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There's also the old China-Cornell-Oxford Project that was referenced heavily in the book "The China Study".
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May 7, 2013 19:10
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Modus Operandi posted:What are the cancer rates in China compared with the U.S. ? The U.S. seems to lead the first world by a wide margin in cancer so this makes me curious. I think all the processed sugary food and exposure to household chemicals is what does most Americans in cancer wise. Except that this... isn't true?
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May 7, 2013 19:22
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dilbertschalter posted:Except that this... isn't true? Well I looked it up and i'm a bit off. The U.S. is actually #7 in overall cancer rates which is still pretty bad considering the other countries worse off than the U.S. are far smaller in size with less diverse health circumstances.
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May 7, 2013 19:26
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Modus Operandi posted:Well I looked it up and i'm a bit off. The U.S. is actually #7 in overall cancer rates which is still pretty bad considering the other countries worse off than the U.S. are far smaller in size with less diverse health circumstances. That could just be a function of reporting. I remember people were freaking out about Wisconsin having the highest growth in Autism cases when as it turns out the only thing that changed was how much funding they put into the Autism identification part of their health department.
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May 7, 2013 19:35
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I admit, I have not heard of the cancer cities. Got any good information? I'm surprised, I thought it would have been one of those things chronically underreported.
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May 7, 2013 19:55
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Speaking of American comedians being played in China https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CshqjZCQyKk Some Chinese comedian flagrantly ripped off Conan O'Brien, got caught, apologized, and proceeded to make fun of him, his Chinese and America. I'm outraged! 
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May 8, 2013 03:15
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Bloodnose posted:Speaking of American comedians being played in China Conan is so much funnier than that Chinese kid.
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May 8, 2013 05:08
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Has Conan responded yet? I find the idea of a perpetual back and forth between them to be hilarious.
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May 8, 2013 05:54
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Chinese people have started raiding the White House petition system:     And this one already passed the threshold needed for an official response:  This should end up hilarious for everyone.
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May 8, 2013 08:20
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Bloodnose posted:Chinese people have started raiding the White House petition system:  What?
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May 8, 2013 08:57
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There's just something magical about this one. 
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May 8, 2013 09:05
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Hong Kong is a crazy and awesome city, I support that petition 100%. e: we're the rightful heirs to the British Empire, she should be ours 
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May 8, 2013 09:07
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WarpedNaba posted:
The pinyin text in all caps says I DIDN'T STUDY ENGLISH FOR VERY LONG DON'T FORCE ME [to try harder?]
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May 8, 2013 09:09
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Well guess that means the administration is going to raise the number of petitioners required for a response yet again. I thought it was a neat system when it was announced, but I've never heard any petition addressed which wasn't the result of internet humor or internet stupidity.
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May 8, 2013 09:14
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cafel posted:Well guess that means the administration is going to raise the number of petitioners required for a response yet again. I thought it was a neat system when it was announced, but I've never heard any petition addressed which wasn't the result of internet humor or internet stupidity. It's all bullshit designed to feed in to the whole social media slacktivism thing anyway, even when used as envisioned. Why actually get involved in the political process or, you know, learn anything when you can just upvote random poo poo on the internet and then pat yourself on the back for 'doing something'? Or, more realistically, when you can  something funny.
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May 8, 2013 10:05
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How are u posted:Hong Kong is a crazy and awesome city, I support that petition 100%. I don't wanna be another star in your flag Bloodnose posted:The pinyin text in all caps says I DIDN'T STUDY ENGLISH FOR VERY LONG DON'T FORCE ME [to try harder?] Heheheh.
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May 8, 2013 10:56
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WarpedNaba posted:
Bloodnose posted:The pinyin text in all caps says I DIDN'T STUDY ENGLISH FOR VERY LONG DON'T FORCE ME [to try harder?] His English level is irrelevant, that's obviously machine translation. He didn't try at all.
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May 8, 2013 11:14
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hailthefish posted:It's all bullshit designed to feed in to the whole social media slacktivism thing anyway, even when used as envisioned. Why actually get involved in the political process or, you know, learn anything when you can just upvote random poo poo on the internet and then pat yourself on the back for 'doing something'? Exactly, it's a mechanism to get people to shut up. If you're pissy about something it's a way to think you're doing something without actually doing anything. If something meaningful actually gets enough votes, a carefully crafted PR-friendly statement can be written up... mixed in with all the joke-petitions of course. As long as the butts stay in the seats, it doesn't become feet on the street.
