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quote:Not to resurrect the disagreement from more than a month ago, but it's really striking to me how self-critical Germany really is, especially in relation to the U.S. A lot of the world (Especially the U.S.) really does view Germany like this bit from Family Guy, Having just moved here recently, I see reminders of Fascism everywhere and never in a positive light. Dachau, Nuremberg, and even the top floor of the Audi Museum. If you tried this level of self-criticism of American atrocities in the U.S., you'd see your memorial or museum protested or burned to the ground as anti-American. Well, to give a bit of western perspective, it seems odd to a lot of people that Germany has so many censorships laws re: Nazi imagery, Nazi figures, etc. When it's illegal to show images of Hitler in the media / in public spaces, it looks like there's an attempt at revising history. Of course, that's just at face value, and people who visit Germany get a much different experience upon arrival, but a lot of westerners are quite satisfied to just take a surface examination of an issue and decide that they have all the answers.
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Nov 11, 2012 07:25
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The Ender posted:Well, to give a bit of western perspective, it seems odd to a lot of people that Germany has so many censorships laws re: Nazi imagery, Nazi figures, etc. When it's illegal to show images of Hitler in the media / in public spaces, it looks like there's an attempt at revising history. That's not a Westerner thing, it's more of a human one. Anyway, it's not at all illegal to show Hitler in the German media. The restrictions are to the use of Nazi symbols. The censorship aims at preventing Nazi propaganda. Unfortunately the legislators went so far as to disallow any use of Nazi symbols that isn't strictly for historical/educational purposes. It's not in order to revise history. While I'm skeptical about censorship and think they went overboard with this one, it's kinda understandable that the German government wants to be able to control the use of those symbols by private people.
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Nov 11, 2012 09:19
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The Ender posted:Well, to give a bit of western perspective, it seems odd to a lot of people that Germany has so many censorships laws re: Nazi imagery, Nazi figures, etc. When it's illegal to show images of Hitler in the media / in public spaces, it looks like there's an attempt at revising history. As already said, it's not at all illegal to show Hitler. Only certain symbols (swastika, SS runes) and phrases are banned, and there are a number of exceptions that allow for them to be shown in an educational, historical or artistic context. Take for example this clip of Obersalzberg, essentially a parody of The Office. Swastikas and Hitler everywhere, but entirely legal and shown on german television. Basically it's only really illegal to use these things "in earnest", so to speak. But you make a valid point in that the misunderstanding of these censorship laws is probably the leading cause of the "germany tries to bury its past" meme.
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Nov 11, 2012 10:19
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The dumbest thing is when poo poo like this happens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Germany A controversy was stirred by the decision of several police departments to begin inquiries against anti-fascists.[75] In late 2005 police raided the offices of the punk rock label and mail order store "Nix Gut Records" and confiscated merchandise depicting crossed-out swastikas and fists smashing swastikas. In 2006 the Stade police department started an inquiry against anti-fascist youths using a placard depicting a person dumping a swastika into a trashcan. The placard was displayed in opposition to the campaign of right-wing nationalist parties for local elections.[76] http://www.journalchretien.net/1869-stuttgart-seeks-to-ban-anti-fascist-symbols?lang=fr
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Nov 11, 2012 10:33
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flavor posted:I'd say those aspects are about a thousand times more important than who fought what battle with what exact type of weapons. They are, but having some kind of timeline to place events in the context of how the war was going seems important. flavor posted:I also seriously don't think having been in the SS and being proud of it is enough to warrant killing someone. It's enough for severe punishment. When that doesn't come because of German and global political reasons, well, as I said, no sympathy for SS scum.
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Nov 11, 2012 10:35
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quote:Anyway, it's not at all illegal to show Hitler in the German media. The restrictions are to the use of Nazi symbols. That's odd; I know that a lot of games have had their content changed for German releases in order to conform to the German censorship laws, and the content often involved specific depictions of Hitler, not just imagery (for example, one of the old Call of Duty games had the character model for Hitler changed, removing his mustache and having his in0game identity made ambiguous). I guess media publishers are just overly cautious.
