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Charlz Guybon posted:Didn't wikileaks say the Sauds hate the Persians more than they do the Jews, and were willing to let them pass through their airspace? There's a difference between "passing through" airspace and "setting up refueling tracks" in airspace. You can explain the former away and get at least a semblance of some plausible deniability both internationally and domestically (because the assumption will be that the jets were at low-ish altitude, high speed, and making efforts to avoid radar detection, regardless of whether or not that is actually the case), even if the government involved gave covert approval, but it's going to be pretty hard for a state that has functioning, relatively well equipped air defenses like Saudi Arabia or Turkey to explain away a couple of supposedly unidentified 707s orbiting at 30,000 ft for an hour within their airspace. e: And that's why I drew the distinction, because while the range might be similar-ish, the range on its own was never the issue; Israel has tankers. The issue has always been a) the limited number of tankers, which would curtail the amount of striking aircraft (and consequently the amount of targets that can be struck per wave of strikes) and more importantly b) where Israel is going to set up the refueling tracks...even with a load of two external tanks and one GBU-28 (plus the usual targeting pods and self defense air to air missiles and jamming pods) the F-15Is will need to at least hit the tankers on the outbound leg and honestly the IAF would probably prefer to have them hit tankers on the way in as well. The geography/geopolitics just isn't very accommodating on that front. iyaayas01 fucked around with this message at 12:33 on Oct 28, 2012 |
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Oct 28, 2012 12:28
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I know you guys mean well, and it is a working analogy, but it has irked me for a long time when people do these "x of x world" comparisons. I've heard palestinians called the irish of the arab world, and the tuareg the gypsies etc. and not only do the comparisons not fit so well, it also feels distasteful to me. I know kurds have the poo poo end, but I'd much rather learn about the reasons for it than try to draw these parallels. If it sounds too  I'm sorry, I just have a massive curiosity about the arab world and the developments going on right now, and I know very little-
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Oct 28, 2012 12:51
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Tias posted:I know you guys mean well, and it is a working analogy, but it has irked me for a long time when people do these "x of x world" comparisons. I've heard palestinians called the irish of the arab world, and the tuareg the gypsies etc. and not only do the comparisons not fit so well, it also feels distasteful to me. Its a really long story with the Kurds, their language isn't comprehensible by any ethnic group, even though related to the Iranians, and they have had bad blood with every imaginable side involved. In recent memory their first kingdom was invaded and taken over by Iran, during the Abdul Karim Qasim era of Iraq, the iraqi government attempted to integrate the Kurds into the overall government structure, notably having a Kurdish general reform the Iraqi military around the 60s. During Saddams reign poo poo hit the fan when the Iranians and Iraqis were supporting separatist movements to undermine their respective governments, the Iraqis aided the Balouch ethnic group while the Iranians went with the Kurds, you can guess how that went down. W/R/T Syria, the Assad government were allied with the PKK, my guess is the FSA doing all this dumb poo poo is because of that, but i'm not too keen on kurdish-syrian relationships. Edit: I'm a quarter kurd, and i support an independent kurdistan, but not just partitioning Iraq though, all 4 countries gotta eat poo poo and let go of their respective regions. Fizzil fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Oct 28, 2012 |
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Oct 28, 2012 13:32
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spacetimecontinuu posted:Indeed, and I really do appreciate the anology, if you'll forgive me for busting your chops. Would a post-Assad Syrian Kurdistan be anywhere near its Iraqi counterpart? I don't know if the populations are geographically contiguous or if they're separate groups unto themselves. Or would Turkey simply refuse to allow such a thing to happen?  The Kurdish Democratic Party and other local Kurdish parties have already stated they plan to pursue greater autonomy, regardless of who wins the ongoing civil war. However, both the government and rebel groups reject this. The Syrian Kurds were denied full citizenship by the government until recently, while FSA coordinators have all but stated there will be no change in policy under them. Even then, Kurds distrust the Free Syrian Army for their Turkish support. The head of the Syrian National Council is Kurdish, but he doesn't have any strong support. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Oct 28, 2012 |
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Oct 28, 2012 14:44
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Charlz Guybon posted:Didn't wikileaks say the Sauds hate the Persians more than they do the Jews, and were willing to let them pass through their airspace?
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Oct 28, 2012 16:57
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Hating someone more than Israel is very distinct from wanting to appear to hate someone more than Israel. The Saudis may have their private beliefs but visibly assisting Israel against a fellow Muslim country would be a very dangerous choice in the middle east.
