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Hallucinogenic Toreador posted:I think the difficulty for Paradox is that there isn't really a consensus among historians as to why western Europe overtook the middle east and Asia during this period, so how should they model it? I'd like to see something other than inherent bonuses for western Europe but I couldn't suggest a practical alternative that would give roughly historical results. Have to agree with the person who said Europe's fortune should be found in trade, not inherent bonuses for being Europe, because the domination of trade is what made Europe rise above everyone else in Eurasia. Of course such a system is more complicated to make than just giving every non-European state a research malus, but such a system should still be there anyway if you wish to make a game that includes the European adventures in the east, so might as well make that work instead of just settling for clunky malus solutions.
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Mar 12, 2013 07:08
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Why not have trade bring in bonuses to research or chances to gain advances as well, depending on the volume of trade that goes through? I can see this easily as a way to represent valuable knowledge and goods being exchanged on trade routes.
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Mar 12, 2013 07:17
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Have to agree with the person who said Europe's fortune should be found in trade, not inherent bonuses for being Europe, because the domination of trade is what made Europe rise above everyone else in Eurasia. Of course such a system is more complicated to make than just giving every non-European state a research malus, but such a system should still be there anyway if you wish to make a game that includes the European adventures in the east, so might as well make that work instead of just settling for clunky malus solutions. It also you know, doesn't work with the new tech system which is based on monarch points.
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Mar 12, 2013 09:00
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WhitemageofDOOM posted:It also you know, doesn't work with the new tech system which is based on monarch points. Why not? Just have a load of situational modifiers for how many monarch points a tech costs.
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Mar 12, 2013 09:16
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DrSunshine posted:I really hope they don't go with the "Westernization" thing for EU4, where the more close to Western you are, the better, because it just stinks of Eurocentrism. Like being Western is the greatest thing in the world! Somebody really ought to give the Paradox devs a copy of Guns, Germs and Steel. There's at least one person over on the Paradox forums who brought and mailed a copy of Guns, Germs and Steel over to the Paradox offices shortly after the announcement of the Aztec Invasion DLC, because he wanted to make drat well sure that Paradox understood how horrible and ahistorical Aztecs invading were. Turns out later he got the address wrong and mailed it to their US marketing department, but the devs confirmed that there was no need to send the book anyhow - they've read it.
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Mar 12, 2013 11:25
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It always amazes me how mad people get about alt-history in a game explicitly about creating your own alt-history.
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Mar 12, 2013 11:36
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Friend Commuter posted:Why not? Just have a load of situational modifiers for how many monarch points a tech costs. DrSunshine posted:Why not have trade bring in bonuses to research or chances to gain advances as well, depending on the volume of trade that goes through? I can see this easily as a way to represent valuable knowledge and goods being exchanged on trade routes.
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Mar 12, 2013 12:04
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Antinumeric posted:It always amazes me how mad people get about alt-history in a game explicitly about creating your own alt-history.
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Mar 12, 2013 12:04
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Kainser posted:There is a difference between plausible alternate history and "hey, this sounds cool!" alternate history. But Sunset Invasion was firmly in the latter camp and had no pretensions of being anywhere near the former 
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Mar 12, 2013 12:07
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Sunset Invasion is just a goofy fun thing, and it's okay that some people think it's too goofy, but those people tend to be oddly outspoken about how such a thing should never be made and sold. For some reason.
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Mar 12, 2013 12:12
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I think there are some folks out there who've coupled their egos (and a sense of their own intelligence) with their affinity for these games. When they see one get the History Channel's Ancient Aliens treatment, they're reminded that their hobby is oriented around a nice entertainment product instead of a History PhD and they start flipping tables.
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Mar 12, 2013 12:31
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Kainser posted:There is a difference between plausible alternate history and "hey, this sounds cool!" alternate history. But 99% of the stuff that happens in these games falls solidly into unplausible. Unless you think that the Grand Duchy of Lithuania being conquered by 1100 is plausible, or Wales conquering the British Isles, or Brittany landing a few troops in the Holy Land on a crusade and turning it into the Merchant Republic of Jerusalem. I remember how the Finns trembled at the thought of the Sami reforming into the feudal system and conquering Scandanivia. It seemed so plausible. Or the 1400 start of EU3 and the people who return the ERE from the brink. Antinumeric fucked around with this message at 12:50 on Mar 12, 2013 |
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Mar 12, 2013 12:44
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Antinumeric posted:But 99% of the stuff that happens in these games falls solidly into unplausible. There's a lot of people who wish that the stuff that went on without player intervention was more plausible, though. That stuff isn't really implausible by design and it would be better if the world you play in was more consistently believable. But I still enjoy stuff like Sunset Invasion every now and then, and I think the criticism that often gets put against it completely misses the point.
