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BIG HEADLINE posted:They kind of did - only in a Voyager episode. The ship got caught in a planet's magnetosphere, and noticed that time accelerated on the planet below. Turns out, the planet's entire civilization revolved around the "Skyship" as a pseudo-deity, since every attempt the crew made to extricate itself caused pretty powerful earthquakes on the planet, so they evolved *around* the difficulties. Ultimately, the civilization evolves to Warp capability and perhaps even beyond what humans were capable of at the time. It was sort of chintzy at times, but it was a good episode. What episode is this so I can watch it without exposing myself to the rest of Voyager? It reminds me of a book I read once, Dragon's Egg, about a neutron star that develops blob life that puts together a civilization around the ship we sent out to examine the star and eventually evolves beyond us.
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May 16, 2013 22:46
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Chewbacca posted:I gotta have my 3:00 raktachino!" They better not be. That is a klingon drink!
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May 16, 2013 22:47
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Saw it last night, old time trekker, i thought it was bloody appalling, fine for an action film, worse than the first, and in much the same way as Wars fans deride the new movies as worse than the old. grumble grumble, Shatner would have done it better, with less lens flare, uphill, in the snow, 50 miles. However i have some questions. Where were the Klingon patrols, of all places, around the homeworld (surely within lunar obit) there should be a huge concentration of ships moving about, infiltrating and landing would be neigh impossible. The second highest concentration would be patrolling the border. Yes space is large, but sensors. And bouys. Where were the flotilla of Federation ships that likewise hang about Earth, the shuttles and spacedocks? If Kirk can call Scotty on Earth from the edge of the Neutral Zone, surely the Enterprise could call... anyone within sector 001 to help. And if we're ignoring the 'no warp drive use within the solar system' rule now, the entire solar systems worth of ships and defense systems would be on hand in seconds. Failing that, if Kirk can call Scotty on earth from the neutral zone, cant he call Starfleet HQ, or anyone when he is set upon by the Admiral? Even just for recordkeeping when the Admiral gave that rather unstarfleet order of destroying a helpless ship. If the Enterprise was travelling to earth and the dreadnaught caught them and shot them out of warp (ugh, wtf) and they fell out of warp somewhere near the moon... where the gently caress were they going at maximum warp? Through the earth? Why was Kirk stealing the scroll? For what purpose does one steal a religious artifact from in front of a new species. Simply plot? Dumb.
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May 16, 2013 22:48
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Kommando posted:Saw it last night, old time trekker, i thought it was bloody appalling, fine for an action film, worse than the first, and in much the same way as Wars fans deride the new movies as worse than the old.  ?
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May 16, 2013 22:52
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scary ghost dog posted:What would you have had happen after these key events? That would be me writing fanfic, so I'm not going to get into that kind of speculation. WarLocke posted:]Pike was in the conference room because Kirk screwed up and got his ship taken away. Kirk is responsible for him being there in the first place, and while maybe he's not technically responsible for Pike dying (since Khan pulled the trigger) it's obviously still a loss and blow to him. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Kirk said something about all the important Starfleet personnel gathering in that conference as part of protocol in dealing with these sorts of situations. I assumed Pike would have been present even if he wasn't commanding the Enterprise since he was an Admiral stationed on Earth. DFu4ever posted:Kirk died with not a hope in hell of being revived, at least from his perspective. His actions in the movie drove his character arc, which ended with him sacrificing himself for his crew. Him being revived doesn't lessen what the sacrifice meant to him and the characters around him, and the respect he gains from the act could be used for future story fodder. I understand what you're saying, but I fundamentally disagree. I think it is far more interesting for an author/director to allow characters to suffer the consequences of their actions without resorting to plot contrivances to save them (nothing would have changed - beside the mini-arc in the beginning - without Khan's superhealing blood). While I'm sure Kirk has learned something from his escapades, the impact is lessened rather extensively when he gets to continue galavanting around the quadrant banging green women and hanging out with Spock and crew. And on a personal level, I feel cheated as an audience member. I bought into Kirk's death hook-line-and-sinker. I felt emotionally manipulated when I realized the screenwriter had given himself a way out of that particular corner of the story. It's the same thing I hated in The Dark Knight Rises with Bruce Wayne getting away at the end. Hollywood has an (understandable) cowardice when it comes to killing off main characters that I do not enjoy.
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May 16, 2013 22:55
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Medoken posted:I felt emotionally manipulated when I realized the screenwriter had given himself a way out of that particular corner of the story. I think the important question here is how do you feel about Rapunzel healing Flynn at the end of Tangled?
