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Holy poo poo. I let the small UFO go on month 1, let the medium show up. Fire off one of my Interceptors, he doesn't shoot down the UFO, not a problem, I have a second one. Immediately send off the second one... and before I can engage the UFO, it blows up my satellite while my Interceptor was en route from China (?) to Japan. loving hell, game.
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Apr 17, 2013 04:49
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Hammy posted:On one of my first classic/ironman playthroughs I hit the rooftop cafe for my first terror mission and it turned out to be my moment of greatest glory because for whatever reason the chryssalids never moved from the rooftop part and I was able to save all but 3 of the hostages by circling the perimeter of the building. The first time I got that on my first playthrough was the first time I learned how a shotgun assault with close quarters specialist was basically an anti-Chryssalid device. Come closer, Chryssalids, just what you think I don't want.  Luckily this time around I got it after Archangel armor so I could just jet my sniper up in midair and play Duck Hunt.
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Apr 17, 2013 04:50
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I dont get the rooftop love. Its 90% half cover, Chris can jump up or down and hug your face, as can any alien really.
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Apr 17, 2013 05:01
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Nephilm posted:Diminishing returns + Marathon is pretty brutal. He'll have to learn to build workshops. Marathon and war weariness is a nasty combo. Diminishing returns + results driven is awful, reduce panic with sat-spam to keep funding. All four? If someone told me they beat I/I with all of them on, I'd want video proof.
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Apr 17, 2013 05:07
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dud root posted:I dont get the rooftop love. Its 90% half cover, Chris can jump up or down and hug your face, as can any alien really. beaglerush talks about it a little in the first of his new videos. Its still not for trading shots, but you get hit bonuses, concealment, which is huge, and the ability to drop straight off the sides for easy flanks. Also, dropping off the side of a building is just one "tile" of movement, so it won't trigger overwatch. All of this means that you're much more likely to kill an entire squad before they can fire at all, and have a safe concealed area to retreat to if you can't.
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Apr 17, 2013 05:35
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animatorZed posted:beaglerush talks about it a little in the first of his new videos. Plus, the elevation bonus and a scope should give even rookies decent percentages, at least in the early few missions.
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Apr 17, 2013 06:34
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Edmond Dantes posted:Bloody hell, I hate that map. I found out today that there's actually another variation of that same map that's used for Alien Terror missions, where everything is on fire. It is--unbelievably--even worse than the Flooded version.
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Apr 17, 2013 08:11
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Zoran posted:Hahahahaha, his reaction to that first death is priceless. That was pretty hosed up though. Unactivated aliens in overwatch :-S
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Apr 17, 2013 10:42
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Edmond Dantes posted:Bloody hell, I hate that map. That map never gave me trouble because as per my experience playing other strategy games, I prefer to keep my units constantly on the move as a coordinated group covering one another rather than entrench them. (Or if they do entrench, only briefly.) Really, the only thing that ever gave me trouble in this game was the overworld stuff - and that stuff is just down to working out a basic formula. (Which is mainly just about getting a crapton of satellites over everything.) Spacedad fucked around with this message at 11:38 on Apr 17, 2013 |
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Apr 17, 2013 11:35
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(which had already been answered anyway, thanks guys!)
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Beagle has a boatload more experience than me on Impossible, but sometimes I feel he's overly cautious. Often he wont take 50 or 65% shots because a miss would mean the solider is vulnerable, but hard cover is hard cover. Take the shot, and use overwatch just a bit more instead of hunker down. Anyway he's drat enjoyable to watch, and explains his actions thoroughly.
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Apr 17, 2013 12:08
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E: replying to Space Dad. What difficulty did you play? That map on I/I is hosed beyond belief for an early game squad. Clown car spawns, long, clear lines of sight, piss all hard cover. It's RNG the game, even more so than X-Com usually is.
