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EdEddnEddy posted:One thing I can see the surface having an edge over iOS and Android, is the fact that RT should have Windows Updates on all RT devices and all devices will be running the latest version. IOS is pretty good but each iOS version seems to leave some devices in the cold. We will see how RT devices look but seeing how Windows 8 can run on hardware older than what Vista was installed on, it wouldn't be crazy to see Win 9 version of RT to be on the current hen surface. In terms of past device support for their phone/tablet OS, Apple is actually the best in this regard. The iPad1, a tablet that has not been sold for a while, can't upgrade to the just released iOS6 - but it could be upgraded to iOS5. The iPhone3GS can be still be upgraded to iOS6 - that's a phone that was on the market before the first Windows Phone 7 device by almost 2 years. That means even if you were on a Canadian carrier you've probably upgraded by now.  Not all features of the new OS's work on the older hardware, there just isn't the horsepower of course, but compared to Android, and Windows Phone history, Apple's doing pretty drat well with legacy support. Compared to Windows as a full OS? Yeah, MS has no peer in that with respect to backwards compatibility, it's how they make their gravy. But WindowsRT is a curious beast, there's little indication it will have the lifespan of their X86 OS's at this point, especially with the limited hardware it's on. It's suicide for MS to drop support for older PC's with their X86 OS's as so much of their revenue comes from businesses which only upgrade on a 3-5 year cycle and keep software much longer, but RT right now is strictly a bundled OS sold on very limited hardware. It's too different to immediately apply the same lifecycle standards as past Windows OS's - plus mobile hardware is changing at a much more rapid pace than desktop.
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Oct 26, 2012 01:23
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EdEddnEddy posted:One thing I can see the surface having an edge over iOS and Android, is the fact that RT should have Windows Updates on all RT devices and all devices will be running the latest version. Windows RT is an edition of Windows 8, so you know it will receive the same security updates and bug fixes that other Windows 8, Windows 8 Pro and Windows 8 Enterprise machines will. Historically, Microsoft has never performed a full operating system upgrade through Windows Update. I'm not claiming that it isn't possible, but there is no existing precedent set for anyone to assume it as a possibility.
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Oct 26, 2012 01:31
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oval office AND PASTE posted:Windows RT is an edition of Windows 8, so you know it will receive the same security updates and bug fixes that other Windows 8, Windows 8 Pro and Windows 8 Enterprise machines will. What about Service Packs?
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Oct 26, 2012 01:32
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Protocol7 posted:See, what I'm not understanding is why people think that RT is DOA. It's a brand new platform. The hardware for it is overpriced, sure, but it's not like iOS and Android were perfect when they came out, and the price tag is one reason a lot of people go Android instead of iOS. And I'm really intrigued that people think that the platform isn't capable of improving? Like, so initial reviews aren't glowing, and it's because Windows 8 is new to the game and hasn't even had a fighting chance, nor a chance to improve. Android is on 4.1 now. It hasn't always been 4.1. With that said, they really hosed WP7 owners.
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Oct 26, 2012 01:38
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Cream_Filling posted:What about Service Packs? However, everything I've heard is that this is changing with Win8, and I don't mean just the metro apps which will of course be continually updated. Just last week there was a large patch that affected Win8's subsystems that improved performance and battery life, and can't recall where I saw it, but MS is saying another one is coming from RT. They've been able to do this because they've made substantial changes to how Win8 updates, Sinofsky said the update last week in years past with Win7 would have had to be released as an SP with months of testing. So yeah, Win8 may change far more than past Windows OS's through updates. MS wants to make updates far more frequent. So here's hoping. That being said, apparently no SP2 for Win7. So if you want to stay on Win7, have fun with installing 120 updates in a years time. Yay. 
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Oct 26, 2012 01:39
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In the tablet market though, since the hardware for Win RT is similar to Android, it will be a + to RT that all the RT devices will all have the latest and greatest version of RT. Even though the updates are more patches or service packs rather than actual builds. We will have to wait and see what the final word is on full OS upgrades down the line.
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Oct 26, 2012 01:40
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:With that said, they really hosed WP7 owners. It is no different than phones not getting android updates. Happy_Misanthrope posted:
They said the same poo poo with Windows Phone and we saw 1 update in 2 years. You could blame this on carriers but the fact that I still haven't seen the small update to fix the loving disappearing keyboard is annoying. My wife has a Lumia 900 and I know for a fact that updates can bypass carriers because she has received at least one directly. Doomsday Jesus fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Oct 26, 2012 |
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Oct 26, 2012 01:40
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Cream_Filling posted:What about Service Packs? The topic of discussion is moving from Windows 8 to Windows 9. Why are you bringing up Service Packs when it is clear what we are discussing?
