|
Oh, I thought we were talking about Egypt. You know, like the quote in the first part of that post that you made.
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 02:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 05:28 |
|
|
V. Illych L. posted:Oh, I thought we were talking about Egypt. You know, like the quote in the first part of that post that you made. You read "Saudi Arabia has absolutely no right to criticize anyone. In an ideal world they would be kicked out of the UN altogether along with a few other nations." and assumed that "they" meant "Egypt?"
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 02:33
|
|
|
GrumpyDoctor posted:You read "Saudi Arabia has absolutely no right to criticize anyone. In an ideal world they would be kicked out of the UN altogether along with a few other nations." and assumed that "they" meant "Egypt?" No, like they said they read the first bit which was responding to a comment someone made regarding Egypt and made the logical conclusion that the topic for that bit was Egypt. Xandu posted:lol Egypt Al-Saqr posted:the 'liberals' and 'secularists' gargling the military and police sperm. Mr.48 posted:Maybe its just me but I find the idea of a religious tyranny of the majority even less appealing than a secular military dictatorship. Democracy isn't the absolute measure of civilization, its simply a good way of governing an already progressive, educated society. I mean they even reference 'the tyranny of the majority', so obviously they have beef outside of 'absolute monarchy'. The idea that saying that majority Muslim countries shouldn't have democracies because we don't like who they vote for is hosed up still stands.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 02:47
|
|
|
V. Illych L. posted:Oh, I thought we were talking about Egypt. You know, like the quote in the first part of that post that you made. My point still stands in that I dont really give a poo poo about which specific religion we're talking about, and oppose the intrusion of any religion into governance on general principle. Any specific anti-Muslim connotations are the product of your own imagination. Edit: ^^^ For clarification, I'm just saying that we shouldn't treat democracy as a sacred cow and let that over-ride any other considerations.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 02:50
|
|
|
Mr.48 posted:My point still stands in that I dont really give a poo poo about which specific religion we're talking about, and oppose the intrusion of any religion into governance on general principle. Any specific anti-Muslim connotations are the product of your own imagination. Morsi didn't kill a thousand protesters, but the secular military regimes before and after him both did.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 02:52
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:Morsi didn't kill a thousand protesters, but the secular military regimes before and after him both did. I'm not saying that the current government of Egypt hasn't done bad things, but I consider that to be the lesser evil compared to the potential for yet another theocracy. And again, my intention isnt to single out Islam for criticism, I believe that any religion in government is poisonous to society.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 02:54
|
|
|
Mr.48 posted:I'm not saying that the current government of Egypt hasn't done bad things, but I consider that to be the lesser evil compared to the potential for yet another theocracy. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I don't think this stance can really be argued for very well. Looking back on the coup with everything we've learned about the military and the Egyptian people since then, I don't think there's any doubt that the best course of action would have been to suck up Morsi's term and then see what would have happened in the 2016 elections. Under him, liberals had to deal with laws against tattoos, attempts to undermine minority parties, and restrictions of free speech. Under the current regime, conservatives have had to deal with soldiers openly killing them to the cheers of the majority, and have resorted to sectarian violence to fight for representation, which is causing instability that Egypt can't really handle right now. I think the former was preferable.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 03:02
|
|
|
The freedom of tattooing is an ancient natural human right.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 03:06
|
|
|
Might Makes Right, guys & gals. That's all there is to it. The nice men in suits say it's not, but making nice is part of their pitch - it just a matter of degrees when it comes to how force is used. The loudest ideologues these days are religious nutters - but one day ideology and vision must dash away the balance sheet-blinders of the current management. When we really do need a change of direction, you might find you've negotiated away all those democratic niceties thinking secular politics is free of belief and passion; and then you'll learn that might is right and the management is happy the way things are.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 03:07
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I don't think this stance can really be argued for very well. Looking back on the coup with everything we've learned about the military and the Egyptian people since then, I don't think there's any doubt that the best course of action would have been to suck up Morsi's term and then see what would have happened in the 2016 elections. Under him, liberals had to deal with laws against tattoos, attempts to undermine minority parties, and restrictions of free speech. Under the current regime, conservatives have had to deal with soldiers openly killing them to the cheers of the majority, and have resorted to sectarian violence to fight for representation, which is causing instability that Egypt can't really handle right now. I think the former was preferable. The problem is that this argument is based on the assumption that Morsi's government would have been content with those restrictions and would not have turned into something far worse than the current government. My experience with religious politics and zealotry leaves me pretty cynical in that regard. "We enter parliament in order to supply ourselves, in the arsenal of democracy, with its own weapons" and all that jazz.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 03:24
|
|
|
Mr.48 posted:The problem is that this argument is based on the assumption that Morsi's government would have been content with those restrictions and would not have turned into something far worse than the current government. My experience with religious politics and zealotry leaves me pretty cynical in that regard. "We enter parliament in order to supply ourselves, in the arsenal of democracy, with its own weapons" and all that jazz. "I have no evidence, but I won't let that stop me from handwaving away military police gunning down Ikhwan members."