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Nov 11, 2012 10:55
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niethan posted:The dumbest thing is when poo poo like this happens It's not stupidity that happened. The police and judicial system use every excuse they can get to suppress the left.
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Nov 11, 2012 11:24
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Orange Devil posted:
I guess I came away with a sort of different impression from most people when I visited Germany. I was in a pretty affluent part of the country with my sweetie, who's non-white and studies immigration from Turkey into Germany. While I was impressed with the handling of all of Germany's historical issues and the 'no room for Nazis in the toilet' swagger, frankly, there seemed to be a fair degree of racism in Germany, mostly just of the obtuse variety. I got yelled at to speak German (I look like I could be German) on the train. The East Asian restaurants all had ridiculous ching-chong conical hat caricatures on the menu. Things like that. On the one hand, some of this is the historical stuff that Germany, for the most part, can't be blamed for. It seemed like even issues from German imperialism (yes, it existed: Cameroon and I think Tanzania were German colonies) had been dealt with to some extent. On the other hand, in a strange way it seemed like self-laceration about Germany's own history was also a way to not think about the world at large. I mean, nationalism has been a positive force for a lot of people in a lot of places. The badness of racism isn't really a function of the malevolent intent of the racist: it's in who it affects, and there's a limit to what guilt can buy. And while it's supposedly changed, a lot of German people did seem to have this insane we-can't-criticise-them-because-look-at-us attitude about Israel. At the same time (this was after Bush II) there was also a lot of reflexive anti-americanism. Normally, this isn't the sort of thing which would bother me except that in Germany it seemed for some reason more aggressive than the anti-americanism that exists in countries with legitimate greivances against the US. I mean, most Iranians in Iran really dislike the American government, obviously. But in Germany there was this personalized nastiness ('oh, you're American. You're interested in German culture. Good for you. Tell me about your country's unhealthy disgusting food and your wars.") that I couldn't quite pin down and which doesn't exist in Iran. This isn't to run German political culture or Germany down: I admire both. I'm just a bit skeptical of this notion of Germany as a shining light of historical responsibility or that Germans now have to tow a higher standard. It seems like ressentiment to me.
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Nov 11, 2012 11:31
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:It's not stupidity that happened. The police and judicial system use every excuse they can get to suppress the left. Really? Compared to what happens with things like Occupy in the US, it seems like the left practically gets treated like the fourth branch of government in Germany. Never mind the way the gov't deals with the left in Italy and Japan.
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Nov 11, 2012 11:41
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Roadside_Picnic posted:Really? Compared to what happens with things like Occupy in the US, it seems like the left practically gets treated like the fourth branch of government in Germany. Are you serious? Yes, they don't get sent to camps, but they are definitely treated worse than the rigth. If someone is treated like a part of the government it's the neo-nazis. Tons of them are paid by the government. Roadside_Picnic, 'Am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen.' is still a widespread sentiment in Germany. For now it mostly results in Anti-Americanism and a general sense of moral superiority.
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Nov 11, 2012 11:47
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The Ender posted:That's odd; I know that a lot of games have had their content changed for German releases in order to conform to the German censorship laws, and the content often involved specific depictions of Hitler, not just imagery (for example, one of the old Call of Duty games had the character model for Hitler changed, removing his mustache and having his in0game identity made ambiguous). The games had their content changed because with practically no exception it has been games that are already running afoul of the German rating systems for glorifying violence and having nazis and nazi symbols everywhere that are being used as purely shock value would push each of them over the edge of being put on the "index" which basically means you can still buy/sell them but you cannot do any advertising at all or display them, or worst case they'd even be confiscated which means it cannot be sold at all. Confiscating happens rarely though. This has changed in recent years as all games are being rated by an industry run ratings gremium and therefore games that would previously have been put on the "index" now just get a "18 and above" rating and can't be sold/made availabe to children but do not have to be hidden away behind the counter etc. anymore. Nazi-symbols traditionally were a big "problem" in computer games in Germany because of the slightly hysteric reaction to violent computer games per se over here. "Real" media (film/tv/arts...) was able to use them just fine as long as it was obvious that the intention was not to glorify them. And as long as you were not some leftist anti-fascist in glorious Bavaria, where everything leftist is suspect 
Spice World War II fucked around with this message at 11:56 on Nov 11, 2012 |
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Nov 11, 2012 11:52
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Are you serious? Yes, they don't get sent to camps, but they are definitely treated worse than the rigth. If someone is treated like a part of the government it's the neo-nazis. Tons of them are paid by the government. I thought that couldn't have spiralled downward faster after you started it out with "Yes, they don't get sent to camps, BUT", but somehow you made it happen.
