Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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Sir John Falstaff: Apr 13, 2010

CaptainScraps posted:

poo poo yeah. Those guys are scum.

At least they're not granting legitimacy to a fundamentally broken criminal justice system through their participation in it, like those public defender pigs.

# ? Jun 13, 2013 23:21

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 16:16

Tetrix: Aug 24, 2002

Take that PTO, BIG GOVERNMENT trying to steal my genes.

# ? Jun 13, 2013 23:41

algebra testes: Mar 5, 2011; Lipstick Apathy

TenementFunster posted:

Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Novelty Star Trek Cufflinks and Extended Holocaust Analogies

This thread.

Alaemon posted:

You're not alone. Insulating corporations from liability is fine for the people that do it, but I'm not one of them. I've had one corporate client and I found the experience one of the most demoralizing things I've done.

I even found studying Torts was a bit soul crushing when you're reading modern cases where the insurance company is arguing to avoid having to payout. Ie: anything that wasn't a snail in a ginger beer bottle. Actually, a different type of suffering than rape. Rape just made me feel cold and taught me not to care about my clients. Well, and obviously the laws of consent.

Torts just made me sad. :iiam:

# ? Jun 14, 2013 00:47

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

Alaemon posted:

You're not alone. Insulating corporations from liability is fine for the people that do it, but I'm not one of them. I've had one corporate client and I found the experience one of the most demoralizing things I've done.

That's what I'm doing right now, but I legitimately don't think they did anything bad so I'm ok with it. I've lucked out on not getting on the side I dislike of cases.

# ? Jun 14, 2013 00:59

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

Tetrix posted:

Take that PTO, BIG GOVERNMENT trying to steal my genes.

Man if we could just straight up 101 everything, my job would be so much easier.

# ? Jun 14, 2013 01:20

Johnny Five-Jaces: Jan 21, 2009

Baruch Obamawitz posted:

Man if we could just straight up 101 everything, my job would be so much easier.

I just do anyway.

# ? Jun 14, 2013 01:27

gvibes: Jan 18, 2010; Leading us to the promised land (i.e., one tournament win in five years)

Baruch Obamawitz posted:

Man if we could just straight up 101 everything, my job would be so much easier.

Fortunately, the Federal Circuit has recently clarified the scope of patentable subject matter in a recent, clear, and concise en banc opinion.

# ? Jun 14, 2013 01:43

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

gvibes posted:

Fortunately, the Federal Circuit has recently clarified the scope of patentable subject matter in a recent, clear, and concise en banc opinion.

I kind of like it. 101 everything and hope you draw the right circuit panel.

# ? Jun 14, 2013 03:12

joat mon: Oct 15, 2009; I am the master of my lamp;
I am the captain of my tub.

Sir John Falstaff posted:

At least they're not granting legitimacy to a fundamentally broken criminal justice system through their participation in it, like those public defender pigs.

What are you doing in my interior monologue?

# ? Jun 14, 2013 04:44

sigmachiev: Dec 31, 2007; Fighting blood excels

evilweasel posted:

That's what I'm doing right now, but I legitimately don't think they did anything bad so I'm ok with it. I've lucked out on not getting on the side I dislike of cases.

For one matter I've got I'm on a side I friggin DETEST and it's amazing how easy it gets to shut that off.

# ? Jun 14, 2013 06:16

tau: Mar 20, 2003; Sigillum Universitatis Kansiensis

sigmachiev posted:

For one matter I've got I'm on a side I friggin DETEST and it's amazing how easy it gets to shut that off.

Reminds me of the colonialists in"Kung Leopold's Ghost."

# ? Jun 14, 2013 06:50

Enigma: Jun 10, 2003; Raetus Deus Est.

Baruch Obamawitz posted:

Man if we could just straight up 101 everything, my job would be so much easier.

Any idea if the USPTO is going to be hiring again any time soon? I suspect with the budget cuts it's not likely. I can't find any other way to get the requisite two years of experience that every firm in the country expects me to have before they'll even let me in the door for an interview.

# ? Jun 14, 2013 14:29

Dallan Invictus: Oct 11, 2007; The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes, look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

One of my colleagues just brought her three week old baby into the office for the day so she could clean up her files.

:stare:

# ? Jun 14, 2013 15:28

Interlude: Jan 24, 2001; Guns are basically hand fedoras.

the milk machine posted:

I believe the issue is that working insurance defense, you are sure to eventually represent a soulless corporation against an individual who legitimately got their life screwed up by that company's negligence, and probably win.

If the insurance companies try to dick people like that over anywhere near as much as they do their own customers, I can imagine it would be tough work.

At least, that's the impression I got from an OCI with a large insurance defense firm (edit: in which the interviewer unironically said "big companies are being crushed by plaintiff's attorneys"). Their clients are all large corporations.