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Oct 26, 2012 01:40
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Doomsday Jesus posted:It is no different than phones not getting android updates. And seeing as Android is by far the world leader in marketshare, Google can survive those hits. With MS struggling to reach 5% with the most recent smartphone platform, they have to do it better - they continually touted their tight integration with the hardware and their greater control they wouldn't have the issues with carriers ignoring Android updates. ...but the update process for WP7 was rocky out of the gate, and then they just cut the cord with WP8. WP7.8 will be the last update and it will basically only bring the new Start Screen which is nice, but there are certainly a hell of lot more small updates that I would have liked to see on my WP 7.5 Lumia. Getting more than a bit off topic though...
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Oct 26, 2012 01:43
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Doomsday Jesus posted:They said the same poo poo with Windows Phone and we saw 1 update in 2 years. You could blame this on carriers but the fact that I still haven't seen the small update to fix the loving disappearing keyboard is annoying. My wife has a Lumia 900 and I know for a fact that updates can bypass carriers because she has received at least one directly. I know - I'm not touting it as a positive. The lack of SP2 for Win7 sucks.
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Oct 26, 2012 01:45
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EdEddnEddy posted:...it wouldn't be crazy to see Win 9 version of RT to be on the current hen surface. This is true only if one completely ignores the lessons taught us by Windows Phone 7 series devices.
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Oct 26, 2012 03:55
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We will see if history repeats itself now won't we. Amazingly my old Windows Phone still works fantastic so it isn't like they are abandoning a broken device due to software like android tends to do.
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Oct 26, 2012 07:25
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According to the October 2012 ThinkPad Personal Systems Reference PDF, the ThinkPad Tablet 2 will include a USB 2.0 port. The full specs for it are listed on page 10-11: http://www.lenovo.com/psref/pdf/tabook.pdf
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Oct 26, 2012 12:29
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Did the surface come out at midnight?
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Oct 26, 2012 12:55
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Brett Favre posted:According to the October 2012 ThinkPad Personal Systems Reference PDF, the ThinkPad Tablet 2 will include a USB 2.0 port. The full specs for it are listed on page 10-11: http://www.lenovo.com/psref/pdf/tabook.pdf Wait, they're switching that to 16:9, too? Nooo
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Oct 26, 2012 13:02
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Just a reminder, the Microsoft mall kiosks (I mean, "Holiday Stores") should be opening today, so there's plenty of opportunity to get your hands on a Surface for yourself. They'll come up in the search results here. Hopefully we'll see some firsthand opinions in this thread soon instead of just bickering over our preferred interpretations for various reviews.
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Oct 26, 2012 13:21
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I'm going to pretend that this is the best thread for an app dump at the moment. Thought some people might be interested in some of non-obvious apps that I have been using: • Clipboard (http://apps.microsoft.com/webpdp/app/d12111fe-bfa8-4050-96c1-c6571e1f3230) - Share stuff to your clipboard. Used it to compile this list by sharing apps to it off my start screen. • Flux (http://apps.microsoft.com/webpdp/app/3718d867-4319-4aeb-9979-da9a5501b242) - Google Reader • Multimedia 8 (http://apps.microsoft.com/webpdp/app/0260a0fc-38bb-45a6-aa2a-f2453766c5fc) - I find this more pleasing than the built in video app for playback of local content. • Read it Better (http://apps.microsoft.com/webpdp/app/f812b2f9-7ce5-4c87-ba0d-47194be4091c) - Read poo poo later (Readability client). • Tweetro (http://apps.microsoft.com/webpdp/app/916a4ec1-b29d-46cd-8bae-e443245c48e4) - Twitter. I think I like the MetroTwit interface more, but it always seems to be losing its connection. And a couple games: • Joining Hands (http://apps.microsoft.com/webpdp/app/15a32605-a29f-48cb-9e58-761d7d997522) - Pretty relaxing puzzle game. • Totemo (http://apps.microsoft.com/webpdp/app/09b4be4b-87bc-4cdd-ab66-7366b5d56310) - Very relaxing puzzle game. Except for the jerk whose terrible dialog you have to click past all the time. • Wordament (http://apps.microsoft.com/webpdp/app/9c10bc10-75bf-41e3-a26a-01aba908af85) - Maybe obvious, but I like it so much that I'm going to mention it anyways.
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Oct 26, 2012 14:26
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Werthog posted:Just a reminder, the Microsoft mall kiosks (I mean, "Holiday Stores") should be opening today, so there's plenty of opportunity to get your hands on a Surface for yourself. They'll come up in the search results here. Hopefully we'll see some firsthand opinions in this thread soon instead of just bickering over our preferred interpretations for various reviews.  Maybe it's just me, but this message seems  as gently caress. Nearest one is a 5-hour drive away. Closest one to my parents: 13-hour drive away.
