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monster on a stick posted:Except if a major point of the film is that you should put the bad guy on trial instead of killing him via remote control, you should at least show that he had a trial. The major point of the film isn't specifically "Khan needs a trial", it's "Kirk shouldn't do the wrong thing", which in this case is "unilaterally killing a guy and sparking a war." Arguably, you could include in the montage at the end Khan being declared guilty and being frozen, but it's implied at the time that yes he got a trial because Kirk isn't a terrible person.
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May 19, 2013 00:31
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Gammatron 64 posted:I think they crammed a lot into this movie and it felt all over the place. Kirk gets demoted, then like 10 minutes later, Admiral Pike is conveniently killed off, oh, Kirk is Captain again! While I did like the movie, it was VERY chaotic. Yeah I guess that probably is my thing. The last movie was very focused and I think really benefited from it. I almost want to say that TID is more like Attack of the Clones except it's nowhere near that bad (I think TID is disappointing at worst whereas AotC is just loving terrible), but I think they share a lack of focus, which, in Darkness' case, takes away from the actually fairly strong conceptual and character work throughout the movie. (and would do the same in AotC if it weren't total poo poo to begin with  )Really though, what did the demotion accomplish story wise that I dunno, Kirk and Spock having to return to Earth to submit to an investigation that gets put on hold due to EXPLOSIONS wouldn't? Like, if you're going to introduce a plot complication in a short story (which a movie's story usually is) then it should actually accomplish something, and I think a lot of TID's complications didn't. Ernie Muppari fucked around with this message at 00:41 on May 19, 2013 |
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May 19, 2013 00:35
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Snak posted:This is unironically Nero's reasoning, though. Even if he can save Romulus in the past, there is no way to bring back HIS Romulus an HIS family. By changing the past everything will be different even if he could go back to the future. Translation: if he's not allowed "his" Star Trek, he's going to take Star Trek away from everyone else.
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May 19, 2013 00:37
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computer parts posted:The major point of the film isn't specifically "Khan needs a trial", it's "Kirk shouldn't do the wrong thing", which in this case is "unilaterally killing a guy and sparking a war." Arguably, you could include in the montage at the end Khan being declared guilty and being frozen, but it's implied at the time that yes he got a trial because Kirk isn't a terrible person. I'd argue that violating a treaty made with another power by crossing the border into their territory, landing armed troops on their home world, then being involved with a shootout with their military, because you want to capture someone who snuck over the border and whose government isn't even aware is there, is also the "wrong thing" to do. 
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May 19, 2013 00:40
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I thought this was a good movie but it's kind of forgettable. The story could have been more original and I thought the vague teasers leading up to the movie were especially lame in light of the actual plot. It was better than any of the TNG movies, though that isn't saying much. I think the hardcore nerd fans need to keep in mind that in general you shouldn't expect much from a Star Trek movie, and it's not like the original WoK was some deep masterpiece, though it was a smarter movie than this.
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May 19, 2013 00:42
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monster on a stick posted:I'd argue that violating a treaty made with another power by crossing the border into their territory, landing armed troops on their home world, then being involved with a shootout with their military, because you want to capture someone who snuck over the border and whose government isn't even aware is there, is also the "wrong thing" to do. Are we even sure those guys were with the military? I mean yeah they had the same space boats as their military and were demanding that the main characters land, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything in Space Adventure Land. Some Other Guy posted:I think the hardcore nerd fans need to keep in mind that in general you shouldn't expect much from a Star Trek movie, and it's not like the original WoK was some deep masterpiece, though it was a smarter movie than this. I guess that part of some people's disappointment (I can only really speak for myself though) does stem from expecting/hoping that the whole point of rebooting the series was to help ensure that they could actually do better than most of the old(er) movies (by not feeling like they were tied down by canon or whatever). Like, I'd consider myself a Trek fan, but there's a reason the only movies I own are WoK and Trek '09 (and VI if I could find it used...I could watch George Takei do space captain stuff all day  ).
Ernie Muppari fucked around with this message at 00:52 on May 19, 2013 |
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May 19, 2013 00:44
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Some Other Guy posted:I thought this was a good movie but it's kind of forgettable. The story could have been more original and I thought the vague teasers leading up to the movie were especially lame in light of the actual plot. It was better than any of the TNG movies, though that isn't saying much. I'm glad you said that about the teasers because that obnoxiously coy marketing angle really worked against the film. If they had just given us the plot from the beginning the reveal would've worked much better. I'm anxious to watch this one in a few years out of the shadow of those posters and stuff.
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May 19, 2013 00:46
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I'll definitely say that the film was way better than the trailers led me to believe. The teasers did not have me excited about this movie AT ALL.
