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SynthOrange posted:Hey, looks like the protests have hit here in Australia too. Tiny mob, but still it's going to be horrible politically for the next several weeks. Yeah, AusPol thread has a bit more about this in the last page or so. It's bizarre. I can't see any reason for this kind of reaction apart from "let's break some poo poo", the (somewhat shady) reasoning that the protestors don't understand that this isn't a state-endorsed video doesn't hold water here. But what I don't really get is why it's happening now.
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Sep 15, 2012 13:05
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The Australian protests just look like low-level copycat protests to me, by a small group of people who want to lash out against whatever. I'm honestly surprised that nothing similar has happened in Britain given that we've got our own fair share of poo poo-stirrers. Anyone else getting annoyed by headlines stating that the protests are due to the youtube film? At this point I find it rather disingenuous to suggest that the video is even a single one of the fundamental drivers of the protests, as opposed to just being an excuse.
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Sep 15, 2012 13:23
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Chidona posted:The Australian protests just look like low-level copycat protests to me, by a small group of people who want to lash out against whatever. I'm honestly surprised that nothing similar has happened in Britain given that we've got our own fair share of poo poo-stirrers. I'm fairly sure there was a protest in London yesterday or the day before outside of Grosvenor Square - but then again... there always is.
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Sep 15, 2012 13:32
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Maybe I'm just some sheltered white dude who doesn't understand the concept of a protest, but I have a fairly fundamental question here? What exactly is the point of these protests? I mean, today in Sydney protesters, who its seems were extremely worked up and many of whom were spoiling for a fight, clashed with police. In Sydney. What the gently caress does Sydney have to do with any of this? I understand most protests, I think. To some degree, at least. The Old Mill announces lay-offs, the Old Mill gets picketed by the unions. Parliament deliberates a law you don't like, you protest in front of the parliament. Same goes if you generally want to draw attention to an issue with the eventual (if often unrealistic goal) of there being government action in relation to it. Your nation declares a war you oppose, you take to the main streets of various cities and voice your discontent with your government at large. All these instances have bodies that could be called the target of the protest. Who is the target of these protests in relation to the stupid movie? What is supposed to be achieved here? Is there some misconception that it was America the country or Western nations at large that are making fun of Islam and Mohammed? I just don't quite understand at whom all this anger is directed, because it's certainly not reaching anybody who's actually done the thing that's incited the anger. It just seems so goddamn illogical. I mean, I don't want to sound all beep-boop Spock but I just don't understand why you'd even be protesting in a situation like this if you're on the receiving end of the stupidity in question. I understand the anger, even if I can't sympathise with it. It's rational anger. But it's manifestation in the form of these protests isn't. Why the gently caress are people wrecking poo poo and disrupting lives that don't belong to the people responsible for the piece of film that's the source of the religious outrage? I guess a lot of people are asking similar questions right now. But I just genuine would like to get my head around what's going on here. What's the desired outcome? Qui bono, you know? Smudgie Buggler fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Sep 15, 2012 |
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Sep 15, 2012 13:53
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Any Farsi speakers able to translate the nationality and position section of this card?
Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Sep 15, 2012 |
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Sep 15, 2012 14:08
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Patter Song posted:Sorry to dredge this up from four pages back, but turning Operation Ajax into a proximate cause of the Iranian Revolution is deeply sloppy, ahistorical thought that takes the Iranian Revolution out of its proper context in Iranian history and turns it into some sort of Cold War morality tale. This was a drat good post and I wish there were more like it in this thread. Thank you so much, Patter Song.