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May 8, 2013 12:45
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I've actually seen that last one circulating around my Facebook. The case was "mystically closed", eh? ... I guess petitioning in large numbers must be pretty exciting for Chinese, who are only allowed to petition in groups of no more than 3 or 4. Tofu is totally umami though. The petitions definitely just increase the illusion of openness/government accountability without bringing substantial changes, but I guess there are some good things. For example, it can draw out people with crazy ideas and explain to them why they're wrong all at once: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/we-request-obama-be-impeached-following-reasons/cpk4V6zK and response https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/short-answer-no-keep-reading
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May 8, 2013 13:57
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caberham posted:It's called Cantonese or being a Honger I've never heard that being said about hong kongers. What I do hear a lot is that hong kongers are rich snobs who look down on mainlanders as uncultured poors.
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May 8, 2013 19:54
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As fortunes have shifted and more and more cash-rich mainland tourists have come to Hong Kong, and especially since parallel trading (which is done by people who tend to look poorer and more migrant workey) was shut off, it's becoming less "Snobby Hong Kongers look down on uncultured mainlanders" and more "Envious Hong Kongers jealously rage at super rich mainlanders." But either way, there's definitely the perception that Hong Kongers are not patriotic. Mainly because in China, 'patriotic' means 'supportive of the communist party.' There's a slogan here 愛國不代表愛黨, which means 'loving the country does not mean loving the Party.' The Chinese word for patriotism literally means 'love the country.' So 'patriotism does not mean supporting the Party.' I've never heard the pro-government response to that slogan. I assume they would try to change the subject to talk about how good the party is for the country, rather than refuting the basic point.
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May 9, 2013 02:25
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That's the first time that I've heard anyone say the party is good for the country, whether in jest or otherwise.
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May 9, 2013 02:52
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How much interaction have you had with mainland Chinese people? It's not exactly a rare sentiment.
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May 9, 2013 02:55
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MeramJert posted:How much interaction have you had with mainland Chinese people? It's not exactly a rare sentiment. The party worshipers tend to view the dissolution of the Soviet Union as a disaster. Breaking up into different countries, rampant inflation, mafia and oligarchies running the show, and armed conflicts everywhere. That's why the Communist party should have an iron grip to keep the country together  Funny how China didn't want to be a vassal state to the USSR but Tibet and Xinjiang should "perfectly integrate into the new China"  A popular red song which all kindergarden kids have to memorize:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEJbNPeYNz8 If only this guy is ProPRC. Maybe the room is the same  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tCMI0uKbBE I kid I kid, keep up the hukou stuff and your struggles in China in the other thread  hailthefish posted:It's all bullshit designed to feed in to the whole social media slacktivism thing anyway, even when used as envisioned. Pro-PRC Laowai posted:Exactly, it's a mechanism to get people to shut up. If you're pissy about something it's a way to think you're doing something without actually doing anything. If something meaningful actually gets enough votes, a carefully crafted PR-friendly statement can be written up... mixed in with all the joke-petitions of course. As long as the butts stay in the seats, it doesn't become feet on the street. There is definitely merit in what you guys are saying. It's nothing more than an online buzz. It's still a response. Yes there are a lot of flaws, inconsistencies with "western democracies" and governments, and institutional inequalities. You still have your disenfranchised groups, racial tensions, poverty issues and all sorts problems everywhere you go. None the less, there is a transparent and somewhat predictable process to go through things. The link between the government and people goes two ways (yes but the government is a lot stronger). Not just in politics, but also government administration etc... The PR pill from the west is a lot more easier to swallow than how China deals with the public. The Communists is slowly catching on but it still has its work cut out to increase public trust. It's violation is just too blatant and not subtle enough because they are the only guys in the block. Bitching online is pretty much what all you can do in China. You want to hit the streets? You can easily get arrested. Take a train to Beijing and protest to the National leaders? Good luck with that, if the hotel staff know your intentions, they will immediately call some out of town cops to drag you back. Weibo or the internet will not be the great liberator, but it's a release valve for a lot of people because the unofficial channels to deal with problems in society is very very unreliable. How are u posted:Hong Kong is a crazy and awesome city, I support that petition 100%. We secretly celebrate Victoria's Day instead of Buddha's birthday. The only freehold land in Hong Kong is St John's Anglican Church where everyone cry rivers of tears  when they see the union jack and sing God Save The Queen  I'm not that hardcore of an imperialist but seeing the