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Octy posted:To make it easier I'll list the bands I tried and didn't like, much to my disappointment: Which Genesis do you not like? If you're not already aware there are two Genesiseseseseses. The Peter Gabriel Genesis is the real Genesis. This covers the genesis of Genesis up to The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. I think their best piece from this time is Selling England by the Pound. If you heard this and still don't like them, then you don't like Genesis full stop. But if you're referring to the Phill Collins Genesis, then please do continue not liking them but for godssakes listen to the real Genesis as well. Of course if you already listened to both then this entire post was a complete waste of time and I am so sorry. It's nonetheless interesting that you don't like them. I think they're pretty pure prog, not pure as snow but pretty shiny. Maybe pure as a stainless steel knife with a few thumbprints on it. Selling England by the Pound, though. If you managed to miss that (and I don't for a second believe you did), stop missing it.
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Mar 30, 2013 18:14
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Nobody Interesting posted:Which Genesis do you not like? If you're not already aware there are two Genesiseseseseses. The Peter Gabriel Genesis is the real Genesis. This covers the genesis of Genesis up to The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. I think their best piece from this time is Selling England by the Pound. If you heard this and still don't like them, then you don't like Genesis full stop. I really wish people would stop saying this. Genesis was not Peter Gabriel, and they did not stop making interesting music as soon as he left. A Trick of the Tail and Wind & the Wuthering compare favorably to the best Gabriel-era material, and ...And Then There Were Three, Duke, and Abacab each have at least a couple of great tracks (I can't speak for their post-Abacab material, as I still haven't heard any of those albums in their entirety). I also still think side two of Selling England is really weak—by classic-era Genesis standards, anyway. Allen Wren posted:That's pretty fair. You need to listen to Absent Lovers now now now. It's easily the best release from the '80s band, the best King Crimson live album, and maybe their best album altogether outside of the '73-'74 stuff. Absolutely essential listening. Rollersnake fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Mar 30, 2013 |
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Mar 30, 2013 18:58
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Rollersnake posted:I really wish people would stop saying this. Genesis was not Peter Gabriel, and they did not stop making interesting music as soon as he left. A Trick of the Tail and Wind & the Wuthering compare favorably to the best Gabriel-era material, and ...And Then There Were Three, Duke, and Abacab each have at least a couple of great tracks (I can't speak for their post-Abacab material, as I still haven't heard any of those albums in their entirety). Well do you at least see why we might say there are two distinct versions of Genesis? Phil Collins's Genesis is just too poppy to be real prog. You know, like Pink Floyd after Roger Waters. At the very least, Gabriel Genesis is the most representative of the two. I can appreciate some Collins Genesis, but it becomes more and more unproglike with each album.
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Mar 30, 2013 19:45
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Nobody Interesting posted:Well do you at least see why we might say there are two distinct versions of Genesis? Phil Collins's Genesis is just too poppy to be real prog. You know, like Pink Floyd after Roger Waters. I think it's only knowing now what Genesis would become that we characterize Phil Collins's Genesis as a pop band. A Trick of the Tail and Wind & the Wuthering are both very much progressive rock. Then there's a shift toward shorter and poppier songs with ...And Then There Were Three, and by Duke there was more pop than prog, though it's still very progressive rock-tinged, and there are a few tracks you could describe as straight-up prog rock. Also people seem to forget that there's a fair bit of Peter Gabriel-era Genesis you could honestly describe as poppy. Also, regarding Pink Floyd—you have to admit from Dark Side of the Moon onward they were as close to mainstream as progressive rock can get. The problem with post-Waters Pink Floyd isn't that they went more pop (which they did, a little bit anyway), but that the songwriting just wasn't nearly as good. Rollersnake fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Mar 30, 2013 |
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Mar 30, 2013 20:02
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Genesis has always been a very melodic band. As it turns out, that's a handy feature to have in both prog and pop. I agree that they didn't turn into a pop band immediately after Gabriel left, A Trick of the Tail is a prog album through-and-through. Duke and Abacab are much less prog, but they still have a lot of the eccentricities that were prevalent during the Gabriel era.
