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My only wish is that I could still modify my pledge. I'd swap the clockwork dragon for the zombie or skeleton dragon in a heart beat. Not that I enjoy the waiting, but come on, it's miniatures not insulin!
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May 16, 2013 16:30
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Yea, I'd add those paint sets and that Cthulu.
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May 16, 2013 17:16
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Bad Munki posted:I still absolutely do not regret the $200 of added-on paints, giants, elementals, and other poo poo I grabbed. I am so stoked and I don't care if I have to wait until Christmas. Yeah, despite the delay if i had it to do over again I would just throw more money at them.
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May 16, 2013 23:02
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Bucnasti posted:Yeah, despite the delay if i had it to do over again I would just throw more money at them. I suspect that the vast majority of people complaining would do exactly that, as well.
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May 16, 2013 23:07
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Captain Invictus posted:It's not really like that at all because that was a finite supply, while this was made-to-order. You're sounding just as bad as the Kickstarter comments and posting frankly unrelated anecdotes about Pokemon cards to try to support your argument, which is dumb. I don't really give a poo poo, I'm just saying that's why a lot of people are pissed. People in this hobby think that love of a product should equal the best treatment by the company that makes that product so they get mad when Reaper keeps delaying their orders but they can go on eBay and buy a Vampire set for 250 dollars.
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May 17, 2013 06:35
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They have been pretty up front with how the shipments are working; in multiple stages. Many people have gotten their one or maybe two Vampire sets and thrown them up on Ebay, in fact I have heard from a couple folks I contacted about not literally copying my auctions word for word who said they bought two, one to keep and one to flip. As far as I can see, I am really the only person who had mass listings of Vampire pledges on Ebay, and those are preorders. The others I see seem to be mostly from individuals who got theirs early. It sucks, yeah, that people are getting them only to resell before people who just want it for personal use, but how exactly can Reaper stop that?
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May 17, 2013 10:44
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Obviously before pledging everyone should have had to write an essay about how they are the biggest anim- *cough* REAPER fan.
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May 17, 2013 16:22
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TheLawinator posted:Obviously before pledging everyone should have had to write an essay about how they are the biggest anim- *cough* REAPER fan. Wait, you didn't? 
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May 17, 2013 17:35
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I'm trying to work out what method people wanted them to use. I mean, if you started with the largest orders, wouldn't that be more likely to provide stuff to people who bought in bulk to resell? Maybe you could develop some sort of system that prioritized orders based on their value, discounting duplicates. So that someone who ordered one of everything is 'top' because presumably they aren't reselling it. But even then you would be screwing the guy who doubled up something optional because he just really loves dragons (or whatever) against someone who just bought one vampire set and is going to resell it (because you would make money that way anyway). I guess the only reasonable thing is to prioritize people by the number of forum posts!
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May 17, 2013 17:47
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Ashcans posted:I'm trying to work out what method people wanted them to use. I mean, if you started with the largest orders, wouldn't that be more likely to provide stuff to people who bought in bulk to resell? Maybe you could develop some sort of system that prioritized orders based on their value, discounting duplicates. So that someone who ordered one of everything is 'top' because presumably they aren't reselling it. But even then you would be screwing the guy who doubled up something optional because he just really loves dragons (or whatever) against someone who just bought one vampire set and is going to resell it (because you would make money that way anyway). They couldn't start with the largest orders, because the addon stuff was what came in separate shipments from China and what they are currently waiting on. So to start with the largest orders they would have had to delay EVERYONE and would not have even started by now. They got Vampire boxes first, so they sent out orders that were just Vampire boxes and nothing else. People interpreted that as them going in money order but it was actually going in complexity order. But yes, at least one person who complained said they would rather everyone wait as long as he got his first, so it is partially just spite. Really, what people wanted was to not have there be any problems and to get their stuff first, whether or not that was rational or plausible. Again, this is a side effect of transparency in Kickstarter projects: People who have more information about the supply chain and the process think they are entitled to more things.
