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ArchangeI posted:You got that wrong. Before parties were abolished completely, the SPD was the only party banned by the Nazi government. They never bothered to legally ban the communists because crushing them was so obviously going to happen. The SPD also has the distinction of being the only party in parliament to vote against the Enabling Act ("You can take our lives and our freedom, but you can never take our honor"). No, I don't have that wrong. The communist parties (KPD and off-shoots), along with newspapers and so forth were banned after the Reichstag Fire Decree, with the official reason that they were dangerous to society. The SPD wasn't. They were of course subsequently banned after the Enabling Act went through, but so was literally every party that wasn't the NSDAP. It is true however that they were the only party to vote against the Enabling Act.
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Sep 24, 2013 19:16
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botany posted:No, I don't have that wrong. The communist parties (KPD and off-shoots), along with newspapers and so forth were banned after the Reichstag Fire Decree, with the official reason that they were dangerous to society. The SPD wasn't. They were of course subsequently banned after the Enabling Act went through, but so was literally every party that wasn't the NSDAP. It is true however that they were the only party to vote against the Enabling Act. No, you do have that wrong. The Nazi's very much on purpose did not ban any party at that point, neither the SPD nor the communists. Instead it suspended all civil rights and a large scale campaign to imprison and terrorize started, and targeting the communist party members was one of the main goals, as was targeting any other vocal critics. I have letters between from my grandfather that detail the interrogations he had because he was acquainted with the local SPD candidate who was imprisoned for several weeks following the Reichstagsbrand, because someone had denounced him as endorsing it. The original text can be found here http://i.imgur.com/S3JVRSc.jpg I realize that on the internet no social democrat can ever be a true leftist, and their history around WW1 has some black marks on it, but smearing them over the period of Hitler's ascendancy is pretty silly. Spice World War II fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 09:24
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There's also this bit where they use the Freikorps to hunt down communists and kill Liebknecht and Luxemburg.
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Sep 25, 2013 10:34
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The one thing I dont understand about the result of the election: Wasnt it generally accepted before the election that the "german middleclass" does not want to become the wallet for the rest of europe? If so, why did so many people vote the CDU?
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Sep 25, 2013 11:39
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Nektu posted:The one thing I dont understand about the result of the election: Because Merkel promised that the Greeks would have to undertake massive reforms to get the money. That, and the position of the left was that the aid packages should be even larger and include large investments to kickstart the economy. The only option would have been the AfD, which is considered too extreme for the risk-averse middle class and still only narrowly missed the necessary 5%.
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Sep 25, 2013 15:09
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ArchangeI posted:Because Merkel promised that the Greeks would have to undertake massive reforms to get the money. That, and the position of the left was that the aid packages should be even larger and include large investments to kickstart the economy. Even though her austerity plans are not working as intended and are just making the situation in greece, spain and portugal worse, and not better. Greece, spain and protugal are cutting expenses by destroying their populations quality of life. France is at the moment doing exactly nothing to deal with the problems looming at the horizon - hollande seems to be still trying to go for the "german wallet" solution. Someone earlier in the thread wondered how the AfD managed to suck votes from the FDP. The reason is hidden here. The big structural problems of the euro are not even close to be solved, and there is still a non-trivial chance that the whole euro-project will end in tears for everybody involved, and the FDP had nothing to accomondate their more pessimistic (or realistic?) members. We even have a thread for that: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3448351 In between the "germans are nazis and just want to starve us" or "lazy southeners just want our money" posts there even is lots of actual information. ArchangeI posted:The only option would have been the AfD, which is considered too extreme for the risk-averse middle class and still only narrowly missed the necessary 5%. Nektu fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 17:03
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Nektu posted:Someone earlier in the thread wondered how the AfD managed to suck votes from the FDP. The reason is hidden here. The big structural problems of the euro are not even close to be solved, and there is still a non-trivial chance that the whole euro-project will end in tears for everybody involved, and the FDP had nothing to accomondate their more pessimistic (or realistic?) members.
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Sep 25, 2013 17:15
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Nektu posted:I guess thats the point. If you are hosed either way, most prefer a loving at an as of now unspecified future date instead of "now".
