|
With all the temporal loving around that Enterprise did during WWII, you think the may be why Khan is white?
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 21:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 20:45 |
|
|
Throb Robinson posted:If Khan has magic healing blood why didn't Prime Universe Khan save his wife with it? He may not have known in the Prime universe. Although, it would make sense. All of his followers are haggard as gently caress. But he still had a strapping, youthful physique.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 21:33
|
|
|
7thBatallion posted:With all the temporal loving around that Enterprise did during WWII, you think the may be why Khan is white? We know that the UK took over France in the future and took over their culture, maybe due to time travel fuckery they also took over India again.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 21:35
|
|
|
Cordyceps Headache posted:Brain death by space worm = non-reversible. Brian death by being cooked by radiation = surprisingly easy to spring back from He explicitly was not brain dead.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 21:53
|
|
|
Finally saw it. I think what pisses me off the most about whitewashing Khan is that his identity is so incidental to the movie. There were a thousand and one ways to avoid loving this up, and they decided to do it anyway for a white British dude and a limp set of references. It was a serviceable movie, but they seriously regressed from casting in the loving 60s for nothing. 7thBatallion posted:With all the temporal loving around that Enterprise did during WWII, you think the may be why Khan is white? Sure, there could be an in-universe explanation for whitewashing or whatever making GBS threads on minorities just happened to be necessary to secure "mass appeal"/"core fans"/whatever. I don't think that excuses it.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 21:58
|
|
|
Benicio del Toro was originally cast for the role, then declined.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 22:15
|
|
1st AD posted:Benicio del Toro was originally cast for the role, then declined. Benicio Del Toro is not the only nonwhite film star in the world.
|
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 22:18
|
|
|
1st AD posted:Benicio del Toro was originally cast for the role, then declined. This isn't the Rooney Rule: outcomes matter, not just "oh we wanted so-and-so but he declined." This idea that Benicio del Toro is the beginning and end of Hispanic actors is ridiculous, by the way. This isn't even touching the part where it probably should have been a North Indian actor to begin with.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 22:20
|
|
|
I'm tellin' yah. It should have been Shah Rukh Khan. Heh. Comedy option, Salman and then it would fit in the action scheme of things.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 22:21
|
|
|
They already used the dude I would suggest:
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 22:24
|
|
|
Incidentally, there was this crewman that had this implant thing on the back of his head and spoke with a weird voice. Does this timeline have androids already?
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 22:26
|
|
|
If outcomes are the only things that matter, Star Trek overall is going to be pretty hosed since the majority of the prominent roles over the last 45 years or so have gone to white people. I'm not disagreeing with you guys here, whitewashing a non-white character really sucks, but the alternative in this film isn't much better. Brown evil man commits terrorist attack in London and San Francisco, he even 9/11's half the drat city. How would THAT read? Vasudus posted:They already used the dude I would suggest: This guy was such a cool character, a smart Starfleet captain, so of course he has to die.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 22:29
|
|
|
1st AD posted:If outcomes are the only things that matter, Star Trek overall is going to be pretty hosed since the majority of the prominent roles over the last 45 years or so have gone to white people. The solution to "this plot has seriously unfortunate racist implications" (which, by the way, don't go away since Khan is textually nonwhite, just being played by a white actor, not to mention Noel Clarke's nonwhite suicide bomber) is not "start whitewashing" but "reconsider the plot." Yes, Star Trek is hosed up, but it's marginally less hosed up than the rest of film and television.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 22:32
|
|
|
The Warszawa posted:The solution to "this plot has seriously unfortunate racist implications" (which, by the way, don't go away since Khan is textually nonwhite, just being played by a white actor, not to mention Noel Clarke's nonwhite suicide bomber) is not "start whitewashing" but "reconsider the plot." Yeah i'm pretty sure there is no merchantable way this movie could have been made to please you. Don't feel bad though, you're not alone at least.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 22:43
|
|
|
Styles Bitchley posted:Yeah i'm pretty sure there is no merchantable way this movie could have been made to please you. Don't feel bad though, you're not alone at least. You're wrong, but whatever lets you excuse poo poo, I guess. Unless you're seriously arguing that "roles of color not being whitewashed" is "non-merchantable." I don't think that "racist implications" are insurmountable - Noel Clarke's actions are portrayed at the very least as understandable, for instance, and even Khan is far more sympathetic than, say, Marcus (or even Kirk, honestly). I was really hoping this movie might really go boldly and have Khan and Kirk actually legitimately team up, ending with Khan trying to find a place for himself in the 23rd century when everything he stands for is considered repugnant. But stale safety prevails.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 22:51
|
|
|
The Warszawa posted:The solution to "this plot has seriously unfortunate racist implications" (which, by the way, don't go away since Khan is textually nonwhite, just being played by a white actor, not to mention Noel Clarke's nonwhite suicide bomber) is not "start whitewashing" but "reconsider the plot." So you're saying any plot that resembles 9/11 is off limits to non-white antagonists?
