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spog posted:A Hostile Work Environment. Ok so here's my perspective on that. I'm assuming that however liberal anyone's labour laws are, browsing porn at work is against company policy. If it hasn't been blocked and, as in your scenario, someone is aware that you're doing it then you should face disciplinary action. Unfortunately it sounds like it's very much A Thing in the US (and also here in the UK) that management are often emotionally crippled children so, whilst they have no problem dismissing entire departments because there's no fear of having to actually give bad news to a real walking talking person face to face, they're are incapable of handling a disciplinary conversation with a single employee. Basically, using technology to block sites for no other reason than "they're against policy" is a crutch propping up managers who don't want to face the realities of doing their job - things aren't always nice and occasionally you have to chew someone out. I'd even argue that it's in your favour to allow your employees to get caught out violating policy, because then you know who your problem guys are. However as noted in the edit to my earlier post, thinking about the particular case of porn sites for 5 minutes makes it obvious that there are liability issues from the malware risk so I hold my hands up for being a dumbass with that post. rolleyes fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 13:40
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Pilsner posted:Eh, next to sysadmins, developers are by far (on average) the most computer competent people you'll find. Hahahahahahahahaha you are a riot.
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Oct 18, 2013 14:13
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SEKCobra posted:What do I care if he places his bets in his break via the PC? Could do it via phone as well. It being used outside of breaks is a separate issue. Porn usually goes hand in hand with jacking off, which is obviously extreme misbehavior. And watching porn also doesn't exactly help the image of the company. But honestly, what does it matter to me if Jake from accounting checks his bank account or looks at attractive women in his break? As long as he's not jacking it and not exposing others to it, I couldn't give less fucks. I am not big brother and I don't want to be. I feel like it is no one's business to tell people what they can look at or not. If you really think trying everything to stop people from doing private stuff on their work PC, GJ demotivating your employees. They'll just use their phone or find some other way to occupy themselves during downtime they might have. It is the most retarded thing to try and artificially fill downtime, and I will never get tired of telling people to stop doing it. I'm glad to see your probation did not stop you from continuing to argue with me. Maybe you should read my posts again, where I said I didn't really care what people did on their downtime, but that (in my opinion) I found certain activities to be inappropriate to be done at work or on work computers (like job hunting, or looking at porn). Inappropriate is not synonymous with illegal. And as a counterpoint, my now ex-manager managed to get his work laptop totally hosed up by browsing porn on it via some unsecured wifi at a coffee shop while he was on his lunch break. Had to reformat the entire thing to get rid of the malware/ransomware. It's a good thing PHI wasn't leaked because of it (we hope, anyway). He was not disciplined for this, and gently caress, I was the one who had to reformat his laptop. Not only was it an inappropriate thing to do on his work machine, it could have also opened us up to liability or HIPAA violations. Edit: Honestly, I shouldn't have to debate why looking at porn at work is a really dumb idea. Also, loving gross. Maybe its hard to imagine for the majority of this thread but being a woman in IT and having a male manager who I know is looking at porn every chance he gets (at work!) is pretty loving weird and awkward for me. Luckily he is now my ex-manager. Sirotan fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 14:23
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Pilsner posted:Eh, next to sysadmins, developers are by far (on average) the most computer competent people you'll find.
