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Deceitful Penguin posted:I love this question to bits. We're in an English speaking forum where you have to pay Exacto! The Venezuelans I've met abroad (notice that they had enough money to travel) hated Chavez. Why? Because electronics were so expensive and because there was a huge toilet paper shortage once. Also those handful of people were lighter skinned than Chavez. Latin America is mired in petty racism. A lot of people hated Chavez because he was on the darker side.
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Mar 6, 2013 23:02
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to join and people here and in the GBS thread kept asking why none of the Venezuelans were in favour of Chavez or even tried to use this as a point against him. 
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Frijolero posted:Exacto! The Venezuelans I've met abroad (notice that they had enough money to travel) hated Chavez. Why? Because electronics were so expensive and because there was a huge toilet paper shortage once. Also those handful of people were lighter skinned than Chavez. Latin America is mired in petty racism. A lot of people hated Chavez because he was on the darker side. Yeah exactly, 6.5 million Venezuelans don't like Chavez because they can't buy video games and because they have to save on toilet paper.
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Mar 6, 2013 23:10
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M. Discordia posted:I TOLD you people he would remain in power for life, but NOBODY WANTED TO LISTEN. Holy poo poo M. You haven't posted on these forums in years and then randomly out of the woodwork here you are. That's cool.
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Mar 6, 2013 23:10
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El Hefe posted:Yeah exactly, 6.5 million Venezuelans don't like Chavez because they can't buy video games and because they have to save on toilet paper. Oh gently caress off. The Venezuelans I met were very clear that toilet paper shortages and high prices were major reasons to dislike Chavez. I'm not trying to be funny like you. We're talking about upper-middle class people who have 'suffered' because of Chavez's policies. Their parents were also upper-middle class and they indoctrinated their children with the idea that things were pleasant before Chavez. High murder rates fueled their discontent even more. Are you disagreeing with the fact that well-off Venezuelans dislike Chavez? Frijolero fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Mar 6, 2013 |
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Mar 6, 2013 23:15
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Try actually at least visiting the country before having strong opinions on the subject rather than relying on what some idiot Venezuelan told you or something you read online or in some book. And the well-off Venezuelans are the Chavistas now, did you know Tarek el-Aissami owns the biggest security company in the country? And that for the past two years he has prohibited the sell of ammo and guns to other security companies? El Hefe fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Mar 6, 2013 |
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Mar 6, 2013 23:20
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El Hefe posted:Try actually at least visiting the country before having strong opinions on the subject rather than relying on what some idiot Venezuelan told you or something you read online or in some book. Well I guess that explains the real motives for Chavezs civilian disarmament plan.
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Mar 6, 2013 23:24
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El Hefe posted:Try actually at least visiting the country before having strong opinions on the subject rather than relying on what some idiot Venezuelan told you or something you read online or in some book. The people I talked to were Venezolanos!! I'm not going to rule them out as a source of information on the matter. I'm not going to call them idiots either. They had money. Chavez's policies made it harder for them to use that money. It's a valid argument. It's also shallow as hell, which is what I was pointing out. Now please enlighten me on your visit to Venezuela. Did you see people living on the street? OH NO! I see that when I look outside. Did you see people getting murdered? OH NO! My family had to move out of Mexico because of the violence. But they are not blaming a single political leader for it.
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Mar 6, 2013 23:27
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Frijolero posted:Exacto! The Venezuelans I've met abroad (notice that they had enough money to travel) hated Chavez. Why? Because electronics were so expensive and because there was a huge toilet paper shortage once. Also those handful of people were lighter skinned than Chavez. Latin America is mired in petty racism. A lot of people hated Chavez because he was on the darker side. There have also been severe shortages of essentials like milk, sugar and Harina Pan. Whether or not that's Chavez fault is probably up for debate. http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/02/2013221105648886442.html
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Mar 6, 2013 23:29
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Frijolero posted:Now please enlighten me on your visit to Venezuela. I'm pretty sure they're from the country. quote:My family had to move out of Mexico because of the violence. But they are not blaming a single political leader for it. Mexico and arguably most places has in recent time not had a political leader who was in power for as long, or who has wielded as much power/influence as Chavez has. I mean it works both ways. Chavez gets all the credit for improving the nation(for people on that side of the argument), it's only natural if someone opposes Chavez, he'll get an equal amount of blame in a negative fashion.