I mostly defend construction contractors from PI cases brought pursuant to NY's Labor Law, which is extremely plaintiff-friendly. Section 240(1) for example imposes non-delegable liability on building owners and contractors, with no comparative fault available as a defense, if someone is injured in a gravity-related risk. IE, someone falls off a ladder or scaffold, or some heavy poo poo falls on someone while they're working. The only way out of it is to hope you have a good contract with the plaintiff's employer so his insurance takes the hit, or somehow prove sole proximate cause which is getting tougher and tougher in NYC.

So if anything, I find that plaintiffs are taking advantage of the law. It's not uncommon to find out that the guy who supposedly hurt himself on the job actually hurt himself the day before at a party and then came into work and "ow my knee!". Sometimes, it's lovely fly-by-night contractors that hire undocumented workers, give them lovely ladders and no safety equipment, and then go out of business when you sue them. But mostly it's lying liars who are trying to cash out of a backbreaking line of work.

I used to do some premises work and that was a whole other ballgame. Yeah there were guys who claimed to trip over a 1/16" gap in the sidewalk and never mind my long history of knee injuries and degenerative arthritis, everything was just peachy until that dangerous sidewalk came around. But more often, it was shifty assholes running deathtrap apartment buildings, weighing the value of the most basic maintenance against how much of a hit their premiums would take if a kid falls down the garbage-strewn stairs. gently caress those guys.

Omerta posted:

I'm surprised he said he works great hours. The ID guys I know all worked a ton because their billable rate was crazy low -- like $130 for an equity partner.

That's basically our associate rate, but it varies greatly from client to client. Some things like 50-h hearings pay a lump sum no matter how much work you do. I'm very efficient at doing this crap since I've been doing it for ten years. It's not very challenging. Plus, with a huge caseload, you're double, triple, or even quintuple billing a lot of the times you're in court. I billed 2500 hours last year with no late nights or weekends. We're fortunate I guess because we have a lot of work coming in the door. At a prior firm, we had to bill the poo poo out of like a few dozen cases and it was a nightmare.

# ? Jun 14, 2013 18:31

Sir John Falstaff: Apr 13, 2010

Interlude posted:

Plus, with a huge caseload, you're double, triple, or even quintuple billing a lot of the times you're in court.

Isn't that an ethical violation?

\/\/\/\/ Not sure you're right about that one. . .

quote:

The practice of "padding" billing records and "double-billing" � that is, billing the same work or time to two or more clients � is clearly prohibited.

http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/administrative/professional_responsibility/when_two_plus_two.authcheckdam.pdf

See:

quote:

In addressing the hypotheticals regarding (a) simultaneous appearance on behalf of three clients, (b) the airplane flight on behalf of one client while working on another client's matters and (c) recycled work product, it is helpful to consider these questions, not from the perspective of what a client could be forced to pay, but rather from the perspective of what the lawyer actually earned. A lawyer who spends four hours of time on behalf of three clients has not earned twelve billable hours.

http://www.thenalfa.org/files/ABA_Formal_Opinion_93-379.pdf

Sir John Falstaff fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Jun 14, 2013

# ? Jun 14, 2013 18:45

Interlude: Jan 24, 2001; Guns are basically hand fedoras.

Sir John Falstaff posted:

Isn't that an ethical violation?

Only if it's the same client. :smug:

# ? Jun 14, 2013 19:06

HiddenReplaced: Apr 21, 2007; Yeah...
it's wanking time.

Interlude posted:

That's basically our associate rate, but it varies greatly from client to client.

How the hell do you make money if you're billing associates out at 130/hour? How much do you guys pay your associates?

# ? Jun 14, 2013 19:13

Kalman: Jan 17, 2010

HiddenReplaced posted:

How the hell do you make money if you're billing associates out at 130/hour? How much do you guys pay your associates?

Seriously. I'm pretty sure we bill out our paralegals at more than that.

# ? Jun 14, 2013 19:54

joat mon: Oct 15, 2009; I am the master of my lamp;
I am the captain of my tub.

# ? Jun 14, 2013 20:11

Phil Moscowitz: Feb 19, 2007; If blood be the price of admiralty,
Lord God, we ha' paid in full!

Yeah technically by the ABA rules (which are model rules remember) if you're billing multiple clients for the same time for traveling or court appearances, you're supposed to have some kind of agreed travel rate (that is lower than your billable rate) or split the time between the clients. So if you charge $300/hr and you are in court for three hours for three different files, you should bill each client $300 ($100/hr). Obviously it can be more complicated, like if you are actually drafting a pleading for one client while traveling or are spending 1.5 hours actively arguing one case in court while the others only took 10 minutes each.

