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Geokinesis posted:Keshiks and Camel Archers are even better, as they don't have the rough terrain penalty. I think we're talking ancient/classical here, though.
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Aug 11, 2013 18:24
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Geokinesis posted:Keshiks and Camel Archers are even better, as they don't have the rough terrain penalty. Yeah, same with the Hunnic horse archer. Keshiks and Camel Archers, however, come much, much later than chariot archers and horse archers, and they have the same problem of upgrading to a melee unit and losing all their ranged promotions. IMO horsemen are the most useful classical unit overall. Catapults, or very large armies of composite bowmen, are essential to conquest if that's something you want to do, but if you're defending or if you need to clear the enemy's army before moving in on his city(ies), horsemen can help you do it in no time flat, and they can be relegated to barbarian duty when you're not at war. Their speed will help you nab encampment quests faster than anyone else and keep them from getting cornered, and barbarian spearmen aren't that deadly to them if they move in pairs and have a couple of promotions, and with honour they're hardly a threat at all. Having a couple of horsemen around your borders is also one of the best trump cards you can have against potential invasion. If an army enters your borders, your horsemen can swoop in behind them and wreck their siege and/or ranged units, and from there a single archer or composite bowmen should be able to drive off any melee units. I really think chariot archers would benefit greatly from being able to move after attacking, and also from an extra movement point. The rough terrain penalty does enough to represent the drawback of using a chariot, and I can't really see a use for them without being able to move after attacking. They're not as good at scouting, barbarian hunting, or harassment as horsemen, and they're not as good at ranged combat in general as archers, since archers get defensive terrain bonuses. Their ranged attack is low enough that it wouldn't make them overpowered, especially if they brought back the vs cities penalty for non-siege ranged units, which I really, really think they should. TacticalUrbanHomo fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 18:24
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Sylink posted:Chieftain but I think I get it now. My first game was kind of fucke dup and I ignored half the research tree and had musketmen before I discovered the compass so I didn't have much else to build
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Aug 11, 2013 18:27
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:This is why extra-powerful wonders like Petra suck. I hope the next Civ game completely rethinks how wonders work, the production race mechanic (where you don't even know how well you're doing in the race!) has never been fun. I actually like that about wonders. It's a huge risk but for a big payoff. I actually think the payoff should somehow amplify with the number of players to account for the greater risk of losing all the effort, but other than that I like the mechanic. The one thing I don't like is how being the first to a tech gives the player a monopoly on the wonder they unlocked - when the tech lead is far enough a high production empire can get virtually every late game wonder, and it's a horrible snowball. Part of me thinks a wonder should unlock for all players once someone gets the tech, but that's probably not an ideal solution.
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Aug 11, 2013 18:36
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Peaceful Anarchy posted:Only one can be built in the world, so if someone else builds it before you you get nothing. They also take long to build, and so it might come at the expense of other things you could be building. It's still a good idea to build wonders if you can, but how many and which ones depends on what difficulty your playing at. It's also worth noting that there's a difference between National Wonders and World Wonders. Only 1 Civ can have a World Wonder. Each Civ gets its own National Wonder, but only one can be built in each Civ. Wonders you might expect to be World Wonders are actually National Wonders, too. Pvt.Scott posted:If the AI snags Petra and you haven't invested every fiber of you resources to that point rushing for it, make note of who has it and take it once the city is nice and fat. Problem solved! Except when the AI builds it in a lovely location, like that German Petra I posted.
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Aug 11, 2013 19:07
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thehumandignity posted:Yeah, same with the Hunnic horse archer. Keshiks and Camel Archers, however, come much, much later than chariot archers and horse archers, and they have the same problem of upgrading to a melee unit and losing all their ranged promotions. Technically, ranged promotions still give combat bonuses to attacks when upgraded to a melee unit. The promotion trees are different between ranged and melee, so a Barrage III Keshik->Cav can start again at Drill I at next level, but both bonuses stack for combat calculations. So it's possible to end up with a former Keshik that's been upgraded to Barrage III plus Drill III and it actually gains a total of +90% rough terrain attack. The only ranged promotion that ends up being useless on a melee unit is +1 Range. Throw enough EXP at any mounted archer and they can end up being absurdly buff Tanks. Even the mighty Chu-ko-nu can't stack promotions like that. Assyrian Siege Towers are also capable of stacking both melee and ranged promotions for extra killing power. Corvinus fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 19:10
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If an army twice the size of mine is "barely any units" to the advisors, what the hell does it think a strong army is? I just ran into a war with China I had no hope of winning because my advisors are full of poo poo.
