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As has been brought up before; Sony and Microsoft are publicly traded companies and you can literally read their quarterly earning statements online any time that you wish. The Xbox 360 has been a strong net positive for Microsoft (although since it shares a division with the abysmal Surface RT that divisions profits last quarter were a poo poo show) and Sony's most recent quarters have been losses or underperformances across divisions with a giant gliterring golden egg of the gaming division making the whole thing work.
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Sep 3, 2013 18:10
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Barudak posted:As has been brought up before; Sony and Microsoft are publicly traded companies and you can literally read their quarterly earning statements online any time that you wish. The Xbox 360 has been a strong net positive for Microsoft (although since it shares a division with the abysmal Surface RT that divisions profits last quarter were a poo poo show) and Sony's most recent quarters have been losses or underperformances across divisions with a giant gliterring golden egg of the gaming division making the whole thing work. Plus their finance division
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Sep 3, 2013 18:13
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Barudak posted:As has been brought up before; Sony and Microsoft are publicly traded companies and you can literally read their quarterly earning statements online any time that you wish. The Xbox 360 has been a strong net positive for Microsoft (although since it shares a division with the abysmal Surface RT that divisions profits last quarter were a poo poo show) and Sony's most recent quarters have been losses or underperformances across divisions with a giant gliterring golden egg of the gaming division making the whole thing work. Well, Sony also has a rather well performing financial services division too.
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Sep 3, 2013 18:13
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Install Windows posted:Well, Sony also has a rather well performing financial services division too. Whoops yes. Sorry I was in the mindset of their physical consumer products. A very important takeaway is that the Nintendo 5 Billion warchest or whatever needs to be implemented very smartly because they don't have the same way of being able to rely on other divisions.
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Sep 3, 2013 18:17
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Sweetgrass posted:Don't be asinine, that article isn't a great measure of strength for software attachment either. The tricky thing about tie in ratios when it comes to software is that it's only a snapshot of that particular moment in time; in regards to the article, the Wii had a strong tie-in ratio in 2008 that was a solid lead over Sony but not MS, but examine the same data a year later and the Wii's tie in has falling to roughly 6 and been overtaken by the PS#. And that in and of itself isn't a fully complete statement from a contextual point, because the most likely interpretation from that data to walk away with is that the Wii's tie in ratio still represented a larger number of games because of their larger hardware sales. And even THAT is an incomplete set of statements, because you have to note from the list of successful Wii games and even the examples picked out in your defensive article are dominated by first party Nintendo titles, which does nothing to dispel the point that barring an outlier to two like Guitar Hero 3 (which still only accounted for a quarter give or take of all sales for that franchise installment on the Wii, hardly a dominating showing), the vast majority of third party titles crashed and burned on the Wii and were just flat out never bought and never contributed at all to the tie in ratio. I'm still failing to see by what metrics selling the most software for your console out of any of the three consoles, as well as having the most successful games on your platforms being the ones you develop and publish for your platform (therefore, the most profitable) is a bad thing for your company.
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Sep 3, 2013 18:17
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CapnAndy posted:Is "Oh, that's the thing that I play Wii Sports/Wii Fit on, does it still do that, good, okay then why would I buy that weird tablet accessory" somehow better? We were talking about who won the last generation of consoles though? I get that the Wii was the least appealing console to the hardcore gamer but it did have an 8:1 attach rate for a significant period of time. Anyone who thinks the Wii didn't win is just as delusional as anyone who thinks the Wii U is doing fine. Also that Gamasutra article was the one I was looking for earlier. It tells us basically what we've already known: The Wii was lightning in a bottle that sold a ton of systems and games and then everyone forgot about it during the last year of its life. The article is actually much better at showing the comeback sony made than the failings of the Wii. There was some data somewhere (again, I'm at work) that compared the 1st and 3rd party attach rate for the wii and the 3rd party rate was worse as well.
