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MrBims posted:Why was Jake so blatantly set up to have brain damage if it was just going to probably go away with godtiering? Was he really set up to have brain damage? I thought it was just that he was on the autism spectrum.
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Feb 26, 2013 22:01
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team overhead smash posted:Isn't this just a random fan theory that is also explained by jake is a derp/realised what a derp he was when a friend exploded at him and thus went through some character development? While Jake was talking to Caliborn, Jake did imply he thought he might be brain damaged too. So far, nothing's really come of it and I kinda doubt that was anything other than him trying to rationalize the fact that he's just not particularly attentive and is frequently completely oblivious to what's going on around him.
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Feb 26, 2013 22:01
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MrBims posted:No one has been a louder supporter of the archival experience here than me, but these past two months have really disappointed me in a way that hasn't happened before. It feels like a lot of things are happening only to backtrack where Hussie may have written himself into a corner. Why did anything with Roxy on Derse happen if it didn't change anything because she was just going to get Trickstered and end up on the bed anyway? quote:Why was Jake so blatantly set up to have brain damage if it was just going to probably go away with godtiering? quote:Why did Hussie ever try to make dramatic tension of whether him being godtiered would even work with his dreamself's early death? quote:Why did we have that thing with HIC's book to Roxy? quote:Why did we end up having two characters mindcontrolled by a badguy yet a-loving-gain when we just then got done with the Trickster stuff? It may be consistent with prior events for it to potentially happen, but how is it tense or dramatic for this card to be played for probably the tenth time? That all being said, I agree that attempting to wrap all of this up too quickly will have disastrous results. Realistically, I don't see this thing ending in a satisfactory manner until very late this year, if not next year. There are far too many loose ends at this point, including a lot of as-yet-unresolved issues from much earlier in the story (eg. the function, purpose, and execution of the denizens, the final fate of the Universal Tadpole last seen toppling into an active volcano, etc.). Homestuck has, for a considerable amount of time now, been an exercise in a story's reach exceeding its grasp. It's unlikely that Hussie doesn't realize this, the question is if he's capable of reining it all in in a way that doesn't grossly betray even the most basic expectations. The weakest link in Hussie's writing has always been his ability to pace a story well (how many months did we spend making GBS threads around John's house with queue/stack sylladices?), so I expect we've still got a long way before this thing's ending.
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Feb 26, 2013 22:29
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King of Solomon posted:While Jake was talking to Caliborn, Jake did imply he thought he might be brain damaged too. So far, nothing's really come of it and I kinda doubt that was anything other than him trying to rationalize the fact that he's just not particularly attentive and is frequently completely oblivious to what's going on around him. Rationalize, or explain?
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Feb 26, 2013 22:32
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Tavros really seems to have regressed, since once upon a time when he heard Vriska was doing something evil (even if it was "necessary") he confronted her about it even though he knew trying to fight her was hopeless. Now here she is doing something probably quite a lot worse and his reaction is to mutter passive-aggressive jabs about it. There's probably plenty of Tavroses in Vriska's "army" already, and with her current attitude it wouldn't be surprising for her to add this Tavros to them if he complained. There's a thought - as things currently stand, Vriska has absolute power in the group on her boat since she's deciding which of her friends to mind-control to their deaths or not. If she didn't like this Tavros she could throw him away and fish out a beta-timeline Tavros she likes better. At this point, those ghosts that remain in paradox space probably speak in hushed, horrified whispers about Vriska as much as they do about Lord English, since the arrival of either basically means their death. Edit: I also want to point to a likely false equivalency where people are saying vriska has to sacrifice these ghosts or else they'll all die - do you remember when Terezi suddenly became consumed with doubt because she'd only seen paths where she kills Vriska or lets her go? What about Rose pointing out to Dave that him using predestination to excuse his behaviour isn't sufficient? The story has touched on the idea that characters see the solutions they want to see, and there might have been another way to defeat Lord English that doesn't require this mass sacrifice, but Vriska seized on it because killing people to solve problems is her modus operandi. Dolash fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Feb 26, 2013 |
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Feb 26, 2013 22:37
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Vriska is Lord English. In amidst Jack being Lord English, Caliborn being Lord English, and Doc Scratch being Lord English. Peak Vriskachat right here folks (not a dig at you, Dolash. I'm lovin' it ba da ba ba bah)
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Feb 26, 2013 22:40
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Dolash posted:There's a thought - as things currently stand, Vriska has absolute power in the group on her boat since she's deciding which of her friends to mind-control to their deaths or not. If she didn't like this Tavros she could throw him away and fish out a beta-timeline Tavros she likes better.