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Aug 11, 2013 19:15
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I think I'm doing something wrong with tourism. I know you need to produce great works to start generating it, but the past 3 games I've attempted I've gotten to medieval era without a single great person popping to create a work, and thus no tourism. I have culture out the wazoo, but I can't seem to get it spreading.
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Aug 11, 2013 19:27
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Orgophlax posted:I think I'm doing something wrong with tourism. I know you need to produce great works to start generating it, but the past 3 games I've attempted I've gotten to medieval era without a single great person popping to create a work, and thus no tourism. I have culture out the wazoo, but I can't seem to get it spreading. You need to construct the artist/writer/musicians' guilds to start getting GP points towards them, and you need to have citizens in their specialist slots as well. You can view great person progress in the city screen so you can always be fully aware of what you're getting and how often.
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Aug 11, 2013 19:32
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RBA Starblade posted:If an army twice the size of mine is "barely any units" to the advisors, what the hell does it think a strong army is? I just ran into a war with China I had no hope of winning because my advisors are full of poo poo. What tech level were they compared to you?
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Aug 11, 2013 19:33
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Orgophlax posted:I think I'm doing something wrong with tourism. I know you need to produce great works to start generating it, but the past 3 games I've attempted I've gotten to medieval era without a single great person popping to create a work, and thus no tourism. I have culture out the wazoo, but I can't seem to get it spreading. The only way to reliably get great people before guilds (medieval era) is with the liberty tree finisher, and I think the benefit or using it for scientist or engineer for their buildings outweighs a great artist/writer in the long run.
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Aug 11, 2013 19:44
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Alright say I'm playing as Babylon, and get the free great scientist after learning writing. Am I better off making him settle down and improve a tile, or make him learn me a technology quick? I don't really understand that part of the great people.
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Aug 11, 2013 19:48
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I AM BRAWW posted:Alright say I'm playing as Babylon, and get the free great scientist after learning writing. Am I better off making him settle down and improve a tile, or make him learn me a technology quick? So early in the game you're probably better off using them as a tile improvement, they pay off way more over time like that. Later on I'm generally more inclined to speed up research to try to win space races or whatever else.
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Aug 11, 2013 19:55
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^^^ I played a game with Morocco just now where I had Desert Folklore and a religion which had no buildings to construct. I turboed into Industrial then took Order as my ideology for the Tier 3 tenet that lets you build spaceship parts with Engineers. I then saved well over 10,000 faith, bought five Scientists and three Engineers along with spawning an Engineer and two Scientists from GPPs, and launched my spaceship about 14 turns after discovering Rocketry.Corvinus posted:Throw enough EXP at any mounted archer and they can end up being absurdly buff Tanks. Even the mighty Chu-ko-nu can't stack promotions like that. Assyrian Siege Towers are also capable of stacking both melee and ranged promotions for extra killing power. On the subject of Assyria: they can't upgrade Catapults. Not that anyone ever builds Catapults, but sometimes you get gifted them and it's a complete waste of time and money to keep them around. Jedit fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 19:56
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They really should rename the Culture victory to something else, as it has fuckall to do with the culture mechanics now.
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Aug 11, 2013 20:03
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Cynic Jester posted:They really should rename the Culture victory to something else, as it has fuckall to do with the culture mechanics now.
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Aug 11, 2013 20:05
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The White Dragon posted:I dunno, I'd say that policies that help you get policies that increase your tourism by 34% to unhappy nations is a non-negligible connection, and tourism is basically your "culture attack strength." I think it's still quite compatible. Culture also gets you bonuses for all the other victory conditions. Honor and rationalism all have direct connections to other victory conditions, and in the case of religion or rationalism, are probably better for a cultural victory anyway compared to aesthetics.
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Aug 11, 2013 20:13
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I AM BRAWW posted:Alright say I'm playing as Babylon, and get the free great scientist after learning writing. Am I better off making him settle down and improve a tile, or make him learn me a technology quick? With a few exceptions, always settle before research labs. The exceptions are to bulb an extremely critical tech early, usually for warmongering, such as dynamite. Never bulb before the industrial era.
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Aug 11, 2013 20:22
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thehumandignity posted:Because it was in response to someone saying "Hunnish".  Edits!!