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 23:00
|
|
|
PeterWeller posted:He explicitly was not brain dead. I was being facetious. But in the case of immediate death by radiation exposure, which is different from slow death by radiation poisoning, the brain would not be undamaged
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 23:00
|
|
|
computer parts posted:So you're saying any plot that resembles 9/11 is off limits to non-white antagonists? Uh, absolutely not and if you read the post I made after that, you'd know that I was saying that racist implications are a reason to be considerate in how stories are told, not to not tell them. The solution is not, nor will it ever be, to further marginalize people, actors, and roles of color through whitewashing.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 23:04
|
|
|
The Warszawa posted:Uh, absolutely not and if you read the post I made after that, you'd know that I was saying that racist implications are a reason to be considerate in how stories are told, not to not tell them. How would one "be considerate" in this sense? Given, of course, that the main theme of this movie is "American foreign policy post-9/11 was bad and stupid".
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 23:06
|
|
|
I don't think Khan's super healing blood has the long ranging implications some of you think it would. After all, I don't think they would ever be able to mass produce it. 1) I don't see the majority of Starfleet, or even the Federation as a whole, being okay with essentially keeping people around (probably imprisoned, or almost worse - just in a medical coma in some tube or something or in cryo) to harvest blood from for medicine. Not exactly the moral high road Starfleet would like to say they take. 2) it's very likely that genetic engineering is illegal in this era (since, if Khan and his men exist, some form of the eugenics wars probably happened. Or at the least, there's a reason genetic engineering supermen are rare and not the norm). So it's not like they would just up and make more dudes for more blood or have a large pool of volunteers, if they even considered it moral and it was legal. So even if it cures death from a week away or any cause, I don't see it as being able to be mass produced or readily available, anyway. In the movie, it's just a last ditch effort that McCoy uses in the heat of the moment. I don't think it ressurected Kirk so much as it cured the radiation poison, allow his body to take over from there - they made a point of preserving his brain functions using cryo-stasis. Overall, I enjoyed the movie, and thought about 3/4 of it was better than 2009's. There was only a couple of things that keep me undecided on which was better Old Spock's apparance, and the Khan yell by Spock. The yell has been parodied so many times, no matter how fitting it was for the time, it made the whole scene seem like a parody of WOK to me - and I was completely fine with the scene, and kind of liked the reversal up until then. The blood cure was pretty obvious, but didn't bother me too much - there was no way they were gonna let Kirk stay dead, even if it meant that Tribble jumping up and giving him mouth to mouth. Despite it not being handled the best, I enjoyed the message about terrorism and jumping to war the movie made. At least this one tried to have some sort of theme/message, true to Trek, unlike 2009's which didn't really have any relevant message that I could pick up on.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 23:07
|
|
|
computer parts posted:How would one "be considerate" in this sense? I think this movie would've been fine if Khan had been nonwhite, because it portrayed his motivations, etc. Which makes it pretty bad that they whitewashed him, to be honest, and pretty loving galling when people insinuate that the whitewashing was either altruistic or better than not whitewashing. I was making a general statement about racist implications in movies generally.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 23:11
|
|
|
The Warszawa posted:I think this movie would've been fine if Khan had been nonwhite, because it portrayed his motivations, etc. Which makes it pretty bad that they whitewashed him, to be honest, and pretty loving galling when people insinuate that the whitewashing was either altruistic or better than not whitewashing. I was making a general statement about racist implications in movies generally. It wouldn't have been fine though. Plenty of people would be complaining that a central asian guy crashed a stolen flying machine into buildings on the waterfront.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 23:15
|
|
|
computer parts posted:It wouldn't have been fine though. Plenty of people would be complaining that a central asian guy crashed a stolen flying machine into buildings on the waterfront. Does this excuse whitewashing as opposed to, say, considering whether having that setpiece is essential to the film? If this was an attempt to avert the racist implications of the plot (which, by the way, are not averted, since Khan is still textually a Central Asian guy crashing a stolen flying machine into buildings on the waterfront, he's just doing so while ALSO further marginalizing roles and actors of color via whitewashing), it was a poor solution. The Warszawa fucked around with this message at 23:29 on May 22, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 23:20
|
|
|
If it's any consolation, when I was little and had only seen WOK and not Space Seed, I thought Khan was white until I saw Space Seed and saw him when the actor was younger. The name didn't give it away because, hey, it's the future and they're in space.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 23:22
|
|
|
Yeah, well, for me, Wrath of Khan was the first time I'd ever seen a character in sci-fi who "looked like me," so to speak, in a genre that is rarely on the vanguard of racial inclusion. It's what kept me interested in sci-fi when a lot of people were saying "well, why do you care about that stuff, it's not really for you." Granted, this was because they cross-cast a Mexican actor, but when even actors in the current film series were saying that Khan is so important in part because he is a character of color in a really white genre, it's really hosed up that they had to regress from the 60s. Racialicious, as usual, has a good write-up (spoilers obviously): http://www.racialicious.com/2013/05/22/table-for-two-star-trek-into-darkness/ As does Racebending: http://www.racebending.com/v4/featured/star-trek-whiteness/ Considering what a badass he was as Sulu, it is funny to see all the compiled incidents where John Cho was giving the whole team the sideeye. The Warszawa fucked around with this message at 23:34 on May 22, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 23:28
|
|
|
Gatts posted:I'm tellin' yah. It should have been Shah Rukh Khan. Heh. Comedy option, Salman and then it would fit in the action scheme of things. I honestly wasn't sure if the line in which Mr. Harrison says his name was meant to be a reference or not. One the one hand, it serves no purpose to have a random reference like that. On the other hand, the movie's full of 'em, so why not another one?
