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TARDISman posted:This actually makes a disturbing amount of sense, because I can honestly see Alejandro Corner or Ribbons sitting around in a lab deleting random bits from Schenberg's plan just to be assholes. What, shooting Schenberg in his frozen head wasn't enough of a dick move?
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May 23, 2013 06:42
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ImpAtom posted:Eh, I think 00 suffered from Setsuna just basically not having a sensible path of development. The second season and all the Innovation and Raiser stuff basically divorced him from the rest of the plot. He barely interacted and they had to shove Saji into his backpack to give him someone to even slightly play off of and write his robot out of the scene any time drama was actually necessary because it could solve most problems. Without delving too much into fanfiction I still stand by the idea that Saji would have made a much better protagonist for season 2 of 00 Gundam. You get rid of Lockon 2, because lets face it, that was loving dumb. You keep Setsuna in an upgraded and still melee focused Exia, and you have Saji refuse to fight at all until Louise enters the picture. Then you stick him in the 00, have it still be ridiculously overpowered to help him stay alive, and have him consistantly have to grapple with the idea of taking lives and trying to save Louise from her own personal darkness in a way that didn't involve facing backwards screaming LOUISE while Setsuna kicks her teeth in. I really liked the Saji/Louise stuff in season 1, and I found it really frustrating that the two didn't ever really confront one another before the ending scenes.
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May 23, 2013 06:59
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Somehow before I watched season 2 I somehow came under the mistaken impression (I think I got fed a bad piece of information of how heavily Saji factored into season 2) that Saji had independently joined the team from season 1 and became a Celestial Being pilot who had his own Gundam. Said Gundam would link up with Setsuna's back-to-back to become some sort of pseudo-centaur super Gundam, apparently called the "Double-Bro Raiser", and that the two had become best buds over the time skip. I really don't know how that happened. I'm also not sure if that would have been better or worse than what actually happened in season 2.
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May 23, 2013 07:15
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TheKingofSprings posted:Somehow before I watched season 2 I somehow came under the mistaken impression (I think I got fed a bad piece of information of how heavily Saji factored into season 2) that Saji had independently joined the team from season 1 and became a Celestial Being pilot who had his own Gundam. Said Gundam would link up with Setsuna's back-to-back to become some sort of pseudo-centaur super Gundam, apparently called the "Double-Bro Raiser", and that the two had become best buds over the time skip. So 00 should've become G Gundam? I think part of what annoys me is that there were a lot of interesting threads that could have been fleshed out more but were instead sacrificed for a lot of focus on the two worst, least interesting, and ultimately irrelevant characters in the show (and Sergei). For example (spoilering just in case) series captain mom Sumeragi being an alcoholic with direct ties to one of the more prominent antagonists, Wang Liu Mei's betrayal that pretty much comes out of nowhere, the previously mentioned lack of on-screen development for Setsuna, or pretty much anything at all relating to Marina. Marina in particular annoys me because she is completely irrelevant. I can understand that there's a reason to show the war's effects on more or less uninvolved people, but they already did a decent job of it in season 1 with Saji and Louise, which makes Marina stand out even more for being so poorly developed. She was a powerless figurehead of a nation that as far as I can recall had no impact on anything prominent in the story. She spends season 2 tagging along with good guy terrorists and being hunted even though she literally has no power. Hell, comedy relief pilot Patrick probably has more character development than she does. At any rate, I think we can all agree that 00 would have been better if Allelujah and Maria just never existed. chumbler fucked around with this message at 07:48 on May 23, 2013 |
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May 23, 2013 07:41
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On the bright side, if you just watch season one and then pretend that The Plan was to unite everyone against the Gundams to bring the world together and that everyone died at the end, then it works pretty well as a 25 episode series. All its missing is a little monologue from Marina about how the whole ordeal led to the first steps towards global unity and you're golden.
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May 23, 2013 09:01
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That suit will forever be known to me now as "Double-Bro Raiser". Hahahaha amazing!
