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Dorroile posted:Aren't they pretty much just colleagues though? That's the vibe i always got, at least. They weren't some SUPER FRIENDS like in P4, they were just people who worked towards the same goal mostly.
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Jan 28, 2013 00:45
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And unfortunately, as much as I like Junpei, he is completely ruined by the sheer awfulness that is the Midori arc.
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Jan 28, 2013 00:46
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Akihiko is the most boring character and Mitsuru is literally "I'm sorry" the character. They barely change even in Arena where now Mitsuru doesn't shut up about the Kirijo group and Akihiko is exactly the same except he doesn't shut up about protein and they both are dressed horribly. I cannot think of a single thing Akihiko or Mitsuru did that was even remotely interesting except for Akihiko's swimsuit... which was topped by Kanji's in Golden.
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Jan 28, 2013 00:46
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Not to mention unlike, say P4 the stuff that happened in FATE events actually had a minor (and sometimes major) impact on other scenes. I've played the game several times and I have never seen Fate events even get mentioned outside of the end of day emails and the joining scenes on the last day. I don't think characters that aren't guaranteed even have important lines on the last game ending paths.
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Jan 28, 2013 00:47
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WrightOfWay posted:I've played the game several times and I have never seen Fate events even get mentioned outside of the end of day emails and the joining scenes on the last day. I don't think characters that aren't guaranteed even have important lines on the last game ending paths. I'll admit I haven't played in a while but I could have sworn I recalled certain nods towards the things that happen in someones FATE happening in other locations, if I'm wrong I guess I misremembered.
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Jan 28, 2013 00:48
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I like both of them, though Akihiko's persona evolution was weird. He went from caring about his friend to... caring about training? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Also, Mitsuru isn't the "I'm sorry" character, she's the "I knew the entire plot" character, at least until around New Year's.
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Jan 28, 2013 00:48
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Sex_Ferguson posted:I cannot think of a single thing Akihiko or Mitsuru did that was even remotely interesting except for Akihiko's swimsuit... which was topped by Kanji's in Golden. Well, P3P did add one good thing. Kind of.  Otherwise yeah.
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Jan 28, 2013 00:50
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The P3 cast being colleagues who barely tolerate each other could have worked, but there... wasn't much of a group dynamic. They barely interacted with each other as a group outside of full moons, and the only time they really get any chance at all to interact during the full moon is early on. Like, if there had been group events like in P4, only with them arguing and sniping at each other instead of being BFFs, and then they grew to like each other over the course of the game, I would have really enjoyed that. Instead you sorta get that with Mitsuru and Yukari (specifically, those two, with eachother) and sooorta with Junpei and the MC, but that's about it.
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Jan 28, 2013 00:51
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Nate RFB posted:And that is boring! No one gives a poo poo about the intricacies and inter-personal relationships of the Strange Journey task force for the same reason. In a game like SJ that's fine, but with P3 with its larger emphasis on character development it is detrimental. I didn't say it worked well! Nothing really worked well in P3, it was a mishmash of themes and ideas that didn't really go anywhere, and it's just kind of a hot mess in general. I just like the idea of having a JRPG crew that AREN'T best friends forever who would take a bullet for each other and get married, and at least it tried.
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Jan 28, 2013 00:52
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I think with the cast of P3 vs. P4 it comes down to preference, since they have very different focuses and purposes as stories. My theory is that they didn't really know how well Social Links would work in P3, which is why the main story sort of avoids any potential influence by them; you don't have Social Links with most of your party, and the story avoids having your Links turn up in it. In P3 the story comes first, and the characterization comes later, and as a result yeah, the characters are more like colleagues and you don't get to know them much. I think when P4 came around they knew how much people cared about characters, and tried to capitalize on that, because the plot is very character-driven. As a result yes, you do get to know your party members a lot better than in P3. You may not want to, you may loving hate some of these party members (I know I suffered because I didn't like Rise), but you have to associate with them. Ironically I think P3's method of AI-controlled teammates would have worked better in P4, since the party members are more characters of their own. EDIT: Not saying hat both games didn't have their own problems, but they did come at the whole thing from completely different directions. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Jan 28, 2013 |
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Jan 28, 2013 00:52
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Cleretic posted:I think with the cast of P3 vs. P4 it comes down to preference, since they have very different focuses and purposes as stories. Exactly, still I felt more natural and relatable the interaction between SEES than the Investigation Team. Granted, I'm kind of a cynical bastard so that influenced how I saw the dynamic in P4. 