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 04:25
|
|
|
Mr.48 posted:The problem is that this argument is based on the assumption that Morsi's government would have been content with those restrictions and would not have turned into something far worse than the current government. My experience with religious politics and zealotry leaves me pretty cynical in that regard. "We enter parliament in order to supply ourselves, in the arsenal of democracy, with its own weapons" and all that jazz. Yeah, they might have closed all media with ties to the opposition, rounded up and imprisoned most of the opposition leadership and then killed hundreds of peaceful protestors in the streets, all while consolidating control over most of the countries economy to divert a good chunk of the GDP into their own pockets. Thank god we avoided that potential tragedy.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 04:56
|
|
|
illrepute posted:"I have no evidence, but I won't let that stop me from handwaving away military police gunning down Ikhwan members." I have no evidence that electing Rick Santorum for president would turn the US into a nightmarish hellhole either, but I'm pretty sure it would happen. E: Also, I'm not handwaving away anything. Firing on peaceful protesters is despicable, but that doesnt change my views on the principle of the matter (which is that religion in governance must not be allowed). If Eisenhower's soldiers had opened fire on peaceful whites protesting against school desegregation I would condemn the act of violence, but that wouldnt somehow convince me that desegregation was wrong. cafel posted:Yeah, they might have closed all media with ties to the opposition, rounded up and imprisoned most of the opposition leadership and then killed hundreds of peaceful protestors in the streets, all while consolidating control over most of the countries economy to divert a good chunk of the GDP into their own pockets. Thank god we avoided that potential tragedy. The thing is that prior experience with nationalist/religious populist movements indicates that thats exactly what they would do, with the additional bonus of suppression of the rights of women and minorities. Theres no shortage of examples, from Putin to Erdogan and many other old favorites that I wont bother to mention in the interests of keeping this discussion current. Mr.48 fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Oct 19, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 05:13
|
|
|
An expert on the Iranian Air Force published an article in Combat Aircraft Monthly alleging that Iranian F-14s have been chasing glowing, high-flying objects over Iran's nuclear facilities for the past nine years. Iranian sources allege that they can hit Mach 10, fly higher than known drones and can scramble electronics equipment.War is Boring posted:The Iranians believe the objects are spy drones belonging to the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, sent to sniff out Tehran’s suspected atomic weapons program. But they attribute to these alleged Unmanned Aerial Vehicles flight characteristics and capabilities far beyond what any known drone can achieve. And just last year one of the alleged flying robots apparently also shot down an F-14 attempting to intercept it. Or at least some Iranians seem to believe so.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 08:28
|
|
|
MothraAttack posted:An expert on the Iranian Air Force published an article in Combat Aircraft Monthly alleging that Iranian F-14s have been chasing glowing, high-flying objects over Iran's nuclear facilities for the past nine years. Iranian sources allege that they can hit Mach 10, fly higher than known drones and can scramble electronics equipment. They were chasing meteorites, aliens would have anal-probed the pilots, and I can't read anywhere that the pilots did anything illegal.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 09:40
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:They might be trying to lobby for reforms to limit Russia's influence in the area. Russia and Saudi Arabia have been having quite a power struggle in the region with the large scale withdrawal of the US, and Russia's ability to stonewall any international consensus on Syria plays a big role in that. The other point is that they maybe trying to highlight a flaw in the Security Council that's. The unwritten complaint about this is the veto power, since an UN-led intervention into Syria would have all but happened if Russia and China didn't have the potential to nix those plans. Also, the veto power would effect Israel as well, since the US vetos in favor of them. The Security Council veto had it's place during the Cold War in maintaining the balance of power, but in this multi-polar world, it's a relic. Chadderbox posted:So long as the 5 permanent Security Council members collectively account for more than 90% of the nuclear weapons on the planet (as well as overall military strength) I doubt it will become irrelevant any time soon, at least not League of Nations style. Then why are Russia and China permanent members? Russia's armed forces and nuclear arsenal is skeleton of it's Soviet-era strength and, while they've got a billion-man potential army, China's force projection is laughable that they couldn't take Vietnam, let alone Taiwan, and their nuclear threat is more regional than anything. And if we're including nuclear weapons, why isn't India or Pakistan have a permanent place on the UNSC? MothraAttack posted:An expert on the Iranian Air Force published an article in Combat Aircraft Monthly alleging that Iranian F-14s have been chasing glowing, high-flying objects over Iran's nuclear facilities for the past nine years. Iranian sources allege that they can hit Mach 10, fly higher than known drones and can scramble electronics equipment. Oh, wow, I'm wondering if this is the first foreign report of something like Aurora. Aurora has been a defense project rumored to have been in development since the '90s or so. It's believed to be a high-altitude, high-speed reconnaissance aircraft, akin to the SR-71. Lot's of unusual sonic booms, contrails and UFO sightings have surrounded it. I'd always thought it was a myth or, if it had been developed, ended quickly after the Cold War since it wouldn't have a mission or a technology demonstrator, but after the stealth Blackhawks in the OBL raid, I'm not sure about anything like that anymore. Young Freud fucked around with this message at 11:42 on Oct 19, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 11:34