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Nov 11, 2012 12:03
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So you believe the V-Männer are a useful tool in the fight against fascism and extremism? Do you know what the government called the murder series by the NSU? Döner-Morde. Those dirty foreigners always killing each other because they are subhuman scum. Huge parts of the government are blind on the right eye. And that's a really polite way of saying it. Lucy Heartfilia fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Nov 11, 2012 |
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Nov 11, 2012 12:07
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:So you believe the V-Männer are a useful tool in the fight against fascism and extremism? Having lots of Neonazis in the police force helps, too.
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Nov 11, 2012 12:17
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xf86enodev posted:Having lots of Neonazis in the police force helps, too. It's always funny to watch how the police treats neo-nazis and how sifferent they treat anti-fascists and leftists. And by funny I mean disgusting.
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Nov 11, 2012 12:18
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The name "Döner-Morde" was a media thing. It's true, though, that the authorities were doing pretty much everything wrong (for reasons that can be tidily summed up as "racism") - and their decision to keep returning to the idea of some kind of imaginary Turkish mafia connection or something certainly encouraged everyone else to think of the murders that way. ("SoKo Bosporus" comes to mind if you're looking for officially used titles with offensive implications.)
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Nov 11, 2012 12:21
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Ah, I see. Didn't know that. I really hope that things will change for the better now, but it'll probably be just a tiny baby step.
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Nov 11, 2012 12:30
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:It's always funny to watch how the police treats neo-nazis and how sifferent they treat anti-fascists and leftists. And by funny I mean disgusting. That's because the Antifa is usually the first to throw stones.
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Nov 11, 2012 14:27
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dreamin' posted:Nazi-symbols traditionally were a big "problem" in computer games in Germany because of the slightly hysteric reaction to violent computer games per se over here. "Real" media (film/tv/arts...) was able to use them just fine as long as it was obvious that the intention was not to glorify them. The video game "censorship" thing isn't "only" a media or public overreaction issue, though. It's technically also a law issue with the laws against glorifying the nazi regime and its deeds, as well as laws against incitement of the people towards violence and the laws that ensure the protection of human dignity. Zwiebel fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Nov 11, 2012 |
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Nov 11, 2012 15:43
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dreamin' posted:Nazi-symbols traditionally were a big "problem" in computer games in Germany because of the slightly hysteric reaction to violent computer games per se over here. "Real" media (film/tv/arts...) was able to use them just fine as long as it was obvious that the intention was not to glorify them. And as long as you were not some leftist anti-fascist in glorious Bavaria, where everything leftist is suspect Speaking of Bavaria and its perception as "the Texas of Germany" and ofcourse "the birthplace of Nazism" kind of stuff, what exactly happened in Bavaria? The impression is very much that Bavaria is this kind of has-always-been-backwards part of Germany that nonetheless very much influences how Germany is perceived in foreign countries (what with the Oktoberfest and lederhosen and the feathery caps and such) and is also still very Christian. However, on the other hand we have the Bavarian Soviet Republic, which got a whole lot further with the whole communist-revolution shtick that was pretty popular in '18-'19 than most of Germany. Sure, there was the revolt and occupations in the Ruhr area, and Hamburg and Berlin are pretty left, but Bavaria? You certainly wouldn't know it today. It kinda reminds me of places like Oklahoma in the US having been communist strongholds in days past. So yeah, what happened to produce this shift? Riso posted:That's because the Antifa is usually the first to throw stones. And we all know fascists have never done anything to deserve something so violent. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Nov 11, 2012 |
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Nov 11, 2012 16:11
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:So you believe the V-Männer are a useful tool in the fight against fascism and extremism? I agree, arguably ill-advised approaches of the intelligence-gathering and law enforcement institutions and the press coining a hopelessly stupid and insensitive term is clear evidence in support of Nazis being treated as a part of government. Furthermore, it also validates whatever abortion of a comment this still is Lucy Heartfilia posted:Yes, they don't get sent to camps, but they are definitely treated worse than the rigth.
