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I've just moved into a townhouse and I'm looking to get a 5.1 system to go with a 50" plasma. I've got just enough OCD that I'd like to buy new and I'd like to get matching stuff. Based on reading this thread I've got three reasonably comparable setups that I can't really decide between. Currently I've got a DVR box and an Xbox 360 that doesn't have an HDMI port, so I'll have to use component inputs to the receiver. In the future I'll either get a blu-ray player or wait for the PS4/Xbone and use that for blu-ray. I don't really anticipate getting anything else that'll be hooked up to it other than those things. The three systems I'm looking at are a) the 5.1 Pioneer Andrew Jones system that's been mentioned a few times b) Polk Audio Monitor series, 55Ts for the fronts, 15C for center, 35B for surrounds and a PSW10 for the sub since that series doesn't have a sub. c) Polk Audio TSi series, TSi300s for the fronts, CS10 for center, TSi100s for surrounds and again, PSW10 for the sub. The b) option is about $100 cheaper just using amazon/newegg and not shopping around too much, but other than that I don't really know enough to decide between these setups, or if there's something else in this price range that I should also consider. For all three I've planned on the Onkyo TX-NR616 but honestly I'm not sure if that's the best/cheapest option that I can go with. I'm not too worried about specific features since I don't have much to compare it with, other than my parents 25+ year old 2.0 setup. Other suggestions for a receiver would be welcome if something more appropriate fits my needs.
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May 27, 2013 14:45
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All of those setups you will be happy with. I would lean towards the Andrew Jones kit, but I wouldn't go near the subwoofers in any of those lineups. The Polk 10" subwoofer is not good by any measure other than perhaps the price. If you can find a used klipsch sub 12 or rw12D they are much much better. The klipsch sw115 is also good, but might be a bit more pricey. The BIC 12" can also be had for cheap and isn't too bad. Personally if I only had enough for the Polk 10", I would just go without and save.
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May 27, 2013 17:54
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Does your caution about the subs also include the Pioneer SW-8MK2 Andrew Jones? I haven't seen it brought up before about that setup though after looking I have seen issues with the PSW10. The SW-115 is definitely more than I want to spend, and even the other two Klipsch's are probably slightly higher than I'd like. Which BIC are you talking about? The F12 seems the most popular but there are other 12" subs that they make. What would I be losing if I went with that over the Klipsch's?
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May 27, 2013 19:33
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pik_d posted:Does your caution about the subs also include the Pioneer SW-8MK2 Andrew Jones? I haven't seen it brought up before about that setup though after looking I have seen issues with the PSW10. Yes, the andrew jones 8" sub isn't good either. Its not that they're bad quality, it's just that they don't do much that the full range speakers can't do already. The BIC F12 is one of the better cheap subs. Bic F12 and V1220 measurements, also vs the klipsch rw12D (it stomps the BIC) http://www.avsforum.com/t/1391243/bic-v1220-and-bic-f12-omnimic-frequency-response-graphs Here is the Andrew Jones Sub. (Not Good) http://www.avsforum.com/t/1401651/pioneer-sw-8-omnimic-frequency-response-graphs#post_21820292 Klipsch RW12D (Surprisingly good for the price) http://www.avsforum.com/t/1390563/klipsch-rw-12d-omnimic-frequency-response-graphs Klipsch Sub 12 (Synergy line) Seems to play well down to 24hz in this guy's room. YMMV. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1107473/svs-pb10-nsd-vs-klipsch-sub-12#post_15554460 If you can find a Klipsch Sub 12 for $150 which they do pop up on the used market from time to time, I would jump on that. Basically, my advice is just to hold off on a subwoofer until you can find a good one for a price you're willing to pay.
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May 28, 2013 02:02
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You know, I have the PSW125, which to me sounds pretty good. I can't really let it stretch its legs since I live in an apartment, though, so YMMV.
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May 28, 2013 05:40
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jonathan posted:Basically, my advice is just to hold off on a subwoofer until you can find a good one for a price you're willing to pay. I've done this, I saw the RW-12D on newegg for almost $100 less than on amazon.com but I waited too long and it's sold out already. Even if it means paying more I'd rather buy new so I'll just wait until it shows up again in the #300 price range.