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Oct 28, 2012 19:43
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Hey Brown Moses, are the latest videos of the DIY Barrel Bombs connected to the message you wanted translated a few pages back? Are you now in secret contact with people inside the military?
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Oct 28, 2012 21:23
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Canadian Surf Club posted:Hey Brown Moses, are the latest videos of the DIY Barrel Bombs connected to the message you wanted translated a few pages back? Are you now in secret contact with people inside the military? Oh no, that was just some guy messaging me on my Brown Moses Facebook account which I never use. I'm in the rather unusual situation now of journalists friending me on Facebook all the time, my friends and family must be wondering who all these new people are. It did make my day seeing those new barrel bomb videos, it's good when something pans out like that. Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Oct 28, 2012 |
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Oct 28, 2012 21:27
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Tias posted:I know you guys mean well, and it is a working analogy, but it has irked me for a long time when people do these "x of x world" comparisons. I've heard palestinians called the irish of the arab world, and the tuareg the gypsies etc. and not only do the comparisons not fit so well, it also feels distasteful to me. The Kurds are targeted by the 4 governments they mostly fall under (Syria, Turkey, Iran, and Iraq) because they refuse to assimilate. A lot of the repressive policies targeted towards them are designed to try and force them to abandon their cultural identity and integrate into the mainstream. This isn't all that uncommon as a tactic by many states, since minority ethnic groups can represent a risk to the state, as their loyalty is in question.* I can't remember when they stopped, but at one point the Turkish government referred to the Kurds as "mountain Turks" in their official documents. Depending on the state, different mixes of carrot-and-stick are used, from the relatively better conditions in Turkey, to the all out slaughter under the Ba'athist regime in Iraq. * That's the sort of rational assessment a lot of governments make, but there's obviously a lot of racism mixed in as well. And even though I say they refuse to assimilate, the reality is also that the mainstream cultures of the states in question would still look down on the Kurds, who in many cases would still be physically distinct enough from the majority ethnic group to target (to say nothing of geographically-based discrimination). The Bakhtiari people in Iran, who were targeted under the Pahlavi shahs with an assimilation campaign, were easily integrated because they were basically an offshoot of Persian culture. The Kurds are distinct in culture and language from all the majority groups around them, so trying to assimilate them is a much more expansive and brutal program.
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Oct 29, 2012 07:01
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colonelslime posted:the reality is also that the mainstream cultures of the states in question would still look down on the Kurds, who in many cases would still be physically distinct enough from the majority ethnic group to target (to say nothing of geographically-based discrimination). I feel this is really incorrect. I am an Arab and even I can't tell kurds from Arabs.
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Oct 29, 2012 07:44
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Brown Blitzkrieg posted:I feel this is really incorrect. I am an Arab and even I can't tell kurds from Arabs. Well, language/dialect and name also outwardly shown traits that will mark you as belonging to another ethnicity. To interpret the word "physically" as this might be easier for me as a non naive English speaker though 
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Oct 29, 2012 10:27
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The Islamic State of Iraq just claimed an hour ago a series of shootings and bombings which occurred over Eid al-Adha. The Islamic State of Iraq and al-Qaeda in Iraq have become increasingly active over the last few months. SANA is claiming someone blew up a bakery in downtown Damascus. Ten people are believed dead.
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Oct 29, 2012 12:48
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Well that didn't last. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20120505 I am shocked and surprised.
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Oct 29, 2012 14:13
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DarkCrawler posted:I am shocked and surprised. BBC posted:[The Hamas rocket attack] came hours after Israeli aircraft hit targets in Gaza, after militants fired rockets following the killing by Israel of a Gazan who Israel said fired mortars at its troops.
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Oct 29, 2012 14:27
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DarkCrawler posted:Well that didn't last. I like how the article essentially brushes past the tit-for-tat escalation of the situation from a local clash to some rockets being lobbed across to the Israeli retaliation to the return of full strike and counterstrike as usual.
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Oct 29, 2012 14:29
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Munin posted:I like how the article essentially brushes past the tit-for-tat escalation of the situation from a local clash to some rockets being lobbed across to the Israeli retaliation to the return of full strike and counterstrike as usual. Plucky little Israel!