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Mar 30, 2013 20:06
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Rollersnake posted:Also, regarding Pink Floyd—you have to admit from Dark Side of the Moon onward they were as close to mainstream as progressive rock can get. The problem with post-Waters Pink Floyd isn't that they went more pop (which they did, a little bit anyway), but that the songwriting just wasn't nearly as good. Oh I hear you. But then let's not start saying that mainstream is bad. I mean later Pink Floyd is enjoyable. In the case of Animals it's loving...nnf... don't try to tell me Dogs is anything but incredible. Wish You Were Here is obviously going for a single but it makes for great listening and of course The Wall is fantastic - okay it's not really prog but... We can let it slide for a number of reasons. We'll just forget The Final Cut ever happened. And then there's what I call Blue Floyd that follows (hurr durr we prog academics now). Other than Polly Samson wtf is really happening here? It wasn't all bad though, I can find a lot of time for High Hopes and Sorrow. Dogs of War can kiss my sweaty butt, though.
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Mar 30, 2013 20:51
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Octy posted:Thanks for that recommendation. Not sure how I feel about the last two or three tracks, but the opening is amazing. You don't know how you feel about Cygnus X-1? That's the most incredible song on the album!
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Mar 30, 2013 23:06
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Nobody Interesting posted:Which Genesis do you not like? If you're not already aware there are two Genesiseseseseses. The Peter Gabriel Genesis is the real Genesis. This covers the genesis of Genesis up to The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. I think their best piece from this time is Selling England by the Pound. If you heard this and still don't like them, then you don't like Genesis full stop. I honestly cannot remember since this was in the distant time of my youth. I think I was going through my stage of being a prog purist and I thought they were too poppy compared to King Crimson. Granted, a lot of the prog I listen to now like Caravan and Camel is pretty poppy but that must have come afterwards when I stopped being a snob. :P And yes, Absent Lovers is easily the best KC live album.
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Mar 30, 2013 23:08
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Octy posted:I honestly cannot remember since this was in the distant time of my youth. I think I was going through my stage of being a prog purist and I thought they were too poppy compared to King Crimson. Granted, a lot of the prog I listen to now like Caravan and Camel is pretty poppy but that must have come afterwards when I stopped being a snob. :P Well do make sure to check out Selling English by the Pound at the very least. It's in some ways comparable to King Crimson but really Genesis do bring their own brand of prog to the table. Really, though, I see no reason to hate at least that album if you get on with King Crimson.
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Mar 30, 2013 23:59
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My 2¢---gently caress the haters, Fading Lights is great, especially the extended bridge.
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Mar 30, 2013 23:59
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I wanted to ask you guys something since theres alot of crimson talk going on- there was some side project/jamming between some king crimson guys I saw a video of, I think 2 of them had chapman sticks and alot of this weird effect that sounded like desert music from mario 3. I've tried searching Tony Levin, but really can't seem to find it, does anybody know what that might be called?
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Mar 31, 2013 01:47
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If you find the video I may be able to help you out.
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Mar 31, 2013 02:14
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sit man i found it! stickmen must've been what i was thinking of, can't find the song with the awesome mario 3 effects though, dammit [edit] aha i found the real deal, it was the Trey Gunn band song "Kuma" wtf these aren't even chapman sticks Renreeja fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Mar 31, 2013 |
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Mar 31, 2013 02:49
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There's technically at least 3 Genesises anyway if you're going to be picky. And you know who else went a bit poppy after Peter Gabriel left Genesis? Peter Gabriel. The only truly bad Genesis album is the self-titled one. (Yes I even like a couple of tracks on ...Calling All Stations..., sue me)
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Mar 31, 2013 15:13
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Saw Thrakattak at a used store today. I picked it up just to make my collection a bit more complete. It's pretty funky. I also have Absent Lovers ordered, too.
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Apr 2, 2013 00:28
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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Tsaedje posted:There's technically at least 3 Genesises anyway if you're going to be picky. And you know who else went a bit poppy after Peter Gabriel left Genesis? Peter Gabriel. I talked to Larry Fast about 'So'. In short, PG almost became HUGE with the video for Shock the Monkey via MTV etc. Apparently the thinking was 'so you guys want pop, I'll give you pop', and you got So. Mind you to me songs like Big Time are sarcastic comments about fame, etc. After So, he went back to making music he wanted to, I think. ^^^ Absent Lovers is the best live album I have ever heard. The band was insanely tight.