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Oct 18, 2013 14:31
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Sirotan posted:Edit: Honestly, I shouldn't have to debate why looking at porn at work is a really dumb idea. Also, loving gross. Maybe its hard to imagine for the majority of this thread but being a woman in IT and having a male manager who I know is looking at porn every chance he gets (at work!) is pretty loving weird and awkward for me. Luckily he is now my ex-manager. My point around this scenario was that yes it's gross and definitely shouldn't be going on, and should be reported if found rather than relying on a technical solution to a people problem (although as pointed out, the technical solution is needed to stop a technical problem - the malware). Presumably you did report him, hence the ex-manager? For the record, I'd find it pretty awkward knowing anyone I have to work with was browsing porn regardless of their gender, and I'd be thinking twice before shaking their hand (and probably going straight to the bathroom to wash it afterwards if I had to). It's just... no. rolleyes fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 14:37
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Sirotan posted:Edit: Honestly, I shouldn't have to debate why looking at porn at work is a really dumb idea. Also, loving gross. Maybe its hard to imagine for the majority of this thread but being a woman in IT and having a male manager who I know is looking at porn every chance he gets (at work!) is pretty loving weird and awkward for me. Luckily he is now my ex-manager. My approach is to just not care and try not to think about it, but accept that it probably happens. Make it against policy and if they're discrete enough that you don't find out then whatever. If you're the poor sod who ends up having to fix the machine full of porn popups, and investigate if they leaked anything impotant then that's a bit different, and it should go to their manager and/or HR to deal with. And yeah, in a HIPAA environment it's pretty stupid. Best thing about the proliferation of smartphones and tablets is hopefully most folk will learn to watch their porn on their own drat device! Edit: Leaving my typo of "important" in place, because it's funny. SEKCobra posted:Further research needed! Unfortunately I'm not suitably equipped, though since I do work from home I guess the opportunity would be there https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co_DNpTMKXk Edit: One that might not be blocked outside the UK. Lum fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 14:37
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rolleyes posted:My point around this scenario was that yes it's gross and definitely shouldn't be going on, and should be reported if found rather than relying on a technical solution to a people problem (although as pointed out, the technical solution is needed to stop a technical problem - the malware). I did tell his boss yes, but nothing came of it. He eventually left the job himself one day when he decided he didn't care for it. Of course this was a week or two after being sent to a ~$3k training session.
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Oct 18, 2013 14:40
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Sirotan posted:I did tell his boss yes, but nothing came of it. He eventually left the job himself one day when he decided he didn't care for it. Of course this was a week or two after being sent to a ~$3k training session. My commiserations for your spineless management team then, that does suck.
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Oct 18, 2013 14:46
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Rhymenoserous posted:Hahahahahahahahaha you are a riot. Seriously. I was flabbergasted when I got into this field and discovered how computer-retarded developers are. It still boggles my mind.
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Oct 18, 2013 15:20
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Pilsner posted:Eh, next to sysadmins, developers are by far (on average) the most computer competent people you'll find. I'm a developer. I don't know poo poo about computers because that's not really my job.
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Oct 18, 2013 15:24
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I guess it really depends on the kind of developers and the size of the company. I work in a small company (50 people in four offices over the world) as Lead Developer and IT Manager, and I prefer developers that have worked in other small companies, they tend to have been forced to do things *other* then pure development, which generally vastly improves technical skills in all areas as, in my opinion, learning is almost always best when it's "doing" rather than "reading". My developers are, for the most part, great and can lend their hand to pretty much anything I throw at them, but there are one or two who would be terrible at pretty much anything else. I tend to describe it as being a big cog in a small wheel, as opposed to being a small cog in a big wheel. When you're the small cog you're not forced to do any more, so you just plod along doing the same thing over and over. I don't think I could ever work for a big multinational company, I think it would drive me insane.
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Oct 18, 2013 15:32
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I did what people today would call devops and hated it, it has nothing to do with the size of the company. Its possible to do interesting development work without also having to janitor servers.
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Oct 18, 2013 15:43
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SEKCobra posted:Porn usually goes hand in hand with jacking off Unless you're a DMCA takedown processor.  Moving to the Abuse department of a IDC was awesome but it's also weird when my manager walks up behind me with porn on one of my monitors (that I'm confirming is the DMCA'd material in question) and he doesn't even react.
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Oct 18, 2013 15:52
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I do wonder how all the "uncomfortable around someone watching porn" people would handle living some place like Japan where it seemed like regular newspapers have a porn section and said papers get read on the trains all the time. I don't know, maybe my time living there just kind of changed how I view such things. I personally am a developer who also knows everything from hardware to a good amount of DBA skills as well as some sysadmin stuff. I also have the "pleasure" of fixing all of my family's computer problems. Which is where I had my first windows 8 experience, which caused a burning hatred for that OS.
