If only Frog could have kept WCW afloat

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Who Killed WCW?
	Eric Bischoff
	Hulk Hogan
	Vince Russo
	Jerusalem

flashy_mcflash: Feb 7, 2011

Maxwell Lord posted:

I'm pretty sure if you cocked one ear to the wind that night you would have heard the sound of hundreds of thousands of people changing the channel at once.

# ? Sep 17, 2013 19:15

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# ? May 12, 2024 19:33

Zack_Gochuck: Jan 4, 2007; Stupid Wrestling People

It's pretty hilarious that he even wears the doo-rag in a tuxedo.

# ? Sep 17, 2013 19:26

MassRafTer: May 26, 2001; BAEST MODE!!!

25 minutes until the debut of Glacier, Chris Jericho and THE NWO RUNS WILD

http://psp-tv.com/r/greatestnitroinhistoryofoursport

# ? Sep 18, 2013 00:34

algebra testes: Mar 5, 2011; Lipstick Apathy

quote:

After a 15-year babyface run that started by accident, Hulk Hogan turned heel amidst incredible heat in an angle that will be remembered for years as the climax of WCW's Bash at the Beach PPV show on 7/7 in Daytona Beach.

Hogan turned out to be the mysterious third man on the "Outsiders" team with Kevin Nash and Scott Hall, but didn't appear until 16:00 into the main event, which had turned into a tag match with Nash & Hall vs. Sting & Randy Savage, after Lex Luger had been stretchered out in the early moments.

Hogan came out to a babyface pop after Nash had delivered a low blow on Savage. After Hogan teased going after Nash and Hall, and they bailed out of the ring, he then legdropped Savage twice, threw the referee out of the ring, legdropped Savage a third time and covered Savage while Hall counted the pin. The heat, with a literal flood of debris being thrown at the ring, was as intense as anything seen in U.S. rings at a major arena since Jake Roberts and Love Machine were headlining Los Angeles for AAA. After the match, Hogan gave one of his best interviews in years, basically talking about building a giant organization up North (the World Wrestling Federation) and making the owners of that company millions of dollars, then coming to work for Billionaire Ted, who offered him millions. Hogan portrayed it as if Hogan had proved he was bigger than pro wrestling, and that the WCW fans were Johnny-come-latelys who wouldn't even be attending matches for the group if Hogan hadn't have joined and basically called the fans garbage and told them to stick it because of the way they had reacted to him the past few months after he had done all kinds of charity work. The half-shoot, half-work interview was strong and focused enough that it incited enough heat that some fans in the building were ripping up and throwing down their Hogan merchandise and a few people were even crying. Still, according to live reports, approximately 25% of the fans were still cheering Hogan, Nash and Hall (the latter two of whom were reduced to background performers as Hogan held the spotlight at the finish). Nash and Hall had received a predominately babyface reaction when the match began.

What appears is that WCW will be built around a worked promotion vs. promotion feud for the foreseeable future, very similar to the angle that made New Japan millions in 1995-96. The outsider group will be called the New World Order of Wrestling, with Hogan, Hall and Nash. No doubt Jeff Jarrett and Ted DiBiase will join the group in the fall when their Titan contracts expire. The Nasty Boys teased on Nitro joining the group, and no doubt a few others from WCW will "jump" as well, along with WCW making significant plays for any mainline Titan talent whose contract comes due such as Davey Boy Smith.

The Hogan turn totally overshadowed the best match on a WCW PPV show in several years--the Rey Misterio Jr. vs. Psicosis opener which was described by one reader as "the first great match of the 21st century." The two combined pulling out their expected daredevil and intricate precision high spots with strong mat wrestling and more selling and psychology than they would do in Mexico, Japan or ECW. I'd rate this match behind only the Misterio Jr. vs. Juventud Guerrera match in Philadelphia as the best match in the U.S. of 1996.