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Sep 15, 2012 14:14
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Brown Moses posted:Any Farsi speakers able to translate the nationality and position section of this card? Name: Ali Ibrahim Nationality: Syrian Position: just says "player". e: The fields are filled out in Arabic so I just assume that was done by Syrian officials. What's the importance of this by the way? camel melt fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Sep 15, 2012 |
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Sep 15, 2012 14:20
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Smudgie Buggler posted:Who is the target of these protests in relation to the stupid movie? What is supposed to be achieved here? Is there some misconception that it was America the country or Western nations at large that are making fun of Islam and Mohammed? I just don't quite understand at whom all this anger is directed, because it's certainly not reaching anybody who's actually done the thing that's incited the anger. The movie was created and calculated to do it - someone's spent the money to set it all up. Find out who did that, and you have the reason. Follow the money. I don't understand why that hasn't happened yet- the world knows who made it, but not who funded it. As for why the protests in Sydney, England (I saw it on the BBC world news I think, but it wasn't violent)? The one in Sydney was set up by someone. Someone organized it, and then didn't plan it- there was a reporter asking "why" and the guys at the front didn't know either, and didn't know where they were going. I suspect eventually the lack of "planning" meant they walked into a Police brick wall and decided to go through it rather than actually state what they wanted - because they don't know. Whoever organized it didn't tell them - that could be stupid, or it could be someone just pointing the crowd at the police and hoping they go off. If this was a Tom Clancy novel, the protests were started by someone with a deeper (and more evil) motive. They want the protesters to be dumb and angry and cause the security forces to be dumb and angry in fighting back. You get more heat into it, and then once the explosions start you can come in and take advantage of the situation. The high up people who want to do that don't care about the innocents hurt, or the fate of the low level people on their "side". The more blood, the better they see it. It nearly always ends up bad for everyone involved, but by then you're lucky if you're not already dead. They don't care about you. They don't care about me. They only care about power and the ability to use it on someone else.
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Sep 15, 2012 14:28
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steve1 posted:Name: Ali Ibrahim
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Sep 15, 2012 14:48
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Smudgie Buggler posted:Maybe I'm just some sheltered white dude who doesn't understand the concept of a protest, but I have a fairly fundamental question here? Interesting discussion. Ive lurked these forums for some time now. Not sure where to fit in my smartass comments. The point is that there are a lot of people in the Arab world with little to do beyond protest. Hordes are unemployed, especially in wartorn countries. The term 'Arab spring' is a misleading phrase dubbed by western imperialists to shrug off responsibility for supporting brutal dictatorships among arabs protesting to oust them. Its a phrase they use to try to dub it an arab 'enlightenment' when in fact the Arabs were not protesting for western freedom and democracy but protesting to overthrow imperialists and their puppet governments in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Yemen, etc. That means, this so called arab spring was really an effort to overthrow the USA, Britain, France, etc who proped up people like Mubarak and other repressive governments. These protests are a continuation of that. That is the point of the protests. Everything leading up to them is just a catalyst that these unemployed or underemployed Arabs are usuing to express their frustrations against the people they perceive as the real ones at fault for their prediciment.
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Sep 15, 2012 15:16
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Xandu posted:http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/09/14/the_silent_hand_of_saleh Patter Song posted:I'm sorry for the gigantic effortpost, Thanks y'all for the information. What the folks who seem to know a whole lot about this area are reinforcing for me over and over is that the protests in all these different countries are actually all happening in different countries. In each place a different set of actors is trying to use the film and outrage for their own political purposes. I know that probably seems super shallow to a lot of y'all, but it's really not reflected in most of the discussion I'm seeing in the news. Smudgie Buggler posted:
And you won't get a good answer if you're searching for a single unifying coordinated purpose for the protesters because that's not the way it's playing out 
EvanTH fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Sep 15, 2012 |
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Sep 15, 2012 15:17
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e: nevermind
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Sep 15, 2012 15:19
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br soren posted:imperialists and their puppet governments in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Yemen In what sense was Gaddafi a puppet government for any imperialist country? This looks kinda reasonable on its face, but only because it's pretty drat hard to find a government in the Middle East that hasn't been touched by Western interests. Reducing the Arab Spring to a revolt against some vague notion of "imperialism" is a huge oversimplification.
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Sep 15, 2012 15:22
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The Asian Oprah posted:I know that probably seems super shallow to a lot of y'all, but it's really not reflected in most of the discussion I'm seeing in the news. Yeah the average person seems to think it's all one country, all one people, etc. The same misunderstanding we are all more than familiar with. I get really frustrated when I happen to catch the news or hear other people talking about it and I just have to walk away.