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Sep 3, 2013 18:19
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Sweetgrass posted:
Imagine Babyz Dogz vgchartz http://www.vgchartz.com/analysis/platform_totals/Tie-Ratio/Global/
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Sep 3, 2013 18:20
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Jet Set Jettison posted:We were talking about who won the last generation of consoles though? I get that the Wii was the least appealing console to the hardcore gamer but it did have an 8:1 attach rate for a significant period of time. The Wii's tie ratio got better than those 2009 numbers. I wouldn't doubt if it even got better after that article because it was written before the release of Wii Sports Resort.
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Sep 3, 2013 18:26
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Wii U #21 Game Gear #19 Game Boy #17 The way that chart is mixed really suprises me. e:for quote. petrol blue fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Sep 3, 2013 |
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Sep 3, 2013 18:27
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Jet Set Jettison posted:Also that Gamasutra article was the one I was looking for earlier. It tells us basically what we've already known: The Wii was lightning in a bottle that sold a ton of systems and games and then everyone forgot about it during the last year of its life. I think this is also a big reason why the tablet isn't an appealing add-on for the console; it is an experience the target market for the WiiU is already familiar with and owns. The big huge advantage of the Wii was that its core control was simple and new to the audience and had a perfect price point. If Nintendo wanted to replicate that they should have done something standout different (I have no idea, Oculus Rift? Illumiroom?) and budgeted it to match. As it stands if I want the new experience Nintendo is offering for 350 I can buy a fully functional tablet if I don't already own a tablet or smartphone that meets my needs. Also; is there any logical reason that wii-motion plus isn't the standard for the WiiU wiimotes? That just bugs me.
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Sep 3, 2013 18:29
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Barudak posted:Also; is there any logical reason that wii-motion plus isn't the standard for the WiiU wiimotes? That just bugs me. It is the standard. Anything in a Wii U branded box has the Motion Plus.
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Sep 3, 2013 18:30
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NESguerilla posted:What? I said they should keep making handhelds in the first sentence and my post had nothing to do with handhelds. My bad. I read that as asking them to go third party because people just love to beat that dead horse. What you were saying there makes even less sense, though. Having them be a first party and a third party at the same time doesn't work. Hudson tried that back in the day and it didn't last.
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Sep 3, 2013 18:33
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Hey guys maybe "winning" the previous generation doesn't really mean anything re: the current generation. Or, stranger still, maybe each console manufacturer actually has different goals each generation. Like, maybe Microsoft was so happy with the amount of forward progress they made with the 360 and Live that they weren't too stressed out by the Wii fad. I dunno, I'm talking out my rear end. Of course, right now I cannot imagine that Nintendo is accomplishing anything they hoped they might with the WiiU, but hey, let's keep talking about how the console with the four year lifespan "beat" the ones that are still hooked up to people's TVs and still have huge AAA releases coming out.
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Sep 3, 2013 18:35
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deadwing posted:I'm still failing to see by what metrics selling the most software for your console out of any of the three consoles, as well as having the most successful games on your platforms being the ones you develop and publish for your platform (therefore, the most profitable) is a bad thing for your company. "The ONLY successful games on your platform, in the vast majority of all cases." It's not if your target goal is to just rely on the muscle of your first party stuff to make profit margins. But if you got long term goals for bringing in outside content to solidify your lead and draw in developer customers, then it's absolutely a bad thing. You alienate third party devs who are aiming to hit the broadest user base possible (because for all your hardware numbers, your regular customers don't buy their games), studios and companies who are designing development tools and graphic engines aren't going to be talking with you because you're not in the market for what they offer and your hardware doesn't support it anyway, and online content providers sure as hell aren't touching anything Nintendo is involved in. It's a long term sickness that manifests itself the more we move away from the established Wii sales base. Also thanks Kewpuh, though I was under the impression that anything VGchartz was pretty unreliable numbers wise?
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Sep 3, 2013 18:36
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It's not like winning a console war is even an objective thing. Nintendo outsold the other two by tapping into a new market (but promptly lost that market). They were soundly beaten in terms of traditional gaming and had little impact on it beyond motion controls being the gimmick of the moment. They also made a ton of money. Microsoft had a big impact on how console gaming is done by implementing a beefy online system, but doesn't at the end of the generation have a clear advantage in number of machines sold. How you chop that up into 'winning' is semantics.