But I'm pretty sure that actively double or triple billing, as in charging $900 per hour that you are in court or billing two clients for time spent on a plane--one for travel time and the other for drafting time--is unethical.

Phil Moscowitz fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Jun 14, 2013

# ? Jun 14, 2013 20:19

Soothing Vapors: Mar 26, 2006; Associate Justice Lena "Kegels" Dunham: An uncool thought to have: 'is that guy walking in the dark behind me a rapist? Never mind, he's Asian.

joat mon posted:

crim law best law

# ? Jun 14, 2013 20:20

Soothing Vapors: Mar 26, 2006; Associate Justice Lena "Kegels" Dunham: An uncool thought to have: 'is that guy walking in the dark behind me a rapist? Never mind, he's Asian.

Kalman posted:

Seriously. I'm pretty sure we bill out our paralegals at more than that.

We bill our secretaries out at about 100 when they do substantive work, I think

# ? Jun 14, 2013 20:21

TenementFunster: Feb 20, 2003; The Cooler King

oh my god I just saw evidence of a secret workplace relationship between two senior attorneys in the hallway and OMG I'm a high school girl

# ? Jun 14, 2013 21:04

Interlude: Jan 24, 2001; Guns are basically hand fedoras.

HiddenReplaced posted:

How the hell do you make money if you're billing associates out at 130/hour? How much do you guys pay your associates?

Volume. Biglaw associates work on what, a few cases at once? Maybe a dozen? Ours have caseloads of 60-80 each. They get paid between $50k and $110k base plus hours bonuses which can be up to $35k or so. Some have business and get a cut of that ranging between 4%-18% of net billables. The equity partners don't make a few mill a year however, more like $500-750k.

This is absolutely not the case at all insurance defense/coverage firms. Wilson Elser, the largest, is known for working associates into the ground for less money than we pay. However, their biggest partners rake in a lot of cash. Conversely, some plaintiff's firms I know of don't even give their associates health insurance or vacation time. Sad part is that there are people graduating T1 schools that would kill for a job at Wilson Elser.

# ? Jun 14, 2013 21:05

Kalman: Jan 17, 2010

I dont see how volume helps. I mean, yes, I may only have 5-10 cases at a time, but I will bill my 2000 hours a year to those cases - each one just needs more time. Case volume is completely irrelevant.

# ? Jun 14, 2013 21:12

Interlude: Jan 24, 2001; Guns are basically hand fedoras.

Phil Moscowitz posted:

Yeah technically by the ABA rules (which are model rules remember) if you're billing multiple clients for the same time for traveling or court appearances, you're supposed to have some kind of agreed travel rate (that is lower than your billable rate) or split the time between the clients. So if you charge $300/hr and you are in court for three hours for three different files, you should bill each client $300 ($100/hr). Obviously it can be more complicated, like if you are actually drafting a pleading for one client while traveling or are spending 1.5 hours actively arguing one case in court while the others only took 10 minutes each.

But I'm pretty sure that actively double or triple billing, as in charging $900 per hour that you are in court or billing two clients for time spent on a plane--one for travel time and the other for drafting time--is unethical.

Officially it's not condoned. But everyone does it. Any barring some kind of client collusion it's unlikely to be caught. At the end of the day, our clients cut the poo poo out of our bills using such wonderful services as computer software that automatically redlines anything with certain keywords in it, so it's kind of a seesaw. And so marches the profession into the sea.

# ? Jun 14, 2013 21:13

TenementFunster: Feb 20, 2003; The Cooler King

Advanced Holocaust Metaphors, Cufflink Clown Chat, and Open Discussion of Ethical Violations as Accepted Business Practice.

# ? Jun 14, 2013 21:18

Interlude: Jan 24, 2001; Guns are basically hand fedoras.

Kalman posted:

I dont see how volume helps. I mean, yes, I may only have 5-10 cases at a time, but I will bill my 2000 hours a year to those cases - each one just needs more time. Case volume is completely irrelevant.

Firm minimum is 2150 per year, though most bill more due to hours bonuses. 2150x$130 = $279,500. 1/3 goes to the partners, 1/3 to operations, and 1/3 to the associate. Bonuses are paid out of excess hours billed beyond the 2150.

Using that simple math, you can pay the associate $93,166. We pay some of them half that. Do the math for what your billing rate and salary are and I figure you're at about the same percentages.

# ? Jun 14, 2013 21:18

Green Crayons: Apr 2, 2009

TenementFunster posted:

Advanced Holocaust Metaphors, Cufflink Clown Chat, and Open Discussion of Ethical Violations as Accepted Business Practice.

"Law is a Noble Profession." - Seton Hall Law Professor, Paula A. Franzese, multiple times during a BarBri lecture video.