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May 23, 2013 10:37
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Caros posted:Without delving too much into fanfiction I still stand by the idea that Saji would have made a much better protagonist for season 2 of 00 Gundam. Lockon 2 was actually one of the few plot threads in season 2 that was well done and interesting, though. You have a story about this man who is hired on as Celestial Being's surrogate for a beloved man who died for all of their sakes. He looks and sounds identical to the person he's replacing, and the members of Celestial Being sometimes forget that they're not the same person(see Feldt crushing on him like she crushed on Lockon 1). And that's the core conflict for him in 00 S2 - he's NOT Lockon 1. He has his own desires and goals - initially working for Kataron over working for CB - and is so unnerved by the level of deference they're giving him because of his brother's sacrifice and their similarity that he even starts doing things specifically to establish that he's NOT Lockon 1(being a huge dick to Feldt is an example). His entire arc is him traveling from Celestial Being hiring him to mitigate their personal loss and him taking advantage for his own purposes to the members of Celestial Being loving and appreciating him on his own merits and him coming to believe in their cause. I don't know if it was accidental or not but I thought his arc was easily the most complete and successful in the entire back half of the series. Saji being the protagonist in season 2 would have made absolutely zero sense without a whole lot of "AND THIS HAPPENED OFFSCREEN!". Saji in season 1 is established really strongly as a dude who hates the conflict. His best friend/girlfriend is physically mangled and loses her entire happy family to Gundams. His sister is killed because she's investigating Gundams. He repeatedly cannot comprehend how people like Setsuna would do the things they're doing. Season 1 ends with him deciding to go into space as a peaceful worker to fulfill both his own and Louise's dreams because she can't anymore. If anything, that tied off his arc completely and his inclusion in S2 at all is a little awkward. Given that Gundams have utterly ruined his happy life and directly or indirectly destroyed everyone dear to him, why would he want to be a Gundam pilot again? You'd have to pull a 180 on all of his season 1 development in the time gap.
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May 23, 2013 14:11
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Kuroyama posted:But isn't Mr. Bushido just a nickname? Although I can't explain the rationale behind the Innovator names It's a nickname that Graham outright says he tried to make other soldiers stop using, until he just gave up. How many Gundam characters have had their name forcibly changed by their fellows?
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May 23, 2013 14:19
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Schubalts posted:It's a nickname that Graham outright says he tried to make other soldiers stop using, until he just gave up. How many Gundam characters have had their name forcibly changed by their fellows? Of course he gave up. The man was wearing a samurai mask and using old-timey samurai speech. Mister Bushido is probably the kindest nickname he could have hoped for.
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May 23, 2013 15:08
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TheKingofSprings posted:Somehow before I watched season 2 I somehow came under the mistaken impression (I think I got fed a bad piece of information of how heavily Saji factored into season 2) that Saji had independently joined the team from season 1 and became a Celestial Being pilot who had his own Gundam. Said Gundam would link up with Setsuna's back-to-back to become some sort of pseudo-centaur super Gundam, apparently called the "Double-Bro Raiser", and that the two had become best buds over the time skip. I'd watch that show. Hell, I'd watch any show with a robot called "Double-Brow Raiser."
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May 23, 2013 15:09
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TheKingofSprings posted:Somehow before I watched season 2 I somehow came under the mistaken impression (I think I got fed a bad piece of information of how heavily Saji factored into season 2) that Saji had independently joined the team from season 1 and became a Celestial Being pilot who had his own Gundam. Said Gundam would link up with Setsuna's back-to-back to become some sort of pseudo-centaur super Gundam, apparently called the "Double-Bro Raiser", and that the two had become best buds over the time skip. Did you hang around /m/ at the time by chance? They made a big fuss about the bro-mance between Setsuna and Saji like they were best buds, killing dudes and downing beers all day, 'ery day - which always left me wondering what show they were watching because as far as I could see Saji was mostly a stone round Setsuna's neck, they barely seemed to talk and the 00 Raiser was an awful looking mess that destroyed the style of the 00 when it was hooked up. It was pretty obvious they were friends, but they never came off as particularly close friends even factoring in Setsuna's stoicism. And I say that as someone who loved Saji's role with Louise as a civilian eye view of the war in season one. If they were going to put him in Celestial Being they should have kept him with Ian as an engineer and play to his actual strengths, helping upgrade and/or finish the design of the 00 over the course of the season so it could do the burst thing he uses in the finale to help stop the fighting while gaining an appreciation for why they're doing what they're doing that he was lacking in season one and that war is sometimes a necessary thing regardless of how awful it might be. As is though, he was just kind of a nuisance that seemed to hold Setsuna back as much as he helped him. tsob fucked around with this message at 15:23 on May 23, 2013 |
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May 23, 2013 15:18
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A friend of mine who likes 0079 and CCA, but can't sit through Zeta or ZZ, wants to see Unicorn. Is there a good guide somewhere online that covers everything for someone who wants to watch Unicorn?