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Sep 3, 2013 18:42
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Barudak posted:I think this is also a big reason why the tablet isn't an appealing add-on for the console; it is an experience the target market for the WiiU is already familiar with and owns. The big huge advantage of the Wii was that its core control was simple and new to the audience and had a perfect price point. If Nintendo wanted to replicate that they should have done something standout different (I have no idea, Oculus Rift? Illumiroom?) and budgeted it to match. This is an important distinction that many nintendo fans, myself included, missed at the time. Moms and grandmas weren't becoming Nintendo fans, they were becoming Wii fans. They wanted to do tennis and bowling and yoga, not play a new console with motion controls. They aren't looking to buy the next Wii because normal people don't do that with their appliances. No one says "I really like my toaster, I can't wait to buy the next one!" The situation is made worse by the fact that the Wii U is so separated from what originally made the Wii work. To take the metaphor further, no one says "I really like my toaster, I can't wait to buy the new one that also acts as a soap dispenser!"
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Sep 3, 2013 18:44
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Sweetgrass posted:"The ONLY successful games on your platform, in the vast majority of all cases." The top 20 N64 games were all published by Nintendo. I don't see how this is anything new for a Nintendo console, their strategy has always focused on selling first and second party games first and foremost.
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Sep 3, 2013 18:45
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Jet Set Jettison posted:We were talking about who won the last generation of consoles though? I get that the Wii was the least appealing console to the hardcore gamer but it did have an 8:1 attach rate for a significant period of time.
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Sep 3, 2013 18:45
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I dislike framing things in the context of a console 'war' that needs to be won. Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo all benefit from being in competition with each other. If Xbox was a monopoly, there'd be no check and balance against all of the poo poo they've spent the last 3 months retconning to win back customers. Wii U supporting used games had to have set some precedent that Sony could point to if they needed to when they decided to support them, and then Microsoft had no leg to stand on. If Nintendo leaves the console hardware market, it's one less competitor and one less company keeping the others honest. Valve is not ready to step up and replace them in the market, and OUYA sure as gently caress isn't. Wii U is a terrible failure, BUT (b-u-t) the fact that Nintendo experiments and thinks differently with how they approach things is needed in this space, even if they're so backwards and dumb in so many areas that they end up crippling themselves. We already know with Move, Kinect, and Smartglass, that Sony and Microsoft are not creative enough to come up with their own loving ideas and have to crib them instead. The differences between PS4/Xbone are even more miniscule than the PS3 and 360. There's no spectrum. I think Nintendo has to exist as a console manufacturer solely so that we see what ideas they come up with next, because nobody else seems to have any.
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Sep 3, 2013 18:47
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Astro7x posted:How are people even saying that the Wii didn't win the last generation when Nintendo went 30 years without posting a single profit loss until very recently. Anyone who brings up this particular gem deserves a spur in the rear end. Straight up the hole. Especially when it's done in complete ignorance of the fact that both the N64 and the GameCube were SOUNDLY outsold by the competition during their respective generations, the GameCube itself being the capstone of three generations where Nintendo's home consoles sold less and less after their NES debut. Had there actually been real competition for their handhelds (Sega was never solid competition for Nintendo and later Sony, in the home console space or the handheld space, no matter how much THAT particular set of fanboys wants to believe otherwise), you have to wonder how well the company would have withstood that test. It's like "B-B-B-BUT THE WII WON" is being used as a rally cry to deflect the conversation away from the trainwreck that the Wii U is. It's pretty obvious that NOT EVEN THE MARKET really gives a poo poo that the Wii "won" the last cycle. That they profited even while they sold fewer and fewer consoles leading up to the Wii doesn't change this: They'd lost the "core" market demographics that they once captured (and pretty much created when they debuted the NES), and had they continued to target them in the aftermath of the PS1 and PS2's compete dominance of the market, in the face of competition like Microsoft who could literally spend more money than Nintendo is actually WORTH just on ADVERTISING their silly boxes, they'd have been in serious trouble. The Wii was an attempt to break out from a cycle in which NINTENDO THEMSELVES only saw themselves continuing to lose marketshare despite any potential profitability they could squeeze out of another system that sat in dead last (propped up by their handhelds yet again, most likely). deadwing posted:The top 20 N64 games were all published by Nintendo. I don't see how this is anything new for a Nintendo console, their strategy has always focused on selling first and second party games first and foremost. The N64 was also outsold heavily by the PS1, and the console was defined by...the loss of major Japanese and western third party support. The fury some people displayed over Final Fantasy 7 going to the PS1 was legendary. fivegears4reverse fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Sep 3, 2013 |