|
|
|
Young Freud posted:The Security Council veto had it's place during the Cold War in maintaining the balance of power, but in this multi-polar world, it's a relic. The Security Council Veto is largely the only reason the UN didn't go the way of the League of Nations. Remove it, and pretty much all the major powers will either pull out or just straight up ignore it leaving the UN even more meaningless than it already is. Giving the world powers veto over the actions of the UN is pretty much the only workable system, because it's basically a formalization of what is already the status quo in international relations. Even without the Veto there still wouldn't have been a major international intervention in Syria as long as Russia seriously objected, because none of the other powers really care enough to risk a confrontation with the Russian Federation. The Security Council veto will be relevant as long as military power is widely imbalanced in the international system.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 11:41
|
|
|
Young Freud posted:
Because they were on the winning side of WWII, Pakistan and India didn't exist as independent countries yet, and even in Russia's currently degraded form it's still a respectable military power. Also I wouldn't be so sure about China's force projection being so crappy it can't beat any country that they share a land border with, because China's military modernization has made a lot of their neighbors quite nervous. Finally, who's going to take it away from them? No one. It can't be done because if it is, then very coincidentally that will be the day the UN ceases to matter to anyone.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 12:17
|
|
|
Young Freud posted:Oh, wow, I'm wondering if this is the first foreign report of something like Aurora. Aurora has been a defense project rumored to have been in development since the '90s or so. It's believed to be a high-altitude, high-speed reconnaissance aircraft, akin to the SR-71. Lot's of unusual sonic booms, contrails and UFO sightings have surrounded it. Obviously it is the Aurora/TR-3 Black Manta. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 15:13
|
|
|
Mr.48 posted:Maybe its just me but I find the idea of a religious tyranny of the majority even less appealing than a secular military dictatorship. Democracy isn't the absolute measure of civilization, its simply a good way of governing an already progressive, educated society. Have you ever lived in a dictatorship? if not, please shut the gently caress up. alot of people died just to try and get out of dictatorship, because this 'secular military dictatorship' has destroyed egypt politically, socially, and economically and now has killed off the only shot Egypt had and will have at a functioning democracy for a long time. when you live every day knowing that saying certain things can land you in a hole forever with a broomstick up your rear end in a top hat, or that protesting can get you shot by the army then open your goddamned mouth. You dont know what it's like to watch your country deteriorate and be shot and tortured for trying to fight for your basic human rights. Also, do I smell a hint of something? a progressive, educated society? what do you mean by that? how can you have progress when you're tortured and killed for it, and how do you have education when the educated and competent are banned from playing any role in government?! quote:The thing is that prior experience with nationalist/religious populist movements indicates that thats exactly what they would do, with the additional bonus of suppression of the rights of women and minorities. Theres no shortage of examples, from Putin to Erdogan and many other old favorites that I wont bother to mention in the interests of keeping this discussion current. 'would' isnt proof of 'will', so gently caress democracy and freedom of speech and due process and yay military dictatorship over some scenario that might or might not happen based on conjecture. here's a tip for you:- the military doesn't give a poo poo about minorities either, please google the maspero incident in which the military shot christian protestors. They will shoot, kill, torture anyone who opposes them in any way, all the while paying lip service to the minorities that they dont give a poo poo about in the first place. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Oct 19, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 15:17
|
|
|
cochise posted:Obviously it is the Aurora/TR-3 Black Manta. I was raised on Skunk Works apocrypha and other weird air stories. I want to believe. That said, either the reporter is taking things a bit too much at face value, or the U.S. is pulling all the stops in surveying Iranian territory. Neither's impossible, I guess.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 15:51
|
|
|
Mr.48 posted:My point still stands in that I dont really give a poo poo about which specific religion we're talking about, and oppose the intrusion of any religion into governance on general principle. Any specific anti-Muslim connotations are the product of your own imagination. How do you feel about the MB being gunned down in the streets and their supporters arrested and banned from further politics by this much more enlightened secular dictatorship?