Hogan had agreed to do the heel turn about 11 days before the show, largely because there was no place left in WCW for him had he not chosen to do so. Hogan's contract with WCW was scheduled to expire after two more PPV shows, the "Hog Wild" show in Sturgis, SD next month and "Halloween Havoc" in Las Vegas where, by virtue of a sponsorship deal with Slim Jim's, they had long promised a Hogan vs. Randy Savage main event. Since WCW largely focuses its company around Monday night television ratings and PPV buy rates, Hogan's huge contract became expendable. Since Hogan doesn't work arena dates, his staying or going isn't a factor on them. In Hogan's usual great knack of timing, he left WCW to do a movie with Roddy Piper and Gary Busey just before the NBA playoffs changed the Monday Nitro time slot and wreaked havoc on the ratings, which appeared to be a great leverage move. However, in the expansion to two hours, the show's ratings have increased to their consistently highest level to date with Hogan not on any of the shows. This weakened his leverage position as compared with Bischoff's in negotiations to stay at his incredible money deal. While Hogan has continued to draw much stronger buy rates than WCW has averaged without him, although the gap between those sets of numbers has declined as time has gone on, the belief is the new program with Nash and Hall was hot enough and would draw basically as well with or without Hogan. Thus Hogan's huge cut of the PPV revenue would no longer be worth it. But in the end, Hogan proved to be the ultimate fox once again, in that this angle on the surface appears to be the hottest angle in the history of WCW, and Hogan, who a few weeks ago looked like the real outsider, maneuvered himself back into being the centerpiece.

Even though many would argue the Hogan turn was long overdue based on fan reaction to him particularly in the Carolinas and in the major cities where fans are more oriented toward cheering for their favorites (ie Ric Flair) than being the programmed response robots wrestling fans have long been taken for granted as being by those who run the business. However, it didn't come without major risks. Hogan's name was still a factor in buy rates, largely believed to be coming from young children who wouldn't be as apt to beg parents to buy the shows to see a heel Hogan. Whatever revenue WCW merchandise brings in was put at major risk as well, as Hogan was the top item seller and clearly those numbers should drop substantially. For older and long-time fans, seeing the biggest name in American wrestling do his first turn on a national scale is going to spark interest in a big way, particularly short term. WCW officials knew that the Hogan turn had to be done right or it wouldn't be worth the risks, and it could only be done once, and long-term plans had to be finalized. There was legit fear basically up until the last day that Hogan would change his mind at the last minute, as he's done in the past when it comes to major angles that would leave him laying or doing jobs that would elevate others to a parity position. A "Plan B" contingency idea was that Sting would do a heel turn and join the Outsiders, largely due to the belief that too many people had speculated about Luger turning (which was the original plan) or Savage turning but nobody had speculated on Sting turning and the company wanted a shocking finish to the show. Hogan's agreement, after a meeting on or around 6/26 between Bischoff and Hogan in Los Angeles, where Hogan is doing a movie called "The Overlords," was still being worked on as late as the afternoon of the show. It was at about that time when Bischoff reportedly told Hall and Nash not to worry about the third man, as the three had up to that point had many discussions and brought up several names. Because Bischoff didn't arrive at the building until moments before the start of the live Main Event show because of last minute working out of details with Hogan, WCW created yet another last minute angle claiming Bischoff wasn't even there (he was) and that he might have been kidnapped, an angle that had no conclusion on the PPV show because it wasn't planned in advance. The angle was pretty much blown off on television the next day when Bischoff said he was simply at some high level meetings at the last minute.

WCW had attempted to keep the identity of the third man a secret, and largely succeeded, to the point where speculation had taken up a life of its own, with every WWF wrestler missing a show and his family members, whether under contract or not, becoming fodder for the rumor mill. Within the company, only a few knew it was Hogan although by the middle of the past week many who didn't know for sure were strongly expecting Hogan was the one and there were those who did know. Hall was telling people that he didn't know until two hours before match time although that's somewhat hard to believe.

In the commentary on the PPV show, Hall and Nash were most of the time clumsily referred to as simply "The Outsiders." There were references to them as Hall and Nash with no first names, a few times but not many times during the match, which made the announcing awkward in the main event.

edit: Count down to the Montreal Screwjob starts now :siren:

quote:

Bret Hart is currently not under contract.

algebra testes fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Sep 18, 2013

# ? Sep 18, 2013 10:46

LvK: Feb 27, 2006; FIVE STARS!!

For those curious, as far as I can tell the movie Hulk was filming never materialized.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 13:00

El Gallinero Gros: Mar 17, 2010

Man, can you imagine a GDT for Bash at the Beach if it were to happen today? People would be going nuclear.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 13:53

Zack_Gochuck: Jan 4, 2007; Stupid Wrestling People

Half the thread would go nuclear because they thought it was cool. The other half would go nuclear because they read it was supposed to be Sting on nodq.com and WCW is loving up his push.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 14:13

Red: Apr 15, 2003; Yeah, great at getting us into Wawa.