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Sep 15, 2012 15:23
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Amarkov posted:In what sense was Gaddafi a puppet government for any imperialist country? Ghadaffi was given aid by the US after renouncing WMD's and supported by the French and British governments. A scandle that broke in Britain after they raided one of his compounds after he was overthrown. In Libya's case probably less so than say Egypt, Yemen, Saudi or the Tunis. http://iengage.org.uk/component/content/article/1-news/1258-human-rights-lawyer-queries-uk-support-for-gaddafi-regime http://dearkitty1.wordpress.com/2012/06/29/british-blair-governments-libyan-torture-scandal/ br soren fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Sep 15, 2012 |
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Sep 15, 2012 15:25
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steve1 posted:Name: Ali Ibrahim "Player"? 
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Sep 15, 2012 15:26
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br soren posted:Ghadaffi was given aid by the US after renouncing WMD's and supported by the French and British governments. A scandle that broke in Britain after they raided one of his compounds after he was overthrown. In Libya's case probably less so than say Egypt, Yemen, Saudi or the Tunis. I can't name a single country in the world that has never been given aid by the US. Can you? "They were all puppet governments and that's why people rebelled" is a much stronger claim than "A few Western interests got involved every once in a while".
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Sep 15, 2012 15:28
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Amarkov posted:I can't name a single country in the world that has never been given aid by the US. Can you? "They were all puppet governments and that's why people rebelled" is a much stronger claim than "A few Western interests got involved every once in a while". Im not talking aid. Im talking directly responsible for the ongoing existence of these governments. Many arabs will be the first to tell you this is their perception. Was the Shah of Iran or Saddam Hussein only financially supported by the US? No. The suppport is much more than monetary. And with Mubarak, the Saudi Kingdom and on and on. br soren fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Sep 15, 2012 |
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Sep 15, 2012 15:32
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br soren posted:Im not talking aid. Im talking directly responsible for the ongoing existence of these governments. Many arabs will be the first to tell you this is their perception. I think Mubarak and the Saudis are basically the only modern examples of this, and I'm not entirely sure that the Saudis need Western support. Again, just the fact the US was involved in a country's politics does not prove that any protests against that government are about imperialism. Amarkov fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Sep 15, 2012 |
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Sep 15, 2012 15:42
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Amarkov posted:I think Mubarak and the Saudis are basically the only modern examples of this, and I'm not entirely sure that the Saudis need Western support. Again, just the fact the US was involved in a country's politics does not prove that any protests against that government are about imperialism. A lot of this is a relic of the Cold War, where putative allies of both would play the US and the SU off each other for more aid by threatening to move to the other. There was also a whole lot of poo poo stirred up by proxy wars in various places. That this discussion of American foreign policy in the last century has gone this far without mention of Cold War geopolitics is somewhat odd. American foreign policy during the CW was all about containing the Soviets, and many nations in the world became pawns in the larger chess game between those two. Neither side really gave a poo poo about the long term effects on their client states - it was all about blocking the other. We're still seeing echos of the Cold War in current neoconservative ravings. They really can't get away from Russia being our big enemy, and thinking in terms of Cold War gamesmanship. So yeah, Americans walked all over and jerked around a lot of countries in the past. They didn't do it just to be assholes or because they enjoyed doing it, they were insensitive to local needs as they were focused on the Soviets above all. Doesn't excuse their behavior and states have a valid cause to be pissed about it, but it puts into a bit of perspective.
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Sep 15, 2012 15:56
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Crasscrab posted:"Player"? Don't hate and kill the player in Iran's name. Also protest pictures from Iran always remind me that Iranian girls are super hot and they're going to have to go full niqab if they want us westerners to stop lusting after 'em 
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Sep 15, 2012 15:57
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Deteriorata posted:A lot of this is a relic of the Cold War, where putative allies of both would play the US and the SU off each other for more aid by threatening to move to the other. I just want to emphasize this point a bit; I know 20 to 30 years feels like a long time, but the fact is there are still a lot of people in these countries, particularly among the older leadership, who lived through the height of American and Russian tensions and foreign proxy conflicts. Even though the world moves faster than ever now, 100 years is still a fairly short period in human history; People have held grudges for much longer throughout the past. I honestly don't think that we can hope a lasting peace to be brought about anytime in a least the next 50+ years, it will take at least that if not more for old wounds to heal and the cultures of both sides to be far enough removed from the conflicts to even attempt to disengage from them emotionally, if it happens at all. But there are ways to minimize the clashes and convince more and more people abroad that the West in not inherently an oppressive power. It would help if the west stopped oppressing people via proxy and foreign military actions though 
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Sep 15, 2012 16:05
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Myrdhale posted:I just want to emphasize this point a bit; I know 20 to 30 years feels like a long time, but the fact is there are still a lot of people in these countries, particularly among the older leadership, who lived through the height of American and Russian tensions and foreign proxy conflicts. Even though the world moves faster than ever now, 100 years is still a fairly short period in human history; People have held grudges for much longer throughout the past. Deal with the Israeli issue and you will bring about peace faster than you can blink an eye.