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Oct 18, 2013 15:52
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Khisanth Magus posted:I do wonder how all the "uncomfortable around someone watching porn" people would handle living some place like Japan where it seemed like regular newspapers have a porn section and said papers get read on the trains all the time. I don't know, maybe my time living there just kind of changed how I view such things. I've lived and worked in Japan and have had plenty of people sitting next to me on a train looking at porn. It's a completely different situation are really has no relevance to whether viewing porn at work is appropriate or not. And I do nothing, they're not my boss and aren't bothering me.
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Oct 18, 2013 15:57
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So a phone call came in: My fiancee's dad called in to ask some email problems he was getting. I have his businesses site and email hosted through a hosting service run by some goons i found on SA mart who have been very reliable in the past. I checked my phone and I was getting the same error. They did a server migration last night so when I first saw these I thought they were DNS issues. So on a whim I logged into my hosting, checked my email accounts in cpanel and every one of the accounts I had is gone. Ive already contacted support and they are resyncing the accounts, but it was a nice heart attack to have first thing in the morning.
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Oct 18, 2013 16:10
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blackswordca posted:So a phone call came in:
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Oct 18, 2013 16:13
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Khisanth Magus posted:I do wonder how all the "uncomfortable around someone watching porn" people would handle living some place like Japan where it seemed like regular newspapers have a porn section and said papers get read on the trains all the time. I don't know, maybe my time living there just kind of changed how I view such things.
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Oct 18, 2013 16:37
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Posting Principle posted:I'm a developer. I don't know poo poo about computers because that's not really my job. I was a developer until very recently, and I know quite a lot about computers but that's because when I first started tinkering with software whilst about 15 all I had access to was a 386 (which was hilariously out of date even then) with Borland Turbo C++ on it, so I was doing things like reading inputs from the mouse directly by dropping into inline Assembly and dealing with interrupts, direct unprotected access to hardware, and manual memory management. If you're new to the development game these days and using a managed language (e.g. C#) then, really, unless you're interested in finding out there's nothing forcing you to learn about the low level workings of computer or what the hardware is because it's all abstracted away from you. Memory management is hidden from you and I/O is very abstracted so you don't really have to care about what you're reading or writing. There are included libraries to do all of the basic stuff so that you don't have to (badly, buggily and unsafely) reinvent the wheel. This is great as it allows you to get on with actually building applications rather than solving the same problem thousands of other developers have also had to solve for themselves, but it does mean you don't necessarily have to know how an SSD differs from an HDD, or have much appreciation for your application's memory utilisation, or even really know what a byte is. Once you get into specialised areas then yes you need to start to understand the platform you're running on, but for Joe Average Developer building business applications it's basically irrelevant.
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Oct 18, 2013 16:45
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rolleyes posted:Although thinking about it, the amount of dodgy adverts with driveby malware installers might be a good liability point. Pretty much. I mean, there's a whole bunch of other stuff involved but reducing exposure on our systems to malware we have to clean up is a pretty big benefit to us as the IT staff.
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Oct 18, 2013 17:02
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I think we are talking about different things. My day job is C++, so I get to deal quite a bit with the underlying platform, especially the Unix environment. But I don't do support, ops, etc. I don't have to know how to mail merge, use exchange, manage printers, configure gpos or any of the stuff like that. That's all "computers" knowledge that is ancillary to what I do, and to an IT person who does that sort of thing, I'm going to look as clueless as the worst secretary or salesperson.