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May 17, 2013 17:55
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What people really wanted was to get their stuff by March because that's when Reaper originally said. If that had happened nobody would give a poo poo what order the boxes were mailed in. Reaper's delays are understandable and forgivable, but let's not pretend they aren't three+ months late for a huge number of customers.
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May 17, 2013 18:06
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I don't think they ever claimed people would get their stuff in March. They said shipments would BEGIN in March. It may be a little pedantic, but it seems a critical distinction, in that they met their promise in that regard.
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May 17, 2013 18:10
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Bad Munki posted:I don't think they ever claimed people would get their stuff in March. They said shipments would BEGIN in March. It may be a little pedantic, but it seems a critical distinction, in that they met their promise in that regard. Well, considering they stated they intended to get everything sent out by Origins and that is now impossible (5-6 weeks from now at the earliest until the final container arrives, and Origins is in less than 4 weeks), I'd say they've not met their promise. It's possible that some people won't even get their pledges until the end of July or later. 5 months after the "estimated delivery date" is worth being a little miffed about. Personally I don't really care that much, but I do think it's understandable to a degree.
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May 17, 2013 18:16
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Zurai posted:Well, considering they stated they intended to get everything sent out by Origins and that is now impossible (5-6 weeks from now at the earliest until the final container arrives, and Origins is in less than 4 weeks), I'd say they've not met their promise. It's possible that some people won't even get their pledges until the end of July or later. 5 months after the "estimated delivery date" is worth being a little miffed about. See, that is the thing. They never made any "promises". They were open about what they were doing, when they estimated it would be done, and the fact that it involved manufacturing and shipping from China. And also, they were just a tad blindsided by the fact that they had a historically and shockingly successful kickstarter that surpassed their expectations by an order of magnitude and thus also their logistical challenges. I think it's naive to expect that the shipping estimates they gave at the beginning would hold true once they were sending out millions of minis to 20,000 people.
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May 17, 2013 18:21
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If you go and look at the kickstarter page, which is still there of course, there are dates listed under every pledge level for estimated delivery. Most of them say March 2013. That is what most people saw and based their pledges on. Like I said, Leperflesh posted:Reaper's delays are understandable and forgivable and we've been over why they happened. But we shouldn't be surprised that a lot of people are disappointed their stuff didn't get to them yet. That other people have gotten their stuff adds to the disappointment. It's like watching your sister open her christmas present on christmas morning, but being told you don't get to have your present until some as-yet-to-be-nailed down date many weeks in the future. It sucks even if your parents are getting you exactly what you wanted, but the store was sold out and all they could do was order it and it's backordered. Some people are being unreasonable pricks about it, but come on. Reaper's late.
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May 17, 2013 18:29
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JoshTheStampede posted:See, that is the thing. They never made any "promises". They were open about what they were doing, when they estimated it would be done, and the fact that it involved manufacturing and shipping from China. See, that is the thing. You see professional estimates and promises as being much further apart than some others do. In some environments, failure to meet professional estimates can cost somebody his job; some estimates are even binding.
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May 17, 2013 18:32
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I'm not trying to be an apologist on their behalf or anything, yeah, it's late and gonna take a while longer yet, and I think people here are taking the news with reason. But wow, some people. Also, it's not like it's a BFL situation or anything. 
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May 17, 2013 18:33
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homullus posted:See, that is the thing. You see professional estimates and promises as being much further apart than some others do. In some environments, failure to meet professional estimates can cost somebody his job; some estimates are even binding. That's a larger semantic argument though. To me, if it's binding it's not an estimate, it's a deadline. It's also a larger conversation about KICKSTARTER IS OR IS NOT A STORE that I don't want to get into. At least in this thread we seem to be mostly agreeing while finding other stuff to argue about. I think everyone here would agree to the statements "Reaper has had delays outside their control that are causing their initial estimate to be months overdue, but has been very open and transparent about that." and "It's understandable to be disappointed but people on various forums are being hysterical dickheads about it."
