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Because it's not discussion, it's anecdotal evidence piled upon anecdotal evidence.
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Nov 12, 2012 19:47
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Anecdotal evidence lacks the so called German efficiency. While I do like to read someones opinions on the matter, I think you might just be overthinking it, flavor. I don't think there's a need to try to analyze Germans about anti-americanism. There's always been a lot of political and cultural dissonance between the nations and a lot of political decisions America made in the last decade certainly haven't helped their reputation. That's all there is to it. Political grievances. Orange Devil posted:I said perception, as opposed to reality. As for the rest, that's all well and good, but other than going from poor to affluent doesn't really answer my question as to how a place that had apparently such support for far-left ideas is now the most conservative part of the country. It's a good question, really. However, a far left movement during the time after the first world war doesn't necessarily account for much. A lot of minor revolutions happened before the Weimar Republic managed to get fully established. Which isn't surprising, given that the first world war created a necessity for political reforms. While, ultimately, the Republic wouldn't just get rid of the socialists, you have to keep in mind that there was sort of a growing red scare in europe after the russian revolution in 1917. These things take time, so it took a couple years before a lot of socialists grew scared of communism. The same people that might have said "this stuff is great" in 1919, might have been scared shitless of the bolsheviks four or five years later. The German communists certainly didn't establish a good reputation in the Republic either. In fact, the NSDAP (nationalsocialistic german worker party) was generally seen as the more benevolent political party and thus gained a lot more support from the other parties than the KPD (communistic party germany) did. At least that's how I would explain it from what I remember about the history of the Weimar Republic. The Bavarian Soviet Republic is, at best, an easily overshadowed footnote in the history books, though. Aside from that, I think the massive war and rebuilding process as well as trying to find a new political identity could certainly account for a reshuffleing of values. I'm not an expert on these matters, though. Zwiebel fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Nov 12, 2012 |
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Nov 12, 2012 19:50
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flavor posted:No. This is a while ago, but I actually have to make a slight apology here: I assumed that the RAF had hit more nazis than they actually did, based on what now appears to be faulty information. I should obviously have checked it before posting. Sorry! This does not invalidate the main point of my post, which is that accusing someone of "white-knighting" a group like the RAF on as incredibly shaky foundation as having "no sympathy" for "some of their victims" is completely groundless and really quite offensive. I also note that you did essentially the same with my post, apparently deliberately misconstruing a statement about the relative shittyness of different terrorist actions as support of RAF/leftist terrorist activity in general. Insinuating that people support terrorism is not OK unless you've got pretty solid foundation for it, and I find it quite objectionable, as I've already stated.
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Nov 12, 2012 20:34
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flavor posted:Germans have always had a very high regard for high-brow culture and arts. This, together with having gotten the message about WWII, a huge welfare state and a lot of economic success are the building blocks of German self-esteem. In a way, if the world were a just place, Germany or at least its principles would rule it. (I'm not saying that, I'm just giving you the spirit here). This feeling is not unique to Germany at all and it's definitely not specifically about Germany or it's principles, it's about the extraordinary level of social inequality in the US. Previously on GBS fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Nov 12, 2012 |
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Nov 12, 2012 21:26
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What I've missed to acknowledge until today (echt!) is how much Germany has become the centre of political attention again. And I think it's stupid. Why? Why are we different? We're just a part of Europe. We're no different from Portuguese, Greeks or Turkish. We all share a history of art and war and collaboration. We have shared borders, we have fought about borders and we have overcome borders. Our anti-americanism? Is it any special? Our fear of change? Our struggle with a troublesome past? What is it? Is Merkel the next Hitler? Is this what people really are afraid about? I don't get it. edit: Also food for thought wrt the current economic situation and to maybe stear the discussion to somewhere: Many many years ago, Germany was the first country in the EU to receive several "blue letters" a few years* in a row reminding them to pay their bills on time. I think this was shortly after the Euro was introduced. And I think that's when Germany invented the term "Sparkurs" which Mrs. Merkel is now preaching about everywhere in Europe  Also gently caress banks. eta: *) Those were the years when Germany still had an unemployment rate of 19% I mention this because today I've learned Portugal has an unemployment rate of 16% or something. But yeah gently caress banks. xf86enodev fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Nov 12, 2012 |
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Nov 12, 2012 23:31
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xf86enodev posted:And I think it's stupid. Why? Why are we different? The current inequality in economic power also helps build up animosities (both ways), and so there's more country-specific blaming than when everything seemed to be humming along just fine...