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Sep 25, 2013 17:24
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Cingulate posted:You really think that's an apt description of the thought processes of the majority of AfD voters? It is undoubtablely true that the AfD once it existed sucked in voters from the far right fringes, and should it manage to survive the election result, fighting against that influence and that image will probably be the hardest challenge. Personally I also like the idea of a united europe. The problem is more that the workmanship that is trying to build the union right now is severely lacking (and has been from the very beginning - the poo poo that is starting to hit the fan right now has been predicted by some econimists from the get-go). So sadly it seems to me that their central selling point is neither a phantasm nor just paranoia, it is a valid concern - which all the other parties simply dont talk about. And hushing up something like that (because it must not be!) is simply a lie by implication in my opinion. Nektu fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 17:37
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Man, was it mainly the case that German voters turned out to reelect Merkel on Sunday? Is that how states like Nordrhein-Westfalen and Brandenburg have SPD/Linke or Green Landtags but then still sent mostly CDU MPs to the Bundestag?
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Sep 25, 2013 17:46
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Sometimes AfD voters remind me of some former West Germans I know of who lamented that the Wiedervereinigung should never have happened for all the trillions of DM the BRD sank into the East German economy. Why should productive West Germans have to shoulder the burden and pay for the bureaucratic excesses and corruption in the East? It's the same line of really dumb logic. A healthy Eurozone is a healthy Germany.
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Sep 25, 2013 18:08
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Drone posted:Sometimes AfD voters remind me of some former West Germans I know of who lamented that the Wiedervereinigung should never have happened for all the trillions of DM the BRD sank into the East German economy. Why should productive West Germans have to shoulder the burden and pay for the bureaucratic excesses and corruption in the East? Drone posted:It's the same line of really dumb logic. A healthy Eurozone is a healthy Germany.  (It is not healthy by a far margin at the moment). Nektu fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 18:12
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Nektu posted:With the emphasis on "healthy" If you break an ankle, do you just say "gently caress it" and amputate the whole leg?  Empty hyperbole is fun, but not out of place in a discussion as heated as Eurosceptics seem to think it is.
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Sep 25, 2013 18:21
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Drone posted:If you break an ankle, do you just say "gently caress it" and amputate the whole leg? My personal rationale for voting AfD was more like: even if they manage to enter the bundestag, not much will change at the moment. It is however a good idea to enter different viewpoints into the discussion (wait, which discussion? Oh yes, there was none). And if they turn out to be nazi shits after all, Ill just vote someone else the next time. Edit: I can only recommend again to read at least the OP of this thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3448351&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1 to get a vague idea about what needs to be done to make the eurozone healthy, and about how much of that is not being done at the moment... Nektu fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 18:28
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It is still being discussed and was before the election. The AfD just likes to present itself as the victim of some huge conspiracy where only they dare to speak the truth while all other established parties and the media try to cover it up. The fact of the matter is: Look at any newspaper, any political talk show in the months before the election and you'll most likely see it being discussed at length. Between the five major established parties you also had quite a wide range of positions on how to solve the Euro crisis, from support for Euro-bonds and a stronger European integration of financial policy (see Ymel's comment in the post you linked, for example) to the shitshow that has been Merkel's piecemeal approach. AfD took some really extreme positions such as effectively ending the Euro altogether. The reason those positions weren't as widely discussed is because they're loving retarded, harmful and unrealistic. Plus, beyond that AfD's Europe policies were pretty thin and amounted to basically FYGM, or rather "FYGM, das wird man ja wohl noch sagen dürfen". And that's ignoring the rest of their program, which included among other things some pretty regressive social positions on homosexual marriage and adoption and a loving flat tax system.
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Sep 25, 2013 20:23
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Drone posted:Sometimes AfD voters remind me of some former West Germans I know of who lamented that the Wiedervereinigung should never have happened for all the trillions of DM the BRD sank into the East German economy. Why should productive West Germans have to shoulder the burden and pay for the bureaucratic excesses and corruption in the East? only those who had no loving clue about their own countrys history argumented like that but I don't think thats the case with most AfD voters
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Sep 25, 2013 20:50
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Teron D Amun posted:only those who had no loving clue about their own countrys history argumented like that but I don't think thats the case with most AfD voters I am pretty sure most AfD voters have no loving clue about anything. This tale that the AfD is the last remaining voice of rationality is hilariously naive and/or dumb.