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May 16, 2013 23:04
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What's wrong with film makers emotionally manipulating the audience?
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May 16, 2013 23:07
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Medoken posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but Kirk said something about all the important Starfleet personnel gathering in that conference as part of protocol in dealing with these sorts of situations. I assumed Pike would have been present even if he wasn't commanding the Enterprise since he was an Admiral stationed on Earth. It was the captains and execs of all the nearby starships (plus Admiral Robocop), I'm pretty sure he explicitly said that, right before he went off about them running Khan to ground. If Kirk hadn't hosed up with the native people, he'd be there as the captain of the Enterprise and Pike would have no reason to be there at all. Medoken posted:While I'm sure Kirk has learned something from his escapades, the impact is lessened rather extensively when he gets to continue galavanting around the quadrant banging green women and hanging out with Spock and crew. If Kirk had stayed dead there would have been no consequences - dead men don't learn things. He had absolutely no way to survive going in (even if the audience knew it was coming) so saying it wasn't a sacrifice because he's magically healed afterwards is just petty. Kirk expected to die, he did it anyway, and then he died. And now he'll remember dying. WarLocke fucked around with this message at 23:11 on May 16, 2013 |
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May 16, 2013 23:08
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Simply Simon posted:That at least is explained - he needed them to get running after him so they would not get caught in the volcano's explosion they couldn't see coming. Why they ALL decided to chase after him, women with children included, and he knew that...welp. As to the rest of your questions, welp Where does a bronze age civilization run to when a mega-volcano threatens to destroy their entire planet? Where was the Enterprise supposed to go if Spocks cold-fusion icebomb didnt work? No spoiler because this poo poo is dumb.
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May 16, 2013 23:12
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WastedJoker posted:In this diverse world there's nothing to stop a guy being called Khan Singh having an English accent and being white either, tbf. I think most of the outcry is that previously he was portrayed by Ricardo Montalban, he was always supposed to be a mixed race character, given his origin as a product of genetic manipulation and eugenics. But the idea of an attempt at "the perfect" or "the superior" man being white rubs people the wrong way. I don't mind that they brought back Kirk, because I really didn't want to have the next movie be "The Search For Kirk," but I kind wished they went whole hog with the mirror-ism of Wrath of Khan and had Spock give him a eulogy, Spock calling Kirk "of all the souls I've known, his was the most... human" would have worked really well, maybe better than than the original. I was really sort of caught off guard by the whole "dedicated to those who lost their lives 9/11" coda they had. I think Sci-Fi metaphors for current issues work better when they aren't that on the nose.
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May 16, 2013 23:16
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Gosh, so tactically unreal. An that lens flair! it's almost as if its an obvious artistic embellishment to portray some visual metaphor and not an accurate depiction of a virtually consistent universe parallel to our own! jesus jabrams...
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May 16, 2013 23:17
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bobkatt013 posted:There was also the TNG episode with Ray Wise in which he sees Picard and thinks he is a god, and is about to sacrifice Troi to The Picard. Also if I remember correctly Kirk did not give a gently caress about the Prime Directive. He would break it all the time. Especially if alien pussy was involved. With all the nods and homages in this film, I was half-expecting one of the captains in the "round table" scene to be named "Picard."
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May 16, 2013 23:20
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Danger posted:Gosh, so tactically unreal. An that lens flair! it's almost as if its an obvious artistic embellishment to portray some visual metaphor and not an accurate depiction of a virtually consistent universe parallel to our own! jesus jabrams... This is a thread about a Star Trek movie, so you're going to see a lot more spergin' about the plot and a rote dismissal of every other element of filmmaking.
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May 16, 2013 23:20
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Skwirl posted:I think most of the outcry is that previously he was portrayed by Ricardo Montalban, he was always supposed to be a mixed race character, given his origin as a product of genetic manipulation and eugenics. But the idea of an attempt at "the perfect" or "the superior" man being white rubs people the wrong way. Are we not spoilering this anymore? Fixed in the quote just to be safe. It doesn't help that with how loving crazy people are nowadays, if you actually got a mixed-race actor to play Khan and then had him strafe the good guys' building and crash a ship into London they'd flip their loving lids about Space Al Quaida or whateverthefuck.
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May 16, 2013 23:20
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WarLocke posted:It doesn't help that with how loving crazy people are nowadays, if you actually got a mixed-race actor to play Khan and then had him strafe the good guys' building and crash a ship into London they'd flip their loving lids about Space Al Quaida or whateverthefuck.