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Nov 11, 2012 16:27
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Orange Devil posted:Speaking of Bavaria and its perception as "the Texas of Germany" and ofcourse "the birthplace of Nazism" kind of stuff, what exactly happened in Bavaria? The impression is very much that Bavaria is this kind of has-always-been-backwards part of Germany that nonetheless very much influences how Germany is perceived in foreign countries (what with the Oktoberfest and lederhosen and the feathery caps and such) and is also still very Christian. However, on the other hand we have the Bavarian Soviet Republic, which got a whole lot further with the whole communist-revolution shtick that was pretty popular in '18-'19 than most of Germany. Sure, there was the revolt and occupations in the Ruhr area, and Hamburg and Berlin are pretty left, but Bavaria? You certainly wouldn't know it today. It kinda reminds me of places like Oklahoma in the US having been communist strongholds in days past. So yeah, what happened to produce this shift? By the way, the Nazis did not have particularly strong support in the catholic areas of Germany (one of which is of course most of Bavaria), so while Munich was indeed the "Hauptstadt der Bewegung", I'm not so sure about the "the birthplace of Nazism" thing.
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Nov 11, 2012 17:37
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I said perception, as opposed to reality. As for the rest, that's all well and good, but other than going from poor to affluent doesn't really answer my question as to how a place that had apparently such support for far-left ideas is now the most conservative part of the country.
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Nov 11, 2012 18:37
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Just a minor nitpick, but pictures of Hitler actually do fall under the umbrella of §86a StGB. Here's just one link, about someone distributing postcards with pictures of Hitler on them, which he was fined for. The relevant part:quote:Nach heute einhelliger Rechtsprechung (BGH a.a.O.; BGHSt 28, 394/396; OLG Schleswig MDR 1978, 333; OLG Celle NJW 1991, 1497; OLG Rostock NStZ 2002, 320), der sich der Senat anschließt, stellt auch das Kopfbild Adolf Hitlers ein verfassungswidriges Kennzeichen im Sinne des § 86a StGB dar. Dabei kommt es nicht darauf an, ob Hitler als Führer der NSDAP, als Reichskanzler oder als Staatsoberhaupt dargestellt wird (BGHSt 28, 394/396). Es ist ferner unerheblich, ob auf der Abbildung zusätzlich ein Hakenkreuz, das Hauptkennzeichen der NSDAP (BGHSt 28, 394/395), oder ein zum „Deutschen Gruß” erhobener Arm zu sehen sind. I also (mis)remembered a case from a couple of years ago here in Berlin where someone was chilling in a park wearing a shirt with a picture of Hitler's face on it, which got the police called on him (who thoroughly mishandled the case when they told the nazis who it was that called them, which lead to the nazis attacking them after the police left without doing anything). But it turns out the shirt also had "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer" on it, and that's already enough to be illegal anyhow. Here's a summary of that.