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 15:59
|
|
|
Tatum Girlparts posted:How do you feel about the MB being gunned down in the streets and their supporters arrested and banned from further politics by this much more enlightened secular dictatorship? It's already been asked and answered. He's prejudiced towards religious people, and their ability to use their responsibility in government fairly. Moving right along.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 16:06
|
|
|
MothraAttack posted:I was raised on Skunk Works apocrypha and other weird air stories. I want to believe. Yeah, considering that the Iranians have already exposed one major secret project, the Sentinel UAV, it wouldn't surprise me that the US has stepped up with something that can't really be hacked, a manned high-altitude, high-speed reconnaissance flight. The mission of the "Aurora" was to fill gaps in spy satellite coverage: since satellites' orbits could be tracked, something more advanced intelligence targets could plan for and hide out against, the US needed something that could fly in at a moments' notice, observe them somewhat unaware, then get out as quickly as they could. Drones are the typical way, but with the improving cyberwarfare being used by the IRGC and the information gleaned from the "Beast of Kandahar", I'm guessing that they felt that needed to bring out the "Aurora" from the mothballs.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 17:20
|
|
|
Let's not be so quick to dismiss the possibility that maybe Iran is pulling all of these stories out of their rear end as well.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 18:03
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:Let's not be so quick to dismiss the possibility that maybe Iran is pulling all of these stories out of their rear end as well. Hey, maybe it really is a severe case of UFOs this time? Maybe aliens like trolling Iran for some reason.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 18:15
|
|
|
If extraterrestrials do exist in our solar system I'm interested by the stories that they actively observe and interfere with nuclear/ICBM tests. Governments won't acknowledge their existence because it turns human authority and military might into a joke. But this is all
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 19:27
|
|
|
If you were an alien, wouldn't you be interested in the military capability of other planets? Maybe the Lizardmen are actually E.T.'s and they've taken over the US, that's why drones have gotten more technologically advanced. Hold on, I need to go call Art Bell...
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 20:21
|
|
|
serewit posted:If you were an alien, wouldn't you be interested in the military capability of other planets? If alien life did visit us, and was of the sort of intelligence that could understand us and be understood in turn, I imagine one of its first reactions would be "Don't take us in too close, helmsman; those psychos are all armed to teeth and shoot anything that moves." If any larger galactic community exists, and we survive long enough to meet it, I suspect we'll be known as "the gun-toting monkeys from the water planet," if not by something even less polite.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 20:44
|
|
|
I think they'd call us Orks. In Syria news there's been some fighting near Damascus, 30+ dead and air raids when rebs blew up a checkpoint or 2.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 20:59
|
|
|
Al-Saqr posted:
Well poo poo, I wasn't aware that I had to have personally experienced any condition in order to have an opinion on it. I guess we can clear 95% of the posters out of D&D, since I doubt that very many of us have been personally involved in all the things we discuss here. Since you asked though, I have lived in a dictatorship for a few years in my infancy, but my parents got the full package. I also grew up in a country ruled to a significant degree by religion, which strongly shaped my views. I thankfully now live in a country that is both secular and democratic, but when faced with the choice of evils, I believe that a secular dictatorship is the lesser one. Also, can people please stop posting as if I endorse the Egyptian military shooting unarmed protesters? I'm getting a little tired of explaining over and over again that I'm against any violence towards peaceful protesters. Edit: Also, can someone translate the words on the bottom poster?  I'm curious about that is the perceived Turkish-Israeli connection is in regards to the Lebanese hostages. Taken from here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24589751 Mr.48 fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Oct 19, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 21:38
|
|
You weren't there man, you dont know!