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May 16, 2013 23:26
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WarLocke posted:Are we not spoilering this anymore? Fixed in the quote just to be safe. I wasn't sure, I avoid threads like this until I've seen the movie, but I know both the Dark Knight Rises and Prometheus threads had fairly strict spoiler rules long after release Edit: I've only read the last three pages and read plenty of things I would have put in spoilers, which is why I only read threads for movies after I've seen them, but I didn't want to risk it for people who weren't quite as cautious. I'm sure a lot of people look to current release threads to see if they should watch it. Air Skwirl fucked around with this message at 23:34 on May 16, 2013 |
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May 16, 2013 23:31
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WarLocke posted:What episode is this so I can watch it without exposing myself to the rest of Voyager? It reminds me of a book I read once, Dragon's Egg, about a neutron star that develops blob life that puts together a civilization around the ship we sent out to examine the star and eventually evolves beyond us. "Blink of an Eye," S6E12.
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May 16, 2013 23:32
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Nice detail that's probably relevent to future stories: Praxis has already exploded in this timeline, and the Klingons don't seem to have much problem with that, meaning they'll have to find an another way to peace
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May 16, 2013 23:40
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Yes! I meant to ask about that in the thread and forgot. Interesting detail. What did you all think of their ship designs? I dug it. Same moving wing gimmick with a much more brutal military look.
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May 16, 2013 23:42
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Did anyone else think that Khan had killed Scotty aboard the Vengence, by crushing his head?
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May 16, 2013 23:44
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WarLocke posted:It was the captains and execs of all the nearby starships (plus Admiral Robocop), I'm pretty sure he explicitly said that, right before he went off about them running Khan to ground. If Kirk hadn't hosed up with the native people, he'd be there as the captain of the Enterprise and Pike would have no reason to be there at all. You're right. I somehow forgot about that. quote:If Kirk had stayed dead there would have been no consequences - dead men don't learn things. He had absolutely no way to survive going in (even if the audience knew it was coming) so saying it wasn't a sacrifice because he's magically healed afterwards is just petty. Kirk expected to die, he did it anyway, and then he died. And now he'll remember dying. As much as I love when a man quotes Sisko at me, I'm still not satisfied. Kirk made a sacrifice, but we didn't have to. The audience gets to have its cake and eat it too; we get the big heroic moment where Kirk gives himself up to save his crew, and the continued adventures of everyone's favorite starship captain from Iowa. When writers choose to be shallow, deferring to the lowest common denominator, I am turned off. The Star Trek universe is so much bigger than Kirk. Why does he get to live on and fight another day when so many others don't? Why aren't the Enterprise crew beaming rapidly down to the surface in order to begin putting Khan's victims into cryo-storage so they too can benefit from this miracle cure? Saving Kirk is lazy writing, it's cheap, and it doesn't ask us to challenge ourselves as filmgoers reading this movie's text. We aren't left with questions like, was Kirk's sacrifice worth it? What led him to a chain of events where he was the only one who could save the Enterprise? Do we choose to more highly value Kirk's cowboy, go-it-alone spirit, or Spock's by-the-books, greater good logic? Instead we get, how will they write away Khan's miracleblood cure for death? How do you retain dramatic tension in a universe where the hero in a very real sense is invincible? That question cuts to the heart of what I think is lost by writing Kirk back to life - he is no longer the flawed underdog character that I enjoyed. Kirk is a superhuman, anytime he needs to he can take a deposit out of the Khan Blood Bank and be back up and kicking in no time. In the end, I guess I'm being a huge lit/trek nerd about this, and probably overblowing some of these issues. But this is the big issue that has kept me from liking the movie. Medoken fucked around with this message at 00:23 on May 17, 2013 |
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May 16, 2013 23:45