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Jan 28, 2013 01:09
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Yeah, Persona 3 definitely felt like a sort of proof of concept work. It was a radical departure from both other MegaTen games and other JRPGs so it's not like they had a lot to base it on besides kinda sorta the Press-Turn System for gameplay. You would hope that they would iteratively improve its concepts, and thus far I think they have. Imagine if the Tales teams had abandoned the LMBS after Phantasia.
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Jan 28, 2013 01:10
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Not to mention unlike, say P4 the stuff that happened in FATE events actually had a minor (and sometimes major) impact on other scenes. This was easily the biggest problem I had with P4. When one of the crew had their Persona evolve in 3, it was a moment of triumph for the character. It was something important to their story arc. In P4, it felt a lot more clinical. I know it was supposed to tie in to the idea that the Investigation Team were closer than SEES, but personally, I felt like I was cheated of some character development. I also thought the endgame of P4 was seriously lacking as well, but P3 was probably the finest ending I've seen in any game, so take that how you will.
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Jan 28, 2013 01:13
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The GIG posted:In all honesty, a system like that could rule in an RPG that's more about people stuck together and being forced to work together out of necessity or something, but in a game where you're supposed to be a tight unit with you calling the shots, it's kinda odd to not be able to go "Hey Junpei, you know that thing that's resisting your slashing? I'm just saying, but maybe your fire attacks will work better." Accept you're not a tight unit at all? A lot of the game's story was driven or influenced by the internal strife within the group. At the beginning, you were pretty far from a tight knit group. You were more like a group of strangers who were only working together out of circumstance. Then there was early strife and teamwork issues the group had to work out. As you resolved your differences and the Fool arcana ranked up, the game represented the growing friendships with you being able to issue more exact commands through the orders menu. They really went out of their way to make you feel like you were kind of like an outsider imposing yourself on this group, and that certain elements didn't agree with your leadership. That was a big part of the game.
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Jan 28, 2013 01:50
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Right, that's the theory, but the AI was so bad that it came off less as 'they're not comfortable with you calling the shots' and more 'holy poo poo you guys are stupid stop healing them with Agi dammit'.
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Jan 28, 2013 02:03
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Pureauthor posted:Right, that's the theory, but the AI was so bad that it came off less as 'they're not comfortable with you calling the shots' and more 'holy poo poo you guys are stupid stop healing them with Agi dammit'. Yeah, I'm not going to dispute that. Like I said before, I just wish they tried making improvements to the system instead of giving up and giving everyone full control from the start. I realize this is probably a pretty unpopular opinion, but I like the concept of being in charge of a group that consists of people acting mostly independently, and who slowly grow closer as the game goes on. It was pretty interesting in P3 and I don't think it was quite as bad as some people made it out to be, and it made me want something like it done much better.
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Jan 28, 2013 02:09
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I like having AI party members too. You know you can play P4 with AI party members right? I like the game better that way.
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Jan 28, 2013 02:20
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The_Frag_Man posted:I like having AI party members too. You know you can play P4 with AI party members right? Yeah, but instead of improving that aspect of the game, they actually removed some of the commands you can issue and it's pretty much objectively worse than P3's AI system. I think people are kind of misunderstanding what I'm saying here. I liked P4's battle system quite a bit. I liked it more than P3's. P3's was pretty flawed, all said. But I felt like the idea behind it was really solid and they should have built on that instead of making that aspect worse and just throwing in direct control.