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Oct 29, 2012 14:44
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I really recommended this piece examining the West dilemma when it comes to arming the opposition, really worth a read, NATO’s Arms to Syria Conundrum.
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Oct 29, 2012 14:44
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That article is quite a cynical read. If the rebels win we're not going to do anything about the ensuing ethnic cleansing. It's however important that the genocide doesn't happen with Western weapons.
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Oct 29, 2012 15:03
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Brown Blitzkrieg posted:I feel this is really incorrect. I am an Arab and even I can't tell kurds from Arabs. From everything I've read on the situation (I'm in conflict studies as part of my program, and the Kurds are a case study that comes up often), racially based discrimination is still very much a factor, at least in Turkey, where that particular case study was from. I don't know what the exact physiognomic differences are, but in Turkey at least, people seem to be able to tell the difference. Zudgemud posted:Well, language/dialect and name also outwardly shown traits that will mark you as belonging to another ethnicity. To interpret the word "physically" as this might be easier for me as a non naive English speaker though This too. Names are a huge signifier of origin. They matter a lot in situations like this. Political Whores fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Oct 29, 2012 |
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Oct 29, 2012 16:06
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So I've been reading Al Jazeera for a while now because they seem to be fairly unbiased, with stories spanning the whole world. I just learned last night that they're funded by the government of Qatar. How in the hell is that possible? Are they secretly horrible and I'm just bad at reading between the lines or did they somehow manage to circumvent the forces that give them money?
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Oct 29, 2012 20:34
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Friendly Factory posted:So I've been reading Al Jazeera for a while now because they seem to be fairly unbiased, with stories spanning the whole world. I just learned last night that they're funded by the government of Qatar. How in the hell is that possible? Are they secretly horrible and I'm just bad at reading between the lines or did they somehow manage to circumvent the forces that give them money? Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Oct 29, 2012 |
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Oct 29, 2012 20:38
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Friendly Factory posted:So I've been reading Al Jazeera for a while now because they seem to be fairly unbiased, with stories spanning the whole world. I just learned last night that they're funded by the government of Qatar. How in the hell is that possible? Are they secretly horrible and I'm just bad at reading between the lines or did they somehow manage to circumvent the forces that give them money? They're given a wide range of freedom as long as they don't investigate Qatar. Although, I recall they have published stuff critical of Qatar, like the Libyan refugee who was being bounced around, at least on the English language side.
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Oct 29, 2012 20:53
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Rent-A-Cop posted:AJ has a bias, just not one most Americans will recognize. They are very pro-Qatar and pro-Gulf states in general. They tend to neglect stories which paint the Gulf states in a negative light. Something which most of us wouldn't notice since unless something really big explodes we get no news about the Gulf states at all. Only Saudi Arabia and Bahrain (basically the same country now with the Military occupation) are part of Al Jazeera's critical scope. Qatar is frequently left out so they don't lose funding. On the other hand, this is the only censorship they have to deal with from the Qatari state and on the other hand Al Jazeera has been criticized by many Middle Eastern states since it's available over satellite which the various governments can't censor well and it's lack of Qatari criticism is still better than just being a Qatari propaganda office like other news services.
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Oct 29, 2012 21:00
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I disagree. I've always looked for bias in AJE because of Qatar but I never see it. In fact they often critisise the gulf including Qatar. They're definitely the most reputable news agency and unbiased as you can get agency I've seen. I think Qatar gives them free reign. AJ Arabic though.. I don't know. I mean, look at this: http://www.aljazeera.com/video/middleeast/2012/06/201261264715371679.html I also think there really isn't as much to report on the negatives of Qatar as there is Saudi Arabia or any other monarchy in the region. Not to say they don't have blood on their hands. Lascivious Sloth fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Oct 29, 2012 |
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Oct 29, 2012 22:57
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The Qataris have pressured them to alter content on at least one occasion: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/sep/30/al-jazeera-independence-questioned-qatar
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Oct 29, 2012 23:01
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One has to note that a lot of countries have state subsidized news services, and while there is a slight bias the fact that there are so many news services providing fast access to news from multiple sources makes it so that the bias these services can bring mostly stays limited to changing quotes to someone more favourable or using certain adjectives, there won't be any Russia Today situations with most state sponsored services in countries with any measure of press freedom.
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Oct 29, 2012 23:11
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Brown Blitzkrieg posted:I feel this is really incorrect. I am an Arab and even I can't tell kurds from Arabs.