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Feb 26, 2013 22:46
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LOCUST FART HELL posted:You're in a desert, walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down and you see a tortoise. It's crawling towards you. You reach down, you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over but it can't, not without your help, but you're not helping. Instead you shoot it with a machine gun. It's too bad she'll get double-killed! But then again, who doesn't?
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Feb 26, 2013 22:47
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Well considering the majority of the Trolls are cover-page pictures for the Deliberately Failed Character Development magazine Spring Collection, I'm not too surprised by this. Not only did they miss the point of the game and learn nothing from their experience playing, now the majority of them are dead so they can't develop any more and, in Tavros' and Vriska's case, regress. Out of the ones who are alive, Karkat has developed significantly, we've not heard much from Kanaya, Aradia and Sollux are just kind of there at the moment, and Gamzee is actively aiding Caliborn. I guess what I'm saying is that "Trolls be whack, yo."
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Feb 26, 2013 22:51
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TVs Ian posted:I don't know that she would. Even when Sollux is arguing that the betas are "real" he basically admits the current crew is originals and they're copies. Vriska already killed the original Tavros once, and had at least some regrets about it. I think she sees the betas as totally expendable duplicates, but probably wouldn't send the real things to their double-death. (Actually lets not get into an existential argument, those never go well).
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Feb 26, 2013 22:58
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Sounds like you're taking a position against the existence of existential arguments. That's like double existential.
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Feb 26, 2013 23:02
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Jewel Repetition posted:Was he really set up to have brain damage? I thought it was just that he was on the autism spectrum. Was he really on the autism spectrum? I thought he was just raised alone on an island with no human contact for the majority of his life.
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Feb 26, 2013 23:19
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The beta selves aren't less-real copies, that is patently silly after a moment's examination. The only difference between them is that one chose left and the other chose right, then whatever (usually limited) development they may have had between that fateful decision and the time of their inevitable demise. In many cases it's not even that: the Beta Vriska who fought Jack Noir, for instance, was that way because of the decision of Beta Terezi, and was qualitatively no different from regular Vriska. Terezi's decision in that timeline also created a soon-to-be-dead Beta Gamzee, Beta Karkat, Beta Kanaya, etc, much as in Davesprite's timeline there was a Beta Jade who got killed by meteors but otherwise did nothing different from Alpha Jade. For every time the A2 session hosed up and Aradia had to go back and abandon the branch, there are twelve beta trolls, many of whom did exactly the same things and were exactly the same people they would have done and been otherwise. Android Blues fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Feb 26, 2013 |
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Feb 26, 2013 23:20
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Mystic Mongol posted:Was he really on the autism spectrum? I thought he was just raised alone on an island with no human contact for the majority of his life. ... but autism isn't the result of isolation.
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Feb 26, 2013 23:25
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TVs Ian posted:I don't know that she would. Even when Sollux is arguing that the betas are "real" he basically admits the current crew is originals and they're copies. Vriska already killed the original Tavros once, and had at least some regrets about it. I think she sees the betas as totally expendable duplicates, but probably wouldn't send the real things to their double-death. I might agree if not for how she treated beta-John. MrBims has it right that when she wanted beta-selves to be real, they were, and now that she needs them not to be they aren't. The existence of Davesprite as a character and his whole arc, up to and including the scene we just had of him talking to a sleeping John, has emphasized that beta-selves are fully-realized people and at best Vriska's lying to herself. At worst she doesn't care at all and just about every Vriska scene that suggested she might be growing has gone to waste. I'd enjoy it if for some reason Vriska decided to add the alpha version of some character into her army of souls when they start to run low (why not Nepeta or Feferi, they're freshly returned from the land of the living) and it sparked off a terse argument about what criteria they're using for mind-controlling people into oblivion.
