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I think the whole Luc/Slayer thing, like Fain, is another causality of the series pacing changing at some point. He harasses Perrin in the Two Rivers and then largely vanishes from the series for quite a while. If found the character/plot line kinda dull, and it seemed to exist almost entirely to give Perrin something to do.
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Jan 25, 2013 16:09
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Seems like it could have been written in a more interesting way if there was more time. There could be some interesting backstory and Luc seems to get the shaft in terms of writing. The prologue is at odds with the rest of the book IMO
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Jan 25, 2013 16:15
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Democratic Pirate posted:You could do a mix of Dynasty Warriors and Star Wars: Battlefield - WoT Edition. You start out as a common soldier and slowly get more powerful. If you do badass things in battle you switch to the perspective of a main character who may or may not be a channeler (Mat/Lan/Perrin/etc.) One Power use would just be different button combos to scale the damage done. A Dynasty Warriors version of WoT is a perfect fit. Play as Mat forming the Band of the Red Hand against the Aiel and just work from there. I mean he already has a badass spear sword which means they don't even need to do work on his weapon.
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Jan 25, 2013 16:21
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api call girl posted:5. Rand's 3rd question WAS about how to kill the Dark One, so you needn't think this was something Brandon just made up for TGS<->AMOL. Where was this touched on in either book (12 or 14)? I missed that completely. To my knowledge Rand's questions were: 1. How to cleanse Sadin 2. How to survive the Last Battle 3. ?? Maybe "How to kill the Dark One" is coupled in with #2, but that seems a little broad. This page (http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/4_prophecy/4.3_misc-proph.html) seems to think his 3rd question was "Should I go home and protect the Two Rivers?". Ross fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Jan 25, 2013 |
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Jan 25, 2013 16:46
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As for the battlefest nature of this book, I think that RJ would have written it quite differently. He was pretty good at the aspect of having really huge battles, that felt huge, yet took place on a more... localized/personal scale? Just enough glimpses of the big pictures to create the sense of scale before diving in to that claustrophobic "what the gently caress is going-OH poo poo" level. Sanderson isn't the best pick for creating that kind of psychological tension, even if he does general action sequences well enough. Focusing so much on on troop movements feels like the wrong choice, because the outcome of the ground battle never felt like it was gonna turn out as a loss for the light after the first half or so. Demandred was way too passive after his intitial introduction for the tension to be kept after the Great Captain plot was thwarted, laser beams or no. I don't think the book would have suffered for not enough Total War description of the battle, if BS had done it on a more personal level, but the book felt weaker for having a lot of character moments either ignored or only got the briefest of mentions inbetween gluts of TROLLOC, HEAVE HO.
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Jan 25, 2013 17:15
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AlternateAccount posted:The only real revelation he had was learning how to enter and leave tar at will, which wasn't that important. It really was a pretty boring plotline. No, his real revelation in AMoL was letting himself off the leash, so to speak. Not any specific level-up new ability on his action bars.
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Jan 25, 2013 18:27
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api call girl posted:No, his real revelation in AMoL was letting himself off the leash, so to speak. Not any specific level-up new ability on his action bars. Yeah, this. You can analyze a lot of aspects of the WoT as a fantasy-novel treatment of PTSD and the psychology of warfare -- what it does to and what it requires of those who wage war. There's a strong argument that it's as much a response to the Vietnam War as the Lord of the Rings was to World War One. Perrin's arc is in many ways about coming to terms with his inner brute. War requires absolutely horrible violence -- Perrin's physically capable of that but emotionally abhors it, even while intellectually recognizing the necessity. Resolving that conflict is what his story is about. I think that final transition was one that fell slightly flat because, well, Sanderson's never killed people, and Jordan had. It's the same reason Jordan's combat scenes are more horrifying while Sanderson's are more cinematic. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Jan 25, 2013 |
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Jan 25, 2013 18:36
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Perin would be a much more interesting character without Faile in the story at all in my opinion. Spending three or four books going on about "oh god nothing matters but Faile" really made me dislike the character.
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Jan 25, 2013 18:56
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Ross posted:Perin would be a much more interesting character without Faile in the story at all in my opinion. Spending three or four books going on about "oh god nothing matters but Faile" really made me dislike the character. He did that while building a coalition army that utterly crushed an enemy channeller/combat force that counted 400 Wise Ones, and also ending the Masema character, stabilizing much of the Arad Doman/Ghealdan/etc. area, fixing Sammael's last "gently caress you" action to Rand, and expanding his future Saldaean/Manetheren alliance. More poo poo got done on his end than pretty much anything but the Cleansing in that same 3-4 books. All while his POVs were insufferable pining. That's the interesting part. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Jan 25, 2013 |
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Jan 25, 2013 19:18
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:
Yeah, and this was pretty much resolved over and over and over 1000 times. You're gonna hafta cave some heads in, accept it.