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Apr 2, 2013 03:27
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Rust Martialis posted:^^^ Absent Lovers is the best live album I have ever heard. The band was insanely tight. Yeah, I've heard it, and have it on my computer. It was actually the first KC I ever really listened to. I ripped it from a guy I knew from work years and years ago. I remember really loving Thela Hun Ginjeet. I haven't really listened to it in a long time, though. I think I gave it a listen a bit after I got the remaster for Discipline, and I remember liking some of the live versions much better than the sort of stale, clinical studio versions. We'll see what I think again when I get it and listen on CD. Also forgot to mention I own the ProjeKct box set. That's also pretty interesting, and kind of hit or miss much like Thrakattak. Speaking of KC, anyone hear anything yet about the Beat or Three of a Perfect Pair remasters? I really got into KC through those remasters, and I'd love to continue the collection. What's taking so long!?
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Apr 2, 2013 03:52
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I divide Genesis up into two halves, and no, it's not Gabriel era vs. Collins era. The dividing line for me (subtle reference if anyone caught it) is when Hackett left the band in 1977. Everything up to that point was pure Progressive Rock (with the exception of maybe their first album which was basically Baroque Pop with some proto prog mixed in). Most of it was of the symphonic brand, but you also had some Gothic, Ambient, Folk, Metal, Jam Rock, Jazz and World Music moments. Everything after that point is a mixture of prog rock and 80s pop with a sprinkling of some Jam rock, World Music, Jazz and Metal (but very safe and watered down in comparison to their earlier forays experimenting with those styles). They were pretty much the definition of neo-prog in the early 80s and kind of set the standard for that neo progressive pop sound that was later adopted by their peers. Just listen to other prog rock bands in the 80s, they all had similar sounds. For example Asia, 80s and 90s Yes, 80s and 90s Pink Floyd, and even 80s King Crimson all had similar neo progressive pop influences similar to Genesis (King Crimson went in a more aggressive Metal direction in the 90s but definitely were neo prog in the 80s). A lot of that 80s style pop influence came from non-prog rock bands and more from new wave and post-disco pop acts like The Talking Heads, Michael Jackson and Prince. But Genesis was the first progressive rock band to really have success with that neo prog/80s pop sound. In fact they were much more successful in the 80s than they were in the 70s, so they often get labeled as sellouts. But most of their prog rock peers also adopted a similar neo-progressive/80s pop sound in an attempt to evolve with the times. They just weren't as successful as Genesis. Gianthogweed fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Apr 2, 2013 |
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Apr 2, 2013 03:56
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^^^ There's some proggy stuff post-Wind and Wuthering but I don't think you can seperate Trick of the Tail from the Gabriel-era stuff. It's very much similar and mostly just as good!!
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Apr 2, 2013 05:11
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Absent Lovers got here in the mail, and yeah I had forgot just how much rear end this kicked. It definitely feels like this is the real way of listening to this era Crimson. My live KC journey continues. What would you guys recommend picking up next? I have The Great Deceiver, Thrakattak, Absent Lovers, and the ProjeKcts box set right now. RDreamer fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Apr 8, 2013 |
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Apr 8, 2013 23:13
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Gianthogweed posted:I divide Genesis up into two halves, and no, it's not Gabriel era vs. Collins era. The dividing line for me (subtle reference if anyone caught it) is when Hackett left the band in 1977. I don't know, I kind of like some of the songs on '...And Then There Were Three...' Ok, I kind of like one song on '...And Then There Were Three...' (Deep in the Motherlode) The whole album still has a pretty proggy sound to it, even if there is an obvious shift in song structure. Also I don't really think can include King Crimson in that 80's pop prog thing, there is definitly an '80's King Crimson' sound, but we aren't exactly talking about 'Owner of a Lonely Heart' here. Sears Poncho fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Apr 9, 2013 |
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Apr 9, 2013 02:17
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So I just checked out Cathedral's new(er) album, "The Bridge." It's pretty cool, there's some great guitar work on it and the bass and drums are well recorded and really tight. I don't know if the songs are as good as in "Stained Glass Stories," but they're still very interesting to listen to. I still can't get over their discography, though: Stained Glass Stories (1978), The Bridge (2007). Two albums, thirty years apart. Even their "new" album was six years ago and they don't seem like they're in a hurry to do another. I also got "English Electric, pt 1" by Big Big Train and I thought it was just kinda mehhhh. People have said that they have a big Genesis influence going on, and I can hear that, but to me they sound quite a bit more like Marillion - who I also can't seem to get into. Maybe I just need to listen to it more, but that's what I said about "Misplaced Childhood" and it still doesn't really seem like my cup of tea. I don't mind when prog is more pop-oriented but both of these bands seem kind of bland to me. Then again, maybe I should check out more than just one album from each.
