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nutranurse posted:Red Country was hardly optimistic! I mean, maybe the encounter between Logan & Shivers at the end. Laying to rest old demons is a great step forward for Shivers, but Logan sure as heck did not seem to do the same. People like Logen are fated to be unhappy. Shy and Temple got a happy ending, and it's pretty clearly Abercrombie talking with the whole "When I was young, I used to find happy endings cloying. Maybe I'm getting old, but I've come to appreciate them" line.
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Aug 2, 2013 05:21
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Xenix posted:Also, I don't know why this point is bold for emphasis when of the four things you posted, it's the least egregious offense in my eyes.  But seriously, that was the first hint that Bayaz might not be a nice guy. I was still getting 'cantankerous old prospector' from him until he blew up those people in Adua, but his treatment of the Apprentice (what was his name?) gave me the idea that he might not be the traditional kindly mentor. e:We're still spoilering The First Law, right? Grand Prize Winner fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Aug 2, 2013 |
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Aug 2, 2013 17:42
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Xenix posted:1. Legitimate concern. However, whether he was doing more evil than allowing the eaters to figuratively consume the city is not really known from what we see in the books. I'd say it's less evil than allowing the eaters to literally consume the city. Byaz gave no fucks whatsoever about the citizenry, the war was one hundred percent to save his own rear end. Wen the Eaters show up they say that if Byaz is turned over they will be spared and the terms of their surrender generous. The King considers it then does a, probably Byaz inspired, heel turn and tells the invaders to gently caress off. I think the offer was sincere.
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Aug 2, 2013 17:54
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Blind Melon posted:Byaz gave no fucks whatsoever about the citizenry, the war was one hundred percent to save his own rear end. Wen the Eaters show up they say that if Byaz is turned over they will be spared and the terms of their surrender generous. The King considers it then does a, probably Byaz inspired, heel turn and tells the invaders to gently caress off. I think the offer was sincere. Maybe some of the Eaters do believe that their power is a curse to bear solely for revenge on Bayaz, but I doubt that applies to all of them. At the end of the day they're still monsters that need to eat other humans to function. If Bayaz were gone most Eaters would probably just keep being the horrible monsters that they are, and find new ways to justify their actions.
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Aug 2, 2013 18:03
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Grand Prize Winner posted:
I dunno, setting up an oppressive autocratic regime with an Inquisition rang my alarm bells pretty quickly. Well that and the whole banking thing, which wasn't that hard to see coming. I don't think there's many things worse than a Lawyer Banker that also likes a sidedish of torture 
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Aug 2, 2013 20:01
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keiran_helcyan posted:Maybe some of the Eaters do believe that their power is a curse to bear solely for revenge on Bayaz, but I doubt that applies to all of them. At the end of the day they're still monsters that need to eat other humans to function. If Bayaz were gone most Eaters would probably just keep being the horrible monsters that they are, and find new ways to justify their actions. Is it clear in the books whether Eaters (A) merely lose their powers or (B) actually die when they stop eating human flesh? Because it's Abercrombie, my bet's on (A).
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Aug 2, 2013 20:34
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You could say that sending your nation's armies (mostly volunteer armies, too, by the way) off to fight in wars of conquest is evil, but I think that's an overly black and white way of looking at it. I also thought there was some reason that the seed had to be "activated" in Adua. But even if not, I don't know that directly engaging the armies who were laying seige to the city was even an option. As for handing himself over to certain death, yeah right. That's a tall order for anyone.Grand Prize Winner posted:Is it clear in the books whether Eaters (A) merely lose their powers or (B) actually die when they stop eating human flesh? Because it's Abercrombie, my bet's on (A). Juaguocio posted:I found a more accurate representation of him:
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Aug 3, 2013 05:34
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Above Our Own posted:You could say that sending your nation's armies (mostly volunteer armies, too, by the way) off to fight in wars of conquest is evil, but I think that's an overly black and white way of looking at it. I also thought there was some reason that the seed had to be "activated" in Adua. But even if not, I don't know that directly engaging the armies who were laying seige to the city was even an option. As for handing himself over to certain death, yeah right. That's a tall order for anyone. It was explicitly stated that it was only at Bayaz's demand, and it was over a price dispute. Choosing to send all those people to their deaths over that is pretty clearly evil. I think that's pretty black and white, don't go all fallacy of grey on me.