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Feb 26, 2013 23:38
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Android Blues posted:The beta selves aren't less-real copies, that is patently silly after a moment's examination. The only difference between them is that one chose left and the other chose right, then whatever (usually limited) development they may have had between that fateful decision and the time of their inevitable demise. In many cases it's not even that: the Beta Vriska who fought Jack Noir, for instance, was that way because of the decision of Beta Terezi, and was qualitatively no different from regular Vriska. They're not less real, but aren't they explicitly stated as less important? I remember there being a whole thing about how every beta timeline is supposed to, in some way, feed back into the prime timeline and propagate it. This sort of goes back to the whole cruelty-of-causality thing-- the grand machinations of fate are essentially throwing people out there whose ultimate point in existing is to serve as fodder at worst, or a means to an end at best, in order to continue to keep the alpha timeline intact. The metaphysical underpinnings of the entire universe, not to mention Skaia itself, seems to operate on a very rigid utilitarian system. Kant would hate Homestuck.
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Feb 26, 2013 23:43
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Who cares about whether or not Jake has/had mental problems? People speculating about fictional characters having mental illnesses, in my experience, never pans out. What does giving Jake a mental disorder explain about him anyway? He's been raised by his grandma and then himself on an island full of hostile monsters with nothing but his online friends and movies as examples of human interaction, no wonder he's socially stunted.
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Feb 26, 2013 23:45
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People hate Jake English so much they're trying to explain his existence as a way to cope with it.
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Feb 26, 2013 23:47
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Cabbit posted:They're not less real, but aren't they explicitly stated as less important? I remember there being a whole thing about how every beta timeline is supposed to, in some way, feed back into the prime timeline and propagate it. Well, that doesn't really have any implication for their agency/selfhood, is the thing. All it means is that the metaverse (whatever THAT is) cares about their contribution less, and given causality and such are guided and controlled by Lord English, that's not exactly a statement on the merit of their existence so much as it's a statement on the expedience of their existence to an evil demon getting what he wants. Alpha Eridan is more important in that metric than the Eridan who got in touch with his feelings and rebuilt his friendship with Feferi peacefully, but I know which one I'd consider more deserving of a short jump into a big rainbow, you know?
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Feb 26, 2013 23:53
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What if something happened between Beta John and Vriska that halted Vriska's slide towards good-aligned, and made her start seeing all Betas as expendable and not real? John is the TRUE villain of homestucks.
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Feb 26, 2013 23:57
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What has John even done that was all that Heroic, anyways, besides put out a few fires on LOWAS? 
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Feb 27, 2013 00:02
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Dolash posted:At worst she doesn't care at all and just about every Vriska scene that suggested she might be growing has gone to waste. I agree with most of the rest of what you're saying, but to me it's pretty obvious that Vriska never did change or was meant to change. Like I said before, she never actually did anything different along her entire time she was alive; besides talking to John about how she wasn't actually a bad person, her entire, well, everything was being a cruel, self-absorbed person. Heck, even that actually fits into it, really, since she was justifying her behavior before their session ended and she met the kids. Her entire thing is that she acts the way she does, no matter what the situation. Even when Terezi told her that her actions would kill all her friends, she was going to do it anyway. Not once has she made a decision for the sake of someone else. Her character development has been false, and from my perspective it looks like the point. She's the logical extreme of those characters who do evil things but are totally good, really, even though they never actually stop doing those things so you only have their word (and usually the author's because they love this character) that they're not basically a villain on the protagonist's side/as the protagonist, and Hussie's just playing it to such an extreme while trying to simultaneously keep everyone taking her seriously, either in hating her for being evil or defending her and taking her bullshit justifications seriously. Or, in simpler terms, I think Vriska's a huge joke Hussie's playing on the fanbase, and everyone here (myself included at one point) fell for it. This may not be accurate, but it vastly increases my enjoyment of watching all this.