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May 23, 2013 16:17
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Tae posted:What, shooting Schenberg in his frozen head wasn't enough of a dick move? Course not! There's no end to the douchbaggery of Alejandro Corner!
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May 23, 2013 16:41
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Raku posted:A friend of mine who likes 0079 and CCA, but can't sit through Zeta or ZZ, wants to see Unicorn. Is there a good guide somewhere online that covers everything for someone who wants to watch Unicorn? Alternatively he could just watch Unicorn and not bother with Zeta/ZZ. There are a lot of people who liked Unicorn without watching them. If his problem is that he can't marathon the shows just have him watch two or three episodes a week by the time he's done the last Unicorn episode will have come out. http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/timeline.php
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May 23, 2013 17:15
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His problem was that he didn't like Zeta after I made him watch like 10 episodes (which is admittedly a huge slog until like, Hong Kong). So ZZ is sort of out the question.
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May 23, 2013 17:44
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chumbler posted:So 00 should've become G Gundam? Can we keep Hallelujah? I loved every scene he was in. He gave that HRL pilot one of the most brutal deaths in all of gundam. Monaghan fucked around with this message at 19:52 on May 23, 2013 |
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May 23, 2013 19:49
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Personally rather than ditching those two characters entirely because the writer's couldn't think what to do with them after a while I'd rather wish for the writer's to have a good idea of what to do with them if I'm going to wish for something - if nothing else they had some nice mech units it'd be a shame to lose, and I rather like'd H/Allelujah because Hal was loving insane at times and fun to watch and Al had some nice scenes like the one where he rescued the people with Sergei early on in season one. The whole super soldier program could probably have been worked more centrally in to the plot, giving the various factions or united army a new weapon to use against Celestial Being for a start by having squads of super soldiers in mass produced suits to contend with.
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May 23, 2013 20:08
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Fixing Al is easy. Give him a god damned motivation besides MARIE. His biggest problem is that he basically turns into a prototype Gundam AGE female character. He has absolutely no plot beyond "My love interest" and the second he rescues her it becomes quickly apparent that she has all the interesting plot and in any other universe she'd be the one piloting the Gundam because she's actually got poo poo to do on the battlefield, the powers and piloting skill to back it up, and the desire to be there. The closest Al has to plot after that is "Will Hallelujah show up again?" and the answer is "yes, in a completely non-dramatic way because the duo seems to get along fine now." Even if Allelujah's plot was "help Soma get over her murderboner for Andrei" that would have been more than it was now, but as it stands Setsuna just resolves that through ~brain magic.~ Admittedly that's also partially a problem with Setsuna's plot as well.
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May 23, 2013 20:18
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ImpAtom posted:Fixing Al is easy. Clearly the best solution would be to have Al die very early in S2 and have Soma take over for him. And not give her a split personality, she was much more fun when she was just grumpy and super-professional. I did like Al for that scene in season 1 where he has a drink with Sumaragi in the spaceship, it was a really nice little bit of interaction between secondary protagonists.
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May 23, 2013 20:40
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The funniest/most pathetic part about Al is that he finishes his arc and achieves his long-standing goal(finding/rescuing MARIE), is happy for like a week, and then she spends literally the entire rest of the series cold shouldering him mercilessly while he flails around like a pathetic idiot until Setsuna fixes everything with GN magic. It's like they figured "hey let's resolve his arc so we have more time to focus on other people" and then completely forgot about him every time they were doing up an episode storyboard.
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May 23, 2013 22:33
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Monaghan posted:Can we keep Hallelujah? I loved every scene he was in. He gave that HRL pilot one of the most brutal deaths in all of gundam. That guy and that his DYNAMIC KILL during the final battle of S2. Holy poo poo I was cheering.