portrait of Queen Elizabeth makes me  But seeing Mao's portrait makes me  I was talking to a few mainlanders at a bar in Shenzhen yesterday, and those who have not been to HK still think it's some magical rich land where laws are just and society is fair  Everyone has their dirty laundry and from Bloodnose's Li Ka Shing update, HK definitely has its grievances. What I like so much about this city is that, things are a lot more transparent (see how long that lasts, with more mainlander influence). Everyone in HK may be a economical wage slave to Li Ka Shing and 5 other real estate companies, but our lives are being controlled by monopolies and economic transactions and not lovely state propaganda/inefficient government. We might be forced to shop in super markets owned by real estate developers, or forced to use electricity, and get nickel and dimed all the way to our deaths but at the very least, we can see the scale of life tipped against life. In China, the scale is loving fake and that's what infuriates everyone. For goodness sake's CCP, just run the country like Singapore or HK  hitension posted:Tofu is totally umami though. Actually tofu is what schools are made out of, that's why they crumble so easily  Sweet tofu as a dessert tastes much better  Seaweed, soysauce and scallions served in a dessert bowl is just absurd, even more absurd over than fighting over some rocks. Silly northerners.
caberham fucked around with this message at 05:10 on May 9, 2013 |
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May 9, 2013 04:07
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Plenty of Mainland expats where I live, but I've learned that they really, really aren't interesting in talking about Chinese politics.
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May 9, 2013 04:16
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caberham posted:or forced to use electricity, and get nickel and dimed all the way to our deaths Electricity is a weird one where the people actually don't get hosed too badly, because it's so heavily subsidized. Environmental groups have bitched about this being a free handout to the Kadoorie family (who are super rich  Hong Kong Jews of Baghdadi descent) who run China Light and Power, while discouraging people from cutting down on energy use. My power bill for the last two months was 36 HKD. So... yeah. I can spend more money having lunch at McDonald's than powering my home for two months thanks to the subsidies.Now you might think the counterargument is that people are still getting hosed because it's tax dollars subsidizing the rich property development/power company conglomerates. But most Hong Kongers actually pay barely anything, if anything at all, in taxes. Even rich folks pay less than 15% of their incomes, for the most part. Because of Hong Kong's weird situation there are no layered local/state/national/sales/whatever taxes. The government's been making a lot of money on stamp duties from property transactions lately, in addition to the huge amount of money they collect from selling overpriced land directly to developers. Now there's an interesting argument attached to this here: if the government is making up what it doesn't collect in income/sales/whatever taxes by picking up huge amounts of money selling land, and by extension having a policy of high land value/high property prices, then effectively the government is running a horrible regressive consumption tax regime. That is, the high land prices and by extension high rents on commercial and residential property cause all prices to be higher than they otherwise would be creating something similar to a consumption tax. And we all know consumption taxes disproportionately affect the poor. I think I buy that argument. Also the Falun Gong posters (that have since been taken down by court order) all over town used to have really good anti-Communist propaganda. My favorite ones were 天灭中共, HEAVEN WILL EXTERMINATE THE CHINESE COMMUNISTS and 沒有共產黨才有新中國, which changes just one word of the song caberham posted, turning the meaning from "Without the Communist Party, there would be no new China" into "Without the Communist Party, we can have a new China." Deep State of Mind fucked around with this message at 04:36 on May 9, 2013 |
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May 9, 2013 04:34
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So there was a pretty horrific article in the Guardian on the 6th. http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2013/may/06/chinas-barbaric-one-child-policy?CMP=twt_gu quote:Jin Yani, who was forced to abort her baby nine months into her pregnancy. quote:In the clinic, they gave me a shot in the arm. When I woke up two days later, the baby in my belly was gone. I didn't realise until a month afterwards that they'd sterilised me as well. Every woman in this county has been sterilised quote:When I told her I had a three-year-old daughter, she smiled briefly. Then she stroked her large belly and, tears filling her eyes, told me that before she left Bobai she was given a forced abortion. The eight-month-old foetus was a boy. "He was still alive after the nurse pulled him out from me. He was a tough little creature. He clutched the nurse's sleeve and wouldn't let go. She had to peel his fingers off her one by one before she could drop him into the bin." quote:Chinese officials recently announced that 336m abortions and 196m sterilisations have been performed under the one-child policy. An abortion or sterilisation performed on a woman against her will is an atrocity that, one might assume, could only happen during temporary periods of social psychosis or war. But the Chinese government has been committing these crimes against humanity systematically, and on a massive scale, for more than three decades, during a period of peace and growing prosperity. The elimination of life and assault on human dignity dictated by the one-child policy belong with the worst tragedies of the past 100 years. Bold for  , So is this legit? or some heavily invented story.