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Aug 3, 2013 06:52
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Grand Prize Winner posted:
I continued to get those vibes even after that spoilered part, because I'm sick of fantasy where good guys get to act good all the time. If some Deus ex Machina just came to rescue them by ordering the troops off or whatever, that would've been just lame. However I didn't get that something was amiss before being well into the third book. It's the siege where Bayaz really starts to act weird and I thought it was all just stress. But I admit I have the habit of trusting the narrator and the characters. I also have strong protagonist sympathy. I still find it difficult to dislike Breaking Bad's Walter White, even though there'd be no problem if the series were filmed from, say, Hank's viewpoint.
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Aug 3, 2013 09:08
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keiran_helcyan posted:Maybe some of the Eaters do believe that their power is a curse to bear solely for revenge on Bayaz, but I doubt that applies to all of them. At the end of the day they're still monsters that need to eat other humans to function. If Bayaz were gone most Eaters would probably just keep being the horrible monsters that they are, and find new ways to justify their actions. None of this is actually a defense of Byaz. Even if the eaters are rabid dogs that need to be put down at some point, Byaz killed them solely to save his own skin. I'm not too interested in a conversation about eater morality because IIRC some were broken up about it and some loved it and there is just no way to know how it would all have played out, or what minimal diet an eater needs or etc... We don't know enough to say how bad the eaters are, but we do know, for absolute certain, that Byaz is loving evil
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Aug 3, 2013 17:11
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I just finished Django Wexler's The Thousand Names, and I recommend it for people who like Joe Abercrombie- it has the same low-magic feel.
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Aug 3, 2013 20:36
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Pimpmust posted:I dunno, setting up an oppressive autocratic regime with an Inquisition rang my alarm bells pretty quickly. A cannibal that sets up a theocracy. Wall Street has done many more things for us than Muhammad. I am a lawyer, though, so of course I'd say this.
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Aug 3, 2013 21:16
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Yes, exactly, I agree with your point. Wall Street has done Much More To Us.  (When will we get the real Commie Wizard in this world?) Come on Joe, I know you want to.
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Aug 3, 2013 23:03
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Blind Melon posted:None of this is actually a defense of Byaz. Even if the eaters are rabid dogs that need to be put down at some point, Byaz killed them solely to save his own skin. I'm not too interested in a conversation about eater morality because IIRC some were broken up about it and some loved it and there is just no way to know how it would all have played out, or what minimal diet an eater needs or etc... We don't know enough to say how bad the eaters are, but we do know, for absolute certain, that Byaz is loving evil It all depends on your definition of evil really. Bayaz is a self serving power hungry rear end in a top hat, but he doesn't torture and murder people solely for his enjoyment. From my perspective Bayaz is just like the countless other power hungry despots from real world history, only with an endless lifespan and a small amount of magic to give him an edge. I think that's partly why I enjoy him so much, he feels authentic.
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Aug 4, 2013 02:18
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keiran_helcyan posted:It all depends on your definition of evil really. Hitler is a self serving power hungry rear end in a top hat, but he doesn't torture and murder people solely for his enjoyment. From my perspective Hitler is just like the countless other power hungry despots from real world history, only with an endless lifespan and a small amount of magic to give him an edge. I think that's partly why I enjoy him so much, he feels authentic. Sure, real human beings are complex characters, but actions and results matter a lot more than intent. Bayaz's sole intention has been to increase his own power, and he's murdered and hurt God knows how many people over the millennia to get what he has. I'll give you that he's one of the more interesting characters in the series, though.
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Aug 4, 2013 03:01
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Meh,  I think that evil is a very subjective term that shouldn't be applied to real life people EDIT: (as in people shouldn't be called "evil", but their actions can) , but if anyone could be called "evil", than Bayaz fits that bill.EDIT: Then again, he isn't a real person. So yeah he's evil. Sex Beef 2.0 fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Aug 4, 2013 |
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Aug 4, 2013 05:05
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Almost all of the characters including the protagonists are evil. It muddies the definition and is altogether very interesting.
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Aug 4, 2013 05:48
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keiran_helcyan posted:It all depends on your definition of evil really. Bayaz is a self serving power hungry rear end in a top hat, but he doesn't torture and murder people solely for his enjoyment. From my perspective Bayaz is just like the countless other power hungry despots from real world history, only with an endless lifespan and a small amount of magic to give him an edge. I think that's partly why I enjoy him so much, he feels authentic. Eh, pretty much all you say about him makes him sound evil. What's with the word "evil" anyway? Why it's so difficult to use? If someone is an rear end in a top hat to others without having to be, that's evil enough for me.