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Sep 25, 2013 20:59
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parrhesia posted:It is still being discussed and was before the election. The AfD just likes to present itself as the victim of some huge conspiracy where only they dare to speak the truth while all other established parties and the media try to cover it up. parrhesia posted:The fact of the matter is: Look at any newspaper, any political talk show in the months before the election and you'll most likely see it being discussed at length. There is a good chance that everybody who voted CDU because "merkel promised that we will not pay" is deluding themselves - to get rid of the crisis we either have to pay by going all out (SPD/greens) or by paying for the loss of the euro. And no, no party at all (not even the AfD to be honest) has provided a credible way out of the crisis that does not include enourmous financial strains on germany. Should that money we are guaranteeing for at the ECB become due at some point in the future, we can look forward to austerity measures that will make the agenda 2010 look like childs play, because our schuldenbremse does not allow the government to finance that poo poo with more debt. Of course its not only the money we are vouching for right now, it is also the money that will come on top of that. Because we all know that greece will need another lease. Only one of course. And its a small one. Promise! That the money will come due is hardly impossible, because the austerity approach merkel tried is not working as hoped. And the funny thing is - all that money is not actually helping the greeks (that talk about the lazy southeners taking our money for themselves is bullshit - they see none of it). Greece is in the shitter, spain and portugal too. Italy is close. Europe is getting really lovely, really fast and imposes hardships on its population that people 10 years ago would simply have believed to be impossible in western europe. We in germany are just in the luxurious position that we can ignore all that right now, because it hasent reached us yet. parrhesia posted:AfD took some really extreme positions such as effectively ending the Euro altogether. The reason those positions weren't as widely discussed is because they're loving retarded, harmful and unrealistic. parrhesia posted:And that's ignoring the rest of their program, which included among other things some pretty regressive social positions on homosexual marriage and adoption and a loving flat tax system. That the AfD is a deeply conservative party is undoubtely true. ArchangeI posted:I am pretty sure most AfD voters have no loving clue about anything. Nektu fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 22:17
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Nektu posted:
http://afdwaehlerstellensichvor.tumblr.com/ Now tell me that these are people capable and willing to engage in a reasoned debate.
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Sep 25, 2013 22:39
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ArchangeI posted:http://afdwaehlerstellensichvor.tumblr.com/ You can find complete idiots supporting any party if you're just willing to look. Hell, you can find complete idiots on a fanpage for Leibniz Kekse, if you're just willing to look, and set up a "Leibniz-Keks-Esser sind Idioten"-Seite. Greyhawk fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 22:43
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ArchangeI posted:http://afdwaehlerstellensichvor.tumblr.com/ Oh, and have you ever listened to a stammtisch of hardcore CSU voters? It's not a fun experience, let me tell you... Edit: vvvvvv That was never the original argument, and thanks for not reading what I wrote. Here, I will quote the relevant passage for you and bold the interesting parts: Nektu posted:Those few AfD voters that I know personally (myself included) had exactly those thought processes - and my political opinions go from left to conservative depending on the topic (so I guess im in the middle in the endeffect). Nektu fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 22:55
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Greyhawk posted:You can find complete idiots supporting any party if you're just willing to look. that may well be true, but the original argument was that the AfD had no idiots (or very few at most), and I think the way they handled their facebook page shows that this simply isn't true. They have plenty of idiots, and it is naive to think that they don't.
