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After the nuclear holocaust, when all electronic devices have been wiped out, then you'll see 
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Mar 26, 2013 05:14
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Mr. Eric Praline posted:The stupid 675 computer won't even crank the starter at anything under 11.6v. I'm convinced it won't cycle the injectors or really do anything under 11.6v, I rode it down 3 levels of a carpark trying to get it to start to no avail.
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Mar 26, 2013 06:16
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:Throttle response, for one. Modern fuel injection on bikes is pretty drat good, but the immediacy of a nice carb thats tuned well is something to behold. Not to diss on carbs or anything, but you can't argue with the speed of light.
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Mar 26, 2013 06:27
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Nerobro posted:There are some rpm limitations on that equipment. But really? Do you need MORE torque on a machine geared for 100mph in first gear?  
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Mar 26, 2013 07:52
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Sagebrush posted:After the nuclear holocaust, when all electronic devices have been wiped out, then you'll see Isn't a battery considered an electronic device?  I guess you go back to retrofitting kickstarters.
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Mar 26, 2013 08:31
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Sagebrush posted:After the nuclear holocaust, when all electronic devices have been wiped out, then you'll see Someone figured out how to rig a magneto system on your CL350? I thought not. 
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Mar 26, 2013 08:33
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Nidhg00670000 posted:Someone figured out how to rig a magneto system on your CL350? I thought not. Someone rigged a magneto and capacitor system to my Enfield? I thought so (seriously, when you've only got 17hp the lack of real timing doesn't matter too much.
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Mar 26, 2013 08:42
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Slavvy posted:The 'vtec' in the VFR wasn't anything like car vtec, it was simply a system to shut off one in two intake valves for improved low-range pull IIRC. Aprilia had a couple of 2-stroke scooters with direct-injection engines pre-Piaggio takeover. They got amazing mileage figures (300 mpg for one of the 50s) but seem to have got lost in the shuffle of the takeover and Euro3 coming in. They were also making some incredibly impressive claims for the stratified-charge direct-injection system they had working on the bench (>90 bhp from a 250 2-stroke - not sure how lubrication is handled in a direct-injection stroker) but nothing seemed to come of that. I think, like with VTEC-like systems, there's a massive amount of complexity involved that would probably mean that they wouldn't get much more power out of them than existing, mature technologies. Stratified-charge, in particular (which allows you to run gigantic compression ratios and even safely use detonation in the engine) has a lot of potential (Ferrari are said to be looking at it for F1 engines). On the road though, the engine has to be incredibly well engineered, in particular to eliminate any kind of hot or cold spots, and the injectors take up a lot of space in the head (which is probably why the technology was used on two-strokes first).
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Mar 26, 2013 08:44
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Sagebrush posted:After the nuclear holocaust, when all electronic devices have been wiped out, then you'll see Have you checked your distributor lately?
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Mar 26, 2013 08:45
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:Throttle response, for one. Modern fuel injection on bikes is pretty drat good, but the immediacy of a nice carb thats tuned well is something to behold. Try riding a KTM 690 on the performance throttle/fuel map and you'll drop this idea, it's all about how an EFI system is programmed. Fuel injection is capable of having all the "immediacy" of flatslides, with the added bonus that it wont bog when you just whack it open. As for the nuclear holocaust, wont all the fuel turn to varnish within a year or two anyway? ReelBigLizard fucked around with this message at 10:12 on Mar 26, 2013 |
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Mar 26, 2013 10:10
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ReelBigLizard posted:Fuel injection is capable of having all the "immediacy" of flatslides, with the added bonus that it wont bog when you just whack it open. I'm not sure if it's because of BMW purposefully handicapping the F700GS but my GS does bog down if I rip open the throttle to launch. I wonder if there's an easy way for me to load an F800GS map on to it? my friends 800 doesn't have any such issue.