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Apr 17, 2013 12:08
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dud root posted:Beagle has a boatload more experience than me on Impossible, but sometimes I feel he's overly cautious. Often he wont take 50 or 65% shots because a miss would mean the solider is vulnerable, but hard cover is hard cover. Take the shot, and use overwatch just a bit more instead of hunker down. That's because he exclusively plays Ironman Impossible. You get caution hammered into you in a hurry. It also shows understanding of odds because taking 50% odd shots because you're in hard cover is a terrible idea (you only have 40% defense in hard cover without hunkering down). That mission isn't so bad later on when you have, as Beagle puts it, bullshit equipment like Ghost Armor or Plasma weapons but if it's your VERY FIRST mission, it's the biggest bullshit indeed. ESPECIALLY if it bugs out like it did for Beagle, killing one of your soldiers through no fault of your own and you came in with only four in the first place (and a couple of them rookies).
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Apr 17, 2013 15:08
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I wonder if he knew about the AI abuse he could have done in that drive through map, or if he simply chose not to use it. He had all 3 aliens flanked while his guys were in cover, and he could have just kept overwatching the flanker, and moved his other guys up to get flanking shots. That we he wouldn't have lost the one rookie, and could have potentially had another useful unit for the flooded map.
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Apr 17, 2013 16:34
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SeaTard posted:I wonder if he knew about the AI abuse he could have done in that drive through map, or if he simply chose not to use it. He had all 3 aliens flanked while his guys were in cover, and he could have just kept overwatching the flanker, and moved his other guys up to get flanking shots. That we he wouldn't have lost the one rookie, and could have potentially had another useful unit for the flooded map. IIRC overwatch doesn't prevent them from still firing, only moving from position and those aliens didn't budge at all during that firefight.
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Apr 17, 2013 16:36
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quote:Roof in SP Furthermore, even if you take over a roof, if there is a spawn spot a patrol might just decide to move there. When that happens, as often as not they will appear by climbing over a roof edge and taking over whatever defensive positions are available. You now have either a scramble to kill all of them in one turn, or you have to get off the roof and leave aliens on it (very bad). Finally, in the game of "see no evil" that is avoiding spawn triggers when you're not ready for them, roofs are dangerous. If a spawn is sitting on a roof they're 100% safe because you can't see them without going up there. And roofs have long sight lines, easily spotting other spawns. On the Observatory map, the roof is the *last* place I clean out. I learned by experience that if I go up there early I will trigger the spawn that's invariably in the 2nd floor room plus another group halfway across the map who will make my life hell. I feel at least some of the props for roofs has come over from MP, where they are a giant tactical advantage -- way more so than in SP. ChronoReverse posted:That's because he exclusively plays Ironman Impossible. You get caution hammered into you in a hurry. It also shows understanding of odds because taking 50% odd shots because you're in hard cover is a terrible idea (you only have 40% defense in hard cover without hunkering down). We all link him because his gameplay is solid for C/I and I/I, but he's not the ultimate xcom master. Dude still thinks Asia is better than Africa. He's entertaining though, even with a vid that's not edited like the old series. I saw another I/I player at some point that I thought was tactically better, but completely unwatchable.
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Apr 17, 2013 16:39
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Tae posted:IIRC overwatch doesn't prevent them from still firing, only moving from position and those aliens didn't budge at all during that firefight. There is a bug (?) where if you overwatch a flanked alien, they will generally just sit there and do nothing.
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Apr 17, 2013 16:39
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revtoiletduck posted:There is a bug (?) where if you overwatch a flanked alien, they will generally just sit there and do nothing. Generally is a key word. Every once and a while it seems to gently caress up. I still haven't figured out why.
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Apr 17, 2013 16:45
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Tae posted:IIRC overwatch doesn't prevent them from still firing, only moving from position and those aliens didn't budge at all during that firefight. The bug happens because an alien that is being flanked pretty much ONLY wants to move out of the flanked position, but the alien is not allowed to move if it knows it is being overwatched. It could be fixed if the AI was made to be able to accept when it is in a bad position with no way out and just calculate what it can do to minimize losses/maximize damage inflicted (Shoot a guy whose death would allow at least one more alien to survive? Shoot the guy with the highest chance of killing you on their turn? Shoot the guy who you have the highest chance of being able to kill before getting killed yourself?)
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Apr 17, 2013 16:51
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Deuce posted:Generally is a key word. Every once and a while it seems to gently caress up. I still haven't figured out why. From what I understand, they will shoot if you leave anyone out of cover or flanked.
