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DesperateDan posted:So that's a no, you can't? Re-read my post? 
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Jun 10, 2013 20:53
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I'll repeat the question that I might have buried in  Why should fascists be allowed to walk unopposed down, say, Brick Lane?
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Jun 10, 2013 20:53
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Spacedad posted:Re-read my post? He asked for evidence, you provided allegations.
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Jun 10, 2013 20:53
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Cerebral Bore posted:He asked for evidence, you provided allegations. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/manchester/7943556.stm Even in this story you can hear them practically drooling at the opportunity to play oppressed martyrs.
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Jun 10, 2013 20:55
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Spacedad posted:Re-read my post? You are making claims you are not backing up with evidence **edit and that's not evidence of people taking pity on them, or it affecting their popularity in or around the 2009 elections or otherwise
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Jun 10, 2013 20:55
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Spacedad posted:Except the opposite happened back in 2009-ish when the BNP was on the rise - it was the BNP making fools out of themselves on the public stage that eventually did them in, while the 'direct action' fuckwits doing poo poo like attacking BNP meetings with hammers only helped give them an air of persecuted legitimacy during their rise. There is no way this could backfire at all, and I'm certainly not aware of any precedents.
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Jun 10, 2013 20:56
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Spacedad posted:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/manchester/7943556.stm And do you have any sort of evidence that the BNP playing oppressed martyrs actually worked? EDIT: Also what alternative would have worked better? Please also provide some supporting arguments and evidence for your claim.
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Jun 10, 2013 20:56
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What kind of arsehole feels sorry for a fascist when he gets his head kicked in anyway? "Aw pet lamb, he only wanted to express his opinion that All Muslims should be killed and those mean AntiFash kicked his head in."
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Jun 10, 2013 20:58
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Mr Cuddles posted:You have to fight the far right with logic and reason guys. I vote for absurdity and mockery. Make the hard men feel like babies. Make the not so hard men feel like fools.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:00
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I think it's the fear that antifascists may take it a step further and start being violent against the police and capitalists, or in any other way pose a threat to liberal democracy. I don't really feel the need to explain why this is retarded, but the gist of it is that antifascists don't believe in using violent terror to get our ideas across - militancy is a means, not an end.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:01
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Honestly Spacedad, you're just making yourself look bad by engaging with these idiots. If you just ignore them and let them make their points without responding, I'm sure the people reading this thread will see how moronic they are and side with you.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:01
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DesperateDan posted:You are making claims you are not backing up with evidence You made up some absurd conditions yourself you want me to meet that are irrelevant to the point I was making. This really is like talking to a creationist. quote:and that's not evidence of people taking pity on them, or it affecting their popularity in or around the 2009 elections or otherwise 2009 was around the time of their rise and getting smacked with a claw hammer to the face didn't exactly slow them down until the glorious humiliation in 2010.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:01
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Spacedad posted:You made up some absurd conditions yourself you want me to meet that are irrelevant to the point I was making. This really is like talking to a creationist. You made assertions that you can't back up. You claimed that by bashing the fash, people would feel sorry for them, and that influenced the 2009 election results. You cannot back those claims with evidence. Asking you to back up these assertions, which constituted the bulk of our conversation is not irrelevant whatsoever.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:12
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Gonzo McFee posted:What kind of arsehole feels sorry for a fascist when he gets his head kicked in anyway? I feel sympathy for a poorly educated, disenfranchised, and quite possibly empoverished person who instead of getting an education and welfare from his/her government is getting a boot in the face from an 'activist'.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:12
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Given that this pointless bickering has made the thread tepid and boring to read, does anyone have any other sources for this claim that the York mosque incident didn't happen? It wouldn't ultimately surprise me if there wasn't any proof for it having happened and the media just so happened to run with it. Of course, even if it did, it's not a sustainable way to oppose fascists, especially if it was only two (as claimed).