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Aug 4, 2013 07:25
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Remember people, Shades, Shades! There are many Shades to the characters in this series. Many Shades of Black 
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Aug 4, 2013 08:40
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keiran_helcyan posted:It all depends on your definition of evil really. Bayaz is a self serving power hungry rear end in a top hat, but he doesn't torture and murder people solely for his enjoyment. From my perspective Bayaz is just like the countless other power hungry despots from real world history, only with an endless lifespan and a small amount of magic to give him an edge. I think that's partly why I enjoy him so much, he feels authentic. Yes, he does. He actually literally does. He enjoys being number one pimp daddy Mage and so he kills anyone who stands between him and being able to claim best Mage status. He doesn't even kill to increase his own power, because he could have had more under Juvens. A smaller piece of a bigger pie. But he needs the whole pie, size be damned. Byaz isn't a sadist, he doesn't enjoy suffering for sufferings sake, but that is an incredibly narrow definition of evil. He is evil in service of his ego. Full stop.
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Aug 4, 2013 16:46
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The fact that we can even have a recurring discussion about the morality of a mass murderer is proof of Abercrombie's excellent characterization.
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Aug 5, 2013 00:49
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After reading this Bayaz chat I have come to a conclusion. Bayaz is not a villain. The word does not properly encompass who he is.
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Aug 5, 2013 03:38
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Bayaz is a shitbird that learned how to fly.
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Aug 5, 2013 18:00
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Above Our Own posted:Bayaz shows a ton of restraint. The only time we even see Bayaz harm many innocent people is when an army of superwizard cannibals breached the city walls and that was more indirect fire than anything else. Other than that we see him generally put up with people who antagonize him, handsomely reward people who will obey him, and even give his enemies a chance to cooperate. He's really more like a fantasy extension of a mob boss than a figure like Stalin or Hitler. That actually fits Stalin perfectly, which was why I made the comparison to him rather than Hitler. Like Stalin, Bayaz did evil out of expediency rather than cruelty. Its still evil though. Edit: I would even argue that in some ways the evil born of expediency is much worse than the mindless evil born out of cruelty. The latter is pretty easy to recognize and most people will instinctively oppose it. The evil of expediency on the other hand is much more insidious and easier to hide and justify to people. Its kind of the reason why Hitler had the whole world descend on him, while Stalin managed to live to a ripe old age. Mr.48 fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Aug 5, 2013 |
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Aug 5, 2013 19:50
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So ...Quai... died basically after the events of The Blade Itself and was replaced by Tolomei before the journey to the edge of the world? I didn't pick up on that during the trip, but then again Quai was passed out for most of The Blade Itself so I couldn't assess his personality except that he was a bit of a dolt.
Alec Eiffel fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Aug 5, 2013 |
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Aug 5, 2013 22:25
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There was an enormous change in his demeanour in the second book and the scene around the campfire, and the bit where he literally fantasised about killing the unconscious Bayaz, and the bit where he broke the pot over a bandits skull and crushed it into jelly and and and and. It's only a twist because it turns out to not be an Eater.
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Aug 5, 2013 23:28
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You know one thing I love about Abercrombie? no loving songs
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Aug 6, 2013 01:53
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Above Our Own posted:You know one thing I love about Abercrombie? no loving songs Ninefingers threatened to sing a song in Before They Were Hanged, but Bayaz denied us the pleasure. I'd never considered the Lord of the Rings connection before.
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Aug 6, 2013 05:42
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Above Our Own posted:You know one thing I love about Abercrombie? no loving songs I think the series would have been greatly improved with improvised song, I'm sure Jezal would have the voice of an angel.
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Aug 6, 2013 06:00
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Braking Gnus posted:Ninefingers threatened to sing a song in Before They Were Hanged, but Bayaz denied us the pleasure. I'd never considered the Lord of the Rings connection before.
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Aug 6, 2013 06:36
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Fire Safety Doug posted:My mental image of Logen is a lot meaner and uglier-looking. That one is too Generic Fantasy Hero. I can't stop seeing him as really muscular and younger cohen the barbarian myself. Edit: looking at the last pictures in this thread I am probably imagining the characters as generally smaller, older, more gnarly and bent than most people tend to. From the pictures posted they all seem younger, more muscular and prettier than what I imagine. His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 12:37 on Aug 6, 2013 |
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Aug 6, 2013 11:30
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I'm pretty sure that Logen looks like an anime.