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Apr 17, 2013 16:59
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Klyith posted:Eh, he also has a long list of dudes with epitaphs that read "Beagle tried to get too cute with some aliens and I died." The guy he lost in the first mission was a good example, and it could easily have been much worse. While that remark about Beagle is true that has little to do with the point being made in that taking 50% shots is a bad idea unless you have no other choice. You don't get to reroll after all. The thing about Beagle's videos is that it's realistic because he screws up every once in while. I don't think anyone here could claim to have never forgotten any little detail while going through an I/I run. In this case, he forgot his cover is destructible. Was he getting cute with the trying to get more flanks bit at the end of the first video? Perhaps you could make a case for it. But suppose he missed the 65% shot he didn't take or failed to kill the alien with that shot, he'd be in just a bad position because the alien now has +40% chance to hit that soldier because he wasn't hunkered down. Nevermind the cover getting destroyed by the first shot and then the soldier killed by the second, he had a high chance of SIMPLY DYING. It's not being cute to try taking a 5% chance of getting hit (but not killed) to prepare 2x 65% hits. In fact, without the benefits of reloading, going for a 65% shot where you don't even have 100% chance of killing the alien IF you hit it AND giving up 40% defense as well critical immunity when you only have 4HP is crazy unless you had no other choice. ChronoReverse fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Apr 17, 2013 |
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Apr 17, 2013 17:09
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Klyith posted:We all link him because his gameplay is solid for C/I and I/I, but he's not the ultimate xcom master. Dude still thinks Asia is better than Africa. He's entertaining though, even with a vid that's not edited like the old series. I saw another I/I player at some point that I thought was tactically better, but completely unwatchable. I actually buy into the Asia start on Impossible since getting another squad member or two out sooner than later is very helpful. I'm in month 3 and money is no longer the bottleneck on anything I want to produce, so I doubt Africa would help as much. On that second beagle video, I was a little confused why he didn't take a shot at the mind-merging alien with 1 hp, but I guess it wouldn't have been a flank? He was pretty screwed at that point anyway.
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Apr 17, 2013 17:15
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K. Farb posted:I actually buy into the Asia start on Impossible since getting another squad member or two out sooner than later is very helpful. I'm in month 3 and money is no longer the bottleneck on anything I want to produce, so I doubt Africa would help as much. He's also better off in taking Asia for the Second Wave options he's selected because he can't do the Satellite Rush thing everyone likes. Africa is the best start but that's only because you can Satellite Rush normally. On I/I that's already not a 100% given and with the Second Wave settings Beagle has, it's not an option at all. Although it really doesn't matter because I don't think you can win with the combination of settings he's chosen even if he aced every mission.
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Apr 17, 2013 17:19
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ChronoReverse posted:Although it really doesn't matter because I don't think you can win with the combination of settings he's chosen even if he aced every mission. Yeah, Results Driven + satellites starting at $420 guarantees there's no way to win on impossible, probably on classic either.
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Apr 17, 2013 17:27
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ChronoReverse posted:While that remark about Beagle is true that has little to do with the point being made in that taking 50% shots is a bad idea unless you have no other choice. You don't get to reroll after all. I would've taken the first shot, but yeah; his real crime was forgetting about destructible cover (despite almost getting hosed by it on the truck earlier on in the same mission). The crit immunity that hunker down gives you is arguably more important than the defense bonus because it prevents you from getting 1-shot. We've all forgotten about destructible cover from time to time. Really, the only things I would've done differently from him: 1.) I would've gone after the mind-merger in the second pack with grenades instead of the 1 stray guy who needed his cover blown. That would've saved me 1 grenade for the final pack (but also put 1 soldier at risk of getting killed with the straggler's turn) 2.) Taken the flank shot on the first turn on the third pack Both his moves were defensible. The first few missions of I/I are by far harder than anything else. If you can get out of month 1, you're probably going to win.