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Jun 10, 2013 21:13
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Here's something written by Morning Star reporter and UK D&D goon Rory MacKinnon. It's addressed specifically to the TeaDeeEll people but I think it is a good response to a lot of the attitudes displayed in this thread.quote:seems you folks have been happy to accommodate constructive criticism, so here’s what i’ve got. hope it helps Quoted from a larger article which you can find here that is highly recommended reading.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:13
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Why should fascists be allowed to walk unopposed down, say, Brick Lane? Why should Communists be allowed outside St Paul's, Parliament or Canary Wharf? The people marching would just as happily kill the people in them as a Fascist would in Brick lane. All be it, the Communists would have a whole host of better reason than "they look different to me", but the people would be just as dead. And well, we kind of hope that people can be changed by reason and by making things actually better for their communities. But as I said, targetted violence at the heads of movements is something I am more than happy to countenance and/or take part in. I just feel somewhat sorry when people because of their upbringing fall into bad habits and actions because they don't think about what or why they are doing it. I do feel sad, not as sad as I do when someone I actually care about is hurt or when someone who I agree with is attacked, but you've got to remember that they're still people and presumably love their families and possibly each other. They are still people and, despite everything, people are always entitled to pity if nothing else. Plus the kind of person who is a "hardcore" fascist would probably be upset by being pitied, so that is always nice. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Jun 10, 2013 |
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Jun 10, 2013 21:13
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Allan Assiduity posted:Given that this pointless bickering has made the thread tepid and boring to read, does anyone have any other sources for this claim that the York mosque incident didn't happen? It wouldn't ultimately surprise me if there wasn't any proof for it having happened and the media just so happened to run with it. Wouldn't surprise me if it turns out to be a load of old bollocks that the press have run with.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:17
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Lady Gaza posted:So until the government can be forced to take action against fascist or hate groups like the KKK (that's assuming it's a foregone conclusion), what happens to all the ethnic minorities and left wingers and other fascist targets in the mean time? Are they supposed to wait patiently? There is nothing wrong with them or people who want to protect them taking up arms in defense. That's not the kind of violence I'm objecting to. quote:I saw a video of some antifa in Greece who went and destroyed some Golden Dawn offices at night while they were unoccupied. I'd say that's classed as self defense as they were disrupting the ability of the fascists to organise. To the people decrying antifa tactics, would that be considered 'too far'? Breaking into an office to destroy it? Definitely not self defense. Not really violence either per se - more property destruction. I'm not sure if it's helping given golden dawn's public relations with trying to convince greek people that they're for law and order. Greece is all kinds of hosed up now though - the infiltration of the police forces by golden dawn sort of turns any sense of law enforcement on its head. When cops openly become criminals on behalf of fascists, law pretty much breaks down and it's almost kind of a lost cause. I could certainly see justifying vigilantism in the instance of fighting for survival against corrupt police collaborating with fascists. This is a very extreme situation of course.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:17
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Good to see lots of no-nonsense badasses active in this thread  With heroes like you guys hammering away at your keyboards, the 'fash' will be defeated in no time!
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Jun 10, 2013 21:18
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Spacedad posted:You try living in the US where the phrase 'liberal' means something very different, and even if you know better, you're still bombarded with it so much that you reflexively think of it that incorrect way. Jesus Christ Spacedad, just look up the loving word already. Stop getting angry when people use words the way Americans don't.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:18
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Byolante posted:I feel sympathy for a poorly educated, disenfranchised, and quite possibly empoverished person who instead of getting an education and welfare from his/her government is getting a boot in the face from an 'activist'. Plenty of people come from this background and don't become literal Nazis. Especially in Britain.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:19
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LP97S posted:Jesus Christ Spacedad, just look up the loving word already. Stop getting angry when people use words the way Americans don't. You misunderstand me - I'm angry at America for bringing me up on bad knowledge about the term 'liberal', not anyone here. DesperateDan posted:You made assertions that you can't back up. You claimed that by bashing the fash, people would feel sorry for them, and that influenced the 2009 election results. You cannot back those claims with evidence. Asking you to back up these assertions, which constituted the bulk of our conversation is not irrelevant whatsoever. Edit: That's not what I claimed. You're getting into specifics I didn't make assertions about, and pushing the level of 'success' to something I didn't even suggest - at the least the incident of direct action didn't hurt their cause, and it certainly resulted in them being blithering twats crying crocodile tears over it. Asking for an alternative to the event is silly - the only 'alternative' is to not attack them with claw hammers. Whatever else you want to do to fight the BNP is up to you - I just hope it's more intellectually serious than committing assault. Spacedad fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Jun 10, 2013 |