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Nov 11, 2012 19:22
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Orange Devil posted:I said perception, as opposed to reality. As for the rest, that's all well and good, but other than going from poor to affluent doesn't really answer my question as to how a place that had apparently such support for far-left ideas is now the most conservative part of the country. Wasn't the heart of communistic revolution limited to Munich? I doubt that the farmers in the surrounding land had much to say about the whole thing. In fact as far as I remember, the Freikorps (basically fascist informal armies of WWI veterans) who retook the city were in parts recruited from rural Bavaria.
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Nov 11, 2012 19:50
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The difference between the rural and urban areas is one more thing that makes Bavaria similar to Texas.
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Nov 11, 2012 20:26
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It makes pretty much any state with a big rural population and a smallish number of urban areas similar to any other state with a big rural population and a smallish number of urban areas.
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Nov 11, 2012 22:18
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Orange Devil posted:And we all know fascists have never done anything to deserve something so violent. What a nice feel-good excuse that applies to every group ever, with the possible exception of the salvation army. You seem to be very prone to excuse violence if it's from "your" side of the political spectrum.
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Nov 12, 2012 00:23
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Roadside_Picnic posted:I was in a pretty affluent part of the country with my sweetie, who's non-white and studies immigration from Turkey into Germany. While I was impressed with the handling of all of Germany's historical issues and the 'no room for Nazis in the toilet' swagger, frankly, there seemed to be a fair degree of racism in Germany, mostly just of the obtuse variety. I got yelled at to speak German (I look like I could be German) on the train. The East Asian restaurants all had ridiculous ching-chong conical hat caricatures on the menu. Things like that. Roadside_Picnic posted:On the one hand, some of this is the historical stuff that Germany, for the most part, can't be blamed for. It seemed like even issues from German imperialism (yes, it existed: Cameroon and I think Tanzania were German colonies) had been dealt with to some extent. My personal explanation for the anti-americanism has two main components: Cultural arrogance and cognitive dissonance. After WWII, Germans have been taught to be a shining beacon of peacefulness, not least by the Americans. At some point this became so engrained in the national consciousness that even the people who do the fighting instead of Germans are seen as barbarians. Germans have always had a very high regard for high-brow culture and arts. This, together with having gotten the message about WWII, a huge welfare state and a lot of economic success are the building blocks of German self-esteem. In a way, if the world were a just place, Germany or at least its principles would rule it. (I'm not saying that, I'm just giving you the spirit here). So now you come in, from a country that isn't that sophisticated in the eyes of most Germans, but is still economically successful and, most importantly is the one that is closest to actually ruling the world. This can't be! You must be some barbarian or crook! Roadside_Picnic posted:This isn't to run German political culture or Germany down: I admire both. I'm just a bit skeptical of this notion of Germany as a shining light of historical responsibility or that Germans now have to tow a higher standard. It seems like ressentiment to me.
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Nov 12, 2012 03:34
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Anyone seen this? http://uhupardo.wordpress.com/2012/11/11/merkels-regierung-will-offentliche-ausstrahlung-eines-videos-uber-portugals-sparpolitik-verhindern/ Apparently "the government" has banned a (badly translated) portuguese video from being show in Berlin, but don't you dare asking for sources. You want sources, find them yourself or shut up.
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Nov 12, 2012 10:07
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elwood posted:Anyone seen this? What a bad blog post. Where did they want to show the film? When? How can Merkel prevent the showing? And if you ask these in the comments the guy gets evasive. edit: Video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeThdf1Q1j4 Goa Tse-tung fucked around with this message at 11:07 on Nov 12, 2012 |
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Nov 12, 2012 11:03
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flavor posted:You seem to be very prone to excuse violence if it's from "your" side of the political spectrum. No, just against fascists. Especially when the government doesn't do much against them.
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Nov 12, 2012 11:27
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flavor posted:I've always seen a certain feeling, across the German political spectrum, that Germany has the best of everything, knows better than anyone else and the world would be a better place if everyone did as Germany does. A part of that is simply nationalism, paired with some ignorance, but it's still fascinating in light of its history. On the other hand I guess it's just people being people. Hahaha what is this post? I don't really wanna shitpost all the time but basically everything you write is wrong.