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Medoken posted:I understand what you're saying, but I fundamentally disagree. I think it is far more interesting for an author/director to allow characters to suffer the consequences of their actions without resorting to plot contrivances to save them (nothing would have changed - beside the mini-arc in the beginning - without Khan's superhealing blood). While I'm sure Kirk has learned something from his escapades, the impact is lessened rather extensively when he gets to continue galavanting around the quadrant banging green women and hanging out with Spock and crew. And on a personal level, I feel cheated as an audience member. I bought into Kirk's death hook-line-and-sinker. I felt emotionally manipulated when I realized the screenwriter had given himself a way out of that particular corner of the story. It's the same thing I hated in The Dark Knight Rises with Bruce Wayne getting away at the end. Hollywood has an (understandable) cowardice when it comes to killing off main characters that I do not enjoy. My perspective on Kirk's death: as soon as I saw him start to die, I realized that Khan's superblood would be used to resurrect him. So there I am, watching what is supposed to be a deeply emotional scene with Kirk making the ultimate sacrifice, and wanting to scream "superblood will save him!" at the screen. I didn't feel manipulated; I felt like the director was hoping I had forgot about the superblood. Part of me wonders if the bit about McCoy injecting a tribble with it was inserted when initial screenings had the audience wondering what saved Kirk; sure we saw it at the beginning of the movie but that was two hours ago, and meanwhile explosions. Davros1 posted:Did anyone else think that Khan had killed Scotty aboard the Vengence, by crushing his head? I'm crushing your head! Crush crush! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t4pmlHRokg monster on a stick fucked around with this message at 23:58 on May 16, 2013 |
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May 16, 2013 23:45
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Davros1 posted:Did anyone else think that Khan had killed Scotty aboard the Vengence, by crushing his head? He only crushed the Admiral's head, but I swear, I thought he was going to crush Spock's head at one point too when he had his hands around it 
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May 16, 2013 23:46
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:He only crushed the Admiral's head, but I swear, I thought he was going to crush Spock's head at one point too when he had his hands around it I'm also guessing Khan's super hands have the ability to not be stained by blood and gore, either. Dude didn't even so much as reach for a paper towel.
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May 17, 2013 00:03
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Realized a really subtle DS9 reference this morning: the region of Kronos where Khan hides is Ketha province, the same place where General Martok comes from (the "Ketha lowlands").
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May 17, 2013 00:07
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monster on a stick posted:My perspective on Kirk's death: as soon as I saw him start to die, I realized that Khan's superblood would be used to resurrect him. So there I am, watching what is supposed to be a deeply emotional scene with Kirk making the ultimate sacrifice, and wanting to scream "superblood will save him!" at the screen. I didn't feel manipulated; I felt like the director was hoping I had forgot about the superblood. Part of me wonders if the bit about McCoy injecting a tribble with it was inserted when initial screenings had the audience wondering what saved Kirk; sure we saw it at the beginning of the movie but that was two hours ago, and meanwhile explosions. I empathized with Spock. Here's a guy, who can shut off his emotions to face death, watching his best friend, who can't, die terribly. Where Spock's sacrifice in WoK is sad and noble to Kirk, Kirk's sacrifice in this one is pretty horrifying to Spock. Quinto and Pine are excellent in that scene.
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May 17, 2013 00:10
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Aatrek posted:Realized a really subtle DS9 reference this morning: the region of Kronos where Khan hides is Ketha province, the same place where General Martok comes from (the "Ketha lowlands"). I got that reference immediately  It's pretty much the only region on Qo'noS that's ever been given a name.
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May 17, 2013 00:14
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Pick Hard posted:I empathized with Spock. Here's a guy, who can shut off his emotions to face death, watching his best friend, who can't, die terribly. Where Spock's sacrifice in WoK is sad and noble to Kirk, Kirk's sacrifice in this one is pretty horrifying to Spock. Quinto and Pine are excellent in that scene. Yeah, that scene was designed to be more about Spock's reaction to Kirk dying than Kirk actually dying. And Quinto really loving sold having an absolute war going on inside his head as he tried to suppress the emotions he was feeling. That performance is what made that scene exceptional.
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May 17, 2013 00:14
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BIG HEADLINE posted:I'm also guessing Khan's super hands have the ability to not be stained by blood and gore, either. Dude didn't even so much as reach for a paper towel. One of his super powers, aside from having super regenerative cells that allow him to never get hurt or whatever, is the ability to stay dry at all times! 