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Apr 17, 2013 17:29
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Here's the flank / overwatch bug from the AI in rough approximation that I've observed: 1. If you have a flank / exposed target available, take the shot 2. If you are on overwatch, do not move. Fire if you are not being suppressed and certain conditions make it a safe bet. You may use abilities if available. 3. If you are being flanked, move away. Withhold actions until not being flanked (this may be implemented similar to "reserved" TUs from the first X-COM and would explain nothing happening at all despite actions being available). 2 and 3 conflict when you flank and overwatch the unit because movement choice is higher weight but not high enough to override 1. 1 is a higher priority and will override the others. Whether you take a shot is pretty crude and not a full picture from that logic though - this is the biggest mystery for me at present (grenades happen with multiple targets in range and such). 3 also explains aliens that will move out and then move back in certain situations (to avoid ending the turn flanked). There is evidence that Sectoids and Mutons hunker down but it's so rare I think it hardly matters. I do not think the AI has conditions for weighing some of the rock and hard place calculations that we make like sacrificing one soldier for another or sprinting when under overwatch. I don't think it understands damage calculations really either - it'll take a shot at a soldier even though there's no way it'll do the job. It clearly understands cornering tactics though, that's for sure.
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Apr 17, 2013 17:30
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Vengarr posted:I found out today that there's actually another variation of that same map that's used for Alien Terror missions, where everything is on fire. It is--unbelievably--even worse than the Flooded version.
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Apr 17, 2013 17:50
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ChronoReverse posted:He's also better off in taking Asia for the Second Wave options he's selected because he can't do the Satellite Rush thing everyone likes. Africa is the best start but that's only because you can Satellite Rush normally. On I/I that's already not a 100% given and with the Second Wave settings Beagle has, it's not an option at all. Although it really doesn't matter because I don't think you can win with the combination of settings he's chosen even if he aced every mission. I'd actually like to try just playing the macro game with these settings, and just cheating through missions for the best results. Just to see how far you can get.
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Apr 17, 2013 18:10
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Vengarr posted:I found out today that there's actually another variation of that same map that's used for Alien Terror missions, where everything is on fire. It is--unbelievably--even worse than the Flooded version. Toplowtech posted:It's basicly the same but without the rain and with ALL the vehicles blown up and giving only half-cover: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-riCfZWoRug&t=282s Yeah, that's the one I got ridiculously lucky with my ITZ sniper and basically murdered everything in a single turn (well, everything my ammo clip let me) but, then again, I was playing on normal and with mid-to-high gear; last time I played that map on classic I got probed by sectoids.  /edit: Holy poo poo, talk about Sectopod hell:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU4XTUd1i7w Edmond Dantes fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Apr 17, 2013 |
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Apr 17, 2013 18:26
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Edmond Dantes posted:/edit: Holy poo poo, talk about Sectopod hell: The first time I encountered triple sectopods was on that same map but in the upstairs loft, preventing me from getting the doom rocket he shot off. I'd be lying if I said that impossible doing stuff like that didn't make it really fun however.
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Apr 17, 2013 19:14
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K. Farb posted:I actually buy into the Asia start on Impossible since getting another squad member or two out sooner than later is very helpful. I'm in month 3 and money is no longer the bottleneck on anything I want to produce, so I doubt Africa would help as much. But whatever, starting continent min-maxing is dull: the best bonuses are also the most boring and have the least impact on gameplay or strategy. Asia, Europe, and SA are all more interesting because presumably you are tailoring your plan to take advantage of something besides money. ChronoReverse posted:Was he getting cute with the trying to get more flanks bit at the end of the first video? Perhaps you could make a case for it. But suppose he missed the 65% shot he didn't take or failed to kill the alien with that shot, he'd be in just a bad position because the alien now has +40% chance to hit that soldier because he wasn't hunkered down. Nevermind the cover getting destroyed by the first shot and then the soldier killed by the second, he had a high chance of SIMPLY DYING. It's not being cute to try taking a 5% chance of getting hit (but not killed) to prepare 2x 65% hits. * a 65% flank shot at the mind melder, from full cover * a 65% flank shot at the ones behind the car, from full cover * two 70+% regular shots at the ones behind the car, from rooftop half-cover Those are all good odds shots. The expected value should be 2 out of 3 kills. They're not 100% shots and they're not absolutely safe, but it's a month 1 mission and you've used all your grenades. Them's the breaks. On I/I coming out of those rookie missions with zero casualties is a bit unrealistic. My one criticism of Beagle's play is that tendency to slow-roll a group, looking for maximum safety. It's a good principle but in practice taking several extra turns to set up a "perfect" strike is extra turns for bad poo poo to happen. And when that bad poo poo does happen, it's easy to say it was unforeseeable, which it generally is. You can't know that your cover will be destroyed or a patrol will flank you, so your strategy was not to blame. The failure isn't about predicting the unpredictable, it's in waiting 4 turns for the unpredictable to happen.