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Mar 6, 2013 23:32
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Amused to Death posted:Mexico and arguably most places has in recent time not had a political leader who was in power for as long, or who has wielded as much power/influence as Chavez has. I mean it works both ways. Chavez gets all the credit for improving the nation(for people on that side of the argument), it's only natural if someone opposes Chavez, he'll get an equal amount of blame in a negative fashion. The PAN was in power for 12 years. A six year presidency is a long rear end time.
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Mar 6, 2013 23:36
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Frijolero posted:Oh gently caress off. The Venezuelans I met were very clear that toilet paper shortages and high prices were major reasons to dislike Chavez. I'm not trying to be funny like you. It looks like you're conflating "well-off" Venezuelans with the working and middle classes - certainly, the well-off expats living in West Palm Beach highrises hate Chavez and pine for a return to the Perez Jimenez era, but a lot of the middle class Venezuelans who hate Chavez also hated the Puntofijismo-era leaders that preceded him. Pre-Chavez Venezuela may have been less violent, but inflation rates were sky-high (particularly in the late 80's and mid 90's), public education was in terrible shape, and nobody cared about politics because elections were essentially rigged. Based on that, I don't think it's entirely fair to say that opponents of Chavez want a return to a pre-Chavez environment. *Disclaimer: my family and I left in 1989, well before even Chavez's attempted coup, and I'm pretty agnostic on Chavez now
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Mar 6, 2013 23:45
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Frijolero posted:The PAN was in power for 12 years. A six year presidency is a long rear end time. Chavez's near 15 years is far longer. His party also had a super majority in the assembly for a good deal of that time. He was also a very dominating and charismatic figure in that party and the country as a whole.
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Mar 6, 2013 23:45
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The PAN presidency was 12 years against 71 from PRI that's not enough time to change things, even less so with Fox as one of the worse presidents. And Calderon having to deal with all the narco schisms. Also PRI and PRD blocking loving everything they tried to do.
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Mar 6, 2013 23:49
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Fitzwilliam Lacho posted:The PAN presidency was 12 years against 71 from PRI that's not enough time to change things, even less so with Fox as one of the worse presidents. And Calderon having to deal with all the narco schisms. Also PRI and PRD blocking loving everything they tried to do. Also remember that technically PAN had two presidents, with very different styles, even if from the same party. Chavez was pretty unabashedly setting himself up for a personalist president for life type situation. I really wish there was a Mexican politics thread.  
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Mar 7, 2013 00:12
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JosefStalinator posted:Also remember that technically PAN had two presidents, with very different styles, even if from the same party. Chavez was pretty unabashedly setting himself up for a personalist president for life type situation. Me too but do politics even really matter in Mexico? They are all pretty much center right, center, and center left. Only with different varieties of populism.
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Mar 7, 2013 00:31
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JosefStalinator posted:Also remember that technically PAN had two presidents, with very different styles, even if from the same party. Chavez was pretty unabashedly setting himself up for a personalist president for life type situation. Im pretty sure we had a mexican elections thread like this one?
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Mar 7, 2013 00:44
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For some perspective, let's turn to the AP:quote:Chavez invested Venezuela's oil wealth into social programs including state-run food markets, cash benefits for poor families, free health clinics and education programs. But those gains were meager compared with the spectacular construction projects that oil riches spurred in glittering Middle Eastern cities, including the world's tallest building in Dubai and plans for branches of the Louvre and Guggenheim museums in Abu Dhabi. http://www.fair.org/blog/2013/03/06/ap-chavez-wasted-his-money-on-healthcare-when-he-could-have-built-gigantic-skyscrapers/ Why waste oil wealth on public goods when you can build gigantic phalluses? Chávez!!!!
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Mar 7, 2013 01:18
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Badger of Basra posted:For some perspective, let's turn to the AP: Yes, Venezuela should emulate those countries that rely on a huge underclass of smuggled immigrant labor to prop up their economy! Thanks AP!
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Mar 7, 2013 01:22
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baka kaba posted:The point is the fact he was a bus driver instead of going to university has nothing to do with anything. He has actual political, organisational experience so judge him on that. Sneering at someone's background over any other more relevant considerations is straight up classism Ok, his experience is that he was a part of Chavez's machine which included a shitload of corruption, neoptism, and using the government itself as a cudgel against anyone that opposed them. Yeah he sounds swell and won't continue the dysfunction. 