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Jan 25, 2013 20:26
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AlternateAccount posted:Yeah, and this was pretty much resolved over and over and over 1000 times. You're gonna hafta cave some heads in, accept it. I agree, it seemed like there were three or four points in the story that were all like "Perrin has finally come to terms with what he must do/be" without any real change in his behavior until the end of Book 13 or so where I finally stopped being like "ah jeez another Perrin POV" most of the time. Concerning POVs, it seemed like Sanderson made much more frequent and extensive use of switching the POV character within a chapter. I really noticed it in AMOL.
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Jan 25, 2013 20:36
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AlternateAccount posted:Yeah, and this was pretty much resolved over and over and over 1000 times. You're gonna hafta cave some heads in, accept it. It's pretty obvious that he never really did. Everything he's done up to that point is accept different sets of rules and strictures upon himself, some from within some without. Some are resolved upon taking the new rules, some last until AMoL. 1) Gentle giant, must avoid hurting those around me. [self-inflicted] 2) Throw away the axe if I begin to like using it. [Elyas, his experience with the ravens] 3) Immerse myself in my blacksmith metaphor persona. [self-inflicted] 4) Must avoid going wolf. [self-inflicted] 5) Must throw away the axe. [self-inflicted] 6) Must learn wolfdream, but hold myself back. [self-inflicted] 7) Must hold myself back in wolfdream, not enter in flesh, etc. [Hopper] ... *) No holdback, no gentle giant, all-out ferocity. The axe and the hammer is who he is. The interaction between these rules he's had placed on himself, the fact that he's the one who suffers the most losses among the main characters, and what he eventually does at the end makes him pretty much the most interesting character in the series. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Jan 25, 2013 |
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Jan 25, 2013 20:54
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It'd probably be more interesting overall if it wasn't dragged out over 14 books, but that's less a plot problem and more a pacing problem
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Jan 25, 2013 21:34
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Fintilgin posted:I think the whole Luc/Slayer thing, like Fain, is another causality of the series pacing changing at some point. He harasses Perrin in the Two Rivers and then largely vanishes from the series for quite a while. If found the character/plot line kinda dull, and it seemed to exist almost entirely to give Perrin something to do. It wasn't til I just started re-reading The Great Hunt that I realized Luc was Rand and Galad's uncle and Isam was Lan's cousin. Did I overlook that being explicitly laid out later on, or did I just notice it this time because I had happened to look at a family tree on the WoT wiki recently?
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Jan 25, 2013 21:53
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rafikki posted:It wasn't til I just started re-reading The Great Hunt that I realized Luc was Rand and Galad's uncle and Isam was Lan's cousin. Did I overlook that being explicitly laid out later on, or did I just notice it this time because I had happened to look at a family tree on the WoT wiki recently? There are references from I think Elayne or Egwene (Nynaeve?) in the Fires of Heaven, when she sees Slayer in T'A'R. It doesn't explicitly note the connection. Whoever it is does comment that the character looks enough like Rand to be a cousin/uncle. I believe a similar thing happens with the Isam part of Slayer in another book.
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Jan 25, 2013 21:59
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api call girl posted:He did that while building a coalition army that utterly crushed an enemy channeller/combat force that counted 400 Wise Ones, and also ending the Masema character, stabilizing much of the Arad Doman/Ghealdan/etc. area, fixing Sammael's last "gently caress you" action to Rand, and expanding his future Saldaean/Manetheren alliance. More poo poo got done on his end than pretty much anything but the Cleansing in that same 3-4 books. All while his POVs were insufferable pining. Interesting sure, but the way it was presented felt like all of that stuff was just incidental to Perrin's larger goal of moping around and making his pages drag on. Except for the excuse of his being ta'veren, all that stuff seemed to happen in spite of him, rather than because of him. Sure it contributed to his character growth, but for half of his arc I felt like his personal issues were stuff that could have been solved by something as simple as a getting good and drunk for a couple days with some bros, or getting laid without first having to fight with his wife.
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Jan 26, 2013 00:19
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Lonely Swedish posted:for half of his arc I felt like his personal issues were stuff that could have been solved by something as simple as a getting good and drunk for a couple days with some bros, or getting laid without first having to fight with his wife. Given what we know of the two, getting laid is just about the only thing he gets to do with Faile without having to have a fight first.
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Jan 26, 2013 05:33
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His whole axe-phobia thing was pretty weird, because he obviously have no problem crushing a dude's face in with the Smith's hammer (and later Mjolnir). It would make more sense if he went Way of the Leaf for a while, instead of just switching killing implements (sure there's something there about what the two weapons represent in his mind but... eh).