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Apr 17, 2013 19:19
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Klyith posted:Those are all good odds shots. The expected value should be 2 out of 3 kills. They're not 100% shots and they're not absolutely safe, but it's a month 1 mission and you've used all your grenades. Them's the breaks. On I/I coming out of those rookie missions with zero casualties is a bit unrealistic. Hits, not kills. In fact, there's a good chance that even if you land all the hits, you'll only kill precisely one alien (not the mind melder). And now the aliens get to shoot twice at: *Either guy on the roof with only half cover (basically out in the open on Impossible, dead men walking) *The guy in full cover but no hunker down No, it's not realistic to come out with zero casualties, but it's plenty realistic to always opt for a better chance. In fact, if his assumption that his cover was indestructible were true, his choice in this particular case are unambiguously better, it would have been a TERRIBLE choice to take the shot. So the problem is really just choosing cover. In any case, this is about maximizing a particular run's chance at success. I play more aggressive because I'm willing to accept losing entirely. But if I had a gun to my head to beat the campaign, I certainly would pick the highest percentage option. I'd just remember which cover is destructible. ChronoReverse fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Apr 17, 2013 |
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Apr 17, 2013 19:29
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ChronoReverse posted:Hits, not kills. In fact, there's a good chance that even if you land all the hits, you'll only kill precisely one alien (not the mind melder). Having run the numbers the shot on the melder was 47.84% chance of killing the melder. From, .65*(1 - (.66*.40)) where the final two values are the odds of rolling nonlethal damage and the odds of not critting respectively. When you consider that a success there would have resulted in there being a lone (flanked)sectoid with the entire remaining xcom squad ready to fire on it, that hit would have safely ended the mission. In addition, since no one else was going to overwatch, the flank on the melder would have caused it to move away from the flank he was reinforcing. The shot WAS a risk, but the position he was in was probably the best he could reasonably expect to get. FoolyCharged fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Apr 17, 2013 |
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Apr 17, 2013 19:52
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FoolyCharged posted:Having run the numbers the shot on the melder was 47.84% chance of killing the melder. From, .65*(1 - (.66*.40)) where the final two values are the odds of rolling nonlethal damage and the odds of not critting respectively. When you consider that a success there would have resulted in there being a lone (flanked)sectoid with the entire remaining xcom squad ready to fire on it, that hit would have safely ended the mission. Oh I don't disagree that he should have taken the shot because he absolutely screwed up with the destructible cover thing. But if the cover _was_ indestructible, he'd be risking a 3x 5% chance of getting hit in exchange for 2x 65% flank shots. Although you're right about the aliens just moving. I can't remember what's in the corner of that map ATM so I don't know if the aliens would have just gotten another just as good position (which would a worse outcome since you've lost the flank as well). However, if they all moved out of being flanked, that would mean no overwatch and the possibility of just closing in. Well, someone's probably gonna die without luck. ChronoReverse fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Apr 17, 2013 |
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Apr 17, 2013 20:03
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K. Farb posted:I actually buy into the Asia start on Impossible since getting another squad member or two out sooner than later is very helpful. I'm in month 3 and money is no longer the bottleneck on anything I want to produce, so I doubt Africa would help as much. I've posted these  before and kinda posted them on his first video:Asia is a terrible starting continent. The starting funds difference between Asia and NA on Impossible is §110. How much money does the halved OTS costs save you for the critical early game upgrades? 62 bitcoins between Squad Size I & II. §125 if you add Wet Work to the equation. It's barely worth it if you, for some reason, decide rush an OTS on the first month, and if you're not doing that then why are you even starting there? The liquid cash available from NA would help your first month more than a minimal discount you're not even using. The best starting options are NA and Africa. NA because of all the money, and Africa because its bonus is good, initial funds adequate, and starting there means you'll hold down the bonus while being able to focus on other countries due to panic concerns. Europe and South America have a case with Marathon on, however, Asia is always lovely. If we go strictly early game, on standard Impossible settings NA is hands down the best start. When you bring Marathon into the equation, and in particular Beagle's settings, Europe and South America become viable because the discounts on Workshops and Labs (the latter which you'll most certainly be using on Marathon) scale, and research times become a factor significant enough to warrant getting instant interrogations as soon as you can (though, as beagle mentioned, it's only 2 satellites so you can grab it quickly if you manage to put them out). Asia has no justification because the things it provides discounts on don't scale upwards with any options.