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Mar 7, 2013 01:33
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Evil Fluffy posted:Ok, his experience is that he was a part of Chavez's machine which included a shitload of corruption, neoptism, and using the government itself as a cudgel against anyone that opposed them. It's amazing how you can determine all that from his driving a bus.
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Mar 7, 2013 01:35
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Evil Fluffy posted:Ok, his experience is that he was a part of Chavez's machine which included a shitload of corruption, neoptism, and using the government itself as a cudgel against anyone that opposed them. And yet this still has nothing to do with driving buses
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Mar 7, 2013 01:42
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Enough with the bus thing already. Anybody know how the local councils are going? It seemed like they really did have some degree of independence in determining what projects they wanted for their community and so on, and are arguably the only novel thing Chavez did. On the other hand, this economist who was initially enthusiastic about Chavez felt pretty let down: quote:[Chávez's] story line may be compelling to many who are rightly outraged by Latin America's deep social and economic inequalities. Unfortunately, it is wrong. Neither official statistics nor independent estimates show any evidence that Chávez has reoriented state priorities to benefit the poor. Most health and human development indicators have shown no significant improvement beyond that which is normal in the midst of an oil boom. Indeed, some have deteriorated worryingly, and official estimates indicate that income inequality has increased. The "Chávez is good for the poor" hypothesis is inconsistent with the facts. ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Rodr%C3%ADguez_%28economist%29 Take that for what it's worth, if anything.
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Mar 7, 2013 01:44
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Badger of Basra posted:For some perspective, let's turn to the AP: Yeah I don't think any of the Gulf Republicans or Saudi Arabia provide any sort of good model for what to do with vast energy riches. Saudi Arabia uses the money to keep the masses in check to avoid Egypt like social unrest and Dubai is pretty much a playground for the rich in glittering buildings constricted via modern slave labor.
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Mar 7, 2013 01:57
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surrender posted:*Disclaimer: my family and I left in 1989, well before even Chavez's attempted coup, and I'm pretty agnostic on Chavez now Do you know any of your extended family or friends in Venezuela? If so what do they think off it there?
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Mar 7, 2013 02:20
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zoux posted:So this argument that I've seen bandied about, that the reductions in poverty, the increase in median income and access to education and health care are all unsustainable and are short term pandering that's going to sink the Venezuelan economy in the long term. Is that accurate? Chavez was, in a way, too old fashioned. He was a child of his time dealing with a country utterly crippled by poverty, corruption and under constant threat from the US. He didn't adapt so well with the times, to Venezuelas detriment, but some of the initiatives like the local councils and co-ops are gonna be a permanent change for the better there. The situation is unique enough that I at least don't feel qualified to make strong statements regarding the future.
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Mar 7, 2013 02:36
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punk rebel ecks posted:Do you know any of your extended family or friends in Venezuela? If so what do they think off it there? I have no connection to Venezuela but just wanted to throw this out there: I teach at a rather expensive English school in the US, and Venezuelans are our #3 in terms of enrollment (we have about 90 right now). Every single one was absent today because they were out partying last night. I have never seen such unequivocal dislike for a leader, with complete unanimity--and we had a bunch of Libyans here when Qadaffi went down. They are of course mostly doctors and geologists/chemical engineers, so they are definitely not the class that has benefited from chavismo. The diaspora that I've come into contact with completely hated this guy and none of them had good things to say about the future of Venezuela. Two of them have been killed in the last two years, both for their Iphones. Nobody mentions anything about poverty rates or infant mortality, and focus pretty much exclusively about the rise in violence and inflation, which I can't say I blame them for exactly.