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Aug 11, 2013 20:29
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I AM BRAWW posted:Alright say I'm playing as Babylon, and get the free great scientist after learning writing. Am I better off making him settle down and improve a tile, or make him learn me a technology quick? It's easy to understand if you look at the numbers involved. Settling the Scientist gives you a +8 science tile improvement. Compare that to your base science and you'll see that you're practically doubling your science output in the early game and that's why Babylon is so potent. If you have a grassland tile without access to fresh water, that is the ideal tile to settle with Babylon's GS - it's food neutral but you aren't sacrificing a potential farm to make the academy.
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Aug 11, 2013 20:32
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Definitely settle your free Writing GS as Babylon every single time, no question. That science boost is massive for the point in the game you receive it (probably your second tech just 20 or so turns in).
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Aug 11, 2013 20:37
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Corvinus posted:Technically, ranged promotions still give combat bonuses to attacks when upgraded to a melee unit. The promotion trees are different between ranged and melee, so a Barrage III Keshik->Cav can start again at Drill I at next level, but both bonuses stack for combat calculations. So it's possible to end up with a former Keshik that's been upgraded to Barrage III plus Drill III and it actually gains a total of +90% rough terrain attack. The only ranged promotion that ends up being useless on a melee unit is +1 Range. Wait, those stack? Rolling Egypt immediately. Is there anywhere that breaks down the current combat mechanics? I've only been able to find stuff for vanilla. E: Like how much combat power does a wounded unit lose? Does Bushido stack with any of the "wounded units fight x% better abilities?
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Aug 11, 2013 20:54
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Bloodly posted:What tech level were they compared to you? We were on par. By the time I just gave up and turned the game off they outteched me, were pumping out units every single turn out of every city, their capital was virtually invincible. The one wonder relevant to the war they had was the great wall. You'd think five composite bowmen, three swordsmen, and two pikemen could have taken a city when they were backed up by a great general and a citadel, but no, they can't. gently caress China. Ultimately the war threw me behind enough that I just quit the game after about four hours. At least I've learned to completely ignore the advisors in the future. e: What's a good early start for Ashur? I want to be more aggressive in the early game like I used to in Civ 4. What policies should I push for? RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 20:54
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Today, I encountered the Zulu for the first time.  gently caress THE ZULU! They already had these four at something like turn 55, and this was only Emperor. Should have gone Liberty I guess.
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Aug 11, 2013 21:41
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Won my first game of Emperor as Shoshone via Diplomatic Victory. It took a world war against Elizabeth (rival), Sejoung, Washington, etc. to find all of the city states. Hilariously enough, I was in perpetual war against Washington after settling all the other wars.
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Aug 11, 2013 22:20
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KKKlean Energy posted:I actually like that about wonders. It's a huge risk but for a big payoff. I actually think the payoff should somehow amplify with the number of players to account for the greater risk of losing all the effort, but other than that I like the mechanic. Honestly i feel pretty happy about wherever every wonder is EXCEPT Petra, and i'd hate it if wonders were even more swingy. I'd rather lower both the risk and reward for that one.
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Aug 11, 2013 22:21
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Pvt.Scott posted:Like how much combat power does a wounded unit lose? Half as much as the amount of health lost. A unit at 50 HP will have its combat strength reduced 25% and a 10 HP unit is fighting at 45% less. Bushido stacks with all of them.
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Aug 11, 2013 22:28
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Star Platinum posted:Today, I encountered the Zulu for the first time. I don't think it could possibly be any more apparent that he's planning on killing you. He's just waiting on Civil Service to do so. Don't wait for that happen, strike first! 
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Aug 11, 2013 22:30
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Kajeesus posted:Half as much as the amount of health lost. A unit at 50 HP will have its combat strength reduced 25% and a 10 HP unit is fighting at 45% less. It was proven that Bushido does not stack with the old Autocracy bonus (before ideologies) I doubt anything has changed in that regard.
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Aug 11, 2013 22:38
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How are you immortal & diety bnw players keeping up with the AI tech-wise? Playing as portugal on epic immortal, I cannot seem to be any less than 5 percent points behind the AI techwise in the demographics. And this is building the national college at about the third city.
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Aug 11, 2013 22:42
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Hey for those participating in the Civ game tonight, I'm not going to be able to make it. Our internet seems to be out. Phone posting right now. I'll have to hand off the fate of the Ottoman Empire to another player. Have fun!
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Aug 11, 2013 23:00
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We're getting ready for the Sunday session for our MP game. Stream will be at http://www.twitch.tv/lasersharkdfb once we start. EDIT - I am dumb, game starts in about an hour. LaserShark fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 23:00
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:I don't think it could possibly be any more apparent that he's planning on killing you. He's Corrected you for accuracy there. If you see Shaka, kill him unless you already have an overwhelming military advantage over him. If you do, kill him anyway.