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Mar 26, 2013 10:53
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ReelBigLizard posted:Try riding a KTM 690 on the performance throttle/fuel map and you'll drop this idea, it's all about how an EFI system is programmed. Fuel injection is capable of having all the "immediacy" of flatslides, with the added bonus that it wont bog when you just whack it open. If it bogs when you go wot, then it's not set up right. They don't just bog by default because they're carbs or something. Ride a bike that's set up right and you'll drop this idea 
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Mar 26, 2013 12:21
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Nidhg00670000 posted:Someone figured out how to rig a magneto system on your CL350? I thought not.
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Mar 26, 2013 13:57
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Geirskogul posted:Carbs may be nice, but an electrical signal and a solenoid are much faster than actual physics waiting to ramp up enough vacuum to suck more fuel through a venturi. A good ECU can even predict throttle positions, making FI response faster than literally any carb can achieve. Well, you're right when talking about CV carbs. Those do need to wait to build vacuum in order to move the slide, and are definitely no comparison to a well sorted FI setup. I'm talking about modern flatslide carbs with accelerator pumps. The thing about an accelerator pump is that its basically mechanical fuel injection. Its directly linked to the throttle and the instant the throttle is opened it squirts fuel into the intake to account for the momentary drop in vacuum. The thing about an accelerator pump is that its as immediate as immediate can be. Its driven off the throttle, there is 0 lag, and if its set up right, provides the fuel required for immediate acceleration. The bog that reelbiglizard is talking about comes from improperly tuned accelerator pumps. Anyway, fuel injection, by its nature is a computerized system that needs to apply some logic before it makes any moves. It needs to take the throttle position, variables like outside temperature and air density, information from the cooling system, knock sensors, the values listed in fuel and ignition maps, etc, before it makes a decision on how much fuel to inject. Now, its 2013, and that doesnt take too long thanks to modern computer technology, but it takes clock cycles. If we're going to split hairs and invoke the term "speed of light", carburetion still wins here. Predictive fuel injection could indeed make changes instantaneously, or even before you decide to make them at the throttle, something which a carburetor can never do. Unfortunately, like all predictive technologies, by their nature, they sometimes predict incorrectly, so there's that. Dont get me wrong, fuel injection is great, it allows you to do a lot of stuff you cant do with carbs (like vary fuel delivery based on all kinds of data that you cant feed to a carb), and im certainly not one of those people who hates FI and wishes everything still had carbs, but if we're going to talk about which one reacts faster, its the one driven directly by metal rods, and not a computer with a job to do.
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Mar 26, 2013 13:59
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Has anyone tried the Corbin modular seat for the ER-6? The bike has literally zero storage space and I'm allergic to top boxes, but the smuggler trunk looks fairly okay.
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Mar 26, 2013 14:27
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ThatCguy posted:Fuel delivery, throttle response, mpg, etc are all vastly superior with EFI. I am a very, very big fan of EFI, i'm a bigger fan of electronic engine management. Just to be clear. But anyone who goes "carbs are useless and pointless" are at a lack of understanding of what's going on. EFI is limited by it's sensors. Carbs have their benefit right off of closed throttle. Transition from closed throttle to open throttle is very difficult for EFI, due the sensor resolution. The change in fueling needs between idle and 5% throttle is HUGE. But the amount of data the engine computer can pick up, isn't. Also, the resolution of driving the injectors is somewhat limited. This is not the case with carbs, since the amount of airflow determines the fuel flow, and there's no steps involved. Throttle response is a tuning thing, not so much as fuel delivery system thing. Clever programming can get you places, but it's just that, clever programming. Throttle by wire can cover a lot of the sins. MPG can be better, but at the expense of throttle response. Again, throttle by wire can cover a lot of that. Throttle by wire is a separate subject than EFI, and a very interesting one. But by letting the computer skip around the things it can't do well, it can get you the feel of an analog fueling setup. It's how motogp bikes get good fuel economy without lovely throttle response for the riders. Also note, EFI takes power. At last check, about half a horsepower to run. So if you're running a bike with a small engine, that could be "real power" you're giving up. And if you want to really see the limits of EFI, try designing the sensors needed to get good fueling. You'll rip your hair out by the time you're trying to find AD that gives you meaningful numbers at high, and low vacuums. :-)
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Mar 26, 2013 15:26