El Gallinero Gros posted:

Man, can you imagine a GDT for Bash at the Beach if it were to happen today? People would be going nuclear.

Size-wise, it would be a mega-thread that would cripple the SA servers.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 15:38

Punch McLightning: Sep 19, 2005; you know what that means; Grimey Drawer

There would be 40 pages of people posting HOLY poo poo, and then 40 pages of people asking what they missed. And then 40 pages of bitching about it.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 18:33

flashy_mcflash: Feb 7, 2011

Rodney the Piper posted:

There would be 40 pages of people posting HOLY poo poo, and then 40 pages of people asking what they missed. And then 40 pages of bitching about it.

"Yeah, Kevin Nash, who never drew a loving dime, is gonna save this company *eyes roll back so far I can see my brain*"

# ? Sep 18, 2013 18:35

Punch McLightning: Sep 19, 2005; you know what that means; Grimey Drawer

flashy_mcflash posted:

"Yeah, Kevin Nash, who never drew a loving dime, is gonna save this company *eyes roll back so far I can see my brain*"

Razor Ramon's a midcard who hasn't done poo poo.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 18:56

triplexpac: Mar 24, 2007; Suck it
Two tears in a bucket
And then another thing
I'm not the one they'll try their luck with
Hit hard like brass knuckles
See your face through the turnbuckle dude
I got no love for you

Rodney the Piper posted:

Razor Ramon's a midcard who hasn't done poo poo.

Yeah except all the smarks loved Razor and Diesel at the time, check and mate :colbert:

*Source: Kevin Nash

# ? Sep 18, 2013 19:31

Call Me Charlie: Dec 3, 2005; by Smythe

I love how all the excuses on why Hogan can't turn heel are basically the same ones people use for Cena today.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 19:41

MassRafTer: May 26, 2001; BAEST MODE!!!

Call Me Charlie posted:

I love how all the excuses on why Hogan can't turn heel are basically the same ones people use for Cena today.

Except in Cena's case he is a ratings mover while Hogan was not, he has several endorsement deals while Hogan had Pastamania and the WWE merchandising machine of 2013 dwarfs the WCW merchandise closet of 1996 to such a degree it's silly. Cena also doesn't have a prohibitively expensive contract that may not be worth it if his character doesn't freshen up.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 19:44

El Gallinero Gros: Mar 17, 2010

Also at this point they've figured out how to react to Cena getting boo'd whereas they probably panicked like hell when it started with Hogan.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 19:45

ColonelJohnMatrix: Jun 24, 2006; Because all fucking hell is going to break loose

I loved reading that retro Observer. Hulk really is the King of the Carnies�, always putting himself in the right place at the right time to maximize his income.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 19:47

CopywrightMMXI: Jun 1, 2011; One time a guy stole some downhill skis out of my jeep and I was so mad I punched a mailbox. I'm against crime, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

Call Me Charlie posted:

I love how all the excuses on why Hogan can't turn heel are basically the same ones people use for Cena today.

John Cena already is a heel, but he's a heel aimed only at smarks. Smarks wants Cena to behave like a traditional heel just so they can cheer him. Cena is doing everything that smarks hate. Seriously, Cena in his current incarnation is a better heel for opponents like Bryna, Punk or RVD than any traditional heel chracter would be.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 19:52

Schlitzkrieg Bop: Sep 19, 2005

What's the story with Hogan's babyface run being started by accident? Wikipedia suggests it was because they used Iron Sheik as a transitional champ after Backlund refused to lose the title to Hogan. So I guess they originally planned on Hogan holding the title as a heel?

# ? Sep 18, 2013 19:58

haljordan: Oct 22, 2004; the corpse of god is love.

triplexpac posted:

Yeah except all the smarks loved Razor and Diesel at the time, check and mate

*Source: Kevin Nash

"Also Kevin Nash's cameo in Grandma's Boy was Oscar-worthy."

# ? Sep 18, 2013 19:59

oldfan: Jul 22, 2007; "Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."

Schlitzkrieg Bop posted:

What's the story with Hogan's babyface run being started by accident? Wikipedia suggests it was because they used Iron Sheik as a transitional champ after Backlund refused to lose the title to Hogan. So I guess they originally planned on Hogan holding the title as a heel?