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 23:29
|
|
|
Cordyceps Headache posted:I was being facetious. But in the case of immediate death by radiation exposure, which is different from slow death by radiation poisoning, the brain would not be undamaged You were picking a nit while getting a detail incorrect. And the film explicitly states otherwise because it is science fiction and gets to make its own rules.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2013 23:38
|
|
|
That was really good. Loved just the feeling of dread as you saw Star Fleet make terrible decision after terrible decision (which, ultimately, was intentional) - they were bailed out by Khan when it came down to them vs. the admiral, but then of course the ultimate tragedy was even worse - let's not forget that a city was loving plowed. Especially when the obvious question - why did he come at us with a gun and not a bomb? - wasn't asked because Kirk's head (and nobody's head) was on straight, and they end up getting destroyed for it. It's interesting how the movie opens with a breach of protocol, and then every breach of protocol afterwards leads to catastrophe. Cumberbatch's performance was awesome, in every sense of the word. I may have missed something - within the timeline of the film, had Khan been a genocider? Did he get Minority Report'd? So, in conclusion, StarFleet caused 9/11 No Wave fucked around with this message at 01:00 on May 23, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 23, 2013 00:53
|
|
|
No Wave posted:I may have missed something - within the timeline of the film, had Khan been a genocider? Did he get Minority Report'd? The movie barely noted this, but Khan was a dictator in the 1990s whose rule spanned a quarter of the Earth. Supercar Gautier fucked around with this message at 01:58 on May 23, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 23, 2013 01:17
|
|
Supercar Gautier posted:The movie barely noted this, but Khan was a dictator in the 1990s whos rule spanned a quarter of the Earth. This is another part of why I feel they should have ditched the Old Spock scene and done someone doing an archive binge instead to find out who Khan is. They tell you "this guy is superhuman, he's dangerous and evil" but they don't give you reasons why he is, just Old Spock's word on the subject. Contrast how it would have been if they played it similar to how Space Seed did the reveal, a burning, extended "oh poo poo" moment when someone is listing off all the atrocities Khan is responsible for, and how he's as arrogant as he is because in a world ruled by supermen, he was the most brutal and ruthless of them all.
|
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2013 01:33
|
|
|
Unmarked spoilers because its page 112 and you probably shouldn't be here if you haven't seen the movie!! That's what rotten tomatoes and the film dump are for, jeez. I liked it. I mean, I have some complaints with how they portray certain things, but they're similar to my complaints for ST09, namely, nitpicky. -"Cold fusion device," grossly incorrect. Besides, what did it really do? Freeze the entire mantle of the planet to stop the pressure from exploding? Now the planet is really hosed. -"Enterprise falls straight down into Earth from the Moon's orbit." So it just had zero orbital velocity? Shouldn't it have fallen into the moon? They can have zero velocity, but then the Moon needs to be moving away from them or something. -"Artificial Gravity, on walls??" I really thought the idea was that the power was gone so the artificial gravity would fail and we'd have a cool freefalling action sequence, but I guess since the Enterprise fell from 350,000km to 12km in about 5 minutes, who cares! (Judging 12km by cloud cover when they reignited their engines. That's 1120km/s, or .003 c. ) -"Transporter from Earth to Kronos" I mean if you can teleport that far, then can I really complain about how fast Warp was? -"Warp 100" 5 second warp time between Earth and Kronos? poo poo, might as well build giant teleporters. -"Speaking of Warp," should the enterprise really be engaging their space bending warp drive 50 meters away from their space port? That seems, dangerous as hell. Really though, most of the junk gets a free pass in my book just because of the first scene on ST09 when crew gets sucked into the vacuum and the soundtrack went dead silent. Good flick, but if we're gonna complain about Khan's blood, we might as well go balls to the wall. I knew Kirk would come back, but I figured he didn't know so it wasn't totally pointless to me. Spock defeated Khan with physical strength and by outwitting him with the missiles. He never wasn't going to let Khan take them, he just had to milk it a little. ziasquinn fucked around with this message at 01:37 on May 23, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 23, 2013 01:35
|
|
|