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Apr 9, 2013 03:15
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I bought 3 Marillion albums a while back hoping I'd dig it. I listened to Misplaced Childhood once, didn't like it so never listened to the other two. I might do that tonight if I can be bothered. 
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Apr 9, 2013 04:42
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Misplaced Childhood is awful, and had that been my first exposure to Marillion, I probably wouldn't have given them a second shot. Seriously, it's poo poo, and I have no idea why it's considered a good progressive rock album, or even a good Marillion album. I've said it before, but if there are any Marillion albums that could rightfully be called masterpieces, it's Marbles (the 2-disc version) and Brave. Clutching at Straws, Seasons End, and Afraid of Sunlight are mostly great as well. Also, the live album Size Matters has an excellent setlist that's a good overview of their whole career (you even get the "classic" songs from Misplaced Childhood), but unfortunately they don't play anything from Brave on that. Rollersnake fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Apr 9, 2013 |
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Apr 9, 2013 06:17
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I listened to Moving Pictures and I decided I don't really like Rush very much. So I go "well, I guess I should listen to some of their 'bad' material to be sure." Turns out I really like Caress of Steel. Very strange. In other news I was listening to Opeth's Deliverance on spotify and realized that I bought it new in a record store after hearing it on the radio. 
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Apr 9, 2013 12:02
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I never really "got" Deliverance, but after hearing the title track live I am a convert. God that was a good night 
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Apr 9, 2013 12:21
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LordPants posted:I listened to Moving Pictures and I decided I don't really like Rush very much. So I go "well, I guess I should listen to some of their 'bad' material to be sure." Rush has a bunch of different "stages," so if you don't like one of their albums, there's a good chance you might like something else by them. It's a little like finding out where to start with Frank Zappa. So I guess I'll add some more Marillion albums to my wishlist, I could certainly stand to give them a chance. Maybe I'll look into "Marbles" first.
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Apr 9, 2013 12:36
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I think Marillion with Steve Hogarth at the helm is actually a really cool band. I don't think you can go wrong with any of their, say, post-1994 output. Even the duds (maybe Radiation or This Strange Engine) at least have a few good songs. Although I honestly haven't listened to stange engine in forever, it could be total garbage. Misplaced Childhood is an amazingly terrible album, though. Go back and listen to it again at some point, just for kitch value. Then imagine the strange scenarios in foreign countries you could find yourself in with Kayleigh on softly in the background. And shudder.
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Apr 9, 2013 13:22
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The two I got beside Misplaced Childhood are Fugazi and Script For A Jester's Tear. Too busy listening to the Beatles at the moment but I will give them a spin tomorrow morning I think.
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Apr 9, 2013 13:41
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BigFactory posted:I think Marillion with Steve Hogarth at the helm is actually a really cool band. I don't think you can go wrong with any of their, say, post-1994 output. Even the duds (maybe Radiation or This Strange Engine) at least have a few good songs. Although I honestly haven't listened to stange engine in forever, it could be total garbage. This Strange Engine at least has the title track and Estonia. Radiation? eh, I quite like Now She'll Never Know and A Few Words For The Dead. I've been getting more into Happiness Is The Road: Essence lately, I have found it a bit of a slow burner. Brave is brilliant, I have been enjoying watching the live videos on Youtube. I need to see these guys live while i can, h is great! I have to say I have swung firmly away from the Fish era of late. Straws is still pretty good though. nthing about Steven Wilson though, Raven is phenomenal. I have also picked up on Phideaux recently, 'Waiting For The Axe To Fall' seems to tickle many of my prog spots.