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Mar 7, 2013 04:23
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Man, the bus thing also has people fighting over here, all it does it give fuel to chavistas to hate opposition members and make them seem even more classist. I'm just thankful the guy has some political experience, since he IS going to be our next president unless something major occurs to shake things up before the elections happen, but it seems they're logically going to postpone all further austerity measures until afterwards. The opposition has no chance unless Capriles comes out swinging hard and manages to take votes away from Maduro, who will be milking the death of Chavez for all it's worth until he's sworn in and polarizing the country further until it occurs. I wouldn't be surprised to see violence erupt between sides these days. At least these elections could once again be a turning point to force all opposition to further re-evaluate their leadership and their direction, since once Capriles loses, he should be out for good. Also yes, you're not going to find any Chavez supporters within the self-exiled, it's not something to be surprised about, since I suppose they're divided between the wealthy enough to leave and those with sufficient common sense to move away when crime started spiking. If you speak to young people, naturally they're going to be more concerned with what might seem banal reasons such as CADIVI or shortages, but violence should always be their common ground. Almost all of the wealthy or relatively well-off people I know have been kidnapped, robbed while inside of their own houses or just robbed several times and they've survived because they haven't resisted. I myself am not well-off by any stretch of the imagination, but I've been robbed at gunpoint several times, at knife-point once and shaken down by the police on a couple of occasions, nobody is inmune and interestingly enough it's the poorest of people who are killed the most often and yet don't see crime as a valid political talking point. Labradoodle fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Mar 7, 2013 |
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Mar 7, 2013 15:48
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How accurate is this? http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/19qw2q/eli5_official_thread_hugo_chavez_and_venezuela/c8qm3ew?context=1
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Mar 7, 2013 16:00
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Just want to say cheers Labradoodle, your posts are always well thought out and give some good insider perspective which is great to have, and you're always open about your personal leanings, which is pretty much all anyone could ask for
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Mar 7, 2013 16:07
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punk rebel ecks posted:How accurate is this? drat, that dude really went all in. I've touched on most of the subjects he mentions in there at some point earlier in this thread, but he explains better the difficulty of doing business in Venezuela. Now THAT is an accurate portrayal of the Chavez legacy. What would be really awesome is to see some of his hardcore supporters doing some in depth explanations of their own change in conditions, since by now you should've realized, about half of venezuelans see a completely different country than the others. I see a crumbling violence-ridden cesspit, others may see a struggling nation emerging from decades of mismanagement and classism the only way it knows how. baka kaba posted:Just want to say cheers Labradoodle, your posts are always well thought out and give some good insider perspective which is great to have, and you're always open about your personal leanings, which is pretty much all anyone could ask for Thanks, I appreciate it. It was a bit of a shock when I found this thread and realized that even on the outside people don't know what to make of Chavez, that and the past elections have forced me to consider the other side more. There's also one problem right now which I've hardly seen mentioned outside of Venezuela. It seems Maduro is seizing the opportunity that to proclaim himself president with the backing of the military and the Supreme Court when according to the constitution it should be the head of the National Assembly who assumes the seat in the interim. Right now of course this is obscured by Chavez's funeral (seven days of national mourning, with no school until monday), but it'd be interesting to see if the international community reacts to this. Either Maduro or Cabello should make no difference, but in practice this would transform the election into rather a ratification of Maduro's claim instead of a contest between equals. He'd have the incumbent advantage so to speak and incumbents are seldom beaten in Latin America. Labradoodle fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Mar 7, 2013 |
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Mar 7, 2013 16:18
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The guy really sounds like, in an odd way, the reality of what a Thaksin Shinawatra government would have been like here left unfettered. The thing that always hits me, though, is that this has to be a a necessary step in the growth of a country. In America's past we've had plenty of ridiculous behavior, from Jackson to FDR to Johnson and beyond, but many of these same terribly flawed people also accomplished great things and created a culturally accepted ethic for some new concept. I often wonder if countries don't need to go through this kind of experience to get the important topics out in the open on the one hand and, on the other hand, to create a palpable understanding of why every populist demagogue isn't to be believed. It seems to me that even the worst populist demagogue in a developing country, and Chavez was certainly not the worst, is valuable in that he disrupts the status quo, which otherwise would 100% absolutely not be disrupted, thereby creating new social services and areas of focus that had always been downplayed under status quo governments. I've certainly seen that here and the situation sounds so analogous in many ways. Guy's completely corrupt, is a charismatic bully, introduces flawed social programs, places focus on the poor, his friends steal everything that isn't nailed down and the next thing that happens is that the subsequent governments, who never would have done gently caress all previously, are forced to deal with this new reality and begin creating their own social programs and so on. ReindeerF fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Mar 7, 2013 |
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Mar 7, 2013 16:26
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Labradoodle posted:drat, that dude really went all in. I've touched on most of the subjects he mentions in there at some point earlier in this thread, but he explains better the difficulty of doing business in Venezuela. Now THAT is an accurate portrayal of the Chavez legacy. What would be really awesome is to see some of his hardcore supporters doing some in depth explanations of their own change in conditions, since by now you should've realized, about half of venezuelans see a completely different country than the others. I see a crumbling violence-ridden cesspit, others may see a struggling nation emerging from decades of mismanagement and classism the only way it knows how. I agree. Half of Venezuelans voted for Chavez. I never hear their side of the tale. There was the one pro-Chavez Venezuelan earlier but he quickly came in and out. And despite that guy making some good points some things are cherry picked or aren't accurate. What immediately stands out to me is how he linked to 2010 for real GDP growth. When last year they were one of the highest. I mean it 2013, why the gently caress would he link to 2010? There is also his unemployment claim. Venezuela's 2012 unemployment is estimated by the CIA to be lower than the United States's, and it is among the lowest in its own history. I'm not going to discredit him and I believe that much of what he says is correct, but I can't help that some of the stuff he says isn't as extreme as he claims. In my opinion if there were more competent people, instead of yes men, working the nationalized jobs, more effort put into reducing crime, relaxing price controls, and a much harder attempt to control inflation I feel that Venezuela would be going in the right direction. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be reality.