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Nov 13, 2012 01:18
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So Dutch news is reporting that the German intelligence agencies had connections with German and Dutch neonazi organisations, including tipping them off when home searches or arrests were going to happen. Apparently this is a big thing right now, anyone got more info?
Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Nov 13, 2012 |
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Nov 13, 2012 14:46
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There's some stuff going on with the recent investigations into the "Terrorzelle Nationalsozialistischer Untergrund" (national-socialist underground = NSU). It's a small group that was uncovered in 2011, which apparently developed from the 1990ies neonazi scene in eastern thuringia. There's multiple accounts of murder attributed to the NSU as well as some bank robberies. The investigations into the group could be summed up as "a giant clusterfuck" and a lot of people are losing their jobs over it. I'll mention a couple of things: There was an attempt at catching the group back in 1999 by a Spezialeinsatzkommando (=SEK, basically equivalent to SWAT). The attempt was cancelled as the SEK was about to leave, causing a lot of complaints from the involved officers. A lot of the controversy about it arises from the so called "V-Personen" (sometimes "V-Männer"), basically snitches for an office, who aren't part of whatever office they might be supplying with information. The official definition of a "V-Person" is something like "A person that without belonging to an office of law enforcement is still willing to confidentially support the investigations and prosecution of criminal activity while keeping his or her identity obscured". For the sake of keeping things simple, I'll just refer to them as snitches. During the investigations into the group, officials from the Thuringia Office for the Protection of the constitution apparently sabotaged investigations looking into the criminal activities of some of their snitches, utilized them to supply the NSU with money (for reasons that seem pretty retarded and that hopefully make more sense in context), protected their snitches against criminal prosecution and purposefully withheld information. The entire thing is a huge mess and a huge failure on the part of everyone involved. EDIT: Clarification. Zwiebel fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Nov 13, 2012 |
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Nov 13, 2012 17:32
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The V-Personen clusterfuck is also a nice blast from the past, because when the government tried to outlaw the far-right NPD about ten years back the case was dropped when it came to light that there were V-Personen in all levels of the party, up to and including in the very leadership. That made it impossible to say whether all the unconstitutional stuff they said and did had, in fact, been said and done by people that were on the payroll of the Office for the Protection of the Constitution.  The whole NSU thing is just too depressing for words. I hadn't heard about it affecting the Netherlands too, but it really wouldn't surprise me if that's true.
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Nov 13, 2012 17:57
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Holy crap, I didn't even know the V-Personen were just snitches. I always thought they were like covert investigators. The more you know.
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Nov 13, 2012 18:51
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That's the absolute best part. The Verfassungsschutz is literally handing money to nazis (in my imagination, they do that with big ol' sacks with Euro signs on them) in the hopes that they will a) leak information which b) isn't made-up bullshit. It's just great.
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Nov 13, 2012 19:53
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Our tax euros are subsidizing Nazis for being Nazis. Worst Beschäftigungsmaßnahme ever.
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Nov 13, 2012 19:58
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Ententod posted:Our tax euros are subsidizing Nazis for being Nazis. Worst Beschäftigungsmaßnahme ever. Actually, going by the definition of V-Person, they are subsidizing Nazis for remaining Nazis. The entire idea is that these snitches keep sticking with their crowd and keep supplying information as opposed to an informant that would do it just for the case at hand. 