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May 17, 2013 00:20
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BIG HEADLINE posted:I'm also guessing Khan's super hands have the ability to not be stained by blood and gore, either. Dude didn't even so much as reach for a paper towel. He wipes them on his black outfit. This would have probably been more apparent if they had included the cut scene where he just demolishes a bag of Cheetos, and his uniform turns about 30% orange. DFu4ever fucked around with this message at 00:45 on May 17, 2013 |
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May 17, 2013 00:43
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BIG HEADLINE posted:They kind of did - only in a Voyager episode. The ship got caught in a planet's magnetosphere, and noticed that time accelerated on the planet below. Turns out, the planet's entire civilization revolved around the "Skyship" as a pseudo-deity, since every attempt the crew made to extricate itself caused pretty powerful earthquakes on the planet, so they evolved *around* the difficulties. Ultimately, the civilization evolves to Warp capability and perhaps even beyond what humans were capable of at the time. It was sort of chintzy at times, but it was a good episode. Voyager, as a whole, is pretty terrible. It has its moments though. (I can't remember if that's one of them.) Maarak posted:What's wrong with film makers emotionally manipulating the audience? Nothing, except when they use huge ham fists to write the script. The problem is not being emotionally manipulated, the problem is when it's obvious that you are. And this film was transparent. ShineDog fucked around with this message at 00:56 on May 17, 2013 |
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May 17, 2013 00:51
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Medoken posted:In the end, I guess I'm being a huge lit/trek nerd about this, and probably overblowing some of these issues. But this is the big issue that has kept me from liking the movie. You and me both. It's why I think that the main pitfall of both Trek and Wars is that they insist on focusing on the same characters over and over and over. What Trek really needs now is a sin-off (Star Trek: Excelsior  ) or an anthology show (different ship/crew each week, you could even do merchant shipsor a research base or klingons/romulans/etc, think Outer Limits).Rageaholic Monkey posted:He only crushed the Admiral's head, but I swear, I thought he was going to crush Spock's head at one point too when he had his hands around it That scene is kind of ambiguous but I took it as Spock mind-melds with Khan and Khan freaks out because now he is feeling his/Spock's cranium starting to buckle; smart move by Spock to get Khan's hands off of him. Pick Hard posted:I empathized with Spock. Here's a guy, who can shut off his emotions to face death, watching his best friend, who can't, die terribly. Where Spock's sacrifice in WoK is sad and noble to Kirk, Kirk's sacrifice in this one is pretty horrifying to Spock. Quinto and Pine are excellent in that scene. Aside from the horribly stuff-in in 'KHAAAAAN!'
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May 17, 2013 00:56
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WarLocke posted:That scene is kind of ambiguous but I took it as Spock mind-melds with Khan and Khan freaks out because now he is feeling his/Spock's cranium starting to buckle; smart move by Spock to get Khan's hands off of him. I totally missed that. Definitely something to look for on my next viewing.
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May 17, 2013 01:04
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DFu4ever posted:I totally missed that. Definitely something to look for on my next viewing. It's a really quick scene but the fingers on cheek type position looked right to be a mind-meld to me.
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May 17, 2013 01:07
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WarLocke posted:It's a really quick scene but the fingers on cheek type position looked right to be a mind-meld to me.
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May 17, 2013 01:11
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bobkatt013 posted:Also if I remember correctly Kirk did not give a gently caress about the Prime Directive. He would break it all the time. Seriously, that is explicitly the only reason it is written in that strict a form. Anyone actually trying to write a plot where in a manner where it results in civilizations dying due to Federation inaction is missing the point. 
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May 17, 2013 01:14
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Asimo posted:The Prime Directive as a plot device exists solely so that it can be broken to show the moral superiority of the heroes over authority. If you really think about it, having a Prime Directive like that is a seriously dickish thing at all. If you have the ability to help people but you don't because "Oh golly gee if we expose them to technology they'll be corrupted" you are a loving dick, end of line. Stop hiding behind "Bootstraps" and use your hard-earned knowedge to make their lives a little less lovely. 
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May 17, 2013 01:18
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bobkatt013 posted:Also if I remember correctly Kirk did not give a gently caress about the Prime Directive. He would break it all the time. Can't bone fine alien women if they aren't allowed to know you exist!
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May 17, 2013 01:22
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Medoken posted:You're right. I somehow forgot about that. It's not. He's at its center. And keeping your central protagonist alive is not cowardice, especially in a franchise film with expected sequels. Hell, killing your central protagonist in the first place is a very risky move. The sacrifice is cheapened somewhat by how quickly he is brought back, but it's still a significant sacrifice that resonates with the characters and audience.
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May 17, 2013 01:22
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PeterWeller posted:It's not. He's at its center. And keeping your central protagonist alive is not cowardice, especially in a franchise film with expected sequels. Hell, killing your central protagonist in the first place is a very risky move. The sacrifice is cheapened somewhat by how quickly he is brought back, but it's still a significant sacrifice that resonates with the characters and audience. I personally thought that was probably the most ridiculous and terrible bits of writing in the movie. Of course they aren't going to kill Kirk, but putting him in that situation and resolving it in such a hamfisted manner was pretty dire writing.
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May 17, 2013 01:33
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