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Sep 3, 2013 19:16
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Well I mean as far as "victories" go, last gen was Wii 100 million, Xbox 360 78 million, PS3 78 million. The generation before was PS2 152 million, Xbox 25 million, Gamecube 22 million (and Dreamcast 10 million in its truncated life) The generation before that was PS1 102 million, N64 33 million, Saturn 9 million (and 3DO 2 million, Jaguar 0.25 million) I don't think it takes much to see that the Wii's lead last time isn't the kind of unqualified lead the PS1 and PS2 had, especially considering that 360 and PS3 users bought slightly more games per system, as well as undeniably buying a lot more downloadable titles and being willing to pay for ongoing subscriptions from the console makers (Live Gold and PSN+).
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Sep 3, 2013 19:22
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Bovineicide posted:My bad. I read that as asking them to go third party because people just love to beat that dead horse. What you were saying there makes even less sense, though. Having them be a first party and a third party at the same time doesn't work. Hudson tried that back in the day and it didn't last. Is there a specific reason it wouldn't work? I don't recall what happened with Hudson, but I don't see any logical reason as to why Nintendo would be doomed if they kept up their handheld business while allowing Nintendo games to be published on other systems. I'll admit it sounds weird, but I really see no reason why it would damage them. They could ditch the burden of manufacturing consoles that don't have a huge profit margin, while maximizing profits on their games by allowing a wider audience to buy them. The only reason I can see it being a bad idea is if Nintendo is making boat loads of cash off of third party licensing, which may have been the case with the Wii, but not with the Wii U. Install Windows posted:The generation before was PS2 152 million Holy poo poo, that thing sold as many units as the 360 and PS3 combined? 
veni veni veni fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Sep 3, 2013 |
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Sep 3, 2013 19:28
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Jet Set Jettison posted:Wii sold the most and made the most money but did it win the hearts and minds of the people? I know you're joking about 'winning the hearts and minds of the people', but the fact they haven't is a not insignifcant part of why the Wii U is doing so badly. Consoles sold and profit made in a single generation, or fixating on who won the 'console war' on that basis is missing the bigger picture. It certainly hasn't helped the Wii U's sales much. The Wii was a fad, like Big Mouth Billy Bass and like Big Mouth Billy Bass a large amount of people bought a Wii for novelty value, got a little bit of fun out of it then moved onto something else. The Wii didn't create a new and lasting market or crop of gaming hobbyists any more than Big Mouth Billy Bass created animatronic fish hobbyists, there were not people lining up to buy the next generation of scat-singing crab and a large amount of the people who bought a Wii are not buying a WiiU for the same reasons. The novelty is gone and they can pull the old one out of the cupboard anyway and play Wii Sports. I don't think anyone can seriously argue that the Wii wasn't a flash in the pan or an anomaly. But unlike animatronic fish there are people who consistently buy games consoles and the consoles they buy and the reasons they buy them are different from the reasons the Wii sold so well. In terms of winning hearts and minds you've got to look at Nintendo's and the Wii U's relevancy because like Nintendo themselves people seem to be living in the past when judging it. A significant amount of people who buy consoles, or have consoles bought them did not grow up with Nintendo. Also outside of the US and Japan at the time of the NES and SNES, by far the large majority of people owned other consoles than Nintendo consoles and were not playing Nintendo games. The original Playstation came out in 1994, people in their 30s grew up with that generation. When a lot of people think of Nintendo they're gonna think of the N64 first off, they're gonna think of how third party support paled in comparison to the PSX among other things. If we consider the Gamecube a failure then the N64 was a failure, that's a decade of Nintendo being an also-ran as far as home consoles are concerned. It's taken them until now to even release a HD console, their online is still trash. It's not a new thing that Nintendo's image has been soured, it was soured for a lot of people post SNES. People just don't care about them when they can buy a Playstation or Xbox and know the support in regards to games and features will be there. My point is, other than the Wii fad and their handhelds they've gotten less and less relevant every single generation the Wii U's sales reflect that and this is just a part of the reason the Wii U isn't selling.