Zwiebel fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Nov 13, 2012 |
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Nov 13, 2012 20:27
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Orange Devil posted:So Dutch news is reporting that the German intelligence agencies had connections with German and Dutch neonazi organisations, including tipping them off when home searches or arrests were going to happen. Apparently this is a big thing right now, anyone got more info? Well, we also have police officers who joined the KKK for a while: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/schwaebische-polizisten-beim-ku-klux-klan-zum-flirten-1.1429592 Cooperation with German and foreign neonazi organizations. Funding of German neonazis. Neonazis and KKK members in the police force. It's disgusting. And the police also hosed up when Zschäpe from the NSU called them to turn herself in. The cop was so loving stupid he didn't get anything and frustrated she had to give up and go to a lawyer who did the turning in for her. http://www.abendblatt.de/politik/deutschland/article110834655/Ich-bin-die-die-Sie-suchen.html Lucy Heartfilia fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Nov 13, 2012 |
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Nov 13, 2012 22:01
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Reading this thread I feel like living in Drittes Reich 2.0.
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Nov 13, 2012 22:08
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Let's hope she never finds out about Golden Dawn in Greece; her head might explode.
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Nov 13, 2012 22:16
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Riso posted:Let's hope she never finds out about Golden Dawn in Greece; her head might explode. Those guy are fun!  
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Nov 13, 2012 22:23
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Ah, the ancient Apollonian sun salute.
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Nov 13, 2012 22:31
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Nah, they're fingerspelling the first letter of "nazi"
Zwille fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Nov 13, 2012 |
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Nov 13, 2012 22:37
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V. Illych L. posted:This is a while ago, but I actually have to make a slight apology here: I assumed that the RAF had hit more nazis than they actually did, based on what now appears to be faulty information. I should obviously have checked it before posting. Sorry! My problem with the attitude of "I'm not a terrorist or sympathizer, but I have no sympathy for the victims" is that it's a little like "I'm not a racist, but these people ARE a different type of humans" and it misses the point that terrorism is unacceptable because it causes collateral damage and if the victims really were guilty of something, they should have had a fair trial. And I simply don't believe that people can separate cleanly between applauding the outcome of something and the applauding the people who did it. I've never seen anyone do that at least.
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Nov 14, 2012 01:10
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Previously on GBS posted:This feeling is not unique to Germany at all and it's definitely not specifically about Germany or it's principles, it's about the extraordinary level of social inequality in the US. Oh okay, sorry. I should have seen the correct and objective reason for German anti-americanism, which has nothing to do with Germany or the background of the individual at all, but is based on some statistics. The problem with this is that if people would become anti-<insert country here> based on very objective things, they'd be just as much against some other countries, if not more so. But this doesn't happen for many reasons, one of them being that those other countries are not at the center of attention.
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Nov 14, 2012 01:18
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Trust me when I tell you that Germans don't feel "superior" to americans just because we're Germans and they're Americans, it's about specific things they do we disagree with and the direction the country has been heading. If you asked any frenchman on his view of the matter, I would put down my life's savings that his answer would be nearly identical to mine, my neighbors or my English barber. Hell, I have American friends who have the same views on their own country that I do.
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Nov 14, 2012 10:46
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az posted:Trust me when I tell you that Germans don't feel "superior" to americans just because we're Germans and they're Americans, it's about specific things they do we disagree with and the direction the country has been heading.
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Nov 14, 2012 10:56
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A week ago our Skat group unironically drank to the American people for not loving up re-electing Obama.
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Nov 14, 2012 12:35
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Sereri posted:The main points being
I disagree that German anti-americanism isn't real and widespread.
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Nov 14, 2012 13:32
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Anti-americanism is not specificly German, it's all of Europe.
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Nov 14, 2012 14:07
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Riso posted:Anti-americanism is not specificly German, it's all of Europe. And the world really...
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Nov 14, 2012 19:12
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DerDestroyer posted:And the world really... And some of america too.
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Nov 14, 2012 19:14
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Riso posted:Anti-americanism is not specificly German, it's all of Europe. DerDestroyer posted:And the world really... Resource posted:And some of america too. 