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Mar 7, 2013 18:26
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punk rebel ecks posted:I agree. Half of Venezuelans voted for Chavez. I never hear their side of the tale. There was the one pro-Chavez Venezuelan earlier but he quickly came in and out. And despite that guy making some good points some things are cherry picked or aren't accurate. What immediately stands out to me is how he linked to 2010 for real GDP growth. When last year they were one of the highest. I mean it 2013, why the gently caress would he link to 2010? There is also his unemployment claim. Venezuela's 2012 unemployment is estimated by the CIA to be lower than the United States's, and it is among the lowest in its own history. You can explain last year's GDP with the double elections and the accompanying public expenditure. This year is likely to be more austere regardless of the fact we have two elections as well because in the case of the presidentials, there's hardly any time and the municipals should just be a landslide for the side that wins the former. As for employment numbers, it's fair to mention that informal labor (around 40% of the able venezuelan workforce) is counted torwards these in any census. For example I could work peddling burnt DVDs on the sidewalk and still be counted as employed; which isn't to criticize the people that perform these kinds of jobs, but it was just last year that they were accepted into the social security program and of course, they don't have to pay sale taxes. It bears repeating that the state itself employs around 2 million people either directly or indirectly, which isn't a small number considering our workforce is around 13 million strong. I suppose that guy either sought the numbers that made his story look better or just misremembered, I admittedly didn't check them when I was reading it. I think if just crime were under control the opposition would likely be much smaller, it's much easier to lie about other statistics apart from that and inflation, but we've already undergone several during the past 14 and the government approval ratings remained strong. Labradoodle fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Mar 7, 2013 |
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Mar 7, 2013 20:50
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Does 40% of informal workforce mean that around 6 million out of the 13 million people in the workforce work informal jobs instead of traditional ones? Also were informal workers only recently counted in unemployment or were they always? Labradoodle posted:I think if just crime were under control the opposition would likely be much smaller, it's much easier to lie about other statistics apart from that and inflation, but we've already undergone several during the past 14 and the government approval ratings remained strong. Why? If Venezuela is failing apart why do a majority of Venezuelans support the government? punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Mar 7, 2013 |
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Mar 7, 2013 22:09
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http://bigstory.ap.org/article/chavez-body-be-permanently-displayedquote:CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — Venezuela's acting president says Hugo Chavez's embalmed body will be permanently displayed in a glass casket so that "his people will always have him." 
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Mar 7, 2013 22:37
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Man, if Chavez is the 21st century's response to Lenin then we're hosed. Chavez never wrote a single book 
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Mar 7, 2013 23:36
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Man, they're really doubling down on this cult of personality poo poo aren't they?
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Mar 7, 2013 23:37
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I think we can all agree that Hugo Chavez would love the hell out of this.
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Mar 7, 2013 23:41
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Lenin, by contrast, would have been absolutely furious.
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Mar 7, 2013 23:58
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http://laiguana.tv/noticias/2013/03..._medium=twitter Massive turnout for for the body of Chavez, and this isn't even the funeral.
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Mar 8, 2013 00:04
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