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Sep 3, 2013 19:29
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Sweetgrass posted:And gently caress knows what that tie -in number looks like in comparison to Xbox and PS now, I can't even find data like that from the past two years and it could be wildly different. From Nintendo's very own financial report the Wii's lifetime tie in ratio is 8.7:1, as of June this year; Sony and Microsoft both appear to only quote total software sales when they hit a milestone. If VGChartz is to be believed, the Dreamcast (which people claim was killed by rampant piracy) was 7.9:1, the PS3 and X360 are a little higher, but 8.7:1 isn't outrageously low compared to them or anything else historically. The DS and 3DS being down at 6.1:1 and 3.3:1 respectively is more interesting. edit: Gamecube ended at 9.6:1, which kinda implies that tie in rates are unrelated to overall console success. Oh well! Edmund Honda fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Sep 3, 2013 |
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Sep 3, 2013 19:32
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fivegears4reverse posted:Anyone who brings up this particular gem deserves a spur in the rear end. Straight up the hole. Especially when it's done in complete ignorance of the fact that both the N64 and the GameCube were SOUNDLY outsold by the competition during their respective generations, the GameCube itself being the capstone of three generations where Nintendo's home consoles sold less and less after their NES debut. Had there actually been real competition for their handhelds (Sega was never solid competition for Nintendo and later Sony, in the home console space or the handheld space, no matter how much THAT particular set of fanboys wants to believe otherwise), you have to wonder how well the company would have withstood that test. Maybe you should calm the gently caress down buddy
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Sep 3, 2013 19:36
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That's insane. There's a ton more great games to but on 3DS then the Wii. How could the attach be so low?
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Sep 3, 2013 19:37
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greatn posted:That's insane. There's a ton more great games to but on 3DS then the Wii. How could the attach be so low? Lack of digital download titles for the DS? Once you bought Monster Hunter/Animal Crossing it's all over for you?
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Sep 3, 2013 19:39
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greatn posted:That's insane. There's a ton more great games to but on 3DS then the Wii. How could the attach be so low? Because most people who bought a Wii have a different criteria as to what a good game is.
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Sep 3, 2013 19:40
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Barudak posted:Lack of digital download titles for the DS? Once you bought Monster Hunter/Animal Crossing it's all over for you? That rate will change. A new zelda is coming out for the 3DS  Although don't handheld Zeldas do generally worse than console Zeldas? Or am I just imagining this because I never buy handheld Zeldas.
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Sep 3, 2013 19:40
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Jet Set Jettison posted:That rate will change. A new zelda is coming out for the 3DS I don't think Zelda in general does well although I don't know the console/handheld dichotomy. The last good handheld Zelda was Minish Cap so they've not exactly had a good track-record lately.
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Sep 3, 2013 19:41
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greatn posted:That's insane. There's a ton more great games to but on 3DS then the Wii. How could the attach be so low? Because the people who weren't in the typical gaming audience weren't buying what you and I would deem quality Wii games, they were buying up shovelware minigame collections like Carnival Games, which is why basically every title on the Wii was that. Then when phones came along and had established themselves as offering the same level of games in a handheld form factor and priced at $1/$2 per game instead of paying $20 for a handful of games of varying quality, that audience put aside their Wii to shift to mobile games.