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May 19, 2013 00:49
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monster on a stick posted:I'd argue that violating a treaty made with another power by crossing the border into their territory, landing armed troops on their home world, then being involved with a shootout with their military, because you want to capture someone who snuck over the border and whose government isn't even aware is there, is also the "wrong thing" to do. Tell it to Pakistan & Usama Bin Laden. Why do you hate freedom? LLJKSiLk fucked around with this message at 01:07 on May 19, 2013 |
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May 19, 2013 01:04
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Just got back. I loved this movie. STID owns. Bones owns bones. The opening sequence felt more like something straight out of a classic Star Trek episode than anything I've seen on screen in years. The ending section was a little bit cheesy/contrived but by that point I really didn't care. A good time indeed. Probably seeing it again in a few days with my sister and brother-in-law.
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May 19, 2013 01:16
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LLJKSiLk posted:Tell it to Pakistan & Usama Bin Laden. Why do you hate freedom? I somehow seriously doubt that the government of Pakistan was ignorant of Bin Laden's whereabouts. Even if the government didn't know, certain factions within the military and/or ISI sure as gently caress did.
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May 19, 2013 01:16
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bobkatt013 posted:That is Robocop We can rebuild him. We have the technology.
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May 19, 2013 01:20
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Gammatron 64 posted:I think they crammed a lot into this movie and it felt all over the place. Kirk gets demoted, then like 10 minutes later, Admiral Pike is conveniently killed off, oh, Kirk is Captain again! While I did like the movie, it was VERY chaotic. Same issue I had too, after that happened my first thought was "So what was the point of the last ten minutes?"
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May 19, 2013 01:21
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1st AD posted:The funny thing is that in the context of The Wrath of Khan, there is absolutely no reason for Kirk to deliver the KHAAAAAN line with such gusto other than him being a ham, because 2 scenes later it turns out he and Spock were in on a little joke that the Enterprise was up and running sooner than Khan expected. He knew he wasn't going to be marooned inside the Genesis planet. But it's not delivered as well this time. And Nimoy's acting (and radiation-face makeup) make the death in WoK a lot more realistic to me. Not to mention the magic blood that had been previously injected in the tribble so we knew it was going to be put in Kirk too. Failure of scripting/editing/something there.
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May 19, 2013 01:25
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Gonz posted:I somehow seriously doubt that the government of Pakistan was ignorant of Bin Laden's whereabouts. But what is really telling in your analogy, my first assumption in the movie was that John Harrison (someone trained by America/Starfleet to fight the communists/klingons) turns those very attributes against the people who trained him. Were the Klingons complicit in giving him safe harbor? I started to think that there was some sort of Klingon plot to let him lead terrorist attacks while building up their own military. My assumption being that it was a parallel, right down to the 9/11 payoff of an aircraft/spaceship hitting a building.
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May 19, 2013 01:29
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If it is OK to (forcibly) take some blood from Khan to heal Kirk, can we take more blood from Khan? I imagine a lot of other people in SF are gravely ill due to Khan's actions, is it OK to take more blood to heal other victims?
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May 19, 2013 01:32
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penismightier posted:I'm glad you said that about the teasers because that obnoxiously coy marketing angle really worked against the film. The buildup really torpedoed the big reveal, for me at least. Abrams announced a list of villains not appearing in this film, and I'd have taken any of them over what he went with. Then there was Urban's red herring and casting a dead ringer for Gary Michell's girlfriend... And then it turned out that the initial rumors were right and yeah he really went there there. It was just... why? Nobody really wanted this, did they?
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May 19, 2013 01:34
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I just saw this last night and while I was not a huge fan of it, I can't help but notice that Abrams seriously loving loves shots of the Enterprise rising from various mediums. They're gorgeous as hell, mind you, but there were at least three which was getting to the point of overindulgence.
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May 19, 2013 01:38
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I liked that so much of the marketing surrounded the mystery of who Khan was. It was a bit of misdirection away from things that really did surprise me: Section 31 and Klingons.
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May 19, 2013 01:39
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Vanderdeath posted:I just saw this last night and while I was not a huge fan of it, I can't help but notice that Abrams seriously loving loves shots of the Enterprise rising from various mediums. They're gorgeous as hell, mind you, but there were at least three which was getting to the point of overindulgence. I'm actually beginning to appreciate TMP a lot more because it has the same mentality about showing off how gorgeous the Enterprise looks. I just want to see the Enterprise go to warp and rise into the camera frame all day err' day.
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May 19, 2013 01:44
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I was really digging this movie up until the last act. It had the really great action sequences and character dynamics I liked the last one for, but the buildup to Kirk's death and the actual impact of it was completely ruined by them using space-magic to fix it like five minutes later, and I seriously have no idea what the point of showing half the goddamn city being destroyed was because no one seemed to care. It really seems like they were planning on having Kirk actually die and for the movie to end there since Khan has pretty much been defeated, but test audiences didn't like it so they crammed in the bit with Khan's magic blood, the tribble, and the city being blown up. It's a shame the lame finale cripples it so badly, it was very close to being one of my favorite films of the year so far.