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Feb 27, 2013 00:08
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Android Blues posted:Well, that doesn't really have any implication for their agency/selfhood, is the thing. All it means is that the metaverse (whatever THAT is) cares about their contribution less, and given causality and such are guided and controlled by Lord English, that's not exactly a statement on the merit of their existence so much as it's a statement on the expedience of their existence to an evil demon getting what he wants. Alpha Eridan is more important in that metric than the Eridan who got in touch with his feelings and rebuilt his friendship with Feferi peacefully, but I know which one I'd consider more deserving of a short jump into a big rainbow, you know? Since a Hope hero has supposedly been prophesied to be the one who destroys Lord English, I'm betting it's no coincidence that all the Hope heroes in the timeline that is slave to Lord English are various degrees of failure.
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Feb 27, 2013 00:15
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Roland Jones posted:Or, in simpler terms, I think Vriska's a huge joke Hussie's playing on the fanbase, and everyone here (myself included at one point) fell for it. This may not be accurate, but it vastly increases my enjoyment of watching all this. trolling us
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Feb 27, 2013 00:27
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Android Blues posted:Well, that doesn't really have any implication for their agency/selfhood, is the thing. All it means is that the metaverse (whatever THAT is) cares about their contribution less, and given causality and such are guided and controlled by Lord English, that's not exactly a statement on the merit of their existence so much as it's a statement on the expedience of their existence to an evil demon getting what he wants. Alpha Eridan is more important in that metric than the Eridan who got in touch with his feelings and rebuilt his friendship with Feferi peacefully, but I know which one I'd consider more deserving of a short jump into a big rainbow, you know? Yeah, I get that, though I'd think that if existence/whatever cares less about their contribution then it's implicitly dismissing their agency as well. An Eridan who reconciled with Feferi is probably a much better person and deserves better, but similarly there were probably a lot of really great, kind people on Earth who nevertheless got annihilated by a ton of meteors by Skaia. They didn't deserve that, either, but so it goes-- either the planet gets wiped out, or the Reckoning completely obliterates Skaia and everyone loses. Homestuck's rife with this sort of thing! It's not supposed to make you feel better, nor is it supposed to be morally agreeable if you're not on-board with utilitarianism, I think. The amoral, utilitarian nature of Skaia and SBurb seems like it's supposed to be a sticking point. Cabbit fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Feb 27, 2013 |
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Feb 27, 2013 00:31
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Roland Jones posted:Or, in simpler terms, I think Vriska's a huge joke Hussie's playing on the fanbase, and everyone here (myself included at one point) fell for it. This may not be accurate, but it vastly increases my enjoyment of watching all this. Simply put, Vriska is and always has been a psychopath. A clever and entertaining one, but a psycopath nonetheless. She never really grasped the concept of empathy because it was beyond her capacity to do so. The current situation is no surprise at all in that light. Maybe John will have some sort of epiphany and dress her down over it ("Hey! Davesprite is from a beta timeline and he's kind of a jerk but he wouldn't deserve this"), but we'll see.
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Feb 27, 2013 00:35
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Sociopath is probably more accurate than psychopath. Environmental factors are definitely a contributor, if Kindfang's any indicator.
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Feb 27, 2013 00:40
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Makaris posted:So, uh, where are all the beta Vriska's and beta Meenah's? I looked closely at the mini-strife and while there were a few beta Arenea's there wasn't either of the aforementioned characters in sight. What would they think about being sacrificed? Why didn't Meenah think of contacting more of herselves for her army, except for maybe that genetic need to kill her kin? Vriska, Meenah, and Aranea have overlooked alternate versions of themselves and their friends in favor of people who they didn't know very well and people who annoyed them. You may notice that there are no Karkats, Terezis, or Equiuses on that boat. They have rationalized this by convincing themselves that these people were universally stubborn and self absorbed. As an additional rationalization they have convinced themselves that these alternate versions are less important, or else, less real than their alpha counterparts. They're not people, they're ghosts. Disposable.