# ? Jun 14, 2013 21:22

TenementFunster: Feb 20, 2003; The Cooler King

"PAULA"

# ? Jun 14, 2013 21:23

Kalman: Jan 17, 2010

Interlude posted:

Firm minimum is 2150 per year, though most bill more due to hours bonuses. 2150x$130 = $279,500. 1/3 goes to the partners, 1/3 to operations, and 1/3 to the associate. Bonuses are paid out of excess hours billed beyond the 2150.

Using that simple math, you can pay the associate $93,166. We pay some of them half that. Do the math for what your billing rate and salary are and I figure you're at about the same percentages.

I am not even close. I wind up bringing in closer to 4.5x as much as I'm paid, even accounting for an 80% realization rate and a lockstep bonus.

# ? Jun 14, 2013 21:29

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Soothing Vapors posted:

We bill our secretaries out at about 100 when they do substantive work, I think

My 1L summer (paid! We all should miss 2007) I got billed out at a touch over $100/hr. And as a 1L I was basically useless.

# ? Jun 14, 2013 21:31

Interlude: Jan 24, 2001; Guns are basically hand fedoras.

Insurance defense firms unfortunately don't have the luxury of guaranteed business from large corporations whose management can't use cheaper firms because if they lose a case they'll be held accountable by their board of directors.

# ? Jun 14, 2013 21:39

Soothing Vapors: Mar 26, 2006; Associate Justice Lena "Kegels" Dunham: An uncool thought to have: 'is that guy walking in the dark behind me a rapist? Never mind, he's Asian.

TenementFunster posted:

Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Novelty Star Trek Cufflinks and Extended Holocaust Analogies

This is the best one in a while

TenementFunster posted:

Advanced Holocaust Metaphors, Cufflink Clown Chat, and Open Discussion of Ethical Violations as Accepted Business Practice.

Hahah okay never mind this one is better

# ? Jun 14, 2013 22:02

Soothing Vapors: Mar 26, 2006; Associate Justice Lena "Kegels" Dunham: An uncool thought to have: 'is that guy walking in the dark behind me a rapist? Never mind, he's Asian.

nm posted:

My 1L summer (paid! We all should miss 2007) I got billed out at a touch over $100/hr. And as a 1L I was basically useless.

I am trying to imagine the reaction from a client if I actually sent them a bill with summer associate or secretarial hours on it and giggling hysterically

Kalman posted:

I am not even close. I wind up bringing in closer to 4.5x as much as I'm paid, even accounting for an 80% realization rate and a lockstep bonus.

I just did the math and I'm at about 4.1x. Law is fun!

# ? Jun 14, 2013 22:03

TenementFunster: Feb 20, 2003; The Cooler King

Soothing Vapors posted:

Hahah okay never mind this one is better

mods name change to "Writ of Mangaymus"

# ? Jun 14, 2013 22:17

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

EDIT: nevermind. I'll just say upwards of 3x.

# ? Jun 15, 2013 00:13

SlyFrog: May 16, 2007; What? One name? Who are you, Seal?

Look at you cute kids thinking fake hours and bill padding aren't endemic to the profession.

Stay young with your bright eyes and unsullied hearts.

I believe I once calculated that a colleague would have needed to have approximately 13.6 billable hours everyday/365 days a year in order to hit his stated numbers one year. Let's just say I also knew he wasn't working on weekends. Or nights.

He was just the worst example of what I've seen. Others "bill" far less ("only" 2500-3000 hours a year), but are also in the office far less frequently than the first guy.

Let me also say, I think this profession almost pushes people to it. You're either an inhuman freak who does not mind the punishment that 2500 billable hours really represents (if it is all legitimate), or, if you're like a lot of people, you find ways around it.

Still one of my favorite articles of all time about the practice of law: http://www.vallexfund.com/download/Being_Happy_Healthy_Ethical_Member.pdf

SlyFrog fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Jun 15, 2013

# ? Jun 15, 2013 00:25

echopapa: Jun 2, 2005; El Presidente smiles upon this thread.

HiddenReplaced posted:

How the hell do you make money if you're billing associates out at 130/hour? How much do you guys pay your associates?

At my old job, I was billed at $35 an hour. :smith:

# ? Jun 15, 2013 01:35

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 16:16

Solid Lizzie: Sep 26, 2011; Forbes or GTFO

Green Crayons posted:

"Law is a Noble Profession." - Seton Hall Law Professor, Paula A. Franzese, multiple times during a BarBri lecture video.

Haven't had her yet, but I asked a friend of mine what her approach to the bar was last year, and her very first question was "HAVE YOU HAD PAULA FRANZESE YET?"

Solid Lizzie fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Jun 15, 2013

# ? Jun 15, 2013 02:03

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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