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May 17, 2013 18:50
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I agree that Reaper's delays were outside their control: but I do think that they should have been within Reaper's ability to anticipate. Basically, their estimates of delivery dates were overly optimistic, given their supply chain, and that is something you can reasonably complain about. Demanding to have your stuff before someone else has their stuff is childish, though, I think we can all agree on that. And I'm very happy with how open Reaper have been about their process, the nature of the delays, and their efforts to deliver as fast as they can.
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May 17, 2013 19:43
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Leperflesh posted:If you go and look at the kickstarter page, which is still there of course, there are dates listed under every pledge level for estimated delivery. Most of them say March 2013. That is what most people saw and based their pledges on. They also can't edit those fields to my knowledge. Even if they knew a week in that they'd never make those dates it was too late to change it.
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May 17, 2013 19:50
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Yeah, you can't edit pledge levels once someone has something in them. They were pretty clear even when the Kickstarter was running that March was their "If everything goes right" date. Since that was an estimate, and they were up front about the possible delays from the manufacturer and customs, I'm good on that date. They could have padded it, but I think they were trying to be as open and transparent as possible there. They expected to have it done by March, and so that's the date they gave. The only issue I have is, as mentioned, I think they could have mentioned the staggered shipments. I think a lot of people were blindsided when they mentioned the next shipment was delayed. But that's not a huge mistake, in my estimation. I think it's important to remember that this is the first time Reaper's ever done anything on this scale. Yes, delays and missed estimates can harm a business's reputation (and can lead to legal repercussions), but things have to be considered in context. An estimate made for thirty new figures to three hundred people is going to be a lot different from 18,000 people getting two hundred and fifty new models in varying amounts. I consider product-based Kickstarters to be pre-orders, despite what Kickstarter claims. That said, I also keep in mind the context. Is this something the company's done before? Has anyone done it? What resources will they have? Delays can be reasonable. Unfortunate, but reasonable. I expect next time Reaper will pad their estimates a bit more (they've pretty much said as much). But that's because next time, they'll have the experience from this one to fall back on. Even regular pre-orders sometimes slip back. And again, how I react will depend on context. Did they gently caress up? Did they just get hit by circumstances beyond their control? Was this something for them to learn from, or should they have known from the start? I consider the problems with this Kickstarter "learning moments." For the most part, I don't think they could have reasonably foreseen the delays. They'll know better next time. On an unrelated note, goddamn but some of the posters on the Reaper boards are whiners. There's one person complaining that Reaper shouldn't argue with backers because Kickstarters are "panhandling," and they should be acting like the beggars they are. Another person is saying that Reaper clearly doesn't care about the backers, because they aren't shipping out the big rewards first, and haven't delivered everything yet.
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May 17, 2013 20:39
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All I know is the longer they delay the longer I'll be able to live without the carpal tunnel pain that will come with painting them.
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May 17, 2013 20:42
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JoshTheStampede posted:See, that is the thing. They never made any "promises". They were open about what they were doing, when they estimated it would be done, and the fact that it involved manufacturing and shipping from China. I only used "met their promise" to mirror Bad Munki's wording. Reaper has explicitly said several times, even fairly recently, that they expected to have 100% of the Kickstarter orders shipped out before Origins. That will not be happening short of a miracle now--the way things look right now, they won't even have received the final shipment from China that everyone's waiting on before Origins, let alone shipped it all out. They also said several times leading up to March that everything was absolutely on or ahead of schedule. Personally, I never expected delivery any time near March because it was blindingly obvious that the March release date was overly optimistic.
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May 17, 2013 22:04
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Zurai posted:
I expected March because I've never had miniatures made in China and shipped over, while Reaper had.
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May 18, 2013 14:47
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After backing Ogre and a number of other delayed projects, I realized kickstarter delivery dates are just happy thoughts and dreams. The wait is part of why you're getting such an amazing deal. I think this may have been a lot of people's introduction to that process.