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Sep 15, 2012 16:16
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US police quiz anti-Islam video suspect http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2012/09/201291514945705109.html I guess it's morally reassuring to know that the guy who made the video is a DEGENERATE CRIMINAL SCAM ARTIST separate from the video and we don't have to violate any principles of free speech to put him in the jail where statistics tell us he's got a good chance of getting raped and beaten and maybe murdered Surely massive human rights violations in US prisons which, according to internet comment boards, 900% of Americans think are both just and intrinsically funny, will put to rest all this anti-US sentiment
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Sep 15, 2012 16:17
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Amun Khonsu posted:Deal with the Israeli issue and you will bring about peace faster than you can blink an eye. The Israeli issue was also a relic of the Cold War. The US supported Israel, the Soviets supported the Arabs. The Palestinians became a convenient excuse for both sides to keep the proxy war going. It created a lot of wounds that are slow to heal.
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Sep 15, 2012 16:21
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Narciss posted:On the other hand, it is pretty sick that you can send 1/3 of the world into a tizzy by putting up a 5 minute amateur vid on youtube It's pretty sick how many people actually think this. It's an insult to non batshit insane muslims as well as anyone with half a brain. So sick of seeing every news story furthering this idiocy. Sudden outpouring of violence after friday prayers is a bit obvious as well.
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Sep 15, 2012 16:31
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Deteriorata posted:The Israeli issue was also a relic of the Cold War. The US supported Israel, the Soviets supported the Arabs. The Palestinians became a convenient excuse for both sides to keep the proxy war going. It created a lot of wounds that are slow to heal. Yes, I completely agree on that!
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Sep 15, 2012 16:31
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Fog Tripper posted:It's pretty sick how many people actually think this. It's an insult to non batshit insane muslims as well as anyone with half a brain. So sick of seeing every news story furthering this idiocy. OK, so are you sick at the truly "batshit insane" muslims who give this as a reason for their action? They might be lying, but this is what they are saying. Including the latest ones in Australia.
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Sep 15, 2012 16:43
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Amun Khonsu posted:Deal with the Israeli issue and you will bring about peace faster than you can blink an eye. I think Peace and a lasting stable relationship with the region would still take sometime, but you're right, Israel is a big sticking point that pushes things in the opposite direction of where they should go. Which is sad, because for a time things were calming down and some semblance of agreement was slowly forming. But the continued aggressive settlement policies of Israel can only lead to more strife for the region. The Palestinians are not simply going to disappear, and continuing to treat them as enemies will simply push them to fight back harder. Sometimes I wonder how many world leaders might benefit from a quick read through of "The Prince"; it pretty much tells you to either treat people well, or destroy them outright and completely. Anything in between just serves to turn them against you. e: breaklaw posted:OK, so are you sick at the truly "batshit insane" muslims who give this as a reason for their action? They might be lying, but this is what they are saying. Including the latest ones in Australia. Yes, we are sick at the those who would use Muslim beliefs as a justification for violence, same as those who have used Christian beliefs for similar purposes. The point is it isn't '1/3 of the world' that got riled up by these movies, it's a small portion of a much much greater population, radicals who interpret the writings of Mohammed as calls for bloodshed. Christians have done the same and it is just as Abhorrent. The terrible truth of these conflicts is that the loudest, most vocal, most visible elements involved are NEVER the main bulk of the people. But because it is often the only side ever broadcasted, it's the only side many people experience, so it becomes easy to think of all Muslims as bloodthirsty, or of all Christians as Xenophobic bigots. This is not an apology or a justification for the actions that are being taken by these radicals, this is an acknowledgement that they do not represent the majority of the Muslim world. Our end goal in all of this must be to bridge the gap between our cultures and work towards a peaceful coexistence, something that can only if happen we continue on in spite of what the preachers of hate and bigotry proclaim. If we give them attention, we put them in control of the narrative. Better to simply move past their actions without retaliation, since any retaliation is likely to take a form that would harm many who were not radicalized before, and would become radicalized as a result. Ron Paul Atreides fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Sep 15, 2012 |
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Sep 15, 2012 16:45
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The Asian Oprah posted:US police quiz anti-Islam video suspect This is dead loving wrong. A politically motivated prosecution.