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Nov 14, 2012 19:23
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Does anyone like the Yanks? Plucky little Israel.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:23
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Does anyone like the Yanks? Right wing parties in Europe love them, they've been emulating their economic policies for years now!
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Nov 14, 2012 22:35
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Orange Devil posted:Plucky little Israel. Mans posted:Right wing parties in Europe love them, they've been emulating their economic policies for years now! Still, to be at least a bit related, anything up with Ober-Schwaben? Haven't been keepin' in touch like I should.
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Nov 14, 2012 23:41
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Ententod posted:
If you also hate those things about America, will Germans treat you without condescension?
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Nov 15, 2012 00:06
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Still, to be at least a bit related, anything up with Ober-Schwaben? Haven't been keepin' in touch like I should. I like how more and more of BaWü turns green. Makes me hope for a distant future where Green Pirates rule the country. Of course, Grüne would have to stop their pseudo-PC infighting first and Piraten would have to stop being insufferable pony-watching, women-hating nerds. Ah, a man can dream. But seriously, Grüne gaining traction especially after FDP's demise is an awesome thing. People finally start taking them seriously and more importantly they start taking themselves seriously. What's Fischer up to nowadays anyway? I'm glad that fucker seems to be gone for good. I'd imagine he's gone pumping oil with Schröder and Putin. e: And his old friend Schily is mixing the drinks.
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Nov 15, 2012 00:07
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Cjones posted:If you also hate those things about America, will Germans treat you without condescension? Uh wtf? We just don't like inconsiderate assholes. Unless we're drunk. Seriously, the last few pages really make me feel bad about how people see us from the "outside". Come visit us in Berlin, have some beer with us, eat some freedom fries and see how it really is. We'll talk about WWII and GWB and maybe about Jacque Chirac, Berlusconi and Putin if you've heard of those. It'll be cool. e: Just realised this post may seem quite condescending. I guess you're right. We're hosed. e2: I blame it all on Goethe and Schiller. And Kafka. Also Brecht and Tucholsky. drat. xf86enodev fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Nov 15, 2012 |
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Nov 15, 2012 00:18
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I'ma triple post for this, on the subject of how we cope with the war. They made us perform a play by Tucholsky in school when we were 16. It ruined our feeble hearts. e: Somebody explain to me why we can still send troops to die after all of this. xf86enodev fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Nov 15, 2012 |
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Nov 15, 2012 00:32
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xf86enodev posted:Uh wtf? We just don't like inconsiderate assholes. Unless we're drunk. I have a few friends from Germany I keep in contact with-- awesome guys and the reason I'm relearning Deutsch. Planning on a re-union in Germany some time in a year or two, just want to try not to send out bad vibes over there.
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Nov 15, 2012 01:09
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Cjones posted:If you also hate those things about America, will Germans treat you without condescension?  xf86enodev posted:I like how more and more of BaWü turns green. Makes me hope for a distant future where Green Pirates rule the country. I wanna say that the Piraten will grow up but yeah, I dunno. Cjones posted:I have a few friends from Germany I keep in contact with-- awesome guys and the reason I'm relearning Deutsch. Planning on a re-union in Germany some time in a year or two, just want to try not to send out bad vibes over there.
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Nov 15, 2012 01:18
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Does anyone like the Yanks? 
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Nov 15, 2012 01:36
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I mean the stuff Flavor wrote about really made me think and maybe there's even some reason to it. Back when I was in school I actually thought our roots like Goethe and Schiller actually meant something. But yeah, everybody knows how this goes. Who cares about writers? The average German won't know about Brecht and Tucholsky either, as important as their stuff may be nowadays. On the other hand you're probably going to meet a few people who know about Thompson or Bukowsky; if you're lucky they'll even know Vonnegut. In general people care about what's going on today and how it's affecting them and the ones next to them. Some people may act like "hipsters" about it but also we haven't yet started using a term like this to denounce anyone. e: btw, of all the writers I've namedropped in all my posts Vonnegut is still my all-time favourite 
xf86enodev fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Nov 15, 2012 |
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Nov 15, 2012 01:45
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