|
Mr.48 posted:Well poo poo, I wasn't aware that I had to have personally experienced any condition in order to have an opinion on it. I guess we can clear 95% of the posters out of D&D, since I doubt that very many of us have been personally involved in all the things we discuss here. Considering that you've called the current situation "the lesser evil" compared to Morsi's relatively peaceful government, how could that be anything but an endorsement of the current government, violence and all? I get that you consider a hypothetical secular dictatorship to be better than a hypothetical religious democracy, but that's not what we're comparing. Do you feel like an actual secular dictatorship which is actually massacring unarmed civilians and ruling with military to be better than the actual religious democracy that didn't shoot any protesters? Religious law is pretty crappy, but it's absolutely the lesser evil when you compare it to slaughtering protesters in the streets. You literally compared a bloody military coup and the active extermination of political opponents to desegregation in the US. I'm not seeing how you're not at least passively endorsing the current government's conduct.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 21:51
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Considering that you've called the current situation "the lesser evil" compared to Morsi's relatively peaceful government, how could that be anything but an endorsement of the current government, violence and all? I get that you consider a hypothetical secular dictatorship to be better than a hypothetical religious democracy, but that's not what we're comparing. Do you feel like an actual secular dictatorship which is actually massacring unarmed civilians and ruling with military to be better than the actual religious democracy that didn't shoot any protesters? Religious law is pretty crappy, but it's absolutely the lesser evil when you compare it to slaughtering protesters in the streets. You literally compared a bloody military coup and the active extermination of political opponents to desegregation in the US. I'm not seeing how you're not at least passively endorsing the current government's conduct. Mr.48 posted:Also, can people please stop posting as if I endorse the Egyptian military shooting unarmed protesters? I'm getting a little tired of explaining over and over again that I'm against any violence towards peaceful protesters.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2013 23:37
|
|
|
The problem with the Egyptian Election was that it became just another chapter in the Struggle between the Muslim Brotherhood and the Army. Now some people can prop up Morsi and his cabinet* as Ideological Demons; like the rarely discussed 2006 Palestinian Elections; which just continued to be written in the blood of the Israeli/Palestinian struggle. Completely Rational & Democratically Elected Benjamin Netanyahu will tell you the election of Hamas proves negotiations are futile. Michele Bachmann and Louie Gohmert; reporting WND stories about the Muslim Brotherhood and giving condescending lectures to Egyptians; will tell you they are just as rational and virtuous. *Note Morsi's cabinet was a mess - didn't they get leaked talking about getting into the CIA game and making trouble in Sudan over a Nile Dam? Mc Do Well fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Oct 20, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2013 00:08
|
|
|
edit: forget it.
fspades fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Oct 20, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2013 00:10
|
|
|
McDowell posted:The problem with the Egyptian Election was that it became just another chapter in the Struggle between the Muslim Brotherhood and the Army. Ethiopia decided to construct a power generating dam on their section of the Nile and Morsi threatened them saying Egypt would not tolerate any disruption to the amount of water Egypt gets from it, and then one of his ministers was caught talking on a hot mic about sending special forces in to sabotage it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2013 00:26
|
|
|
McDowell posted:The problem with the Egyptian Election was that it became just another chapter in the Struggle between the Muslim Brotherhood and the Army. No, Ethiopia has been loving with the Nile for years and Morsi, unlike Mubarak, wasn't going to just ignore it so he said 'well this is some poo poo, stop that' and some random cabinet nobody said he'd like to send some special forces in to blow it up and just end the argument that way. You can find far worse harmless ramblings from any military power in existence. Morsi's cabinet was a mess because he had multiple people like judges and police forces and all overtly saying they don't respect his election and will oppose him because Mubarak paid better.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2013 00:47
|
|
|
I think you're a real son of a bitch. What the hell is even the point of secular government if you've discarded democracy, it certainly won't be a pluralistic representative government, what matter if you replace zealous religious worship with a cult of personality, or religious oppression with a rigid secularism, that's no less violent and aggressive? What freedom have you achieved, what liberties, what safety? Squalid fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Oct 20, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2013 08:22
|
|
|
Squalid posted:I think you're a real son of a bitch. Name-calling on the Internet is idiotic. Calling Morsi's government a "democracy" is pretty laughable. Painting this as some kind of "good versus evil" dichotomy indicates you've been watching too much Lord of the Rings.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2013 08:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 05:28 |
|
|
Go to hell. I didn't do any of those things you listed, besides the name calling. Mr. 48 subscribes to a completely hypocritical political philosophy in which his own side is permitted to commit any crime necessary to prevent its enemies from doing the same to them. Its the kind of madness that destroys nations and people and is one way road to ruin. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2013 08:53
|
|