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Sep 15, 2012 16:45
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breaklaw posted:This is dead loving wrong. A politically motivated prosecution. quote:Nakoula Basseley Nakoula was convicted of bank fraud in 2010 but was later released on condition that he did not access the internet or use aliases. Last time I checked violating your probation was something that tends to get you in trouble. Darkman Fanpage fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Sep 15, 2012 |
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Sep 15, 2012 16:50
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breaklaw posted:This is dead loving wrong. A politically motivated prosecution. Eh, I see what you're getting at, but he's a convicted felon on a conditional release and the video and the circumstances around it make it look like he violated the conditions of that release, so he's being questioned.
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Sep 15, 2012 16:54
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I heard an interesting theory that Nakoula Basseley Nakoula produced the film because he feared that he was going to be deported for other reasons, and by making this film he could reasonably argue that sending him back to Egypt would result in his death. Does Nakoula have U.S. citizenship?
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Sep 15, 2012 16:59
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ClearAirTurbulence posted:Does Nakoula have U.S. citizenship? Yes, he's a naturalized citizen.
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Sep 15, 2012 17:09
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His name is mud. Anyway, who was bankrolling this "movie"? I doubt it's "100 Jews" like Nakoula/Bacile claimed, almost like he said it to whip up antisemitic sentiment and discourage people from having rational discourse about who wanted this movie made during a very fragile time in global power politics Also bringing it to the attention of conservative Egyptian media for publicity. Epic Troll, lol.
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Sep 15, 2012 17:16
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thrakkorzog posted:The Green Revolution was the best chance for the people in Iran to protest against the Iranian government, inspired by the Arab Spring, and the rest of the world told the Iranian protesters to go gently caress themselves, and left them hanging to whatever tortures the Iranian government has handy. During the Arab Spring, when maybe a C.I.A led coup of Iran would be useful, the C.I.A. just sat on their thumbs. This is a page back but just FYI the chronology on this is wrong. The Green Revolution happened a year before the Arab Spring in 6/09. Arab Spring started 12/10.
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Sep 15, 2012 17:20
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The Asian Oprah posted:Eh, I see what you're getting at, but he's a convicted felon on a conditional release and the video and the circumstances around it make it look like he violated the conditions of that release, so he's being questioned. When you make the national news for something that violates your probation, you're going to be arrested. It's no different from anyone on probation in Hollywood getting paparazzi'd drunk, which happens what, two or three times a year?
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Sep 15, 2012 17:24
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Adar posted:When you make the national news for something that violates your probation, you're going to be arrested. It's no different from anyone on probation in Hollywood getting paparazzi'd drunk, which happens what, two or three times a year? Yeah, exactly. It'd be negligent for the cops not to take him in, and it looks like they did it carefully and legally, so good on them.
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Sep 15, 2012 17:27
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Yiggy posted:This is a page back but just FYI the chronology on this is wrong. The Green Revolution happened a year before the Arab Spring in 6/09. Arab Spring started 12/10. Yes this is correct. Glad you saw it too. Modern IT plays a big role in geopolitics, you had better believe the Green Revolution was a prologue to the Spring.
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Sep 15, 2012 17:39
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Shame that the Green Revolution hadn't been a year later (or Arab Spring a year earlier) since it might've done better. 
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Sep 15, 2012 17:53
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