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Jan 28, 2013 02:24
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Yeah, while it fell flat in some parts I do like how in P3 it was obvious that most of the people were simply tolerating one another rather than being best friends forever, it was an interesting dynamic you don't see much in jrpgs. (it's usually only just one character at most) I think you nailed why P3's cast struck me as more organic: they all had to get past each other's problems. They embarrassed, irritated, argued with, neglected, misunderstood, and hurt each other. They were reluctant to expose their vulnerable sides or dump their problems on each other. They were busy and had other poo poo going on. Everyone had to deal with it. That's going to happen with people in your life and definitely resonates with anyone who lived in a dorm. It sounds really god damned obvious but I guess that just underscores how awful most other vidja game writing is.
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Jan 28, 2013 02:47
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The problem is that for 90% of the game they are just kind of...there. Some dudes off the corner you talk to every now and then. And then the game ends and they still don't really like each other all that much other than agreeing that drat that one guy who actually got us died, man hanging around each other is going to be pretty awkward. Which funnily enough reared its head quite nicely in The Answer.
Nate RFB fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Jan 28, 2013 |
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Jan 28, 2013 02:52
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I think we can all agree that Yosuke is the worst character ever in the whole SMT series.
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Jan 28, 2013 04:21
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Veks posted:I think we can all agree that Yosuke is the worst character ever in the whole SMT series. Not even in the top five.
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Jan 28, 2013 04:23
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Veks posted:I think we can all agree that Yosuke is the worst character ever in the whole SMT series. Odd way to spell Aigis.
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Jan 28, 2013 04:26
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ImpAtom posted:Not even in the top five. Alteisen posted:Odd way to spell Aigis. He has no redeeming qualities, he is just an rear end in a top hat, treats everyone like poo poo and the worst part is that the game wants you to agree with him in everything he says. His attitude towards Kanji and the girls is just horrible. He is a horrible person and the game would be better without him. VVV But at least they had some reason behind their poo poo (Yuzu more so than Yukari) Veks fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Jan 28, 2013 |
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Jan 28, 2013 04:29
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Veks posted:I think we can all agree that Yosuke is the worst character ever in the whole SMT series. Not even close. Yosuke can be dumb, but wasn't nearly as bad, as say, Yuzu in Devil Survivor, or Yukari during the Answer. Cause holy poo poo do they complain.
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Jan 28, 2013 04:31
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Veks posted:I think we can all agree that Yosuke is the worst character ever in the whole SMT series. I'll give you as much as 'He's one of the worst party members in P4', but I can think of way worse characters across what what little I've played of SMT games. Yosuke annoyed me in the early game because he's basically the moral center and the mouthpiece in the stead of the MC, but I think the writers leaned a little too heavy in the 'horny teenager' direction with him and it makes the emotional growth of the character over the duration of the game seem insincere.
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Jan 28, 2013 04:33
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Veks posted:I think we can all agree that Yosuke is the worst character ever in the whole SMT series. You must be joking. Metis.
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Jan 28, 2013 04:41
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kirbysuperstar posted:You must be joking. Metis. Yeah, this is no contest, Metis is easily the nadir of PCs.
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Jan 28, 2013 04:46
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I love Yukari in the answer personally.
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Jan 28, 2013 04:49
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Veks posted:He has no redeeming qualities, he is just an rear end in a top hat, treats everyone like poo poo and the worst part is that the game wants you to agree with him in everything he says. His attitude towards Kanji and the girls is just horrible. He is a horrible person and the game would be better without him. A teenage boy acting like a teenage boy?  Seriously do you people forget that he's like 16? 16 year olds can be pretty loving stupid. EDIT: When exactly does he treat the girls horribly? Ibram Gaunt fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Jan 28, 2013 |
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Jan 28, 2013 04:50
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Veks posted:He has no redeeming qualities, he is just an rear end in a top hat, treats everyone like poo poo and the worst part is that the game wants you to agree with him in everything he says. His attitude towards Kanji and the girls is just horrible. He is a horrible person and the game would be better without him. He says really lovely things but ultimately he's accepting. He behaves like almost every single other teenager I knew in high school. Teenagers are jerks who say jerk things just to be jerks, whether they believe it or not. Yosuke kind of embodied that. You can tell he'd grow out of it in short order. Although maybe that part should have been more closely examined within the game. That's a problem with all the characters in P4, though. I'll agree with whoever said that they're too static.