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Sep 25, 2013 23:02
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Nektu posted:I wasnt even aware about the homosexual marriage and adoption thing. Do you have a source for that, because their manifesto does not mention that at all... Yeah, they never bothered to discuss it in their manifesto. It popped up when the Landesverband Berlin released a statement supporting equal rights for homosexual relationships, which caused an uproar among AfD members and an ambiguously worded reply on Facebook from the party leaders. The only direct statement on it that I have found was in the Wahl-o-Mat: Wahl-o-Mat posted:33/38 Adoptionsrechte für Schwule und Lesben Alternative für Deutschland posted:„Die Alternative für Deutschland steht für den Schutz der Familie als Keimzelle der Gesellschaft. Die besten Bedingungen, Kinder aufwachsen zu lassen, bestehen in der klassischen Familie, bestehend aus Mutter, Vater und Kindern. Nur in dieser Konstellation können dem heranwachsenden Kind die notwendigen geschlechtsspezifischen Kompetenzen vermittelt werden. Daher lehnen wir das Adoptionsrecht für gleichgeschlechtliche Lebenspartnerschaften ab. Ausnahmen in Härtefällen sind davon nicht betroffen.” Also mods change my name to Wahl-o-Mat tia
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Sep 25, 2013 23:33
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Nektu posted:or it will just go full on right-wing. Are there indications that it was ever anything but?
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Sep 26, 2013 00:21
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I see we Godwinned the thread, but putting aside who was and wasn't a pushover in the face of the Nazis and whether or not the AfD is full of Ubermensch who are Correct, what's the situation looking like? Are we getting a Great Coalition or another election or what? (Frankly, I kind of enjoy the right wing splintering into smaller and smaller groups and cannibalising itself. Now if only the left wing would stop squabbling about the glorious revolution and unite to bring us a minimum wage, higher taxes for the rich and UHC and other such achievable noble goals.) (Every time a die Linke candidate uses the word Genosse, I tear up a little with pride and joy.  )
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Sep 26, 2013 11:40
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The SPD members also use Genosse by the way. And I still a grand coalition is the most likely outcome. The CDU is already preparing to make big concessions like raising the income tax.
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Sep 26, 2013 11:51
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It's uncomfortable for me when the SPD use it, since they're inching closer and closer to the centre. Of course, I was born in the former USSR, so my views of where the far left, the moderate left and the centre lie are unaligned with other people's. Regardless, I'm amused and heartened by "Tovarish" living on in Germany. Good to hear about the income tax raise, but I do hope they don't decide to tax the lower classes while letting millionaires get off scot-free, again. :/
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Sep 26, 2013 12:04
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They are talking about raising the maximum tax rate. So the lower classes won't be affected. But on the other hand, they are still not ready to introduce a capital tax or a progressive capital gains tax.
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Sep 26, 2013 12:11
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Pretty much all socialist parties of various degrees still use comrade.
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Sep 26, 2013 13:08
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:They are talking about raising the maximum tax rate. So the lower classes won't be affected. But on the other hand, they are still not ready to introduce a capital tax or a progressive capital gains tax. It's actually quite convenient for the CDU. With a bit of messaging they can deflect the majority of the blame for the tax raises on the SPD, yet they get to use all the extra funds they bring in all the same. Also, I've heard of another hilarious option: CDU goes for a coalition with the SPD but also ditches the CSU to move further to the center. Sure, the chances of that happening are about the same as for red-red-green, but could you imagine the fallout?
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Sep 26, 2013 14:53
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The Piratenpartei, just like the AfD, has a habit of whining about the established parties opressing them. Some time ago they raised a constitutional complaint ("Verfassungsbeschwerde") against numerous sections of the ParteiG regarding the financing of parties by public funding. The Bundesverfassungsgericht has now released its decision regarding this matter. For best effect, I suggest reading it yourself. They court threw the complaint out because apparently the Pirate Party cannot find time in their busy schedule to actually sign a document giving their attorneys actual power of, well, attorney.  That clown party really can't die off soon enough.
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Sep 26, 2013 14:57
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quote:Der Antrag ist nicht wirksam anhängig gemacht worden, da der Vertreter der Antragstellerin - auch nach wiederholter Aufforderung durch das Gericht - den Nachweis seiner Bevollmächtigung gemäß § 22 Abs. 2 BVerfGG nicht geführt hat. They've asked them several times for a valid document. That's some really embarassing poo poo. Hah. I wouldn't expect anything else from these amateurs.