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May 28, 2013 12:25
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KillHour posted:You know, I have the PSW125, which to me sounds pretty good. I can't really let it stretch its legs since I live in an apartment, though, so YMMV. I'm stupid. It's a PSW505, which is only 40W less than the RW-12. The frequency response isn't quite as low (28Hz vs 24Hz), but the THD is better, according to specs. I don't have response graphs to compare them, but it puts out a lot of kick for not a lot of money. Newegg's having a sale: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882290130 Edit: Found one. http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?19484-psw505-frequency-response Looks pretty good to me, but I'm sure jonathan will have more to weigh in on. 
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May 28, 2013 17:40
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KillHour posted:I'm stupid. It's a PSW505, which is only 40W less than the RW-12. The frequency response isn't quite as low (28Hz vs 24Hz), but the THD is better, according to specs. I don't have response graphs to compare them, but it puts out a lot of kick for not a lot of money. I can also recommend the PSW505. It puts out more then enough to annoy your neighbors even if you don't live in an apartment. I picked mine up this weekend for $150 and it fixed a whole lot of problems I had.
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May 28, 2013 20:48
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Wasabi the J posted:Is there a 5.1 amp that would play nice with MMG's with MMGW surrounds that doesn't cost $5000? I currently have the MMGWs and I'm thinking of getting the MMG for more range and power. Your best bet is either Emotiva or Outlaw. I happen to be using a Emotiva UPA-200 with MMGs for the front and it runs them fine. An XPA-5 would probably be sufficient. Philthy fucked around with this message at 21:46 on May 28, 2013 |
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May 28, 2013 21:43
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KillHour posted:I'm stupid. It's a PSW505, which is only 40W less than the RW-12. The frequency response isn't quite as low (28Hz vs 24Hz), but the THD is better, according to specs. I don't have response graphs to compare them, but it puts out a lot of kick for not a lot of money. Can't compare the graph to the other graphs because its a different room, and with subs you're listening to the sub playing the room as an instrument, however in this guys room, the frequency response is very good. Solid bass down to 25hz. I don't know what the total SPL is of that sub, but if its only 40watts down from the klipsch, with a similar dimension box, it will probably be very close. If you can get a response like that in your own room, that would be a steal for $150.
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May 28, 2013 22:33
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That sub seems to be on par with the Klipsch Sub 12 which is a good sub for the price as well. If someone were to buy 2 of these, frequency response would be very very good. Four of them placed around the room would be very very good. 3 or 4 of these would give you an audio system that never needs an upgrade.
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May 28, 2013 22:40
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So, dumb subwoofer question. Is there some reason that there is (at least to my knowledge) no crossover between home audio and car audio drivers when it comes to subwoofers? Are the high end car audio drivers designed completely differently to deal with the heat and vibration of a car? The 12" drivers I've seen pictures of for home audio, are comically different looking than a good 12" driver for car audio (and also much cheaper), and I'm just curious as to why the vast difference, and why a good subwoofer for home use wouldn't make a good subwoofer for car use, and vs. versa. I assume there is good technical reasons, but I was wondering if anyone here knows what those are, and could explain in reasonably simple terms.
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May 29, 2013 01:53
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Couple reasons: Heat and vibration are the first Secondly, you need a lot more driver, either in motor strength or excursion or both, plus the power handling that goes with it to get the output you want in a limited space enclosure. In home theater you can get good output as a function of the enclosure. For example, the t6 tapped horn design that does over 120db in a room from a single 8" driver. You can't fit that in a vehicle other than perhaps an Econoline Van. So instead of a good efficient enclosure, you just throw gobs of power at a driver that can move lots of air.
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May 29, 2013 02:12
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It's irrational as hell, but I want one so bad.  http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-FBQ6200-31-Band-Graphic-Equalizer/dp/B0002Z82MQ/ref=pd_cp_MI_1
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May 29, 2013 03:57
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jonathan posted:So instead of a good efficient enclosure, you just throw gobs of power at a driver that can move lots of air. Thanks. I suppose the price differential is because of the heat/vibration resistance in the design. I guess if I ever decided that I needed serious bass
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May 29, 2013 08:09
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The Locator posted:I suppose the price differential is because of the heat/vibration resistance in the design. Also, cold resistance, I guess. Anyway...
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May 29, 2013 09:14
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The Locator posted:Thanks. Use them to make a pair of these: http://raindefence.hubpages.com/hub/How-to-make-build-your-own-DIY-sonosub-style-cylinder-subwoofer You'll never need a subwoofer upgrade again.