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Oct 18, 2013 17:05
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Posting Principle posted:I think we are talking about different things. I don't care if my developers can administer GPO. It would be nice if they could plug in a mouse without a babysitter or give me a clearer definition of a problem they're having than "it comes up error." Edit: I recently had to help a developer troubleshoot his lovely code, he's bad at his own job as well as being bad at mine
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Oct 18, 2013 17:33
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guppy posted:"it comes up error."  Some important data came in to an employee here, in the form of a vmware vmdk file. What the gently caress? No vmx or anything else, he doesn't need to boot a vm just needs the data. We don't use vmware here is there a recommended free util that can extract data from a vmdk file? I'm seeing lots of stuff on google, some pay some not. I have vmware w/s at home I think I can do it with without the vmx and everytihg else, but no. edit: this looks interesting http://vmxray.com/ browser-based file-extractor. Getting the drive with this vmdk on it in just a bit to try it. Vin BioEthanol fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 17:43
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Che Delilas posted:No, I'm sorry. This is information gathering. I need to get a clear picture of the work environment and expectations of a company before I start working there. That is going to includes questions about their technical processes, hours, scheduling, flexibility, and anything else I can think of that may affect the next several years of my life at this company. I'm going to word the questions in such a way as to not imply a preference on my part, but when I'm job hunting, I'm comparing companies. After-hours policy is another point of comparison. If they pass me over because they think simply wanting to know what my schedule will be like implies laziness, then they've done me a loving favor by not wasting any more of my time. I am not a supplicant, begging for scraps from the king's table. I am a professional. If they can't treat me as one, then I have no interest in a business relationship with them. This, this, a thousand times this. To be honest, if I'm going to be doing 24-7 support, then so be it - but I want to know what you're going to pay me for it. I've spent so many nights here pretty darn late, so many Saturdays, and so many evenings working at home with a 2.7% raise last year and no real bonus to speak of, at least not one commensurate to what I'm getting. I'd rather have no bonus and no after-hours, like my last job. :-/ I put in a minimum 6-8 hours after hours working on stuff that isn't critical/outage/failure/broken/emergency, etc. every week on average. 312 hours over a year estimating conservatively, 40 8-hour days, literally an extra month. If you aren't going to give me a bonus that's equivalent to 12% of my salary, then YotJ I shall. Sometimes I wonder if there's any job that's 9-5 and 9-5 only...
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Oct 18, 2013 18:43
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MJP posted:I put in a minimum 6-8 hours after hours working on stuff that isn't critical/outage/failure/broken/emergency, etc. every week on average. 312 hours over a year estimating conservatively, 40 8-hour days, literally an extra month. If you aren't going to give me a bonus that's equivalent to 12% of my salary, then YotJ I shall.  that's 2 months.
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Oct 18, 2013 18:49
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Sirotan posted:I'm glad to see your probation did not stop you from continuing to argue with me. Maybe you should read my posts again, where I said I didn't really care what people did on their downtime, but that (in my opinion) I found certain activities to be inappropriate to be done at work or on work computers (like job hunting, or looking at porn). Inappropriate is not synonymous with illegal. I'm not really trying to argue with you. And I am totally agreeing on outright blocking porn. But that's about all it should be. There shouldn't be blocks on "Weapons" or "Games". Manage your employees, don't loving censor the internet, it ruins it. Porn is definitely something to keep out of the workplace, because of sexual harassment and the likes alone. But just about anything else isn't something to completely lock away based on stupid banlists that never work anyway. Inb4 torrentfreak banned for "Warez". Too bad my boss wants me to report on relevant/ish stuff on there every once in a while. Judging from this thread I am pretty alone with this view over there, but here it's definitely more common, and as I said before, scanning traffic for words like "boner" is illegal. (Yep, I once was watching a (work-relevant) youtube video with the word "boner" in the title. POS websense blocked it)
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Oct 18, 2013 18:55
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guppy posted:I don't care if my developers can administer GPO. It would be nice if they could plug in a mouse without a babysitter or give me a clearer definition of a problem they're having than "it comes up error." I naively expected developers to be savvy enough to not have six Internet Explorer toolbars. But I guess my first clue should have been still preferring IE when they have access to any browser they could want.