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May 18, 2013 22:24
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I wouldn't call it wildly optimistic, unless you mean "done in March." Because yeah, the logistics there weren't going to let it happen. But to start in March and finish by Mid-April? It wasn't that unlikely. If customs hadn't held up shipments, and the factory had been able to ship as originally planned, they would have made it. And they were clear very early on that customs holding up the shipment was a real possibility.
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May 19, 2013 06:06
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Also the original kick starter was for a few new plastics, they ended up with a ton of extra stuff which blew the production time way out. Oh well! I got some of the big extras, so I don't mind waiting at all (and Sedition Wars ain't gonna paint itself in the meantime!).
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May 19, 2013 09:09
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moths posted:After backing Ogre and a number of other delayed projects, I realized kickstarter delivery dates are just happy thoughts and dreams. The wait is part of why you're getting such an amazing deal. I think this may have been a lot of people's introduction to that process. Yeah, I suspect a lot of the people who are getting upset are first time kickstarter backers. What's the current estimate for Ogre? October or something.
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May 21, 2013 08:52
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People who bought Vampire packs from me, I talked to Reaper and they are shipping me the Vampire stuff now, and then the addons and stuff when it shows up in 5 weeks. Number of Packages: 3 UPS Service: GROUND Weight: 74.7 LBS 
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May 21, 2013 20:20
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Captain Invictus posted:Number of Packages: 3 Wow, just under 25 pounds each??  I can only wonder what my giant add-on and paint heavy set must come to.
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May 21, 2013 20:36
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Yeah, I got the vampire set plus a bunch of addons as well as every paint set and a case. 
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May 21, 2013 20:39
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Weirdo posted:Wow, just under 25 pounds each?? No, I got 20 Vampire sets. That's all of them, so about 3.5 pounds per Vampire order I guess.
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May 21, 2013 20:40
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Yea, what that order means is that it was too much stuff for UPS to handle in a single box of any size, so it has been broken up into three separate UPS shipments. Please take a picture of that when it comes in. Preferably of you sitting in a bathtub full of Bones.
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May 21, 2013 20:43
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Ashcans posted:Yea, what that order means is that it was too much stuff for UPS to handle in a single box of any size, so it has been broken up into three separate UPS shipments. I plan on building a house
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May 21, 2013 20:47
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I cannot build a house with them, but I can stack them next to me and show the size of the Vampire pledges! Ten boxes with 2 Vampires in each. The addon order will be AT LEAST this big. Sorry for the blurry shot, crappy old camera and I didn't realize it wasn't properly focused.
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May 27, 2013 21:00
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Was not expecting a pic of an actual vampire. 
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May 27, 2013 21:03
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Being German, Irish, and having Alopecia Universalis will do that to you.
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May 27, 2013 21:05
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Captain Invictus posted:I cannot build a house with them, but I can stack them next to me and show the size of the Vampire pledges! Ten boxes with 2 Vampires in each. The addon order will be AT LEAST this big. Sorry for the blurry shot, crappy old camera and I didn't realize it wasn't properly focused. Given that you intend to resell them, and also given the rate of errors in the packing, are you going to sort through every box to confirm every miniature that's supposed to be there is there? Or are you just going to resell whole vampire sets sealed, and leave it to customers to chase down any errors directly with Reaper themselves? Because I sure wouldn't want to have to sort every one of those boxes, drat.
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May 28, 2013 07:58
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Given that I'm selling them sealed, I'm leaving it up to the customers. If they wind up lacking stuff, I'll give them Reaper's replacement info, no point going through me and wasting time and money when they can get it directly.
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May 28, 2013 09:04
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What was your profit per Vampire set? I must say I'm amazed how you spun this into such a profitable venture. I wouldn't have thought enough people would be willing to buy them, but never underestimate the frenzy of nerds and their little plastic mans. (Also how did they miss the KS in the first place?)
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May 28, 2013 21:46
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