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May 29, 2013 14:49
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I'm a bit confused about Ohms. My front and centres are Wharfedale Diamonds (9.1 and 10.CC respectively) with an impedance of 6 Ω each. I have now found two piece of junk surrounds in my basement with an impedance of 4 Ω according to their label. I've hooked them up to my Onkyo TX-NR414 and everything is working, but I've checked the manual for the Onkyo and it says it has an impedance of 6 Ω. Online guides say the consequences will be everything from funny sound to an exploding amplifier. Does anyone know what (if anything) will actually happen?
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May 29, 2013 23:50
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HTJ posted:I'm a bit confused about Ohms. http://hometoys.com/emagazine.php?url=/htinews/feb04/articles/polk/impedence.htm Basically, a speaker's impedance tells you how much current it draws. A low impedance speaker draws more current. Amplifiers have a "nominal" impedance, but as long as you make sure you're not overloading your amp by asking for more current than it can provide, you're fine. If you try to put a bunch of 2 ohm speakers on an amp with 8 ohm nominal impedance, you'll probably blow it up. KillHour fucked around with this message at 01:20 on May 30, 2013 |
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May 30, 2013 01:00
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Many of the DIY subwoofer plans I've been seeing seem like they're specifically designed to annoy neighbors up to a mile away. They're also impractically huge. What would be a good, reasonably-sized match for one of the Waveguide speaker kits? The flat-pack sub kits on that site would probably do a good job, but I've been reading about sonotube subs and how they can offer better performance than sealed enclosures. Are there any good designs for a sonotube that's, like, 3 feet tall or so? Or does it only become worth it when the thing reaches the ceiling and can barely fit through doors?
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May 30, 2013 15:44
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KillHour posted:http://hometoys.com/emagazine.php?url=/htinews/feb04/articles/polk/impedence.htm Even with 2 ohm speakers you won't blow the amp as long as you stay at the nominal wattage. I wouldn't crank my amp up to max while having them hooked up. Even if you do go above it, most amplifiers have an internal thermal and current overload that will trip to keep from doing damage to your amp. BTW, their are impedance matchers for speakers. However, they do consume a certain amount of the current.
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May 30, 2013 17:09
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Skeleton Ape posted:Many of the DIY subwoofer plans I've been seeing seem like they're specifically designed to annoy neighbors up to a mile away. They're also impractically huge. What would be a good, reasonably-sized match for one of the Waveguide speaker kits? You can make them any size you want: http://www.subwoofer-builder.com/sonosub.htm
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May 30, 2013 17:42
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Skeleton Ape posted:Many of the DIY subwoofer plans I've been seeing seem like they're specifically designed to annoy neighbors up to a mile away. They're also impractically huge. What would be a good, reasonably-sized match for one of the Waveguide speaker kits? Its all about tradeoffs. There are several common enclosure types, and they each have strength and weaknesses. Some are performance related, others are size and aesthetics. With any subwoofer, you have to choose what the priorities are, and what you can let slide. For a compact sonotube design, I would go for two 24" high sonotubes, each with 2 drivers in it (dual opposed). You could finish them to look nice, and could be used as end tables or whatever. The nice thing about dual opposed is that they cancel eahother out from vibration. If you go to my subwoofer thread in this forum, we can give you some more detailed info.
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May 30, 2013 23:17
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Roger. Just made a post in the sub thread.
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May 31, 2013 18:48
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I feel like I just took a leap into a rabbit hole without a bottom. I've been perfectly content with my home audio system for quite a few years, but after reading a good chunk of this thread I upgraded my receiver to get rid of a huge rats-nest of wiring, and also to add the Audyssey EQ for the room. I got the Onkyo TX-NR616, and really liked the upgrade, but the old cheapo subwoofer really was no longer up to the task, so after someone posted the link, and the nice response chart for the Polk PSW505, I got one of those to replace it. The PSW505 was a huge leap up in bass quality and volume, but now that I've had the taste, I of course want even more of a good thing. The room layout I'm working with is somewhat limited, as all of the wiring is built into the house, and I'm not ready to tackle a re-wiring project, so the TV/AVR need to stay where they are. My current rear surrounds are wired through the ceiling, and are perfectly fine for what they need to do. Here is a terrible paint, not-to-scale drawing of the great room that everything is in. Link to my post in the other thread with a picture of the front