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Oct 18, 2013 19:00
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teethgrinder posted:I naively expected developers to be savvy enough to not have six Internet Explorer toolbars. But I guess my first clue should have been still preferring IE when they have access to any browser they could want. Had an intern from basically a school for programming, 3 years into a 5 year education. "No one in my class knows how to programm. Can you show me some basics?" He also had no idea what vga/dvi is or even what an IDE is. And this is the sorta education considered non plus ultra here 
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Oct 18, 2013 19:05
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SEKCobra posted:He also had no idea what vga is or even what an IDE is. And he couldn't tell me the right DIP switch settings for my 9600 baud serial modem! And he can't terminate a SCSI cable! And he doesn't know about AGP! It's a little hyperbolic, but technologies get outdated. IDE is irrelevant unless you're designing compactflash adapters. It's 2013.
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Oct 18, 2013 19:18
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Oh, incidentally, my current job kind of requires developers to not be absolutely incompetent when it comes to computers, because when you get here on your first day you are given your imaged laptop, then unopened dell boxes with you docking station, 2 monitors, keyboard and mouse, laptop lock, and some cables, and are expected to hook everything up yourself.evol262 posted:And he couldn't tell me the right DIP switch settings for my 9600 baud serial modem! Pretty sure you are thinking of the wrong ide. Khisanth Magus fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 19:19
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evol262 posted:And he couldn't tell me the right DIP switch settings for my 9600 baud serial modem! I hope he meant "Integrated Development Environment" not "Integrated Drive Electronics". IF he meant the latter, then you're absolutely on point. Today's fun: A DBA and an application guy are fighting over Java. One demands OpenJDK for their fun, and the other demands real red-blooded Sun/Oracle Java. And they both demand that they be linked to /usr/java instead of something reasonable like /usr/ORACLEjava and/usr/OpenJDK or something so they can co-habitate. And somehow this is my fault that I can not accommodate. I'm glad my boss gets it and is pushing back, but i'll groaning/laughing/headdesking.
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Oct 18, 2013 19:27
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Khisanth Magus posted:Pretty sure you are thinking of the wrong ide. Edit: I'm not trying to say that "new programmers" don't or shouldn't learn Java, C++/Boost, .NET, or whatever. It's that "I just started programming" doesn't mean "I need an IDE to keep track of my sprawling codebase with loads of libraries". It means "I need to know how to compare Arrays", where the slew of Arraylist<X>.compare() functions IDEs throw at you defeats the purpose of the exercise and swamps the new developer with information that's probably irrelevant to them. evol262 fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 19:28
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evol262 posted:If you mean the "I don't know how to use vim/emacs so I use a memory pig to autocomplete System.Utils.Microsoft.Namespace.Craziness.Method.Name.For.Spergs(h, u, g, e, l, i, s, t, o, f, a, r, g, s)", I mostly think they're irrelevant for new developers, who should never be working in a language/library so big they can't keep it in their head and need to rely on autocomplete.
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Oct 18, 2013 19:33
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Paladine_PSoT posted:
My suffering has impacted my basic math abilities. I wonder at which point I can take advantage of our health care plan's 100% inpatient mental health/rehab alongside the relatively not awful NY state disability?