Wrong run, it's talking about the AWA. Hogan was a typical traveling territorial heel early in his career, which meant that he'd spend a few months to a year in a territory and then move to the next one when he was out of programs. He moved to the AWA for his next heel run in 1981, but got huge face pops so Verne immediately made him, well, his replacement Verne as the top face in the company instead.

By the time Vince brought Hogan back to WWF in 1983, Hogan was one of the biggest face stars in the country, and he was intended to be the new WWF superface from day 1.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 20:01

Schlitzkrieg Bop: Sep 19, 2005

Oh okay, that makes sense. For some reason I thought he was working heel through his time in the AWA.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 20:03

El Gallinero Gros: Mar 17, 2010

Schlitzkrieg Bop posted:

Oh okay, that makes sense. For some reason I thought he was working heel through his time in the AWA.

He was a heel in his first run in WWE (and got really racial with Tony Atlas) and was managed by Grand Wizard.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 20:06

Zack_Gochuck: Jan 4, 2007; Stupid Wrestling People

CopywrightMMXI posted:

John Cena already is a heel, but he's a heel aimed only at smarks. Smarks wants Cena to behave like a traditional heel just so they can cheer him. Cena is doing everything that smarks hate. Seriously, Cena in his current incarnation is a better heel for opponents like Bryna, Punk or RVD than any traditional heel chracter would be.

Think of it like Bret Hart in 1997. The smarks are Canada.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 20:57

coconono: Aug 11, 2004; KISS ME KRIS

El Gallinero Gros posted:

He was a heel in his first run in WWE (and got really racial with Tony Atlas) and was managed by Grand Wizard.

Its WWF.
http://youtu.be/XqVHcQANNdE
And his manager was Blassie. Grand Wizard never managed him.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 21:14

EugeneJ: Feb 5, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

coconono posted:

Its WWF.
http://youtu.be/XqVHcQANNdE
And his manager was Blassie. Grand Wizard never managed him.

Grand Wizard managed him when he was Terry "The Hulk" Boulder, iirc

# ? Sep 18, 2013 21:38

coconono: Aug 11, 2004; KISS ME KRIS

EugeneJ posted:

Grand Wizard managed him when he was Terry "The Hulk" Boulder, iirc

I can't find footage or wiki supporting this. Closest I have is Iron Sheik being managed by Grand Wizard(who died in 83).

Hogan and Blassie were a thing for sure.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 21:56

MassRafTer: May 26, 2001; BAEST MODE!!!

El Gallinero Gros posted:

Man, can you imagine a GDT for Bash at the Beach if it were to happen today? People would be going nuclear.

I remember the opposite of that kind of nuclear in Prodigy Wrestlechat for Halloween Havoc 98 and Starrcade.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 22:18

Bigass Moth: Mar 6, 2004; I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.

he knows...

Schlitzkrieg Bop posted:

Oh okay, that makes sense. For some reason I thought he was working heel through his time in the AWA.

It's also worth noting that Hogan got screwed out of both the AWA and NWA titles during his heeling days, but that was kind of the norm in that period with the traveling champions and Verne's stranglehold in the AWA. I guess you could say he was screwed out of the IWGP title too since he won the tournament but Inoki didn't create an actual championship until years later.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 22:55

MassRafTer: May 26, 2001; BAEST MODE!!!

Bigass Moth posted:

It's also worth noting that Hogan got screwed out of both the AWA and NWA titles during his heeling days, but that was kind of the norm in that period with the traveling champions and Verne's stranglehold in the AWA. I guess you could say he was screwed out of the IWGP title too since he won the tournament but Inoki didn't create an actual championship until years later.

I don't think there was a time Hogan was ever in consideration for the NWA title. He wasn't even really that screwed out of the AWA title because as backwards as Vern was the major things keeping the belt off Hogan were the knowledge Hogan was about to jump and would jump regardless, plus the fact he was aligned with Inoki rather than Baba.

# ? Sep 18, 2013 22:57

cucka: Nov 4, 2009; TOUCHDOWN DETROIT LIONS
Sorry about all
the bad posting.

Two questions:

1) reading the Hogan contract info pre-NWO, I am shocked how close the NWO came to being really different? Would the NWO be way different with sting?

2) What would have happened if Dustin played ball on the Seven gimmick? I wonder if it coulda worked, IF, a big if, either A) WCW jumped on board with him shooting or B) he didn't shoot in the first place?