http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=2385480&perpage=40&pagenumber=70#post415356787  I'm using Polk R50's for the front speakers, and an old set of Polk bookshelf/center for surround and center. I will probably upgrade the center in the future, but for what it does, the existing one seems pretty ok (The Audyssey crossed it at 120hz). Audyssey crossed the R50's at 40hz, and per the advice in this thread, I changed that to 80hz and have the sub using the unfiltered LFE in, and adjust the sub from the Onkyo. I need to decide now, whether I should get another PSW505, and if so, where it should go. There is no room at the front of the room unless I stack it on the existing one, and the sliding door prevents me from putting it (or the existing one) in the corner. If I put one in the back of the room, will I run into a problem with that long of a line-level run from the AVR to the rear sub? My measuring/math says it would be about 30' to the right rear corner of the room, or about 40' to the left side of the couch. The other alternative, is to just go all-in, and order the flat-packs and build a pair of boxes, and get one of those Behringer amps to drive a pair of home-builts. That would get fairly pricey, as I would need to buy the flat-packs, the amp, and all of the clamps needed to assemble them (I don't do woodworking stuff, which is why I'd need to use kits). I'd also need to consider whether my existing Rockford drivers would be up to that amp, as they only have a power rating of 600w RMS, 1200w Peak, and the amplifier (Ep4000) is quite a bit higher than that. New drivers would of course add that into the cost as well. If I went that route, I'm still not sure where I'd put the subs, they might end up at the same locations I'm considering above, which would mean that to minimize speaker runs, the amp would end up at the back of the room, meaning I still run into a 30'+ line level run (I'd just run it along the base-board for now, as I don't even want to consider getting up in the attic now that summer is starting up in earnest). I think the R50's sound great, but would I be better off upgrading those, rather than jumping into the deep-end with the amp/subs, or would that just make me want better subs even more? The Locator fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Jun 2, 2013 |
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Jun 2, 2013 00:36
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The EP 4000 is good for around 650watts RMS with a 4 ohm load, and 1100 or so with a 2 ohm load. If your amp is 600 or so @ 4 ohms, then the EP won't be much of an upgrade. Maybe .2 db more headroom. Instead of hassling with DIY speakers, I would just keep adding those Polk subs. You will probably find that 2 of them will meet your needs. As for placement, you will need some basic measurement equipment to find the best spots, but general guidelines state that placing them on each end of the room, or opposite corners will yield good results. Its also a good idea to keep the subs equal distance from the main listening area. Symmetry isn't important to sound when it comes to subs. jonathan fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Jun 2, 2013 |
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Jun 2, 2013 23:51
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jonathan posted:The EP 4000 is good for around 650watts RMS with a 4 ohm load, and 1100 or so with a 2 ohm load. I'm with jonathan, here. Adding another 505 is going to get you another 3 db, which is probably going to be enough. If you really want to go with DIY subs, though, I'll gladly pay the shipping to take that 505 off your hands.  Kidding... kind of. Edit: Your next bang-for-the-buck upgrade is definitely a better center channel. KillHour fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Jun 3, 2013 |
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Jun 3, 2013 01:33
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Thanks, both of you. I'll order another 505 this week. At what point do I need to start worrying about the length of the line-level sub run? If I use a decent quality cable like this 50' Mediabridge is there anything I should be concerned about? jonathan posted:The EP 4000 is good for around 650watts RMS with a 4 ohm load, and 1100 or so with a 2 ohm load. I'm not currently using the Rockford drivers at all, as they are from a car system which I no longer have (the car that is). I would use those 12" drivers in the flat-packs, but would need an amp to drive them with. The Polk 505 is 300 watts RMS, not 600, so I would hope that going to a pair of DIY using those and an EP would be more than .2 db gain. Also, from the AV Set up thread, I went to the Epik site. They made a (now discontinued) 18" driver with a full 3" excursion. 
The Locator fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Jun 3, 2013 |
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Jun 3, 2013 05:17
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Adding a second sub (and second amp) will gain you 6db. But really its going to soften the peaks and fill the valleys caused by your room. That's the most important part. The extra headroom is a bonus, and should extend your low end a bit further.
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Jun 3, 2013 05:26
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The Locator posted:Thanks, both of you. That cable looks good. You shouldn't have to worry about interference at 40 feet, or even a bit more. I would guess that most RF interference usually occurs at frequencies way higher than the low pass filter on the sub, anyway.