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Nov 12, 2012 11:42
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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Germany Discussion: In-depth psychoanalysis of the German population
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Nov 12, 2012 12:19
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xf86enodev posted:Hahaha what is this post? A very valuable contribution from one of the best minds here no doubt! Totally not a generic post that someone who has no arguments would make!
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Nov 12, 2012 12:30
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KaneTW posted:The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Germany Discussion: In-depth psychoanalysis of the German population A person describes their impressions of Germany and I'm not allowed to give mine or what? If you don't like my post, either reply to the contents or move on.
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Nov 12, 2012 12:33
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No, I'm saying that armchair psychoanalyzing is pretty much a waste of words. It wasn't only directed at you, the whole derail is going on for like 2 pages.
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Nov 12, 2012 12:36
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xf86enodev posted:Hahaha what is this post? Did you somehow miss how he started with "I've always seen"? You're free to tell us how "You've always seen (the exact opposite)" instead of self-admitted shitposting. On a topic(?)-related note, I'm still trying to figure out how we went from a guy pointing out how self-aware and self-critical Germany is of it's dark past to whatever we're talking about now, because I wanted to throw in a comment about the Gummiparagraph and then went back to see if that was still a derail/a derail at all. Basically: 
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Nov 12, 2012 13:12
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:It's always funny to watch how the police treats neo-nazis and how sifferent they treat anti-fascists and leftists. And by funny I mean disgusting. My impression was, that "leftist" demonstrations get violent much quicker (Chaostage, 1th of May, Castor), while the Neonazi marches usually are relatively peaceful (probably because the few hundred neonazis are separated by thousands of police from the ten thousands of counter demonstrators). xf86enodev posted:Having lots of Neonazis in the police force helps, too. Do you have any source on this? The last thing I remember is Nadja Drygalla who was expelled from the police force for only being associated with someone from NPD. That's also all that a quick google search came up with. Roadside_Picnic posted:I got yelled at to speak German (I look like I could be German) on the train. The East Asian restaurants all had ridiculous ching-chong conical hat caricatures on the menu. Things like that. To counter your anecdote with an anecdote, I was called a dirty foreigner for answering the question if I want soda with "No I'd like a cola" when ordering at a fast food restaurant (by a white high-school age girl) and got threathened for sitting in the back of the bus by some black college age guys. At least I guess that's what it was about, I did understand only half of it. (People in New Jersey do sound different from the people on TV, I learned  )Roadside_Picnic posted:On the other hand, in a strange way it seemed like self-laceration about Germany's own history was also a way to not think about the world at large. I mean, nationalism has been a positive force for a lot of people in a lot of places. The badness of racism isn't really a function of the malevolent intent of the racist: it's in who it affects, and there's a limit to what guilt can buy. And while it's supposedly changed, a lot of German people did seem to have this insane we-can't-criticise-them-because-look-at-us attitude about Israel. This is a typical right wing/conservative attitude. Roadside_Picnic posted:At the same time (this was after Bush II) there was also a lot of reflexive anti-americanism. Normally, this isn't the sort of thing which would bother me except that in Germany it seemed for some reason more aggressive than the anti-americanism that exists in countries with legitimate greivances against the US. While this is typical left to center. It also had more to do with Bush II than anything, we just couldn't understand that our beloved America voted for this dumb warmonger twice. We love Democrats (because they actually fit into our political landscape, if at the right fringe) and the attitude since Obama is in office has changed considerably.
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Nov 12, 2012 14:14
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KaneTW posted:No, I'm saying that armchair psychoanalyzing is pretty much a waste of words. It wasn't only directed at you, the whole derail is going on for like 2 pages. Derail? From what? Talking about Germans' feelings about their country and the world is a derail from the thread topic of "Germany Discussion"? It doesn't get more "Germany Discussion"-ey than talking about German Selbstverständnis, and German history.
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Nov 12, 2012 19:28
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