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As far as I understand it, even with the accelerator pump you are still going to compromise somewhere and it must be adjusted for how you're going to ride it. I've ridden a number of carbed and injected bikes, including a couple of FCR'd KTMs and the injected bikes always felt more "connected" on the throttle. The ECUs are operating in the Mhz range on purpose built embedded hardware and typically use PID algorithms to "predict" the next few milliseconds. This isn't a "computer" in the desktop sense, it has nothing else to do but take one number and turn it into another, which it does immediately. Basically what it comes down to is the most advanced carburetion technology, after more than 100 years of development is still only almost as good as even the most basic injection system when adjusted perfectly and all conditions are right*. The reliability "I can fix it on the side of the road" argument is pretty much moot as unless you're running a bike with points you're still using silicon to control your ignition curve. The "computer" is fully potted in weather proof resin and runs on firmware and can be easily reset, usually by cycling the power. The only thing prone to eventual failure, especially after eating dirty fuel, is the injectors which are neither particularly expensive nor large (so you can keep one in the tool roll if you're paranoid or taking a long trip).
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Mar 26, 2013 15:29
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BlackMK4 posted:There is room for more power. Always. Hahaha. So you can shift less right? We'll soon have 1000cc bikes with 2 gears. first goes to 100, second to 200. ..... I wonder if you'd save weight that way. ReelBigLizard posted:The ECUs are operating in the Mhz range on purpose built embedded hardware and typically use PID algorithms to "predict" the next few milliseconds. This isn't a "computer" in the desktop sense, it has nothing else to do but take one number and turn it into another, which it does immediately. Nerobro fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Mar 26, 2013 |
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Mar 26, 2013 15:29
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Collateral Damage posted:Has anyone tried the Corbin modular seat for the ER-6? The bike has literally zero storage space and I'm allergic to top boxes, but the smuggler trunk looks fairly okay. It makes your subframe look like a penis
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Mar 26, 2013 15:48
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ReelBigLizard posted:
I don't have points ignition, but a mechanical advance (not silicon) controls my ignition curve.
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Mar 26, 2013 15:49
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Z3n posted:Have you got the A/F dialed in yet? Sounds like no, so I'd fix the jetting first and the pinging will probably go away. You need either an A/F sensor or some quality time on a dyno. I'm working on it, but the jetting now should be at least close to correct with 162 mains. Others with 944 hi comp builds run 155-162 main jets with the occasional 165 so at least I'm in the ballpark. Unfortunately my innovate wideband sensor clamp got spat out of my exhaust on a test run last weekend on the freeway and damaged so I'm doing this the old fashioned way. I agree that it would be premature to invest yet but I'm looking at my options. I've already checked the mechanical setup (squish, valve timing, etc) and done the suggested electrical changes (retarded pickup timing across the board) so if I can't jet this away I'm going to need to look at the spark curve. JE's are too nice to put holes in. edit: Really digging the FCRs over the old Mikuni CV setup. Extra power aside the accelerator pump response right on roll-on really is instant and I'm totally onboard with these. Bruinator fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Mar 26, 2013 |
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Mar 26, 2013 15:52
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ReelBigLizard posted:As far as I understand it, even with the accelerator pump you are still going to compromise somewhere and it must be adjusted for how you're going to ride it. I've ridden a number of carbed and injected bikes, including a couple of FCR'd KTMs and the injected bikes always felt more "connected" on the throttle. The ECUs are operating in the Mhz range on purpose built embedded hardware and typically use PID algorithms to "predict" the next few milliseconds. This isn't a "computer" in the desktop sense, it has nothing else to do but take one number and turn it into another, which it does immediately. As I mentioned, yes, fuel injection can account for things that carbs can not account for, or need to be readjusted for. Your second paragraph is spoken like someone who has never ridden anything but a top-notch injection system, as they can get really really bad and make you wish you had a clogged up CV carb instead, although thats more down to the fault of the manufacturer rather than the fault of fuel injection in general. I'm not arguing the reliability standpoint, as I wouldnt want to fix a carb or fuel injection on the side of the road either way. The fact of the matter is that what you're arguing is subjective feel, and again, if you're arguing that a properly tuned FCRMX is only almost as good as the most basic of fuel injection systems, then the FCR's you've ridden were not set up right, as a properly tuned FCR is objectively much better than the most basic fuel injection system.