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May 19, 2013 01:44
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On the other hand, I would not want to watch a rehash of The Search fo Kirk because the original movie was so bland/forgettable.
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May 19, 2013 01:47
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To the people saying "Why didn't KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN! get a trial?" Well, he already did. They spell it out pretty bluntly that in the JJ-Verse, Instead of Khan and his gang voluntarily taking off in the Botany Bay in order to escape trial, Khan et al were sentenced to Deep Freeze for their crimes. Hence why just before he SPLORTCH!es the Admiral's head he snarls "You should've let me sleep."
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May 19, 2013 01:48
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1st AD posted:On the other hand, I would not want to watch a rehash of The Search fo Kirk because the original movie was so bland/forgettable. This is true, I just wish more movie series were smart enough to avoid going the trilogy route and just end it at the second one.
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May 19, 2013 01:57
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moths posted:The buildup really torpedoed the big reveal, for me at least. Abrams announced a list of villains not appearing in this film, and I'd have taken any of them over what he went with. Then there was Urban's red herring and casting a dead ringer for Gary Michell's girlfriend... And then it turned out that the initial rumors were right and yeah he really went there there. It was just... why? Nobody really wanted this, did they?  It was me. I did, all along.Ensign_Ricky posted:To the people saying "Why didn't KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN! get a trial?" Well, he already did. They spell it out pretty bluntly that in the JJ-Verse, Instead of Khan and his gang voluntarily taking off in the Botany Bay in order to escape trial, Khan et al were sentenced to Deep Freeze for their crimes. Hence why just before he SPLORTCH!es the Admiral's head he snarls "You should've let me sleep." Eh, it could go either way for me. I like to believe that the pre-WWIII records are so borked nobody knows, but I choose to believe whatever the truth is it's the same because the post Kelvin changes should not affect previous times.
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May 19, 2013 01:57
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Ernie Muppari posted:
That's fun to hear that it is a real place because I kept thinking to myself that it looked so realistic. Like if someone today was building a warp drive it would look like that. I thought it was really cool so it's fun to hear that is a real place (even if they don't do warp drives there... yet). Other thoughts: Karl Urban did a great job channeling Deforest Kelley. John Cho was great too. I LOVED when he went serious to do his torpedo announcement. I also thought the 10 minute demotion of Kirk was strange, but I believe it was mostly to drive the Kirk/Spock relationship. Zero One fucked around with this message at 02:17 on May 19, 2013 |
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May 19, 2013 02:11
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iSheep posted:Same issue I had too, after that happened my first thought was "So what was the point of the last ten minutes?" Building the Kirk/Pike relationship, showing the difference in Spock/Kirk's adherence to Starfleet regulations, setting the theme of "Kirk doesn't think of his crew's safety before acting", other minor character developments. I don't know what to tell you if all you got out of the beginning was "Kirk was captain, wasn't, then was again."
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May 19, 2013 02:16
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Vhak lord of hate posted:Building the Kirk/Pike relationship, showing the difference in Spock/Kirk's adherence to Starfleet regulations, setting the theme of "Kirk doesn't think of his crew's safety before acting", other minor character developments. I don't know what to tell you if all you got out of the beginning was "Kirk was captain, wasn't, then was again." You know, maybe that's the case, but that's a big enough thing that I don't think it should be resolved in 10 minutes.
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May 19, 2013 02:33
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Just got back from seeing this. Loved it. I thought it was quite a bit better than Trek '09 actually, because I don't even really remember what the gently caress Trek '09 was about. The film actually dealt with some real emotion and interesting moral quandaries, which is something I haven't seen in a blockbuster since the first Iron Man. It wasn't condescending or pretentious, it didn't sacrifice character for plot, and it was funny without being loaded with one-liners (*cough*Avengers*cough*). It was everything a Big drat Movie ought to be, and a drat-near perfect Trek movie.
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May 19, 2013 02:36
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Another thing that bugged me about the climax: So the Enterprise was in orbit around the moon but then loses power and falls straight down to Earth? Gravity does not work that way! Even throwing out some kind of Star Trek physics explanation that they had zero orbital velocity and their warp field was just holding them in space, they should have fallen into the moon instead of Earth. The ship burning up on reentry was nice, though.