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Feb 27, 2013 00:57
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Ariong posted:Vriska, Meenah, and Aranea have overlooked alternate versions of themselves and their friends in favor of people who they didn't know very well and people who annoyed them. You may notice that there are no Karkats, Terezis, or Equiuses on that boat. They have rationalized this by convincing themselves that these people were universally stubborn and self absorbed. As an additional rationalization they have convinced themselves that these alternate versions are less important, or else, less real than their alpha counterparts. They're not people, they're ghosts. Disposable. Four is a tragedy. Four billion is a number.
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Feb 27, 2013 01:01
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Ever see that Jet Li movie 'The One'? Gotta get rid of all your alternate universe selves, only then do you get ultimate power.
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Feb 27, 2013 01:04
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Ariong posted:Vriska, Meenah, and Aranea have overlooked alternate versions of themselves and their friends in favor of people who they didn't know very well and people who annoyed them. You may notice that there are no Karkats, Terezis, or Equiuses on that boat. They have rationalized this by convincing themselves that these people were universally stubborn and self absorbed. As an additional rationalization they have convinced themselves that these alternate versions are less important, or else, less real than their alpha counterparts. They're not people, they're ghosts. Disposable. The word "rationalization" is really starting to annoy me.
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Feb 27, 2013 01:12
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Unrelated, but I made your avatar from the picture in the PYF Funny Picture threads. I noticed it kept popping up, and that's because I also see it here. Did you ask for the Guy Fieri logo because of it's also something mentioned in Homestuck?
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Feb 27, 2013 01:21
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Ariong posted:Vriska, Meenah, and Aranea have overlooked alternate versions of themselves and their friends in favor of people who they didn't know very well and people who annoyed them. You may notice that there are no Karkats, Terezis, or Equiuses on that boat. They have rationalized this by convincing themselves that these people were universally stubborn and self absorbed. As an additional rationalization they have convinced themselves that these alternate versions are less important, or else, less real than their alpha counterparts. They're not people, they're ghosts. Disposable. Actually I think a good way to show a sensible John reaction is if there was a John ghost on one of the ships, but that probably won't be happening.
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Feb 27, 2013 01:21
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So I've been reading over some of the archive, and there's something that's been kind of bothering me. How did any of the other characters figure out what the (supposed) motive is behind Lord English's actions? Did Aranea ever mention where she's getting all this information from?
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Feb 27, 2013 02:09
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No.44 posted:So I've been reading over some of the archive, and there's something that's been kind of bothering me. How did any of the other characters figure out what the (supposed) motive is behind Lord English's actions? Did Aranea ever mention where she's getting all this information from?
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Feb 27, 2013 02:18
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I've been rereading from the beginning and I've just got to the end of Act 4. Nothing will reach the levels of awesomeness [S] John: Reunite with your loving wife and daughter reached. (Although Ascend more casually and all the other EOA flashes come close.) Also, this panel is one of the best Hussie's ever done:  The mail is delivered. An obligation, satisfied. TinTower fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Feb 27, 2013 |
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Feb 27, 2013 02:19
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lotus circle posted:Probably where she gets all her information from. Being billions of years old and wandering around dream bubbles collecting information. She also knew about Doc Scratch and everything he did to Alternia in the same way. She's the equivalent of an in-comic exposition dumper because of that. She also knows Lord English's real name, according to the Meenahbound flashes. The only thing she explicitly said before that she doesn't know is Calliope's name. Vriska's the powergamer, Aranea is the gamer who geeks out obsessively over lore.
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Feb 27, 2013 02:25
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SoupyTwist posted:Vriska's the powergamer, Aranea is the gamer who geeks out obsessively over lore. Put the two together, and you get one of two things: A pair constantly on the verge of ripping each others' throats out, or a plan. A plan that works.
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Feb 27, 2013 02:43
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It's hard to believe that we haven't had a good flash with sound since Christmas. No, we don't talk about Trickster Mode.
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Feb 27, 2013 02:43
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IUG posted:Unrelated, but I made your avatar from the picture in the PYF Funny Picture threads. I noticed it kept popping up, and that's because I also see it here. No, actually! Homestuck didn't cross my mind when I got this. Thanks again, by the way.
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Feb 27, 2013 03:06
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