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May 9, 2013 04:43
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May 9, 2013 04:53
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There have certainly been forced abortions and sterilizations in the past. Nowadays they are only carried out in extreme cases on the fringes. The Chinese government is very much aware of the demographic problems they will face soon and have been gradually scaling back the One Child Policy to make way for its total elimination in a face-saving way that doesn't show them too hastily rejecting a decades-old policy that they once swore by. As for that woman's story about sadistic baby-murdering... it could have happened. Why not? Was it an official government policy that takes place regularly and is totally what the government intended? No, definitely not. Stories of exaggerating and straight-up making poo poo up about what goes on in China is nothing new though. Chinese-American CEO Ping Fu had her lies about the Cultural Revolution exposed earlier this year with great fanfare, for example. SCMP posted:First up, Fu's claim she was sent to a labour camp at age 8 or 9 with her younger sister where for the duration of the Cultural Revolution (1966-1976) she was kept apart from her parents, brainwashed, starved, tortured, gang-raped, forced into child labour and deprived of education. It's a long article that goes on and on. The weird thing about Ping Fu is that the Cultural Revolution was actually really horrible. Nasty, terrible poo poo went down. Why make up more extra poo poo? It's like throwing in some extra medieval-style torture stories into a Holocaust memoir. There's enough real evil going down to not have to lie about it. But anyway, about the forced abortions. If that's a true story, I would imagine there's more to it than what we're getting. Maybe the woman had made some enemies. Maybe that clinic was rogue. We'll probably never know. edit: okay, I actually read the article. My guess is that this particular place, Bobai County, is getting hosed because of the riots the guy mentioned in 2007. Because of that, I'm more inclined to believe that the woman's story is true and some Party Secretary somewhere below the prefectural level decided to use the One Child Policy, probably in conjunction with other laws open to interpretation, as a way to punish and control the populace in hopes of getting favorable numbers and ultimately promotion. That's how the Party works. At the same time, I get serious vibes that this Ma Jian guy is looking to build outrage against China. The biggest hint of that is when he describes the government as "totalitarian." Anyone who looks at the Chinese government today and concludes that it's totalitarian is deluded, willfully dense or someone who describes all 'commies' that way. He's obviously playing to an audience and then there's the other part... Ma Jian posted:Shortly after the Beijing Olympics of 2008, I travelled to Guangxi, where I had decided my new novel, The Dark Road (and oh look there's a handy link to where I can buy it from Random House right in the article), would open  I wonder if his book has anything to do with this. Hmmm. Deep State of Mind fucked around with this message at 05:20 on May 9, 2013 |
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May 9, 2013 04:55
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Bloodnose posted:
Adrastus fucked around with this message at 05:33 on May 9, 2013 |
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May 9, 2013 05:26
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Somewhat of an aside: blaming China's population explosion on Mao is silly. In almost all countries, if not in France, there has been a period of rapid population growth during the transition to modernity (and, for some countries today, preceding it), because more productive agriculture, better medicine, etc; can have an almost instant impact, while the economic and cultural factors that reduce the birth rate tend to occur more gradually.
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May 9, 2013 05:39
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And blaming female infanticide on the One Child Policy has been pretty well discredited as well. I'm sure it doesn't help, but sex-selective abortion and female infanticide are common in India (I think even more common than in China? Could be wrong, I can't find the data, and even if the data was there it might suffer from underreporting in China), despite sex-determining ultrasound being illegal there and them having no such one-child policy.