mr. stefan posted:This is another part of why I feel they should have ditched the Old Spock scene and done someone doing an archive binge instead to find out who Khan is. They tell you "this guy is superhuman, he's dangerous and evil" but they don't give you reasons why he is, just Old Spock's word on the subject. Contrast how it would have been if they played it similar to how Space Seed did the reveal, a burning, extended "oh poo poo" moment when someone is listing off all the atrocities Khan is responsible for, and how he's as arrogant as he is because in a world ruled by supermen, he was the most brutal and ruthless of them all. In Space Seed they actually describe his leadership as despotic but not violent or oppressive. Everyone except Spock almost admires him.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2013 01:53
|
|
|
If the movie takes place in 2259, and Kahn was put into cryo-statis 300 years ago, then the Eugenics War took place in the 1950s? Am I missing something? Didn't the Eugenics War take place in the 1990s in the original series. Obviously this is also way off if you're comparing either timeline to our own, but at least the Original Series had the excuse of being aired before the 1990s so they could at least speculate that it may take place sometime in the near future.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2013 01:57
|
|
|
mr. stefan posted:This is another part of why I feel they should have ditched the Old Spock scene and done someone doing an archive binge instead to find out who Khan is. They tell you "this guy is superhuman, he's dangerous and evil" but they don't give you reasons why he is, just Old Spock's word on the subject. Contrast how it would have been if they played it similar to how Space Seed did the reveal, a burning, extended "oh poo poo" moment when someone is listing off all the atrocities Khan is responsible for, and how he's as arrogant as he is because in a world ruled by supermen, he was the most brutal and ruthless of them all. I like that the film didn't present an objective, archival truth of his true nature to us - and instead, just the recollection of a time-traveler told offscreen about an entirely different history. You don't know how responsible both Kirk and Spock's betrayal of Khan was for developing his hatred of humanity enough to crash the ship into earth. Kirk is the first to betray, and without cause beyond his rage over his father-figure's death. And I think that dynamic is pretty great. No Wave fucked around with this message at 02:06 on May 23, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 23, 2013 02:01
|
|
|
No Wave posted:I don't know - I think Khan's quest was understandable for the most part - he just wanted to save his people. I think the movie does a pretty good job of informing us that Khan feels basically betrayed by the modern world, and there's quite a bit of weight on the scenes where he doesn't trust Kirk (as well as the few where he saves Kirk on the admiral's ship). Honestly I don't understand the whole pseudo-philosophical "I can't tell you what happened in my timeline because it would taint yours," BS Old Spock keeps bringing up in these movies. He already irreparably hosed up the timeline. Everything is unfolding differently now. Nothing he "predicts" holds much weight anymore anyway so he might as well tell all.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2013 02:05
|
|
|
Gianthogweed posted:Honestly I don't understand the whole pseudo-philosophical "I can't tell you what happened in my timeline because it would taint yours," BS Old Spock keeps bringing up in these movies. He already irreparably hosed up the timeline. Everything is unfolding differently now. Nothing he "predicts" holds much weight anymore anyway so he might as well tell all.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2013 02:07
|
|
|
Gianthogweed posted:If the movie takes place in 2259, and Kahn was put into cryo-statis 300 years ago, then the Eugenics War took place in the 1950s? Am I missing something? Didn't the Eugenics War take place in the 1990s in the original series. Obviously this is also way off if you're comparing either timeline to our own, but at least the Original Series had the excuse of being aired before the 1990s so they could at least speculate that it may take place sometime in the near future. The best explanation I've heard is that McCoy's line about "This guy is 300 years old!" wasn't an exact figure, just a close approximation since he was talking to non-medical/scientific personnel.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2013 02:09
|
|
|
jivjov posted:The best explanation I've heard is that McCoy's line about "This guy is 300 years old!" wasn't an exact figure, just a close approximation since he was talking to non-medical/scientific personnel. Dammit, jivjov, he's a doctor, not a historian!
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2013 02:16
|
|
|
The Warszawa posted:Dammit, jivjov, he's a doctor, not a historian! Nice one. All the same I'm surprised the writers didn't catch this and do the math (maybe they did but didn't care). All he could have said was "they've been asleep for over 200 years" or something. This would have made it consistent with the original series without having to actually say that a eugenics war happened in the 20th Century.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2013 02:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 20:45 |
|
|
Yes remember even the original 1960's series is now in an alternate universe.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2013 02:26
|
|