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Oct 26, 2012 14:36
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A lot of EMEA pre orders of the Surface RT appear to have been canceled automatically, thanks to transitioning to a new version during the pre order period. That's ducking hilarious. Also, during the Germany presentation, they didn't have any test hardware at hand, nor did they show the main presentation of the US event on their big screen. Some launch.
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Oct 26, 2012 15:07
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Anyone know how to screenshot on this thing? There's no PrntScrn button.
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Oct 26, 2012 15:12
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GonadTheBallbarian posted:Anyone know how to screenshot on this thing? There's no PrntScrn button. I think WinKey+S does screenshots, though I'm not sure if that is from another program or not. e: tk posted:I'm going to pretend that this is the best thread for an app dump at the moment. Thought some people might be interested in some of non-obvious apps that I have been using: I'd start up a Windows 8 App thread, but I am not seeing a way to actually search the store when you aren't on Windows 8. Anyone know of a third-party site that does this à la AppShopper? Kazy fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Oct 26, 2012 |
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Oct 26, 2012 15:13
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Man, why is Microsoft so incompetent at the business part of their business? Completely regardless of product quality, they've proven themselves unable to actually sell things. Like, their main moneymakers are things they don't even have to sell for people to buy them, and even when they make a good product in any other situation (eg WP7, Zune) they can't sell them for poo poo. The Surface is the one thing they absolutely NEED to get right, and apparently they're taking the opportunity to gently caress it up wherever possible.
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Oct 26, 2012 15:14
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Kazy posted:I think WinKey+S does screenshots, though I'm not sure if that is from another program or not. Gives me a nice error tone, so something happens.
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Oct 26, 2012 15:17
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GonadTheBallbarian posted:Anyone know how to screenshot on this thing? There's no PrntScrn button. windows logo button (on the screen) + down volume Saves it to your pictures folder and copies it to the clipboard.
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Oct 26, 2012 15:19
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So let me make sure I understand the Windows 8 tablet scene. There is a Windows 8 RT and Windows 8 Pro operating system. If the tablet has an ARM processor it will only run the RT version. Furthermore the RT version cannot run native Windows applications, instead it's simply an additional 'mobile' OS in a world where iOS, Android, and others already exist. On the Pro side, these tablets have some sort of Intel processor and all of these current tablets will technically be able to run native Windows applications if the hardware specs are good enough. This means that more basic programs like Open Office or Solitaire are probably OK but Photoshop or any 3D games are likely out. Is this about right?
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Oct 26, 2012 15:29
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That's about the size of it. RT is just a tablet that does tablet stuff (and is overpriced); a full Win8 tablet will run anything that can run on Windows. I'd hope Photoshop would still run okay, though -- I'm not a Photoshop user myself, but a whole lot of the blogger response to the idea of Win8 tablets was long the lines of "A tablet... that can run Photoshop!  " so they'd better drat well run it. That's definitely more dependent on hardware, though.e: Come to think of it I'm sure there will be at least one tablet somewhere down the line explicitly designed for running Photoshop, as a sort of next-gen Cintiq-style art machine. An all-in-one probably fits this description, and plenty of OEMs have at least one of those coming soon. loquacius fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Oct 26, 2012 |
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Oct 26, 2012 15:35
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loquacius posted:That's about the size of it. RT is just a tablet that does tablet stuff (and is overpriced); a full Win8 tablet will run anything that can run on Windows. The hardware will certainly evolve to make it possible. I hope.
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Oct 26, 2012 15:54
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Honest question: What makes the Surface RT so overpriced? I don't know about the perfomance of tegra3 compared to a5x but 599$ for the RT + touch cover is the same as 599$ for the ipad 32gb. The resolution is less but other than that it seems relatively similarly priced? Is it because the iPad is a known quantity and you think they should have launched a new entry into the market cheaper?
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Oct 26, 2012 16:00
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ChiTownEddie posted:Honest question: What makes the Surface RT so overpriced? I don't know. The Nexus 7 has the same hardware sans a gig of RAM and some storage space, and that doesn't account for 2x the price at a minimum. I can't imagine even though the Surface team has to pay Windows royalties that the software costs are marginally high either.
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Oct 26, 2012 16:05
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No. 6 posted:So let me make sure I understand the Windows 8 tablet scene. There is a Windows 8 RT and Windows 8 Pro operating system. Its Windows RT and Windows 8 and Windows 8 Pro Not windows 8 RT. ChiTownEddie posted:Honest question: What makes the Surface RT so overpriced? Microsoft has a delicate balancing act trying to do their own hardware while not pissing off their OEM's. They dont want to undercut their customers especially when they have an advantage of free windows licenses.