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Apr 9, 2013 14:19
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Seventh Arrow posted:Rush has a bunch of different "stages," so if you don't like one of their albums, there's a good chance you might like something else by them. It's a little like finding out where to start with Frank Zappa. Starting with Zappa is Over-nite Sensation and Hot Rats, right? Or have times changed since that was the default start point.
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Apr 9, 2013 14:42
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david puddy posted:The two I got beside Misplaced Childhood are Fugazi and Script For A Jester's Tear. Too busy listening to the Beatles at the moment but I will give them a spin tomorrow morning I think. Uggghhhh, Fugazi is, like, the worst Marillion album ever. It's offensively bad. It and Holidays in Eden are the only Marillion albums I'd consider worse than Misplaced Childhood. Script, though, is pretty decent aside from some of Fish's verbal masturbation and their original drummer being boring as hell. Anonymouse Mook posted:Raven is phenomenal. Maybe this needs time to grow on me, but I really didn't care for it. I thought it felt like a bland pastiche of progressive influences—prog by numbers, basically. Rollersnake fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Apr 9, 2013 |
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Apr 9, 2013 14:46
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LordPants posted:Starting with Zappa is Over-nite Sensation and Hot Rats, right? Or have times changed since that was the default start point. There isn't really a perfect starting place with Zappa, but as far as that goes Over-nite Sensation and Hot Rats are two pretty good choices. Other suggestions: Apostrophe (') has a lot of short 'poppy' songs, it's a lot like Over-nite Sensation but I'd say it's the better starter You Can't Do This On Stage Anymore Volume 1 is a sort of live 'greatest hits' from various periods. Live Zappa is really where it's at, and you'll start get a sense of how some of the different bands sound.
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Apr 9, 2013 18:01
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LordPants posted:Starting with Zappa is Over-nite Sensation and Hot Rats, right? Or have times changed since that was the default start point.
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Apr 9, 2013 18:16
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LordPants posted:Starting with Zappa is Over-nite Sensation and Hot Rats, right? Or have times changed since that was the default start point. Believe it or not, my first Zappa album was "Ship Arriving Too Late To Save A Drowning Witch." It was so off the wall, exactly what I was looking for. I then got "Apostrophe," which I loved even more and I borrowed "Zappa In New York" from a guitar teacher. So I guess that was a very atypical route, but it sure made me a Zappa fan. Seventies-era Zappa very evenly straddles the line between prog and fusion, though. He has just enough improvisation to be fusion, but just enough arranging and high-minded concepts to be prog.
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Apr 9, 2013 18:44
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My first two Zappa albums (bought at the same time, with no guidance - essentially random picks out of the Zappa rack) were 'Filmore '71' and 'Joe's Garage' I was weirded the gently caress out, but also hooked right there.
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Apr 9, 2013 18:49
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Mine was Sheik Yerbouti. I liked just enough of it to become a fan but nowadays find the man quite insufferable. I was thinking about getting into some Marillion. I got Script for cheap and I cannot get past how much Fish sounds like Peter Gabriel. It really distracts from the music.
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Apr 9, 2013 21:14
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Yeah, for someone approaching Zappa from a progressive rock/fusion background, I'd recommend One Size Fits All as a starting point, but Hot Rats is a really good choice too. Or Sheik Yerbouti for a good balance of humor and interesting music, plus there's Adrian Belew. Edit: Even though he definitely upped the crudeness with Sheik Yerbouti, you can find Zappa at his most insufferable several albums later on The Man from Utopia. Stale humor, stupid politics (the anti-union anthem Stick Together), improvised songs that go nowhere, and more doo-wop. It's practically a compilation album of all of Zappa's worst excesses. (Though there are a couple of good instrumentals, at least.) Rollersnake fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Apr 9, 2013 |
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Apr 9, 2013 21:19
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I've always meant to check out Man From Utopia due to Steve Vai being on it, but I guess I can pass. Besides, Vai's real gem is "Flex-Able." The songs are too short to be prog, but I love the whole "weirdo in his budget basement studio" vibe from that album.
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Apr 9, 2013 21:47
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Hearing "Magdalena" (not even his first song about statutory rape by the way), got a little less "ironic" and more "disgusting" when you factor in the fact that one of Zappa's former bandmates is a registered sex offender, and another is currently serving 25 years for child molestation.
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Apr 9, 2013 22:11
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