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Mar 26, 2013 16:26
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A lot of the "EFI sucks right off idle" stuff comes from the fact that EFI systems tend to be tuned very, very lean at idle / low RPMs for emissions testing reasons. The ability of EFI to be able to be tuned really lean at low RPMs and still work, eh, acceptably enough there to pass the emissions tests and still pump out the horses at high RPM is the main reason it' replaced carbs. If you get a map that brings fuel back where it really should be at those RPMs, the bikes tend to get much nicer behaving in those regimes. (Your bike will probably also smell more like gas while running on the kickstand.) Direct injection requires much higher pressure fuel delivery systems, so bigger fuel pumps, stronger fuel lines, etc. It'll be great to have when we get it but again there's no killer demand for it right now. Moto buyers looking for fuel economy seem plenty willing to just trade down to a smaller engine to get the numbers they want.
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Mar 26, 2013 16:37
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Collateral Damage posted:Has anyone tried the Corbin modular seat for the ER-6? The bike has literally zero storage space and I'm allergic to top boxes, but the smuggler trunk looks fairly okay. I don't have an ER-6, but I do have a corbin modular system w/smuggler on my concours. I am a big fan of them. Fit and finish are very good. Paint quality was great and a dead on match (although I scratched the gently caress out of it before I mounted it!). Looks completely factory IMHO. Don't know how the size would quite compare to mine, but it is very roomy. I rarely need to use the saddlebags unless I'm grocery shopping or something. If I had to nitpick at all, I needed to adjust the latch to catch right out of the box. One of the mounting bolts was hosed from the get-go so I had to go over it with a die to make it usable. Other than that, go for it if you have the $$$. 
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Mar 26, 2013 16:46
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Odette posted:Isn't a battery considered an electronic device? goddamnedtwisto posted:Have you checked your distributor lately? Nidhg00670000 posted:Someone figured out how to rig a magneto system on your CL350? I thought not. Well, actually: the reason an electromagnetic pulse destroys electronics is because it induces a huge current in all the conductive parts, like the wiring and circuit board traces. ICs and other miniaturized components can't generally handle more than a few milliamps, so they just pop. On the other hand, if the wiring and the components connected to it can handle a large surge of current in normal use, they'll go right on running when the blast is passed. So unless the detonation was right above you, in which case you've got larger problems, I bet that you'd find an old motorcycle would blow out its lamps and any new electronics you'd installed (say, an electronic reg/rec) but otherwise everything would keep on truckin'.
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Mar 26, 2013 18:13
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Fuel injection is awesome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2iBbwocYZw (Yes, I know strictly speaking it's off-topic, but this is awesome)
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Mar 26, 2013 18:28
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Bruinator posted:I'm working on it, but the jetting now should be at least close to correct with 162 mains. Others with 944 hi comp builds run 155-162 main jets with the occasional 165 so at least I'm in the ballpark. Unfortunately my innovate wideband sensor clamp got spat out of my exhaust on a test run last weekend on the freeway and damaged so I'm doing this the old fashioned way. I'd try bumping to 165 at least - also, do you have old/lovely gas in there? Because drat that poo poo will make pings all day long. Sounds like you're on it otherwise though. On the Carb/FI debate - it's all down to setup. Anything can be made to run lovely, it's more about having a quality setup than the way you do it.