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Apr 17, 2013 20:12
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I personally like the NA start because it's nice being able to just put up Satellite wherever I want and have the interceptors to defend them. However, I don't remember if Marathon also increased the OTS costs since it changes a whole bunch of things. I used the South America bonus when I tried Marathon. Not that it really matters, those Second Wave options are pretty insane. Someone should try the cheat codes to summon the super soldiers and see if it's even theoretically possible to beat the game with all those. ChronoReverse fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Apr 17, 2013 |
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Apr 17, 2013 20:15
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FoolyCharged posted:Having run the numbers the shot on the melder was 47.84% chance of killing the melder. Shot on the melder = ~.50 of 2 kills = 1 kill Shot on flank = ~.50 of 1 kill = 1/2 kill Shots from the roof = .70^2 that both shots hit one target (guaranteed damage to kill) = .50 of 1 kill Total: ~2 kills It's risky since the first shot has such a high swing, 0 or 2. In practice I would have taken that shot first, and if it had failed taken the 2nd flank shot from behind the car but not the shots from the roof. That would leave two guys in full cover with at most two shots coming at them, a very good chance that at least one survives. ChronoReverse posted:In fact, if his assumption that his cover was indestructible were true, his choice in this particular case are unambiguously better, it would have been a TERRIBLE choice to take the shot. And it's only because in that specific instance that it was the last spawn on the map that it's even a discussion.
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Apr 17, 2013 20:34
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FoolyCharged posted:.65*(1 - (.66*.40)) Completely beside the larger point, but I believe your .66 should be .75 due to the 25/50/25 damage frequency distribution that I hear commonly cited.
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Apr 17, 2013 20:38
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Please note that being crit immune does NOT protect your rookies from death on I/I. They have 4 HP and Plasma Pistols do 2 - 4 damage without needing a crit (quite opposed to what Beagle says in Ep. 1). Hunker Down is still good in that it dramatically reduces Sectoid chance to hit and somewhat reduces their chance to kill, but basically a Hunkered Down Rookie has a 1.25% chance of death for 1 sectoid firing, and if the cover is destructible it increases dramatically for each additional enemy that is firing. As near as I can figure, Plasma Pistols and other energy weapons have about a 25% chance to destroy cover on a miss. That means that in Beagle's case at the end of Ep. 1 it was very poor play to HD in destructible cover against 3 sectoids, since with all 3 firing there was at least a 33% chance that he would get hit by a flank shot and another 15% chance that he would get hit while in cover by one or more sectoids. So a 50% chance get hit. Conversely if he had taken the shot, he had about a 50% chance to kill 2 sectoids outright followed by 2 more 50% chances to kill the remaining sectoid. If all the shots had missed then the Sectoids would be taking 35% shots at his units, but with the one behind the pod mind merging it was likely he would face at most two of those shots which means a 58% chance of at least one hit. But that is only slightly more dangerous than hunkering while carrying the considerable upside of possibly killing all of the sectoids in one turn. TL;DR: He should have been more aggressive. It also pays to be more aggressive on the first mission on I/I because you can just start over if you wipe.
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Apr 17, 2013 20:44
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Chakan posted:Yeah, Results Driven + satellites starting at $420 guarantees there's no way to win on impossible, probably on classic either. The worst is Marathon + Diminishing Returns. I think the fourth satelitte costs around 1500 (dunno the exact numbers, but it's in the neigbourhood)
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Apr 17, 2013 22:19
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Edgecase posted:Completely beside the larger point, but I believe your .66 should be .75 due to the 25/50/25 damage frequency distribution that I hear commonly cited. oops, and here I was thinking they were evenly weighted.
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Apr 17, 2013 22:35
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