E: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeFBBD8VbKc

Him giving this speech in a Bonds jersey, and the irony, is not lost on me. A liar wearing a cheater's jersey to expose another liar.

cucka fucked around with this message at 11:29 on Sep 19, 2013

# ? Sep 19, 2013 11:23

Arbite: Nov 4, 2009

cucka posted:

1) reading the Hogan contract info pre-NWO, I am shocked how close the NWO came to being really different? Would the NWO be way different with sting?

Considering what Hogan tried to do when Pillman was getting some real heat, I'd guess that he'd beat them all in short order, maybe Bischoff could keep that from happening until Starrcade 96.

# ? Sep 19, 2013 12:03

Zack_Gochuck: Jan 4, 2007; Stupid Wrestling People

cucka posted:

2) What would have happened if Dustin played ball on the Seven gimmick? I wonder if it coulda worked, IF, a big if, either A) WCW jumped on board with him shooting or B) he didn't shoot in the first place?

E: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeFBBD8VbKc

Him giving this speech in a Bonds jersey, and the irony, is not lost on me. A liar wearing a cheater's jersey to expose another liar.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't a shoot. I am 99% sure it was Vince Russo worked-shoot bullshit.

# ? Sep 19, 2013 12:18

algebra testes: Mar 5, 2011; Lipstick Apathy

cucka posted:

1) reading the Hogan contract info pre-NWO, I am shocked how close the NWO came to being really different? Would the NWO be way different with sting?

I think so, it was an incredibly hot angle coupled with a really well done heel turn by Hogan. I think, it'd have been big, but it wouldn't have been massive like it was. I mean we poo poo on Hogan for his flaws, but he has unmatched charisma, and that promo at Bash was a home run.

# ? Sep 19, 2013 12:20

cucka: Nov 4, 2009; TOUCHDOWN DETROIT LIONS
Sorry about all
the bad posting.

LordPants posted:

I think so, it was an incredibly hot angle coupled with a really well done heel turn by Hogan. I think, it'd have been big, but it wouldn't have been massive like it was. I mean we poo poo on Hogan for his flaws, but he has unmatched charisma, and that promo at Bash was a home run.

What if they dodged Sting's lack of promo ability and had Nash be the voice? Could it have worked? Potentially, given Hogan's lack of politicing, could Nash have had less clout without Hogan? Or more?

E: Randomly watching old Big Show. He is in way better shape now. It's kinda weird to say. I watched him clearing a battle royal on a random return. At debut he looked fat as poo poo.

cucka fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Sep 19, 2013

# ? Sep 19, 2013 12:50

Bigass Moth: Mar 6, 2004; I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.

he knows...

Seven's intro owned.

# ? Sep 19, 2013 13:12

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Wow, his music was surprisingly good.

# ? Sep 19, 2013 14:44

CVagts: Oct 19, 2009

Watching old Giant/Big Show matches, especially against Hogan, are really funny because Giant bumps like a motherfucker for Hogan, and not like a seven footer should. He doesn't know his own size yet, in addition to being pretty green, and it's night and day from Big Show in his prime.

# ? Sep 19, 2013 15:18

Red: Apr 15, 2003; Yeah, great at getting us into Wawa.

CVagts posted:

Watching old Giant/Big Show matches, especially against Hogan, are really funny because Giant bumps like a motherfucker for Hogan, and not like a seven footer should. He doesn't know his own size yet, in addition to being pretty green, and it's night and day from Big Show in his prime.

I've never been a Show fan, but I loved the crap out of the moment the nWo beats him to a pulp, and they "retire" to the announcers' booth. They realize they left one of their bats in the ring, and order Vincent to retrieve it. When Vince picks it up, he showboats a little, posing over the Giant, who wakes up, and destroys Vincent, prompting the rest of the nWo to run back to the ring. What the hell was that all about?

# ? Sep 19, 2013 15:26

oldpainless: Oct 30, 2009; This 📆 post brought to you by RAID💥: SHADOW LEGENDS👥.
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The Giant looks a lot bigger than Big Show. Was he wearing lifts in WCW?

# ? Sep 19, 2013 15:29

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# ? May 12, 2024 19:33

Gyro Zeppeli: Jul 19, 2012; sure hope no-one throws me off a bridge

oldpainless posted:

The Giant looks a lot bigger than Big Show. Was he wearing lifts in WCW?

Probably, but also need to remember how much thinner he was back then, so it looks less proportionate than he does now.

# ? Sep 19, 2013 15:33

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Hammer House: Stinger Splash Zone > If only Frog could have kept WCW afloat

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