it through actions. @Molly Bloom: Great to see another Justified Sinner fan. You totally won.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2012 17:40
|
|
|
Sometimes Melville is just talking about whales when he talks about whales, but quite often he is just using whales and whaling as a metaphorical vehicle. One of my favorite passages is after they catch and slaughter their first whale, they hoist its severed head up on the mast to extract more oil out of it later. But, to right the ship they go out looking for an easy-to-find Right Whale so they can hoist its head on the opposite side of the mast, thus righting the ship. However, Melville likens this to hoisting the head of Immanuel Kant on one side and some other philosopher on the other. Surely, the mast will be upright, but the ship will be under some strain and will not sail well. This is a metaphor for thought, as I see it. You can't hoist up the ideals of two different windbags and expect your ship to sail straight. On book recommendations: I was thinking to make things more constructive we can maybe make a thread to discuss/gather/cull definitive recommendations, then we could put the finalized list in this OP or something. I think we should focus on genre and style and give a one or two sentence blurb about the book. The recommendations should be given with a mind for what is the definitive book for neophytes given a certain genre and style. What do you guys think? I can make a thread, then gather the info and keep running lists sorted by genre and style so that everyone could discuss redundancies and deficiencies. I would put some sort of time limit on suggestions, like a month or something.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2012 18:04
|
|
|
Yeah, I should say I am talking about the chapters that are solely about whale taxonomy; not that you should start glazing whenever somebody mentions a whale. Overwined, I support that idea.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2012 18:09
|
|
|
It's up. Head on over and make your suggestions. Please note that I'm not adding anything that has been posted in this thread. If you would like to submit those titles, please do so in the thread and in the format requested. Thanks.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2012 18:53
|
|
|
Martello posted:I've heard this is great, and I'll have to load it into my new Kindle for this gay training rotation starting this weekend. By the way, it's Perdido. I'd be interested to know what you think of this. By about halfway I was sick of his bullshit. I finished it in a kind of vituperative fury, mutilated it with a huge pair of pinking shears and fastballed it into the bin. So: not a fan. But I can see why people like him, he's a good writer. I just really hated what he wrote about and how he wrote it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2012 04:22
|
|
|
Martello posted:I'm generally interested in military history for personal as well as professional reasons. I focus on modern military history/science back to WWII, as well as Europe in most of the Middle Ages, and Tokugawa Japan. I have a decent overall understanding of global mil-history, so it's easy for me to research a specific thing and understand the context. That is interesting to hear and though unrelated and not aimed at you: It's a real shame that a lot of budding writers who write military fiction tend to just swallow up the reader in a sea of abbreviations, dry military specifications and just general facts. Now if you're reading that genre you may be accustomed to that but it can still make souless, boring story. Strong concepts have been soured by this (The Salvation War). I feel like a lot of people fail to remember there are actual people behind those machines and they had experiences with said equipment that can make for interesting storytelling and scenes. Desperately trying to get a track repaired to hunting a merchantmen in a U-boat are all examples of what can create conflicts, even with characters. Hell even the origins of whatever super amazing warmachine 5000 can be interesting rather than the a spec dump. Take the forming of the Bradley or the poo poo went on in creating battleships to various interests.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2012 04:30
|
|
|
Perdido Street Station stuff.sebmojo posted:I'd be interested to know what you think of this. By about halfway I was sick of his bullshit. I finished it in a kind of vituperative fury, mutilated it with a huge pair of pinking shears and fastballed it into the bin. I remember at some point while reading it I got super-disgusted by the fact that he wrote bug-headed ladies who reproduce through their bug heads, yet still have vaginas. Why would they have those? Just so his main character could have sex with one of them?! UGH. I definitely skimmed some of this book, but I still recommend it occasionally. Mostly because it's such an amazingly unique world. Whether or not it was wise to recommend it to someone who "wants to learn to write" but "hates reading" because he finds the "subject matter of novels repulsive" is up for debate.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2012 05:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 19:46 |
|
|
Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Perdido Street Station stuff. If I was going to use a single word to describe it, it'd be 'leering'. I'd not think less of someone who loved it, because he's undeniably talented. I'd put it in a similar box to the Malazan books - I liked them, but I'd only recommend them with caveats. edit: Oh and Martello - what did you think of the redditor who got all Clancey over sending a Marine battalion back to Augustan Rome? Read pretty well to me, and my skimpy classical education didn't register any major clangers, but it seems your literary MOS. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Sep 11, 2012 |
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2012 05:41
|
|