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Mar 26, 2013 19:01
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:Throttle response, for one. Modern fuel injection on bikes is pretty drat good, but the immediacy of a nice carb thats tuned well is something to behold. Correction: EFI with feedback-based mapping are less immediate than carbs. You can totally set up an EFI system to work entirely based on throttle position and RPM and it will be every bit as immediate as a carb - they're just not set up that way (outside of open-loop operation before the O2 sensor warms up), and so most EFI systems operate in closed-loop feedback mode, where they add fuel based on the feedback from the O2 sensor and/or the AFM/MAF sensor, for better emissions. Amongst auto racers, at least, it's quite common to set up something like a Megasquirt to not even use an air meter and 02 sensor at anything except idle, and to pretty much base all the fueling off the throttle position and RPM precisely for that quick response. Carbs are never better than EFI in ANY situation, unless you are an absolute techophobic shut-in. Nerobro posted:EFI is limited by it's sensors. Carbs have their benefit right off of closed throttle. Transition from closed throttle to open throttle is very difficult for EFI, due the sensor resolution. The change in fueling needs between idle and 5% throttle is HUGE. But the amount of data the engine computer can pick up, isn't. Also, the resolution of driving the injectors is somewhat limited. This is not the case with carbs, since the amount of airflow determines the fuel flow, and there's no steps involved. As I noted above, you can pretty easily tune an ECU to just ignore anything but RPM and the TPS. Air metering and feedback from an O2 sensor are nice, but not totally necessary for an engine to be 'fuel injected'. The real answer to "why is my engine so unresponsive" is always down to either lack of proper maintenance/tuning or 'emissions garbage', and that applies equally to carbs AND EFI.
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Mar 26, 2013 19:13
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HotCanadianChick posted:As I noted above, you can pretty easily tune an ECU to just ignore anything but RPM and the TPS. Air metering and feedback from an O2 sensor are nice, but not totally necessary for an engine to be 'fuel injected'. Haha, I ran TPS/RPM only on a 3000 mile trip with like 8000 feet altitude gain last summer. It was a little... rough. But yeah, just as an example, it can be done. At the moment, I am working on fine-tuning my ECM based on some datalogging. With the closed loop features enabled, the (or at least my) ECM will still fall back on TPS/RPM - with pre-calculated [read: it doesn't need any trailing time to calculate them] pulse width corrections - in certain conditions such as outside the closed loop boundaries and throttle position over certain %. These types of ECMs will give you really good throttle response pretty much all the time, unless it's tuned wrong or something is broken.
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Mar 26, 2013 19:55
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HotCanadianChick posted:As I noted above, you can pretty easily tune an ECU to just ignore anything but RPM and the TPS. Air metering and feedback from an O2 sensor are nice, but not totally necessary for an engine to be 'fuel injected'. As I mentioned before, there are ways around it. If you have drive by wire, you can program around the sensor problem. If you have a cable on the throttle, carbs will still have an advantage. Unless you like shelling out thousands of dollars for a TPS that can handle a gnats dicks width of throttle opening.
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Mar 26, 2013 19:56
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HotCanadianChick posted:Correction: EFI with feedback-based mapping are less immediate than carbs. You can totally set up an EFI system to work entirely based on throttle position and RPM and it will be every bit as immediate as a carb - they're just not set up that way (outside of open-loop operation before the O2 sensor warms up), and so most EFI systems operate in closed-loop feedback mode, where they add fuel based on the feedback from the O2 sensor and/or the AFM/MAF sensor, for better emissions. So the point you're making here is that carbs are NEVER better than EFI in any situation, except for in the situation of 98% of the vehicles on the road, is that right?
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Mar 26, 2013 21:13
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Feedback doesn't matter. When you're in the "power" map of efi, it's ignoring it's narrow-band o2 sensor anyway. In some implementations it's even ignoring the startup MAP reading. EFI only operates in closed loop at part throttle, near constant speed situations. O2 sensors have lag, significant lag. On the order of 1/3 to 1/2 of a second. But he's also stating things that are true for cars, while motorcycle EFI often throws all of that out the window. The "latest" bikes have o2 sensors, but that's recent. From 1999-2010 or so, virtually everything was open loop. Motorcycle EFI is also crippled in that it doesn't have a MAF, which cars do. So bikes are assuming a lot more than cars are. We should stop. He doesn't get it.