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Sep 26, 2013 15:19
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Randler posted:The Piratenpartei, just like the AfD, has a habit of whining about the established parties opressing them. Some time ago they raised a constitutional complaint ("Verfassungsbeschwerde") against numerous sections of the ParteiG regarding the financing of parties by public funding. The Bundesverfassungsgericht has now released its decision regarding this matter. For best effect, I suggest reading it yourself. They court threw the complaint out because apparently the Pirate Party cannot find time in their busy schedule to actually sign a document giving their attorneys actual power of, well, attorney. What has me more concerned with the AfD than the Pirates is that the leadership of the former (as far as I understand) are less of a clowncar act and has more potential to form, coordinate and, uh, "critical-mass" some movement into a legit political party before political agenda, however atrocious, is considered. The Pirate leadership, to this day, strikes me as having a core of Reddit-type hold-on-to-your-principles dudes with a tendency to pick the wrong battles. Wasn't it only a few years ago that they had some defector from another party as their aspiring champion and then contemplated backing him up when he was charged with posession of child pornography and claimed it was "for investigative purposes"? For lack of a more elaborate explanation, they simply don't strike me as a party leadership that is seasoned enough in the political game to know when to cut their losses and move on. AfD crept me the gently caress out the second I saw their founder in a TV interview, simply because I thought "Oh dear christ, stupid people are going to fress this guy out of the hand, aren't they?".
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Sep 26, 2013 15:42
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Haha, Peer Steinbrueck, former candidate for chancellor of the SPD, stepped down from all political offices a couple of minutes ago. Back to the lecture circuit for financial institutions, eh? Well, it certainly pays better than being the chancellor, and the catering is supposedly excellent as well. mcbexx fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Sep 27, 2013 |
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Sep 27, 2013 19:06
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I'm sure we won't miss him.
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Sep 27, 2013 19:30
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Not a big surprise, really. He wasn't going to stick around unless he became chancellor.
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Sep 27, 2013 19:51
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http://www.vice.com/Fringes/kingdom-of-germanyquote:Former chef and martial arts trainer Peter Fitzek has founded his own micronation called the Kingdom of Germany. It consists of several properties around the city of Wittenberg, south of Berlin. It has 25 citizens, its own currency, an official state limousine, and passports. VICE Germany visited Peter back in June to find out how serious he is about this whole starting-a-new-nation thing. That "organization" is part of the (usually far right) free citizens movement and reichsbürger fringe. There are lots of small groups like that make money from gullible idiots or desperate people that see no other way to get out of their financial problems. I had to deal with people like that at work a few times and it's a really sad affair. Still an interesting thing to watch. elwood fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Oct 5, 2013 |
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Oct 5, 2013 08:53
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elwood posted:http://www.vice.com/Fringes/kingdom-of-germany What? A foreign nation occupies German soil? To the Panzerbrigade! Seriously though, sovereign citizens are the worst kind of Querulanten you can get. You have some hardline believers and some people who stand to make money from it at the top, but the bottom tier members are basically recruited from people you kind of feel bad for. Some people just cling to strange beliefs once something has gone wrong in their live. Failed business, bad divorce or a health scare and suddenly they think the state is out to get them and that everybody has been understanding the law wrong but them. It's kinda the same pool of people cults, men's right activists, American Freepers or the German Grundrechtepartei. As sad as some of those people individually might be, though, they are still trying to smear and undermine like your ordinary extremists from the left or right, so they should be treated as such. In case anybody wants to read more on the Reichsbürger people, this German website is a pretty good start,KRR-FAQ.
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Oct 5, 2013 13:19
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Randler posted:http://www.wikimannia.org/ quote:Benachteiligungen von Jungen und Männern, sowie Bevorzugungen von Maiden und Frauen quote:Esst mehr Pasta von Barilla! quote:http://www.wikimannia.org/Inhaltslosigkeit_der_Schwulenszene I'm sure that's far from the worst that's on there. Edit: Oh, far from it. Cingulate fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Oct 5, 2013 |
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Oct 5, 2013 14:21
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elwood posted:http://www.vice.com/Fringes/kingdom-of-germany Awww, this looks like it's just a run-of-the-mill hippie cult commune. I don't even think the cult leader has more than one or two mental illnesses, if even that. For a moment there I really thought the freeman-on-the-land movement had finally reached Germany, the youtube videos of Freie Bürger educating the police about how they serve a Marinegericht would probably entertain me for years. 
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