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Oct 29, 2012 23:29
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Lady Morgaga posted:Just wondering how much practice you had telling Kurds and arabs apart. Just, you know, looking at myself and my Arab friends, then looking at my Kurdish friends. Every one of whom, when I met them, I had to ask "Are you an Arab?". Mind you, all of us speak English and most have Western culture.
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Oct 29, 2012 23:57
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Brown Blitzkrieg posted:Just, you know, looking at myself and my Arab friends, then looking at my Kurdish friends. Every one of whom, when I met them, I had to ask "Are you an Arab?". Mind you, all of us speak English and most have Western culture. Yeah i can't tell either, and i been to both Iraqi and Iranian Kurdish regions (Mariwan, and Sulaimaniye). Besides the language barrier, the social order is very similiar to Bedouin society(modern bedouins not the nomads) clans are basically extended families centered around a sheikh, who basically tries and helps clan members get something they need, its a group effort mostly, if someone wanted a car, or to work they went to their leader and asked for it then the whole clan chips in or helps out etc.
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Oct 30, 2012 01:44
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Are we sure Caro got stuck in San Diego? It's been a month now since he said anything on twitter. That's awful long for a paranoid wreck with a lot on his mind.
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Oct 30, 2012 14:04
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Vice released another short video, this time about the destruction of the old city of Aleppo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K8e3CywVUo
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Oct 30, 2012 14:44
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Volkerball posted:Are we sure Caro got stuck in San Diego? It's been a month now since he said anything on twitter. That's awful long for a paranoid wreck with a lot on his mind. I'm pretty certain, plus he's supposedly broke so he might not have internet access.
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Oct 30, 2012 15:56
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Brown Moses posted:I'm pretty certain, plus he's supposedly broke so he might not have internet access. Good. He doesn't need anyone feeding his delusions with attention.
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Oct 30, 2012 16:01
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Good. He doesn't need anyone feeding his delusions with attention. Well, you know, except psychiatrists.
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Oct 30, 2012 17:08
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Is there any more information on what's happening in Aleppo, Brown Moses? Last I heard they'd entered the Kurdish district.
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Oct 30, 2012 17:09
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Lascivious Sloth posted:I disagree. I've always looked for bias in AJE because of Qatar but I never see it. In fact they often critisise the gulf including Qatar. They're definitely the most reputable news agency and unbiased as you can get agency I've seen. I think Qatar gives them free reign. AJ Arabic though.. I don't know. Yeah, about that: quote:The ruler of Qatar, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani, has been urged by a human rights organisation not to approve a media law that will compromise press freedom. http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2012/oct/30/press-freedom-qatar
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Oct 30, 2012 18:19
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There was also some WikiLeaks-story about Al-Jazeera "adjusting" its coverage of the Iraq war after objections by the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency. Coincided with Wadah Khanfar stepping down and making place for some Qatari royalty to be the new head of the network. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/21/wadah-khanfar-al-jazeera-defends_n_973581.html
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Oct 30, 2012 18:59
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ThePutty posted:Is there any more information on what's happening in Aleppo, Brown Moses? Last I heard they'd entered the Kurdish district. There's various version of events, the most reliable one I've come across is that on Thursday October 25th opposition fighters tried to enter Ashrafieh, but were stopped by the YPG and civilian protesters. Shortly after that the area was shelled by the Syrian army and 15 people were killed. The next day while resident are arranging the funerals there's reports of the opposition entering the area again, and the local residents put together a delegation to ask them to leave. While they are doing that they receive the message that the opposition "has now liberated Ashrafiah". People take to the streets to protest it, and that protest is fired on by opposition forces, as seen in the video posted before. The YPG retaliate and kill a number of opposition fighters, capturing their equipment. Since then apparently the YPG and opposition have been in talks to ensure that doesn't happen again, apparently it's gone quite well, with the opposition admiting their mistake. I've been a little out of the loop though, so I'm not sure if there's been more recent developments.
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Oct 30, 2012 21:11
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Have you talked about the implications of Russias missile test from thursday yet?
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Oct 30, 2012 21:29
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This video gives a good example of the size of an area that can be effected by cluster bombs, you see both plenty of unexploded bomblets, plus the holes left by the ones that did explode https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPO9ifYLZeE Here we see a big bunch of children posing with what's hopefully an empty cluster bomb casing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycquKWstt0Q
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Oct 30, 2012 22:08
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