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Mar 26, 2013 21:54
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Nerobro posted:Motorcycle EFI is also crippled in that it doesn't have a MAF, which cars do. So bikes are assuming a lot more than cars are. Early BMW Ks have MAFs, I think. But it basically runs a sideways car engine so that stands to reason. Don't Honda cars with the PGM-FI run a TPS/RPM map as their primary fueling lookup? I don't think I've seen a Honda with a MAF. They don't seem all that crippled (unless ricer 4banger lol). Oh... wiki suggests the PGM-FI has its origins on the turbo CX models, cool! I'm just getting in to irrelevant trivia territory at this point though, so ignore me.
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Mar 26, 2013 22:42
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Nerobro posted:Feedback doesn't matter. When you're in the "power" map of efi, it's ignoring it's narrow-band o2 sensor anyway. In some implementations it's even ignoring the startup MAP reading. My sv650 has a MAP and no 02 sensor. It is a 2003, and in 04 they got a cat and an o2 sensor. It's also worth noting that the 02 sensor is used to adjust fuel trim, which is a semi-permanent mixture adjustment which isn't updated in real time and can easily compensate for changes in altitude, engine wear and so on. ^^^^PGM-fi honda's have a MAP sensor, you can't really run a car on TPS/RPM alone unless it's something very exotic (BMW M3csl comes to mind) or a dyno-tuned car with the ecu tuned specifically for that engine alone (which the BMW is). There is so much variation between two 'identical' engines coming out of the factory, and so many different driving conditions, that it's basically impossible to mass-produce cars that don't have some sort of air metering system. Slavvy fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Mar 26, 2013 |
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Mar 26, 2013 22:59
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clutchpuck posted:Early BMW Ks have MAFs, I think.
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Mar 27, 2013 00:32
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Z3n posted:I'd try bumping to 165 at least - also, do you have old/lovely gas in there? Because drat that poo poo will make pings all day long. It's been a year since I did the mechanical work so the gas had turned to varnish in the carbs. I tore the whole system down and cleaned it and am running fresh gas. Hopefully it doesn't rain too much this weekend and I can install the 165s and go from there. Battery question: My 998 has been sitting around for almost as long (with no gas) and the battery is defying any and all attempts to revive it. Its a 2-3 year old sealed lead acid one. I've tried small "smart" chargers like the C-tek and a big wheeled transformer "dumb" charger and can't get it to hold enough of a charge to even power my battery tester. The dumb charger has a timer so I can't just leave it on overnight and the smart charger doesn't think I have attached a battery. I've heard that you can parallel a good battery to the bad one and charge it to fool some of the smart chargers but the transformer charger just dumps current into the battery and shouldn't be affected by this trick I think. I sent my previous 998 battery off to the hazardous waste afterlife just a couple of weeks ago so I don't exactly have one of the same size. Can I use a slightly larger motorcycle battery for this trick?
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Mar 27, 2013 03:42
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Slavvy posted:^^^^PGM-fi honda's have a MAP sensor, you can't really run a car on TPS/RPM alone unless it's something very exotic (BMW M3csl comes to mind) or a dyno-tuned car with the ecu tuned specifically for that engine alone (which the BMW is).
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Mar 27, 2013 04:26
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Bruinator posted:It's been a year since I did the mechanical work so the gas had turned to varnish in the carbs. I tore the whole system down and cleaned it and am running fresh gas. Hopefully it doesn't rain too much this weekend and I can install the 165s and go from there. It'd probably work but I'd just buy a new AGM type battery and be done with it.
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Mar 27, 2013 04:45
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BlackMK4 posted:The E46 M3 CSL still runs a a MAP sensor Oh ok, shows what I know!
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Mar 27, 2013 05:15
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Slavvy posted:Oh ok, shows what I know! I only know because I had access to an M3 with the CSL intake for a while. Dat intake noise.
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Mar 27, 2013 05:30
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