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Jun 10, 2013 21:24
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Umiapik posted:Good to see lots of no-nonsense badasses active in this thread gently caress off, this isn't about keyboard heroes making hay so they can look cool. This is about an ineffectual and flippant response to a very real threat from people who are spreading violence and fear in British communities. You can sit here and be a dick all you like but don't pretend like nothing is happening just because your kid's school isn't the one being burned down by skinheads.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:26
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Umiapik posted:Good to see lots of no-nonsense badasses active in this thread Duck Monster, Serotonin and goddamnedtwisto, all posters in this thread, have already said they have taken part in plenty of direct action against fascism, violent or not. Have you taken part in any direct action? Ever? gently caress off with this disingenuous bullshit.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:27
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Allan Assiduity posted:Given that this pointless bickering has made the thread tepid and boring to read, does anyone have any other sources for this claim that the York mosque incident didn't happen? It wouldn't ultimately surprise me if there wasn't any proof for it having happened and the media just so happened to run with it. Read racist gently caress-face's Pam Geller's article about how the brave EDL defended England from the muslim hordes or about Poor wittle Tommy getting locked up. There's plenty of evidence that the EDL might get invited by hateful bigots like that.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:27
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Josef bugman posted:Why should Communists be allowed outside St Paul's, Parliament or Canary Wharf? The people marching would just as happily kill the people in them as a Fascist would in Brick lane. All be it, the Communists would have a whole host of better reason than "they look different to me", but the people would be just as dead. There's a very, very, VERY important difference between the inhabitants of Brick Lane and the inhabitants of Parliament, Canary Wharf, and St. Pauls. Can you tell me what it is? It's nothing at all to do with the colour of their skins.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:33
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goddamnedtwisto posted:There's a very, very, VERY important difference between the inhabitants of Brick Lane and the inhabitants of Parliament, Canary Wharf, and St. Pauls. Can you tell me what it is? It's nothing at all to do with the colour of their skins. They have a lot of power, the people in Brick Lane do not. Both are still just as dead and the reasoning is better for the powerful ones. But yes you are right, that is why leaving leaderless and targetting the reasons for support are important. I just do not like the idea that we have to kill and maim other people in order to get a point across, if that is the case and "might makes right" then why bother with the whole idea of justice.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:44
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Byolante posted:I feel sympathy for a poorly educated, disenfranchised, and quite possibly empoverished person who instead of getting an education and welfare from his/her government is getting a boot in the face from an 'activist'. I agree. Therefore we should just sit and watch when said person goes and burns down mosques, terrorizes entire communities and brutally beats some guys because they looked foreign. Spacedad posted:Breaking into an office to destroy it? Definitely not self defense. Not really violence either per se - more property destruction. I'm not sure if it's helping given golden dawn's public relations with trying to convince greek people that they're for law and order. Hampering the ability of literal nazis to organize the public beatings of undesirables isn't self-defense now? See, your idea of self-defense seems to be sitting at home until the fash can muster up an overwhelming force and come for you. Why should we adopt losing tactics just so that people like you can feel righteous about themselves? Spacedad posted:Greece is all kinds of hosed up now though - the infiltration of the police forces by golden dawn sort of turns any sense of law enforcement on its head. When cops openly become criminals on behalf of fascists, law pretty much breaks down and it's almost kind of a lost cause. I could certainly see justifying vigilantism in the instance of fighting for survival against corrupt police collaborating with fascists. This is a very extreme situation of course. This is the situation that inevitably happens when you let the fash grow strong enough. Again, we bash the fash so that the situation will not get this bad. Also you've still to demostrate, both in theoretical and practical terms, that active resistance agaist the fash ends up strengthening the fascist movement. Josef bugman posted:They have a lot of power, the people in Brick Lane do not. Both are still just as dead and the reasoning is better for the powerful ones. The difference is that the people in Westminster have quite a few armed men to protect them, the people in Brick Lane do not.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:47
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Cerebral Bore posted:The difference is that the people in Westminster have quite a few armed men to protect them, the people in Brick Lane do not. They do, except that the ones that do are lovely, stupid and racist. So yeah, is there any point in which I have disagreed with you guys going out and beating up fascists? Other than saying it can sometimes be inefficient? Or is this another "either with us or against us" thing?