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Jan 28, 2013 04:51
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What was that guy's name, Keita from Devil survivor 2? He's pretty bad, so was Ronaldo.
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Jan 28, 2013 04:52
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Veks posted:He has no redeeming qualities, he is just an rear end in a top hat, treats everyone like poo poo and the worst part is that the game wants you to agree with him in everything he says.
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Jan 28, 2013 04:52
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We've already established that Ken is The Worst. I think my bigger disappointment with Yosuke is more with the MC, honestly, for not rebuking him more often. Luckily the universe seems to hate Yosuke enough to keep him in his place. I'll admit I find his infatuation with the MC to be a little endearing, though. And yeah, goodness I knew enough Yosukes in High School, and there is that feeling/hope that he's growing out of it (like most the ones I knew too). Nate RFB fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Jan 28, 2013 |
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Jan 28, 2013 04:54
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The rear end in a top hat "I'm so tough" dude from Devil Survivor 1 and 2. Technically different characters but they're really the same loving guy.Veks posted:He has no redeeming qualities, he is just an rear end in a top hat, treats everyone like poo poo and the worst part is that the game wants you to agree with him in everything he says. His attitude towards Kanji and the girls is just horrible. He is a horrible person and the game would be better without him. The game doesn't want you to agree with him at all. It frequently goes out of its way to humiliate him and show him being an rear end in a top hat. You literally meet him dumped in a trashcan and then he gets kicked in the balls.
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Jan 28, 2013 04:54
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Syrg Sapphire posted:Yeah, this is no contest, Metis is easily the nadir of PCs. How can Metis be the worst character when she's hardly a character at all?
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Jan 28, 2013 04:58
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Tae posted:What was that guy's name, Keita from Devil survivor 2? He's pretty bad, so was Ronaldo. I liked Ronaldo.  Keita was irredeemably awful, though. Especially when the only way to really learn what his whole deal is, is to let a much better character die. Really, Keita and Fumi are the only DS2 characters I didn't like that much. Not from a mechanical perspective (because Fumi's really, really good as a battle unit), but as actual characters I couldn't stand either of them. At least once you're done with his stuff early on, you never really have to put up with Keita again if you don't want to.
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Jan 28, 2013 05:05
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I liked Fumi, the one I couldn't stand was Airi (and Keita, ofc).
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Jan 28, 2013 05:10
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Kaboom Dragoon posted:I also thought the endgame of P4 was seriously lacking as well, but P3 was probably the finest ending I've seen in any game, so take that how you will. Does P4G count? It seemed like the ending that they wanted to give P4. You get to see that your ties with the other characters went beyond riding out of town and ditching them forever. Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:I think people are kind of misunderstanding what I'm saying here. I liked P4's battle system quite a bit. I liked it more than P3's. P3's was pretty flawed, all said. But I felt like the idea behind it was really solid and they should have built on that instead of making that aspect worse and just throwing in direct control. If the idea behind it was that your slinks with the team should have in-combat effects, then they did evolve that. I think the way they implemented slink growth into combat (taking a hit for you, healing status, etc) was a better choice. It was still random but the effect was an extra thing happening instead being screwed over. Pretty much any imperfection in the AI would just take us back to P3's setup and I'm guessing Atlus realized this.
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Jan 28, 2013 05:10
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Has any JRPG implemented a party AI that was done well? I know the original release of DQIV had something like that.
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Jan 28, 2013 05:13
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