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Oct 18, 2013 19:40
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evol262 posted:If you mean the "I don't know how to use vim/emacs so I use a memory pig to autocomplete System.Utils.Microsoft.Namespace.Craziness.Method.Name.For.Spergs(h, u, g, e, l, i, s, t, o, f, a, r, g, s)", I mostly think they're irrelevant for new developers, who should never be working in a language/library so big they can't keep it in their head and need to rely on autocomplete. All right, so I used to work in IT and now I'm a developer. This is a strange ideal world you've constructed and I have no interest in arguing with you about whether it's better than reality or whatever (no interest in arguing "shouldn't"). But you're straight-up wrong when you say new programmers don't learn Java or .Net or whatever. Very very few CS programs still lead with C, which is honestly the only modern language small enough that you don't want / need an IDE. Maybe Python, too; a few places I've been which were Python shops didn't bother with IDEs. In any case, people who complain about IDEs being "memory pigs" in the year 2013 have got to be nuts. Even Visual Studio doesn't usually eat more than 2 GB of RAM, and you can hardly buy a lovely computer these days with less than 4. And if you hand a dev something with less than 8, they'll look at you, tilt their head to the side, and a good number of them will hand it back and do their own  .That post would have been true in 2000, maybe. 1990 surely. But it's 2013. Everybody developing Java uses Eclipse or something better, everybody developing .Net uses VS, and few people at the leading edge develop much in C anymore. Microsoft does, but even they use an IDE. e: that said, I'm a vim user anyway; I like the configurability. SolTerrasa fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 19:56
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evol262 posted:And he couldn't tell me the right DIP switch settings for my 9600 baud serial modem! Im talking about the thing you use to make other thingies as a thingie maker
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Oct 18, 2013 20:07
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SolTerrasa posted:Very very few CS programs still lead with C, which is honestly the only modern language small enough that you don't want / need an IDE. Maybe Python, too; a few places I've been which were Python shops didn't bother with IDEs. Scheme! Either way, CS programs should have you use the basics of the language to reimplement the libraries that IDEs help you manage, so you can understand how they work when you don't reimplement them later. By the same token I had to learn how interpreters/TCP/CPU instructions worked and write my own, but typically don't do so every time I want to program something.
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Oct 18, 2013 20:11
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I still have bad dreams about that Scheme / Prolog course I had to take.
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Oct 18, 2013 20:18
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MJP posted:Sometimes I wonder if there's any job that's 9-5 and 9-5 only... Not in this industry. And frankly, I'm perfectly okay with that. Problems happen when they happen, and sometimes more people are needed to handle a problem than are readily at hand on graveyard. Sometimes you need to wake people up so they can be the experts. But it's not a two-way street in far too many companies. When we sacrifice to get the job done, it's up to the company to sacrifice back, to prove that they appreciate it. Too many managers and businesses are unwilling to, and honestly it's partly because too many of us put up with it.
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Oct 18, 2013 20:30
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anthonypants posted:Wait, are you trying to make an argument against designing anything in an IDE in favor of using vim/emacs? I'm making an argument for new developers using a simple editor instead of an IDE, yes. I have no horse in the race for which editor other than it being "not Notepad". SolTerrasa posted:But you're straight-up wrong when you say new programmers don't learn Java or .Net or whatever. SolTerrasa posted:Very very few CS programs still lead with C, which is honestly the only modern language small enough that you don't want / need an IDE. Maybe Python, too; a few places I've been which were Python shops didn't bother with IDEs. quote:In any case, people who complain about IDEs being "memory pigs" in the year 2013 have got to be nuts. Even Visual Studio doesn't usually eat more than 2 GB of RAM, and you can hardly buy a lovely computer these days with less than 4. And if you hand a dev something with less than 8, they'll look at you, tilt their head to the side, and a good number of them will hand it back and do their own SolTerrasa posted:That post would have been true in 2000, maybe. 1990 surely. But it's 2013. Everybody developing Java uses Eclipse or something better, everybody developing .Net uses VS, and few people at the leading edge develop much in C anymore. Microsoft does, but even they use an IDE. I'd rather not be a strawman, so to reiterate the basic argument: SEKCobra comes in and says "I have this guy who says 'I don't know how to program, can you show me some basics?'. He doesn't know what an IDE is!" I said "IDEs are unnecessary and confusing for someone who barely knows how to program, new developers are better off with a text editor (phrased as vim or emacs" New developer. IDE. IDE. New developer. There's zero correlation. And nothing they should be using VS, Eclipse, IntelliJ, PyDev, or anything else for over Notepad++
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Oct 18, 2013 21:14
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