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Jan 26, 2013 11:23
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Pimpmust posted:It would make more sense if he went Way of the Leaf for a while Except way back in EotW, Perrin's first exposure to the Way of the Leaf was to blink and say "That's fuckin' dumb."
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Jan 26, 2013 11:42
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basx posted:Except way back in EotW, Perrin's first exposure to the Way of the Leaf was to blink and say "That's fuckin' dumb." Didn't say it would be smart, but the way he goes on about that loving axe... pointless whining is par the course for the character though.
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Jan 26, 2013 13:37
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Pimpmust posted:Didn't say it would be smart, but the way he goes on about that loving axe... pointless whining is par the course for the character though. I think it was more about trying to decide if he was just going to be a killer - the axe, or a builder and killer - the hammer. To him the axe has only one purpose, to destroy and he didn't want to become someone that only kills. To the axe discussion, don't forget that Perrin has one of the best badass moments in the series whe he finally figures out how to make an Aiel talk. He literally cuts off a Aiel Warriors arm with the axe, has an Aes Sedai heal the cut, and then threatens to cut off the rest of his limb and make him a honorless beggars unless he tells hi where Faile is located,. It's also significant that such a moment doesn't result in anything useful and right afterward he throws the axe away for good. It was kind of a bottoming out moment for him. Perrin Aybata - the Jack Bauer of WoT. Hobbes24 fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Jan 26, 2013 |
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Jan 26, 2013 17:44
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So wait, Rand is Q?
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Jan 27, 2013 01:03
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Sooo...it's all going to happen again, isn't it? In some future Age, someone's going to make another Bore and the party will start again? Or did Rand actually do something more final to the Dark One?
Ihsasum fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 01:23
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Ihsasum posted:Sooo...it's all going to happen again, isn't it? In some future Age, someone's going to make another Bore and the party will start again? Or did Rand actually do something more final to the Dark One? Nope, he realized that wasn't the solution. It'll happen again. The next time you reread it. 
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Jan 27, 2013 01:38
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That might be a bit spoilery... Anyway, I loved the book and am now thinking of a reread of the series. I have done periodic rereads over the years as the books ever so slowly were released so I have read the first few more times than any of the others. Because I've read those more, I'm not sure I want to start from the very beginning. What would be a good, roughly-halfway mark to start a reread from?
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Jan 27, 2013 04:45
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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Chapter 51 of book 6. You'll basically start with the Dumai's Wells mini-arc.
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Jan 27, 2013 06:17
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A reread just isn't right without The Shadow Rising.
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Jan 27, 2013 12:44
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I'm feeling tempted to get the first 6-7 books in English at least. I switched over at Knife of Dreams, could be interesting to compare the translation to the original (I'd only need to read 12 & 6 books  ).e: I found myself going back and rereading Sandersons blog entries from his reread of the WoT series. Some pretty good words there, and I think he really tried to apply those tidbits to his own WoT-work (perhaps not always successfully, but the attempt shows!) "This is one of the things I've always liked about Mr. Jordan's writing—in fact, it may have been one of his greatest talents. His ability to craft a very intense, well-written, and engaging third-person-limited viewpoint. If there's one thing I could pick to learn from his writing, it would be how to do such a good third limited." "I've said before that I think Mr. Jordan's greatest strength as a writer was his ability to do viewpoint with such power. His second-greatest strength was probably his ability to plot on the large scale, planning for things that weren't going to happen for several books, leaving foreshadowing for novels that wouldn't be written for years. As part of that, he knew what happened in the past with his characters to a far greater extent than I think most writers do." Some good words on Character Conflict (him listing off the Conflict points just for Rand during the first and a half books is pretty great), Pacing/Multi-book structure and such as well. And this part stood out especially to me: [/i]"So, I went into this one a little bit confused, trying to remember what exactly happened in Book Three. About a hundred pages into it, I suddenly remembered. This is the one where Rand disappears. /.../ All admit to a slight longing, however. Not for more Rand viewpoints specifically, but a longing to know him better. The man whom we read about at the beginning of this book has changed a lot since the end of the second book. That progress, that change, is trapped between books, lost to us. A friend recently explained to me that Mr. Jordan looked at Rand's changes during this book as a metaphor for the way he himself changed during his years in Vietnam. That same friend suggested that maybe showing those changes explicitly might have been to close to home for Mr. Jordan. I'd never heard that before, but it makes a whole lot of sense."[/i] I just note that there's really little in there about the magic system or other fantasy aspects (not that those were bad), good writing got a quality all of its own (outside genre stuff) and personally is why I keep coming back to WoT over other Fantasy works. Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 13:22
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Grundulum posted:Chapter 51 of book 6. You'll basically start with the Dumai's Wells mini-arc. I'm not a megafan of this series and basically forgot who all the characters were when AMOL came out but I don't think I can forget Dumai's Wells. That was such an awesome scene.