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Oct 26, 2012 16:10
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Protocol7 posted:I don't know. The Surface cost certainly includes whatever license fees they'd charge an OEM. They're not out to beat their OEMs on cost and make it so they can't compete, and to do that they need to charge customers the same markup an OEM needs to pay the license fee.
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Oct 26, 2012 16:14
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Don Lapre posted:Microsoft has a delicate balancing act trying to do their own hardware while not pissing off their OEM's. They dont want to undercut their customers especially when they have an advantage of free windows licenses. There's this, but that's only part of it. Again, pricing the Surface RT exactly to match the new iPad was not an accident. They're trying to bill it as an equivalent luxury as opposed to a cheaper alternative. This is a bad idea. Microsoft is not good at business.
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Oct 26, 2012 16:15
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loquacius posted:There's this, but that's only part of it. Again, pricing the Surface RT exactly to match the new iPad was not an accident. They're trying to bill it as an equivalent luxury as opposed to a cheaper alternative. This is a bad idea. Microsoft is not good at business. It's not at all a bad idea. The bad idea was not executing well enough. The entire point of the Surface was to force OEMs to put out tablets that compete with Apple on quality, rather than compete with Android on price, and that is a good idea considering Microsoft's goal is to dominate this OS market as well.
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Oct 26, 2012 16:17
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evilweasel posted:It's not at all a bad idea. The bad idea was not executing well enough. The entire point of the Surface was to force OEMs to put out tablets that compete with Apple on quality, rather than compete with Android on price. This is how I feel. Microsoft has great ideas, but absolutely abysmal execution of those ideas.
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Oct 26, 2012 16:18
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Shmoogy posted:This is how I feel. Microsoft has great ideas, but absolutely abysmal execution of those ideas. The execution doesn't appear to be that bad: they seem to have knocked it out of the park on the hardware side (with the unfortunate exception of screen resolution, which I don't understand). The problems appear to be software based. Which given Microsoft's status as a OS company is pretty inexcusable. However, I'm genuinely excited for x86 tablets that are actually good, so those might pull it off.
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Oct 26, 2012 16:19
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ChiTownEddie posted:Honest question: What makes the Surface RT so overpriced? So compared to the newest iPad, it appears to lose quite handily in performance. MS can perhaps get that up over time with patches, but it's pretty well known the Tegra 3 is simply not a great performer, Apple's custom work on their own SOC's is really paying off, they're pretty far out ahead in performance relative to the competition. quote:+ touch cover is the same as 599$ for the ipad 32gb. quote:The resolution is less Basically, the resolution on the surface is equal to $200 7" Android tablets. It's simply very low res to release on a device starting at $500 in late 2012 when the majority of the industry is moving higher, and already has higher DPI due to the same res on far smaller screens. quote:but other than that it seems relatively similarly priced? Is it because the iPad is a known quantity and you think they should have launched a new entry into the market cheaper? So why get one? Well, Office RT (which performs far worse than on an Atom currently). However, to of course really use it, you at least want the $600 model - that's presenting a damned high entry price to take advantage of the one differentiating feature of your tablet, again especially in a market where you're the underdog, and are basically shipping tablets with similar horsepower to $200 android models. As well, it's just $329 now to enter Apple's well-stocked ecosystem.
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Oct 26, 2012 16:20
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Surface is here, size seems just right for me at least. I don't think portrait mode is awkward either.
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Oct 26, 2012 16:29
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No. 6 posted:So let me make sure I understand the Windows 8 tablet scene. There is a Windows 8 RT and Windows 8 Pro operating system. If the tablet has an ARM processor it will only run the RT version. Furthermore the RT version cannot run native Windows applications, instead it's simply an additional 'mobile' OS in a world where iOS, Android, and others already exist. Some of the pro tablets are poised to basically be ultrabooks.
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Oct 26, 2012 16:31
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Typing with the touch keyboard is surprisingly good but it does take some getting used to. Also I'm typing this with it on my lap and it is comfortable. More so than my laptop surprisingly. Maybe the weight or lack thereof.
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Oct 26, 2012 17:26
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Went to one of the local Win8 launch things where they had also plenty of Microsoft people present. Turns out that outside few major launch countries, there simply aren't any RT devices available aside from some lovely acers and there won't be until next month or so. Also Surface or Surface Pro won't be available outside launch countries. Not even MS people got any, all they had was old Samsung slates.
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Oct 26, 2012 17:34
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