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Sep 3, 2013 19:47
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Barudak posted:I don't think Zelda in general does well although I don't know the console/handheld dichotomy. The last good handheld Zelda was Minish Cap so they've not exactly had a good track-record lately. Well, Wikipedia suggests that Phantom Hourglass outsold Skyward Sword, and Spirit Tracks didn't. All of those games were handily outsold by Twilight Princess, the game that is now popular to dislike. It's hard to say, I'm not at all certain how reliable the numbers are though. Zelda certainly doesn't post NSMB numbers, but it's generally a pretty consistent seller. I don't think there's been a terrible Zelda since the CDi games. fivegears4reverse fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Sep 3, 2013 |
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Sep 3, 2013 19:48
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There would be a lot more sales of software on 3DS if the eShop also sold Nintendo DS titles, which I'm hoping is next on the docket when the 2DS comes out, since they're making a point to advertise that it plays both 3DS and DS games (even though the 3DS does this already). There are some pretty rad games for 3DS but it's still a microscopic number compared to how many DS titles exist. Also there are some first party games like Kid Icarus that are still not available in the eShop. And, of course, Nintendo never permanently marks down their own games, so Mario Kart 7 is still the same price it was at launch, for example. These things don't help.
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Sep 3, 2013 20:01
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greatn posted:That's insane. There's a ton more great games to but on 3DS then the Wii. How could the attach be so low? Partly it's just because the attachment rate will rise over the lifetime of a console, partly digital sales maybe? Besides that it looks a bit like the old 'people buy their couple of high-profile Nintendo games and don't bother with the rest' story. Again, VGChartzlol but if that's correct, only 16 games selling over 1m copies kinda implies either a genuine or perceived bad range of games. On the other hand it might just be handheld buying/usage habits are that far different from home console ones. But, VGChartz data.
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Sep 3, 2013 20:04
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Quest For Glory II posted:There would be a lot more sales of software on 3DS if the eShop also sold Nintendo DS titles, which I'm hoping is next on the docket when the 2DS comes out, since they're making a point to advertise that it plays both 3DS and DS games (even though the 3DS does this already). There are some pretty rad games for 3DS but it's still a microscopic number compared to how many DS titles exist. It also doesn't help the staggeringly atrocious layout of the store. Just navigating to what you want to look at is a complete chore and promotion is erratic and ever changing on it. They really should add DS games though. I want picrosses on a single cartridge dammit.
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Sep 3, 2013 20:05
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I still say they should put out some original DS games on their Wii-U marketplace. The tablet is a touchscreen, port them over. People will buy them. Of course, they'd probably treat it like with Virtual Console where they release New Super Mario Bros and Brain Age in the first week, then shovelware every week for the next year.
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Sep 3, 2013 20:08
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Spiffo posted:I still say they should put out some original DS games on their Wii-U marketplace. The tablet is a touchscreen, port them over. People will buy them. Barudak posted:It also doesn't help the staggeringly atrocious layout of the store. Just navigating to what you want to look at is a complete chore and promotion is erratic and ever changing on it. I don't really like the Vita's shop either, to be honest. They're both bad. The most annoying thing about the 3DS eShop is the fact that they constantly shuffle icons around week to week, so you have to spend 5 minutes just looking for the New Releases icon just to get to them. Nevermind the fact that the 3DS eShop has a bottom dock, because they don't put the New Releases category in that dock. For some reason. The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Sep 3, 2013 |
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Sep 3, 2013 20:12
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Quest For Glory II posted:I think that would not work super great because a lot of DS games want you to look at both screens at once and that's not really possible with Wii U. I mean put both screens on the tablet. It's big enough. edit: and if it's not, I guess you could mess with the game a bit to make it supported, but 
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Sep 3, 2013 20:17
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I am not sure that the 3DS currently allows for playing DS games from a download in the first place, since the system locks out the SD card when it's in DS mode for real cartridges.
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Sep 3, 2013 20:18
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Quest For Glory II posted:The most annoying thing about the 3DS eShop is the fact that they constantly shuffle icons around week to week, so you have to spend 5 minutes just looking for the New Releases icon just to get to them. Nevermind the fact that the 3DS eShop has a bottom dock, because they don't put the New Releases category in that dock. For some reason. This blew my mind when I bought the 3DS and decided to look through the shop a week later and I couldn't find what was new the when the whole set of tiles changed. I clicked one of their panels anda larger game list appeared than last week because gently caress you we're Nintendo.
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Sep 3, 2013 20:19
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