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Mar 12, 2013 12:50
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I guess I could understand the criticism of Sunset Invasion if Paradox were somehow forcing every CK2 owner to download it and play with it installed. As it is it's just a fun little DLC that those who want to can use and everyone else can ignore, it doesn't really seem worth getting that worked up about.
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Mar 12, 2013 13:06
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Yeah, I'm in the position with Sunset Invasion where I don't want to use it in my own games because it's a little bit too goofy for what I want from CK2, but I like the fact that it exists.
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Mar 12, 2013 13:24
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Yeah, it's not for me but it made me very happy to see it being made. I get the impression, from seeing dev's posts and from things that Sunset Invasion, that the devs enjoy their work, at least a little bit. I like that, there does seem to still be humanity and humour in the company despite its success 
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Mar 12, 2013 13:37
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I like it just for the fact of how many people it made rage. Added with the CK2+ change to make it "random" really makes it more exciting, also.
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Mar 12, 2013 13:38
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John Charity Spring posted:Yeah, I'm in the position with Sunset Invasion where I don't want to use it in my own games because it's a little bit too goofy for what I want from CK2, but I like the fact that it exists. I can get this. I like it because it provides some threat to the west half of the map. No-where is safe! Also I tend to view CK2 as a simulation of some madcap version of Europe where everyone is bloodthirsty and insane.
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Mar 12, 2013 13:40
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Doctor Schnabel posted:I think there are some folks out there who've coupled their egos (and a sense of their own intelligence) with their affinity for these games. When they see one get the History Channel's Ancient Aliens treatment, they're reminded that their hobby is oriented around a nice entertainment product instead of a History PhD and they start flipping tables. Yeah, I can definitely see some of that on the forums, and not just because of the historical side, either. There's a strong sense of "Paradox games provide TRUE depth and strategy, I am above the petty mindless clickfests of C&C or Starcraft and my affinity for these games demonstrates my superior intellect." Which causes screaming every time Paradox seems like it's "dumbing down" the game for people who don't feel like spending hours climbing a learning curve.
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Mar 12, 2013 13:49
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Is there a guide for fiddling with the number of Pops in an area in V2. I'm trying to setup a divided states start, but I can't get APD started (it always crashes to desktop when i go to start a game) and regular V2 doesn't have enough Pops in starting states to beging with it.
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Mar 12, 2013 13:54
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Guildencrantz posted:But Sunset Invasion was firmly in the latter camp and had no pretensions of being anywhere near the former And I honestly don't know why anybody would give the slightest poo poo considering you can de/activate it at will
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Mar 12, 2013 14:19
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Yeah, if those don't exist then the problem is practically solved anyway! (and America suddenly becomes harder to conquer.) I thought about this some more, and the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. Let's say that in 1400, China has the relative advantage in terms of technological advancement in comparison to Europe, in most technologies. But the more trade you have, the more likely you may experience diffusion of ideas, etc., that may reduce stability. So China closes down its trade. By then, many of its technologies have already diffused to its nearest neighbors in India and the Middle East, so by the time China closes up, Europe starts to get trade idea diffusion from the Middle East and starts to rapidly technologically advance. Meanwhile, because European countries are so close and interlinked, ideas diffuse rapidly along the many trade routes that they have with each other, so Europe quickly starts to catch up to the isolationist China. I think this would be a great system to model the technological stagnation of isolationist powers, like the relatively slow advancement of Japan. Also, this way it gives the players a way to directly influence the progress of their society without straitjacketing them into arbitrary (and somewhat racist) groups based on proximity to "The West".
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Mar 12, 2013 14:48
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Krataar posted:Is there a guide for fiddling with the number of Pops in an area in V2. I'm trying to setup a divided states start, but I can't get APD started (it always crashes to desktop when i go to start a game) and regular V2 doesn't have enough Pops in starting states to beging with it. First I'd check your version of V2, APD shouldn't crash without good reason. Anyways, changing POPs is quite straightforward, they are in several text files within "X:\WhateverYouUse\Victoria II\history\pops\". Just do a search for the province you want to edit and change the numbers around and you can even add new types of POPs et al. It looks like this: " #Atlantic City (88000/22000 POPS) 231 = { clergymen = { culture = yankee religion = protestant size = 150 } artisans = { culture = yankee religion = protestant size = 1100 } soldiers = { culture = yankee religion = protestant size = 225 } farmers = { culture = yankee religion = protestant size = 20525 } } " So it's easy enough. You may want to make your own mod if you care about multiplayer compatibility, but if you play these games on your own, don't worry about it. Just make sure to make a backup of the Pops folder in case something goes wrong so you won't be forced to re-install the game. And if you add new types of POPs, make sure that they all have their brackets in the right place. A rogue bracket is a world of pain!