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Jan 27, 2013 20:39
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pogothemonkey0 posted:I'm not a megafan of this series and basically forgot who all the characters were when AMOL came out but I don't think I can forget Dumai's Wells. That was such an awesome scene. This was great on so many levels. For books and books you've been hearing about how fearless and awesome the Aiel are, and then the Shaido take one look at the Gore-nado that the Asha'man are brewing up and say "gently caress this" and run like hell.
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Jan 28, 2013 03:48
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werdnam posted:I disagree. It had no dramatic intensity, because I was quite sure Slayer had to be defeated for Rand to succeed, and since Perrin was the only candidate with the ability to go toe-to-toe in t'a'r, it was only a matter of time before he "powered up" enough to win. The battle was just an endless sequence of shifts. When Perrin was severely injured, I thought it might be leading to a situation where Perrin realized he had to defeat Slayer in some other way than straight one-on-one battle, but, no -- he just had to sleep, power up some more, and try again. I watched a ton of dragonball z recently and you are objectively wrong. Powering up is the best part of a fight. EDIT: Wait, way back when, Sanderson wrote something about having just written a chapter that contained like 80 POVs reacting to something. Anyone know what that was? I thought it would be 'the end' and all the reaction shots but I only remember like five... Comrade Blyatlov fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Jan 28, 2013 |
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Jan 28, 2013 07:04
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Two Finger posted:I watched a ton of dragonball z recently and you are objectively wrong. Powering up is the best part of a fight. Probably the Last Battle Chapter, because it was like... 200 pages?
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Jan 28, 2013 07:19
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I don't remember the "reacting to" part but he did post about the ~ 80 POVs in one chapter for sure.
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Jan 28, 2013 13:57
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Can someone explain to me how the prophecy where Alivia helped Rand to live/die came to fruition? Maybe I read over the very ending too fast, but I don't recall Alivia ever really showing up. I vaguely remember her standing around with everyone else, but I can't recall her doing anything to help Rand switch bodies with Moridin at the end.
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Jan 30, 2013 03:33
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syphon posted:Can someone explain to me how the prophecy where Alivia helped Rand to live/die came to fruition? I think it had to do with the epilogue where she left him all the stuff for his "new life" as the wanderer
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Jan 30, 2013 03:43
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enigma105 posted:I think it had to do with the epilogue where she left him all the stuff for his "new life" as the wanderer Yeah it was one of the viewings RJ left notes on that were meant to mean barely anything even though it was hyped up.
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Jan 30, 2013 03:49
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Bluedust posted:Yeah it was one of the viewings RJ left notes on that were meant to mean barely anything even though it was hyped up. Those seem to me to be one of the spots where Sanderson really droped the ball. Some are cute, but some just seem really tacked on, like he was ticking off things on a list, not really trying to make everything flow. It's a shame really, one of the problems of another one trying to finish another's work. The ideas that already exist just don't flow together without the original inspiration.
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Jan 30, 2013 06:09
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Hobbes24 posted:Those seem to me to be one of the spots where Sanderson really droped the ball. Some are cute, but some just seem really tacked on, like he was ticking off things on a list, not really trying to make everything flow. It's a shame really, one of the problems of another one trying to finish another's work. The ideas that already exist just don't flow together without the original inspiration. I think he did an admirable job, all things considered. I would've really liked to see another book, as the last one felt really rushed.
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Jan 30, 2013 06:24
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Hobbes24 posted:Those seem to me to be one of the spots where Sanderson really droped the ball. Some are cute, but some just seem really tacked on, like he was ticking off things on a list, not really trying to make everything flow. It's a shame really, one of the problems of another one trying to finish another's work. The ideas that already exist just don't flow together without the original inspiration. You know that bit with the Alivia reveal in the epilogue is basically word for word what RJ wrote. According to Brandon everything in the epilogue except for Loial and Perrin's scenes are directly from RJ. So if you think it's tacked on, that is how RJ intended it to be. It's like the Sheriam viewing. Min's viewing seems to indicate that Sheriam has some kind of glory or importance in her future but it just turns out to be a glimpse at her execution. Sure Brandon probably wrote that scene but based on the way the imagery of the scene fit the viewing I would think that RJ left a detailed note on how that was supposed to play out. Based on that and a few other examples it's clear to me that RJ liked to mess with the reader a bit and subvert their expectations on the importance of prophecies/viewings.
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Jan 30, 2013 12:02
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It would probably feel less rushed or shoe horned in if there wasn't so much crap already being squeezed into the book. Instead of feeling like a "prophecies aren't always big and important!" Moment it feels a little like it was just another case of tying up loose ends
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Jan 30, 2013 14:01
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