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Aug 11, 2013 23:01
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Played a game with Assyria on Emperor on the Earth map. I managed to conquer Portugal's only city, making Brazil hate me the rest of the game. They had the Great Wall, so I didn't want to attack them, deciding to try to keep them at bay by sending some trade their way. Then, around the time I grab the freedom ideology, Pedro attacks me, piling up about 10-15 units on my borders. I was a bit worried that he would totally ruin my trade network before I could get an army online. 2 Turns later I get an additional policy and grab Volunteer army. The war lasted about 15 turns.
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Aug 11, 2013 23:05
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Shaka is only really a problem if he is your neighbor, otherwise he's a great attack dog for keeping AI down. That's why Alex is so annoying, he takes CS and is hard to bribe, unlike Monty, Oda, or Attila. In this case though you should probably get bronze working, tech to swords and end him before he gets medieval on your rear end.
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Aug 11, 2013 23:08
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rudatron posted:How are you immortal & diety bnw players keeping up with the AI tech-wise? Playing as portugal on epic immortal, I cannot seem to be any less than 5 percent points behind the AI techwise in the demographics. And this is building the national college at about the third city. You will be behind for a quite a while but it'll usually even up later on as long as you get science buildings asap. Patronage is a really easy way to catch up too if you have the gold for city-states.
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Aug 11, 2013 23:13
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rudatron posted:How are you immortal & diety bnw players keeping up with the AI tech-wise? Playing as portugal on epic immortal, I cannot seem to be any less than 5 percent points behind the AI techwise in the demographics. And this is building the national college at about the third city. You're never really going to be ahead early to mid game, you'll be behind or even at best. Caravans are incredibly good early game, if you're teching straight to education then most of the AIs will have a ton of techs that you don't, giving you 6-10 science for every trade route when you're at <100 science. Mid-game try to be everyone's friend, research agreements are crucial. Keep the AIs warring with one another so you don't have to build a military, and prioritize industrialization/science techs. The AI prioritizes techs/buildings so poorly midgame and expands so much that their tech rate will probably fall way behind yours if you're doing everything right. I also think this is by far the easiest to do with a tall tradition+freedom strategy, especially with a really good civ like poland, arabia, or korea. Just don't worry about scores or most of the other demographic stuff, you'll often win when the top player has 2-3x your score.
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Aug 11, 2013 23:17
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rudatron posted:How are you immortal & diety bnw players keeping up with the AI tech-wise? Playing as portugal on epic immortal, I cannot seem to be any less than 5 percent points behind the AI techwise in the demographics. And this is building the national college at about the third city. You should pull ahead around the Industrial/Modern in Deity because the AI rarely takes Rationalism or builds the Porcelain Tower. If you prioritize education techs and plant spies in warlike civs, you can steal a ton of techs while still getting where you need to go. You can also get a very heavy positional lead by rushing through the Aluminum tech and then using Oxford to get Radio for free and enter modern. This usually happens before the AIs have their ideologies, but sometimes they get there first. Also remember that the tech percent thing isn't really meaningful. It's usually a very good idea to prioritize some very expensive techs that are very important while completely ignoring useless techs that would only take you one turn. That percentage isn't looking at your beakers invested, it's looking at how many raw techs you've researched. Because of that you can go from being behind by 10 points to being ahead in a few turns just by jamming through all of the little techs you've neglected.
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Aug 11, 2013 23:20
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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I'm agreeing with TheGame, except never blow oxford that way, if you want first crack at an ideology factories are the only way to do it on Deity.
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Aug 12, 2013 00:16
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What would you use Oxford for? I'd hardly consider that to be 'blowing it' since access to your ideology is perhaps the most important technological step in the game. It's pretty common to get through Industrialization and find 0 coal nearby and then have to wait another 20ish turns for the city states to mine some or the AIs to get around to it so that you can purchase it. In a tall empire I consider early access to coal to be pretty unusual, so bulbing into Modern is a pretty consistent way to get your ideology early. I'd give 50/50 odds on another civ opening up an ideology before that since they really don't seem to beeline factories once they have the access. I've been doing it ever since MadDjinn discussed it in his Venice LP. He couldn't find coal anywhere and was noting that a lot of people use Oxford for Radio for that very reason-- I believe that he used it for Industrialization.
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Aug 12, 2013 00:31
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