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Mar 12, 2013 14:50
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Antinumeric posted:I can get this. I like it because it provides some threat to the west half of the map. No-where is safe! Thats basically why I like it as well. Starting out on the British Isles is a lot of fun, but it there's not a lot to do once you've formed Britannia and gotten it stable. Granted, doing that is no small feat but it's not like playing Eastern Europe where your personal political ambitions are constantly being threatened by the Invasion of the Week.
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Mar 12, 2013 15:19
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How are small countries like Switzerland played in AHD? Can you expand at all without running into Austria? Do you get France to help you expand or?
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Mar 12, 2013 16:01
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Tahirovic posted:How are small countries like Switzerland played in AHD? Can you expand at all without running into Austria? Do you get France to help you expand or? If you are using the APD mod then Switzerland has a built-in event that makes it neutral by ending wars automatically. For Vanilla (or in APD) as any of the small powers in the south end it's a good idea to ally up with all of the other minors in the area. Minors seem to not be as tight about their allying than with the GPs, so you should be able to have a good sized network of friends. v: Jack aggressiveness all the way up. Watch the entire world shatter. Rynoto fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Mar 12, 2013 |
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Mar 12, 2013 16:09
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What difficulty and aggressiveness do most people play vanilla EU3 at? I've played at Normal/Normal but the AI always seems to roll over at that level. I think in 200 years as the Ottomans I only had one war declared on me, it was Austria. the only country that seems to gain any footing in gaining size and not exploding due to rebels was Castille/Spain. England formed GB and then exploded into its constituent parts at least 3 times, and France never really went anywhere. I want big countries screwing each other, dammit.
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Mar 12, 2013 16:36
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I usually play on Normal/low aggressiveness, since that makes for more stable blobs. Unfortunately that does make it a bit too easy to get to a point where you're pretty much unbeatable, but I'm just unable to enjoy the higher difficulty levels where the AI gets bonuses. The first battle where I realize the AI wins due to the difficulty bonuses is enough to drain all fun.
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Mar 12, 2013 16:54
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MC2552John posted:What difficulty and aggressiveness do most people play vanilla EU3 at? I've played at Normal/Normal but the AI always seems to roll over at that level. I think in 200 years as the Ottomans I only had one war declared on me, it was Austria. the only country that seems to gain any footing in gaining size and not exploding due to rebels was Castille/Spain. England formed GB and then exploded into its constituent parts at least 3 times, and France never really went anywhere. I want big countries screwing each other, dammit. Turn Lucky Nations on, either historial or not. The AI is really hopeless about keeping its empires together. In one game I owned everything from Fez to Jerusalem, as well as all of Italy and southern France, including a huge mercantile base and colonies, no revolt risk whatsoever. I switched nations to try and topple my empire as a challenge for the second half of the game. Shouldn't have bothered, AI managed to go bankrupt seven years in. Somehow.
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Mar 12, 2013 17:23
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ZearothK posted:Turn Lucky Nations on, either historial or not. The AI is really hopeless about keeping its empires together. In one game I owned everything from Fez to Jerusalem, as well as all of Italy and southern France, including a huge mercantile base and colonies, no revolt risk whatsoever. I switched nations to try and topple my empire as a challenge for the second half of the game.
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Mar 12, 2013 17:29
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Sunset Invasion is going to be INCREDIBLE when Old Gods comes out because paradox confirmed that you'll be able to play as an Aztec character.
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Mar 12, 2013 17:32
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Antinumeric posted:Also I tend to view CK2 as a simulation of some madcap version of Europe where everyone is bloodthirsty and insane. So, just plain old ordinary Europe, then?
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Mar 12, 2013 17:35
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Yes, but with less prestigious art funded.
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Mar 12, 2013 17:40
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Rynoto posted:If you are using the APD mod then Switzerland has a built-in event that makes it neutral by ending wars automatically. For Vanilla (or in APD) as any of the small powers in the south end it's a good idea to ally up with all of the other minors in the area. Minors seem to not be as tight about their allying than with the GPs, so you should be able to have a good sized network of friends. You also cannot manufacture CBs against them of any kind even with less than 50 relations. One of the many features that is now causing me to encourage people to just not bother with APD: I do like that there are more things that factor into religious and cultural conversions, and some of the new events are alright but between Switzerland being hilariously unplayable and the multiple redundant and useless troop types, I think vanilla or NNM is the way to go nowadays. MC2552John posted:What difficulty and aggressiveness do most people play vanilla EU3 at? I've played at Normal/Normal but the AI always seems to roll over at that level. I think in 200 years as the Ottomans I only had one war declared on me, it was Austria. the only country that seems to gain any footing in gaining size and not exploding due to rebels was Castille/Spain. England formed GB and then exploded into its constituent parts at least 3 times, and France never really went anywhere. I want big countries screwing each other, dammit. Normal/Low with lucky nations set to random. It tends to lead to blobs that are not overly aggressive so they can usually stabilize quite nicely.