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Jun 10, 2013 21:52
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Josef bugman posted:They have a lot of power, the people in Brick Lane do not. Both are still just as dead and the reasoning is better for the powerful ones. I don't particularly want to kill anyone either. I do, however, believe that any direct action used to protect the powerless from the fascists is proportionate because fascist ideology represents an existential threat to entire races. When you put it in those terms, a kick in the head suddenly sounds pretty loving restrained to me.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:55
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Cerebral Bore posted:Hampering the ability of literal nazis to organize the public beatings of undesirables isn't self-defense now? See, your idea of self-defense seems to be sitting at home until the fash can muster up an overwhelming force and come for you. Why should we adopt losing tactics just so that people like you can feel righteous about themselves? No, it isn't at all. Not even one bit is that my opinion. I've already attempted to explain my point of view multiple times here. Please stop making strawman attacks and forcing me to repeat myself. quote:Also you've still to demostrate, both in theoretical and practical terms, that active resistance agaist the fash ends up strengthening the fascist movement. Yeah, bashing BNP members and getting arrested while BNP members cheer is sure to endear you to the local community. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/06/01/bnp-westminster-rally_n_3371451.html
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Jun 10, 2013 21:59
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Josef bugman posted:They do, except that the ones that do are lovely, stupid and racist. So yeah, is there any point in which I have disagreed with you guys going out and beating up fascists? Other than saying it can sometimes be inefficient? Or is this another "either with us or against us" thing? The thing is that you're equivocating where you really shouldn't.
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Jun 10, 2013 21:59
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Serotonin posted:
It probably doesn't help your cause to be xenophobic regarding outsider criticism. That's something that only the fascists should be doing. Also, we keep telling you how to fight the far right because we've gotten really good at it. America has a lot of problems, but we're pretty rad when it comes to keeping political violence committed by the far right in check. I think it's partly because we're a culture obsessed with hunting down the 'nazi bad guys.' Spacedad fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Jun 10, 2013 |
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Jun 10, 2013 22:05
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goddamnedtwisto posted:I don't particularly want to kill anyone either. I do, however, believe that any direct action used to protect the powerless from the fascists is proportionate because fascist ideology represents an existential threat to entire races. When you put it in those terms, a kick in the head suddenly sounds pretty loving restrained to me. Do you honestly think that Tommeh could organise a true attack on any race overall with his acumen? He'd be lucky to organise a piss up in a brewery. The problem I have is that in beating up "ordinary" Fascists is that it entrenches the ideas and values. If your defending other people from the threat of getting beaten up by Fascists then I am sure you are right. But to say that you are preventing an existential threat to races is a bit of a grand claim, wouldn't you say? Did equivocating suddenly come to mean "talk about something in not a wholly positive way or bring up other ideas" whilst I was at work?
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Jun 10, 2013 22:10
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Spacedad, you need to realize that what the US has not seen a far right movement like European countries have seen ever. The closest would be the Confederate States of America with it's declaration that all blacks are subhuman. As terrible as Republicans are they are still far and above the BNP in racial policies.
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Jun 10, 2013 22:10
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How much engagement is there between antifa groups and masjid congregations in England? It seems some in this thread regard the protection of masajid as at least a tactical goal in their direct action approach. Has anyone approached local imams, shuyukh, or other members of the community about this?
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Jun 10, 2013 22:11
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Spacedad posted:It probably doesn't help your cause to be xenophobic regarding outsider criticism. That's something that only the fascists should be doing. It probably doesn't help your cause to use American exceptionalism to try and win your argument.
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Jun 10, 2013 22:14
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Spacedad posted:It probably doesn't help your cause to be xenophobic regarding outsider criticism. That's something that only the fascists should be doing. Or maybe it's because America is a nightmare hellscape where the far right are already in charge.
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Jun 10, 2013 22:14
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LP97S posted:Spacedad, you need to realize that what the US has not seen a far right movement like European countries have seen ever. The closest would be the Confederate States of America with it's declaration that all blacks are subhuman. As terrible as Republicans are they are still far and above the BNP in racial policies. You're drastically underestimating the work that the FBI, ATF, and other groups has done over the years. America can afford to take for granted that fascists can't sneeze without an informant or wiretap going 'gesunteight!' due to the extensive efforts of these investigative bodies. Once upon a time, the US before the FBI had as much problems with explosive political violence as europe did - the FBI largely hanged that. Gonzo McFee posted:Or maybe it's because America is a nightmare hellscape where the far right are already in charge. Depends where you go. This is a big country. Plenty of room for heavens and hells. Mr Cuddles posted:It probably doesn't help your cause to use American exceptionalism to try and win your argument. The nazi hunting stuff is certainly exceptionalist nationalist linked stuff (we still like to pretend we outdid the russians smashing nazis) but it's true that the US made itself unique to the rest of the world nearly a century ago in how it successfully dealt with political violence that was plaguing the western/european world at the start of the 20th century. (We used some questionable methods to do it though. But that's for another thread.) Spacedad fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Jun 10, 2013 |
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Jun 10, 2013 22:19
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