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May 19, 2013 02:37
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miscellaneous14 posted:It really seems like they were planning on having Kirk actually die and for the movie to end there since Khan has pretty much been defeated, but test audiences didn't like it so they crammed in the bit with Khan's magic blood, the tribble, and the city being blown up. Holy poo poo the very second scene of the entire movie is them using Kahn's blood to bring a little girl back from death basically you should be able to figure out what's going to happen JUST by that scene they didn't even have to hit you in the face with the tribble club but they did anyways
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May 19, 2013 02:40
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DFu4ever posted:Interestingly, only the people who are familiar with the callbacks are bitching about the callbacks. I seriously don't think the Kirk death scene is falling flat to anyone, since even the most critical people are begrudgingly admitting it was pretty well done. I actually got nothing at all out of that scene, just because the resolution had been telegraphed so obviously. All the way through it, I couldn't think of anything else. It's one thing to have a pretty good idea how things will end up by the end of the movie, but to know exactly how just deflated the whole thing for me. Maybe on a second viewing it'll work better.
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May 19, 2013 02:41
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qntm posted:I actually got nothing at all out of that scene, just because the resolution had been telegraphed so obviously. All the way through it, I couldn't think of anything else. It's one thing to have a pretty good idea how things will end up by the end of the movie, but to know exactly how just deflated the whole thing for me. Maybe on a second viewing it'll work better. Yeah it was telegraphed, but the scene still worked for me. Pine and Quinto acted their asses off, and Quinto nailed the Khan! yell. vvvvv Count Chocula posted:I'm impressed at how blatant the political message was. All the supporting characters straight up tell Kirk, with no hesitation, "Drones bad. Due process good. and he accepts it in the next scene. Wow, that one flew right over my head. DStecks fucked around with this message at 02:49 on May 19, 2013 |
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May 19, 2013 02:46
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LLJKSiLk posted:Tell it to Pakistan & Usama Bin Laden. Why do you hate freedom? I'm impressed at how blatant the political message was. All the supporting characters straight up tell Kirk, with no hesitation, "Drones bad. Due process good. and he accepts it in the next scene.
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May 19, 2013 02:48
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Zero One posted:Another thing that bugged me about the climax: I'm willing to let a lot of physics issues slide in a movie like this but as a massive nerd who looks at too many space pictures I had trouble with this one. Why have the Enterprise plummet down to Earth from out past Luna after a static shootout when you could've had the climactic battle be a ridiculous high speed chase in low orbit over Earth where the world looms menacingly below/above the two ships in every exterior shot, impressing the audience with how terrifyingly huge space is and how that's really dangerous right now? (hell, it'd be the rare instance where a ToS plot that revolves around maintaining orbit being difficult makes sense) Just, augh, I really have trouble looking the other way with stuff like that when the more realistic thing to have done would also have been waaay cooler looking. Ernie Muppari fucked around with this message at 02:58 on May 19, 2013 |
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May 19, 2013 02:56
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Guilty posted:Holy poo poo the very second scene of the entire movie is them using Kahn's blood to bring a little girl back from death basically you should be able to figure out what's going to happen JUST by that scene they didn't even have to hit you in the face with the tribble club but they did anyways Christ I must be an idiot. I did not put that together until I just read your post. I think if they showed Kahn drawing his blood and giving it to the father I would have remembered but I had no idea what it was.
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May 19, 2013 03:04
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Ernie Muppari posted:Really though, what did the demotion accomplish story wise that I dunno, Kirk and Spock having to return to Earth to submit to an investigation that gets put on hold due to EXPLOSIONS wouldn't? Like, if you're going to introduce a plot complication in a short story (which a movie's story usually is) then it should actually accomplish something, and I think a lot of TID's complications didn't. It accomplishes a lot of things really. Kirk getting blindsided by it makes for more tension between him and Spock that might otherwise dissipate in a world where Kirk already knows that Spock filed the report. They get precisely zero time to work it out and the heated argument that ensues in a later scene sets up the "you don't even know why I went back for you, do you?" line that Spock finishes during the death scene at the end of the film. We also get the scene where Kirk tries to defend himself but gets a load of Truth N T dropped on him by Pike. Which leads to the next scene in the bar where we find out Pike stuck up for Kirk and kept him from getting sent back to the academy. This is probably for the benefit of people who didn't see the 1st movie, so that Kirk's grief at finding Pike's dead body feels right. If the hearing doesn't happen cause Khan just shows up and kills Pike, none of this stuff really works quite so well. Though I suppose Kirk could still get mad at Spock if he knows in advance of the meeting that Spock ratted him out, it's much more fun to watch Kirk be totally caught off guard in the room after excitedly declaring that they are about to get the five year mission.
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May 19, 2013 03:15
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It's a light sci-fi summer action movie with a broad audience, it's bonkers to expect everyone to remember the second scene in the movie, especially if it deals with something like "Why isn't the main character dead anymore?"
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May 19, 2013 03:19
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I can't believe they gave away Marcus' daughter in her underwear in the trailer. That could have been a big reveal if I hadn't already seen it...
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May 19, 2013 03:23
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Stoked to see this tonight, is it one of them movies that you should see in 3d if you can, or is it not that big a deal to miss out on the third D?
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May 19, 2013 03:40
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