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May 23, 2013 23:02
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I can't believe I just noticed this - but has anyone ever written about 00 and the idea of "doubles"? In hindsight, that would seem like such an important part of the series, with the Innovators all having counterparts, Neil/Lyle, H/Allelujah, and Soma/Marie, but I don't remember if there was a thematic point to it all.
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May 23, 2013 23:38
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Honestly, the entire show could've been about Andrei and I'd have thrown Sunrise all the dollars. Most interesting character in S2, imo.
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May 23, 2013 23:54
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I caught this in Unicorn, thought it was funny: I've noticed that in anime if something is supposed to be super technical they'll just use english labels for everything. Sometimes the words are a little nonsensical, but the spelling is fine. This shot just looks like somebody said 'gently caress it', and mashed the keyboard. EDIT: Haha [DANGAR] I didn't know this was a normal thing. bring back old gbs fucked around with this message at 01:25 on May 24, 2013 |
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May 24, 2013 00:19
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If you like that, you'll love ZeWORLD OF poo poo
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May 24, 2013 00:21
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ACanofPepsi posted:I've noticed that in anime if something is supposed to be super technical they'll just use english labels for everything. Sometimes the words are a little nonsensical, but the spelling is fine. This shot just looks like somebody said 'gently caress it', and mashed the keyboard. Gundam has a long tradition of not giving a poo poo about english labels. 
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May 24, 2013 00:56
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 "Hey uh we need some technical stuff. What processors do the computers around here have?" There was also the medical readout on Heero in Gundam Wing that had the TWAIN documentation for an early version of Acrobat scrolling by in the background.
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May 24, 2013 01:54
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Adam Strange posted:I can't believe I just noticed this - but has anyone ever written about 00 and the idea of "doubles"? In hindsight, that would seem like such an important part of the series, with the Innovators all having counterparts, Neil/Lyle, H/Allelujah, and Soma/Marie, but I don't remember if there was a thematic point to it all. For a while people thought there would be something to it but it ended up being very shallow. It's a reoccurring theme but more along the lines of Wing's 'everyone has a number name' than something that actually is meaningful. It is, however, one of the few things that exists in both seasons and the movie but they never really do anything with it and it isn't really consistent. A lot of it seems really really pointless too. You've got an inexplicable clone of Nena named Mina showing up for no reason except to cut the actress a paycheck for example.
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May 24, 2013 02:20
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ImpAtom posted:For a while people thought there would be something to it but it ended up being very shallow. It's a reoccurring theme but more along the lines of Wing's 'everyone has a number name' than something that actually is meaningful. It is, however, one of the few things that exists in both seasons and the movie but they never really do anything with it and it isn't really consistent. A lot of it seems really really pointless too. You've got an inexplicable clone of Nena named Mina showing up for no reason except to cut the actress a paycheck for example. I'm convinced that, at this point, Sunrise is in some sort of debt with Rie Kugimiya and Keiji Fujiwara. But yeah, a lot of the things that could have been explored more in-depth about 00 just felt as kind of afterthoughts. Wasn't Sunrise experiencing some sort of trouble around these years, though? According to what a few friends heard here and there, both Code Geass and 00 were supposed to be 4 uninterrupted cours.
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May 24, 2013 03:52
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ImpAtom posted:For a while people thought there would be something to it but it ended up being very shallow. It's a reoccurring theme but more along the lines of Wing's 'everyone has a number name' than something that actually is meaningful. It is, however, one of the few things that exists in both seasons and the movie but they never really do anything with it and it isn't really consistent. A lot of it seems really really pointless too. You've got an inexplicable clone of Nena named Mina showing up for no reason except to cut the actress a paycheck for example. Yeah, Wing and the numbers-based naming scheme always seemed purposely meaningless but I guess the fact the series is literally named "double O" made me do a double take. There were a lot of interesting elements of 00 that really don't quite cohere naturally and it's really too bad - there was clearly some thought put into it beyond just making Another Gundam Series.
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May 24, 2013 04:15
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Wark Say posted:I'm convinced that, at this point, Sunrise is in some sort of debt with Rie Kugimiya and Keiji Fujiwara. But yeah, a lot of the things that could have been explored more in-depth about 00 just felt as kind of afterthoughts. That said, AGE's initial pitch from its creator was a freaking SEVENTY SIX episodes uninterrupted (i.e., roughly 18ish months of content). Not sure how Sunrise managed to talk him out of that initial pitch, to be honest.