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Mar 12, 2013 18:01
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Sometimes it's fun to play with AI aggressiveness set on high, play as a country in the far east, and then see what a clusterfuck Europe has turned into when the map gets revealed.DrProsek posted:You also cannot manufacture CBs against them of any kind even with less than 50 relations. One of the many features that is now causing me to encourage people to just not bother with APD: I do like that there are more things that factor into religious and cultural conversions, and some of the new events are alright but between Switzerland being hilariously unplayable and the multiple redundant and useless troop types, I think vanilla or NNM is the way to go nowadays. I like APD for the new resources and supply chains. In vanilla, for example, you need cotton and dye to make fabric. Wool doesn't factor into it at all, in fact wool isn't used to make any kind of industrial good. Also the dye requirement makes it so you can't make fabric unless you're Britain, because they control the world's dye supply until you can make your own. In APD, there are actually two different fabric factories, one that consumes only cotton and one that consumes only wool. It does similar things with other goods, like canned food and liquor. But beside that, the other stuff you mentioned, especially the seemingly aimless tweaking of military unit stats (hmmm yase lets give cavalry a maneuver value of SIX) is completely unbearable. Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Mar 12, 2013 |
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Mar 12, 2013 18:23
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To dig up the old conversation about a Red Mars game, this seems to be pretty close. Paradox should jump on this, because it'll be a cold day in hell before a product this niche raises $700k in a month. It seems like the kind of interesting niche strategy game that's right up their alley. *edit* I'd use Lucky Nations more if it wasn't a total lie. It only chooses lucky nations from a small list of European nations. You're not going to see a lucky Sibir or Ashanti or Cherokee, which is disappointing. Wolfgang Pauli fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Mar 12, 2013 |
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Mar 12, 2013 18:54
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Friend Commuter posted:Why not? Just have a load of situational modifiers for how many monarch points a tech costs. Because that would be pointlessly/tediously complex for what's intended to be no net effect.(I mean, i assume you balance this so europe wins.) Also scaling it to nation size properly would be a bitch. DrSunshine posted:I thought about this some more, and the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. So, what is the players role in this? Farecoal posted:And I honestly don't know why anybody would give the slightest poo poo considering you can de/activate it at will People on the paradox forums are whining that the possible existence of a random new world dlc would break their immersion. People on the paradox forums say their immersion is broken because genoa isn't as viable for conquering france as france is. People on the paradox forums are loving stupid. DrProsek posted:You also cannot manufacture CBs against them of any kind even with less than 50 relations. One of the many features that is now causing me to encourage people to just not bother with APD: I do like that there are more things that factor into religious and cultural conversions, and some of the new events are alright but between Switzerland being hilariously unplayable and the multiple redundant and useless troop types, I think vanilla or NNM is the way to go nowadays. It's funny when you are france, have had allied and sphered switzerland all game and have annexed all of south germany in the napoleonic wars mk2 and have freed quebec and ireland from britain for shits and giggles. Switzerland, still neutral. So every time i went to war i had to accept their alliance offer. I play serbia mod now. Fister Roboto posted:I like APD for the new resources and supply chains. In vanilla, for example, you need cotton and dye to make fabric. Wool doesn't factor into it at all, in fact wool isn't used to make any kind of industrial good. Also the dye requirement makes it so you can't make fabric unless you're Britain, because they control the world's dye supply until you can make your own. In APD, there are actually two different fabric factories, one that consumes only cotton and one that consumes only wool. It does similar things with other goods, like canned food and liquor. But beside that, the other stuff you mentioned, especially the seemingly aimless tweaking of military unit stats (hmmm yase lets give cavalry a maneuver value of SIX) is completely unbearable. The economic changes have always been great, but everything else they do tends towards awful. (Armies in AHD -totally- need more micromanagement!)
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Mar 12, 2013 18:59
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I'm playing Afghanistan in APD and I just lost Horse Artillery and Regulars after Westernizing. I don't even... 
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Mar 12, 2013 19:03
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WhitemageofDOOM posted:So, what is the players role in this? Tweaking a "stability" vs "trade & tech" slider, in addition to the more advanced trade route manipulation/dominance mechanics that are actually coming in EU4. ...honestly, this could plausibly be moddable.
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Mar 12, 2013 19:17
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PleasingFungus posted:Tweaking a "stability" vs "trade & tech" slider, in addition to the more advanced trade route manipulation/dominance mechanics that are actually coming in EU4. Sliders are awful and tweaking them isn't exactly compelling game play. Where as monpoints sound like interesting compelling gameplay with options all the way down.
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Mar 12, 2013 19:21
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