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Jun 3, 2013 12:59
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I'm interested in getting a home theater setup to be used for movies and perhaps music. Right now all I have is a HTPC running xbmc. This is my living room in a mostly-to-scale picture (the doorway placement/size is rough). I don't have a ton of space or flexibility. 1. I live in Japan, so availability/prices will be terrible. The Onkyo 414 mentioned in the sub-$500 guide, for example, costs well over $500 here. If it's on Amazon.co.jp, I can get it and may be able to find it used. If not, I probably can't get it. 2. I'd like a 3.1 setup. There's no real room for anything behind the sofa. Also, I can't go through walls or under the floor, and because of all the doors I can't really go along the baseboard. 3. I'd like to stay in the sub-$1000 range. 4. I'm deaf in one ear, so making the perfect "surround sound" experience is definitely secondary to "good sound." With all of those nutty requirements... does anyone have any suggestions?  Worst-case scenario, I'll just end up going with a soundbar or something.
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Jun 4, 2013 03:05
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tarepanda posted:1. I live in Japan, so availability/prices will be terrible. Go Yamaha. Something like this, maybe: 2x NS-310 bookshelf speakers (God, I hope the links work): http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%A4%E...=yamaha+speaker NS-310 center channel speaker: http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%A4%E...70316012&sr=1-4 Yamaha RX-V573 receiver: http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%A4%E...ords=yamaha+573 Should leave you with about $350 for a sub if I understand the prices correctly. quote:Worst-case scenario, I'll just end up going with a soundbar or something. If you do, definitely go with a Yamaha.
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Jun 4, 2013 04:25
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Thanks a ton! I didn't expect anyone to actually go to Amazon and look around. Yamaha is OK, then? I was confused since I never really see anyone talk about their stuff and whenever I go to a high-end sound store, it's always Onkyo, Denon, McIntosh, Bowers & Wilkins, etc. So I figured they must be kind of crappy, like... Logitech or something.
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Jun 4, 2013 04:30
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tarepanda posted:Yamaha is OK, then? I was confused since I never really see anyone talk about their stuff and whenever I go to a high-end sound store, it's always Onkyo, Denon, McIntosh, Bowers & Wilkins, etc. So I figured they must be kind of crappy, like... Logitech or something. Yamaha is more than okay as far as receivers go. On par with Denon. They're not known for their speakers, however (though I'm sure they're better than Logitech).
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Jun 4, 2013 04:56
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Speaking of center channel speakers, as I mentioned mine needs an upgrade desperately. My price point is about $200, maybe a bit more if there is a significant upgrade for not a huge price increase. I was looking at this Polk - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CHHCAR0/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER It seems to have better response/specs than the Yamaha linked by Hob_Gadling, for the same price (at least on the US Amazon site). Is that a decent unit, or should I be looking at something else in that price range (say, up to $250 or so)? Thanks! E: Here is the set that my current center came from that I'm replacing - Doesn't even show the specs independently for the center - http://www.polkaudio.com/products/rm6900 The Locator fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 04:59
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Patch posted:Yamaha is more than okay as far as receivers go. On par with Denon. They're not known for their speakers, however (though I'm sure they're better than Logitech). Good to know! No offense to Hob_Gadling -- it was just a bit disconcerting since I've never really seen them around anywhere (despite being a domestic brand).
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Jun 4, 2013 05:55
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Patch posted:Yamaha is more than okay as far as receivers go. On par with Denon. They're not known for their speakers, however (though I'm sure they're better than Logitech). Not home speakers, no, but they have a ton of reasonably priced pro stuff that is popular. They're also well known for their instruments: as it happens, there's an 25-year old Yamaha piano next to me. Nothing wrong with the quality, the home stuff just isn't that competitively priced outside Japan in my opinion. For once that wasn't a problem. 
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Jun 4, 2013 15:16
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Hob_Gadling posted:Not home speakers, no, but they have a ton of reasonably priced pro stuff that is popular. They're also well known for their instruments: as it happens, there's an 25-year old Yamaha piano next to me. Nothing wrong with the quality, the home stuff just isn't that competitively priced outside Japan in my opinion. For once that wasn't a problem. Fun fact: A Yamaha professional-model trumpet costs slightly MORE in Tokyo than it does in Sweden. And that's including Swedish VAT of 25%... Sometimes global companies just have weird pricing policies.
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Jun 4, 2013 16:32
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If I were to buy speakera before a receiver, I ciuld still use them with my TV, right?
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Jun 4, 2013 23:13
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tarepanda posted:If I were to buy speakera before a receiver, I ciuld still use them with my TV, right? Nope, unpowered speakers will need an amplifier before you can get sound from them. If you're buying bookshelf or really efficient speakers, you might be able to grab a tiny cheap amp for them temporarily like I did in college: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001P2VV50/ However, if you like to listen loud or have big speakers, too small an amp can damage the speakers.
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Jun 4, 2013 23:18
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