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May 9, 2013 05:45
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Wibbleman posted:Bold for Forced abortions and sterilization happen but they aren't official policy. A lot of the brutality you read about is local cadres who are nearly as uneducated as the people they terrorize behaving wildly outside the law. The accountability system is broken (on purpose) and these excesses are one of the results. These people have no redress and if nobody higher up in the power structure takes notice, there's nothing to restrain thuggish behavior. If the party ever got around to fixing accountability for party officials then this is one of many things that would stop happening. I see it as a byproduct of a broken system rather than something the Chinese government is doing intentionally. Elective abortions and sterilization also happen, with elective abortion being by far the most common procedure. Notice how the article you quoted conflates total abortions and sterilizations with forced abortions and sterilizations. In some places (and some times?) you could actually get paid by the government for getting yourself sterilized. The state of sex education and condom use in China make abortion rates very high.
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May 9, 2013 05:58
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Bloodnose posted:And blaming female infanticide on the One Child Policy has been pretty well discredited as well. I'm sure it doesn't help, but sex-selective abortion and female infanticide are common in India (I think even more common than in China? Could be wrong, I can't find the data, and even if the data was there it might suffer from underreporting in China), despite sex-determining ultrasound being illegal there and them having no such one-child policy. I don't think it's been "discredited" in any sense, as China has easily had the worst problem with skewed gender ratios at birth over the last 15 years or so. Whether or not you want to attribute that to the one-child policy is a matter of opinion, but the connection is logical enough- the basic source of gender imbalances are declining birth rates being combined with son preference and the one-child policy is an draconian attempt to reduce the birth rate.
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May 9, 2013 05:59
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I imagine if, through some magic, you introduced a one child policy in the United States, you would not see the gender imbalance. This has much more to do with a traditional Asian preference for sons than it does with how many children the government allows people to have.
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May 9, 2013 06:08
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dilbertschalter posted:...one-child policy is an draconian attempt to reduce the birth rate. It's the "second child if the first is a girl" policy in rural areas which has caused the bulk of the imbalance - there is some gender selection but it isn't an everyday thing and most people frown on it (at least in public) and sex-selecting ultrasounds are illegal in China (bribe required). The implementation of the one-child policy can be fairly brutal in some instances and the notion of forcing people to do (or not do) something as basic as having children seriously irks me, but the one-child policy isn't only about forced abortions. Alot of people agree with it for valid social and economic reasons you know.
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May 9, 2013 06:13
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Bloodnose posted:I imagine if, through some magic, you introduced a one child policy in the United States, you would not see the gender imbalance. This has much more to do with a traditional Asian preference for sons than it does with how many children the government allows people to have. Well, as I said above, the gender imbalance problem is mostly caused by the combination of son preference and people having fewer children. In studies that have been done for South Korea and Taiwan, what's been found is that there isn't much of an problem for the first two children, but after that there's a huge gap, as people who are having that many kids are doing so because they want a son. With a one-child policy, however, there isn't even the chance to have another child once you have a daughter, so a lot of people are going to simply abort/kill their would-be daughter to preserve their chance at having a son.* *This problem has been realized and it is indeed possible for a large percentage of the population to have additional children if their first child is a daughter. GuestBob posted:It's the "second child if the first is a girl" policy in rural areas which has caused the bulk of the imbalance - there is some gender selection but it isn't an everyday thing and most people frown on it (at least in public) and sex-selecting ultrasounds are illegal in China (bribe required). When I say draconian, I'm not talking about enforcement as much as the policy itself- saying people can have only a single child (with quite a few exceptions to be sure) is a very repressive measure. It came about as a response to a legitimate problem and it's very possible that on the whole it's been good for China, but people here seem to be slipping into anti-anti mode. dilbertschalter fucked around with this message at 06:27 on May 9, 2013 |
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May 9, 2013 06:22
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GuestBob posted:It's the "second child if the first is a girl" policy in rural areas which has caused the bulk of the imbalance  How so? Why does having a second child raise the rate of male births? You would expect 50% of families to have one boy, 25% to have two girls, and 25% to have one boy and one girl. Resulting in a gender ratio of 1:1.
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May 9, 2013 06:24
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Well because they kill the second girl obviously
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May 9, 2013 06:26
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Arakan posted:Well because they kill the second girl obviously The idea is to ensure that people don't abort/kill their first child, if that child is a girl.
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May 9, 2013 06:33
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