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May 24, 2013 04:41
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AradoBalanga posted:Geass was supposed to be a full-blown 52-episode series when Goro Taniguchi initially planned it out. Sunrise forced him to break it up into two 26-episode seasons, causing a lot of the changes in R2, if memory serves. Not sure about 00, though. But it wouldn't surprise me. "We're sorry, we just can't give you that many episodes." "Fine. I'll make up for it by cutting out all scenes involving female characters."
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May 24, 2013 04:46
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Just think of all the final battle interrupting moon shopping trips he could have written with those episodes! Destiny 
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May 24, 2013 04:48
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AradoBalanga posted:Geass was supposed to be a full-blown 52-episode series when Goro Taniguchi initially planned it out. Sunrise forced him to break it up into two 26-episode seasons, causing a lot of the changes in R2, if memory serves. Not sure about 00, though. But it wouldn't surprise me. While Taniguchi might have originally wanted to make a 50 episode series and only got approval for 25 episodes at first, most of the issues with the continuation weren't necessarily a result of that decision. In fact, the entire first season as we know it was already significantly changed from the original idea for the show in its earliest planning stages. But R2's changes had everything to do with a time slot move to prime time. If the show had gotten another 25 episodes without moving it and thus never trying to play the "attract a new audience" game, then several things might well have been different. wielder fucked around with this message at 04:59 on May 24, 2013 |
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May 24, 2013 04:55
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ImpAtom posted:For a while people thought there would be something to it but it ended up being very shallow. It's a reoccurring theme but more along the lines of Wing's 'everyone has a number name' than something that actually is meaningful. It is, however, one of the few things that exists in both seasons and the movie but they never really do anything with it and it isn't really consistent. A lot of it seems really really pointless too. You've got an inexplicable clone of Nena named Mina showing up for no reason except to cut the actress a paycheck for example. If I recall correctly Mina was a cynical fan-driven creation based on the fact that Nena was winning character popularity polls for 00 in a big way in Japan at the time and there was no logical way to bring her back from the dead since her death was very blatantly on screen. Then again that didn't stop them from doing it with Mwu to the point where they loving photoshopped his shattered helmet floating through space out of the SEED home release.
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May 24, 2013 13:43
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Wait, Mina was Nena's clone? Was this stated in the movie?
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May 24, 2013 13:54
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It's more like Nina was Mina's clone - the Trinity team were designer babies, and Mina was a relative of whoever donated the genetic material used to create Nina. Yeah. And no, it wasn't explained in the film.
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May 24, 2013 14:03
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It doesn't say she's a clone outright, but it does a lot of pointing in that direction.Kanos posted:If I recall correctly Mina was a cynical fan-driven creation based on the fact that Nena was winning character popularity polls for 00 in a big way in Japan at the time and there was no logical way to bring her back from the dead since her death was very blatantly on screen. One thing I "liked" about SEED/Destiny is that when they had characters come back from the dead/faked out being dead, they at least sorta acknowledged that they were in giant robots blowing up. Waldfield lost an arm, Athrun and Kira are bedridden for a few days (I know it's not much, but it's something, right?). They even have a quick shot of Mwu's post-explosion body wrapped like a mummy in Destiny. 00 doesn't have that. Patrick and Ali both got what I thought were Giant-Robot for "He's dead", and in the end of the first season, are shown to be totally fine. Now did I miss some quick throwaway line where they say how badly they got hosed up, or is it just "Yeah, they're alive. No, we won't say how."?
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May 24, 2013 14:09
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Kuroyama posted:00 doesn't have that. Patrick and Ali both got what I thought were Giant-Robot for "He's dead", and in the end of the first season, are shown to be totally fine. Now did I miss some quick throwaway line where they say how badly they got hosed up, or is it just "Yeah, they're alive. No, we won't say how."? Those actually both made sense. Patrick's GN-X took a hit to the top of the torso while the cockpit was in the groin (and visibly not damaged) and Lockon hit the Throne Zwei in the legs, the cockpit being higher up.
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May 24, 2013 15:04
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More pertinently, it's Patrick,
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May 24, 2013 15:06
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