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Aug 6, 2013 15:29
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Above Our Own posted:The fact that we can even have a recurring discussion about the morality of a mass murderer is proof of Abercrombie's excellent characterization. I always thought it was because people would be willing to rationalize any figure they found remotely likeable in their reading, but maybe that's saying the same thing.
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Aug 7, 2013 08:02
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Zeitgueist posted:I always thought it was because people would be willing to rationalize any figure they found remotely likeable in their reading, but maybe that's saying the same thing. Oh, sure, you might get the occasional shallow person who equates 'protagonist' or 'interesting character' with 'good person' (or who equates 'bad person' with 'bad character'), but I don't really think that's what's happening here. Abercrombie absolutely wants you to like Bayaz from the first, and he uses a number of narrative tricks to make it happen. Bayaz, at least at first, is presented as a friendly, if cantankerous, person who is clearly positioned against the first real (apparent) villain we meet, Bethod, and who, it becomes clear, is equally opposed to (and opposed by) the Eaters of Ghurkul, and Sult of the Inquisition, all of whom are established from the start as unilaterally horrible. He's an ally to virtually every sympathetic character in the book. And really, the worst things he does (that we know of) before, say, Book 3, are 'embarrass rich and powerful people', 'rig a fencing contest', and 'shout at people sometimes'. The eventual revelation of him as a megalomaniacal psychopath/petulant child trying to win an argument with his dead daddy about who is best is meant to be shocking, and it is. It's a pretty subtle trap that Abercrombie sets, and it pays off well. Combine that with his stated goals being arguably selfish but not necessarily unreasonable (and, again, arguably better than the alternative, if the alternative is, for example, a cannibal slavemaster), and it's no surprise that people might find cause to ask "well, all right, just how bad is he, really?" (Now, for fun, go back and swap in Logen's name for Bayaz's, and see just how much of the argument holds up. Quite a lot, I think.)
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Aug 7, 2013 15:30
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I would have found it a lot more shocking if I hadn't read any fantasy books since Shannara or David Eddings, but eh 
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Aug 7, 2013 16:53
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Well it's not a shocking revelation. Abercrombie increasingly showed us more and more of Bayaz's real persona as the books went on, but what I found 'shocking' is just how quickly it went from "kind of mean old wizard" to "mass-murdering sociopath" when Bayaz really took the reigns of power himself during the last few chapters of Last Argument. I've said it before, but once Bayaz gets the chance to display his power (rather than work from behind the scene) the gloves come off and the dude does some downright evil, despicable things—things that you would not expect from the normal fantasy wizard mentor archetype.
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Aug 8, 2013 00:57
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Really the main question I had after the trilogy is how Bayaz managed to let his grip on power slip so much in the first place. I know there was a hand-wave line by Bayaz himself about losing track of time in his wizard home, but that doesn't really seem to match the brutal controlling nature of the Bayaz that we're presented in the books.
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Aug 8, 2013 02:45
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keiran_helcyan posted:Really the main question I had after the trilogy is how Bayaz managed to let his grip on power slip so much in the first place. I know there was a hand-wave line by Bayaz himself about losing track of time in his wizard home, but that doesn't really seem to match the brutal controlling nature of the Bayaz that we're presented in the books. I got the impression the The First Law trilogy as a whole is kind of rough in the way it sets up the characters and the setting. Maybe it's just me, but I felt that Abercrombie's ideas for things were fairly broad when he started, but that he had a much better idea of how he wanted things by the time he got to LAOK. So I guess his original idea was for Bayaz to be a sinister take on the grumpy wizard mentor, and by the end he had evolved into the egotistical control freak we know today. That's just the impression I got though; maybe he's said something to the contrary on his blog.
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Aug 8, 2013 06:21
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I just took Bayaz to be growing more and more grumpy under stress, I didn't have an inkling that he was a monster until the reveals at LAOK. It's a good twist.
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Aug 8, 2013 06:33
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Down With People posted:I got the impression the The First Law trilogy as a whole is kind of rough in the way it sets up the characters and the setting. Maybe it's just me, but I felt that Abercrombie's ideas for things were fairly broad when he started, but that he had a much better idea of how he wanted things by the time he got to LAOK. So I guess his original idea was for Bayaz to be a sinister take on the grumpy wizard mentor, and by the end he had evolved into the egotistical control freak we know today. He still answers fan mail every now and then. He might tell you/write a blog post about it if you ask. Especially if you focus on the writing process rather than the lore.
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Aug 8, 2013 08:17
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