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Admirable Gusto posted:So I go to a boxing gym 3x a week; it's anything from sparring to anaerobic circuit stuff to bag / pad work. My trainer thinks it's not necessary to lift weights and that I should restrict myself to cardio on off days. Lifting isn't necessary to be a good boxer, but it's a good idea for injury prevention and overall health.
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Nov 10, 2013 14:40
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Anyone does heavy rope training? If so, what do you do? My gym has heavy ropes (well, they are elastic ropes, but are pretty much the same) and my dojo has regular heavy ropes so I get to play with those nowadays and would like some ideas to mix it up.
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Nov 10, 2013 17:17
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Raenir Salazar posted:As I said, its research for a project, anything else was an afterthought. Also I don't think its wise to do running/track with my weight as it is. Punching people in the face? Tons of fun Getting punched in the face? Not so much
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Nov 10, 2013 20:57
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Try boxing find a good gym and drill the poo poo out of your footwork and defensive techniques. Boxing is probably the most evasively minded martial art. Look up some boxing defense YouTube videos and you'll see what I mean. It's really cool.
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Nov 10, 2013 21:24
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Raenir Salazar posted:My second question is primarily research for a project I'm on. Is there a single or combination of martial arts that could be best described as involving being evasive (dodging, moving around), with a focus on counters and blocks for either kicks and strikes/punches? As opposed to initiating strikes and kicks? There are martial arts that claim to do this kind of thing (aikido springs to mind) but they don't work against an opponent who knows how to fight. A skilled striker will be hitting you so fast and so hard and with so little warning that elaborate manoevres won't work. The typical "grab an arm and then redirect his force" thing that you see in movies or whatever takes about five times as long to perform as a serious punch, and good luck trying to grab that arm at the speed it's moving. It'll have hit your head and returned to a guard position in a quarter of a second while it'll take you a second or more to grab that arm, if you know what i mean. The only martial arts where you see really impressive evasion are the same martial arts that teach the strikes. You need to know the strikes and be good at them to avoid the same thing. Watch this video from 1:40, it's boxing basics in action. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSX0PCQXiO4
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Nov 10, 2013 21:41
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:There are martial arts that claim to do this kind of thing (aikido springs to mind) but they don't work against an opponent who knows how to fight. A skilled striker will be hitting you so fast and so hard and with so little warning that elaborate manoevres won't work. The typical "grab an arm and then redirect his force" thing that you see in movies or whatever takes about five times as long to perform as a serious punch, and good luck trying to grab that arm at the speed it's moving. It'll have hit your head and returned to a guard position in a quarter of a second while it'll take you a second or more to grab that arm, if you know what i mean. The only martial arts where you see really impressive evasion are the same martial arts that teach the strikes. You need to know the strikes and be good at them to avoid the same thing. Best pat of that video: float like a cloud of smog, sting like gonorrhea
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Nov 10, 2013 21:53
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Raenir Salazar posted:Is there a single or combination of martial arts that could be best described as involving being evasive (dodging, moving around), with a focus on counters and blocks for either kicks and strikes/punches? As opposed to initiating strikes and kicks? You could take a look into Wing Chun as opposed to Western Boxing. It's truly a focus on blocking (pak sau, chi sau) and training reaction speed against very fast hand (and ocassionally feet) movement. My impression is that there's very little dodging and there's hardly drive to be externally fit -- a friend who did Wing Chun in Singapore said that all the practitioners were overweight Chinese men who prided themselves on internal chi strength. Do check out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnHlLiYmVXA
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Nov 11, 2013 10:58
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Unfortunately there's no drive in wing chun to know how to fight, either. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDLRX1P0bEg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc0Gt_M16lM (starts at 3 minutes) If it's a purely fictional thing for a video game studies project though, both aikido and wing chun are appropriate for your project because the mythology associated with the arts is similar to what you described.
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Nov 11, 2013 13:00
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:There are martial arts that claim to do this kind of thing (aikido springs to mind) but they don't work against an opponent who knows how to fight. A skilled striker will be hitting you so fast and so hard and with so little warning that elaborate manoevres won't work. The typical "grab an arm and then redirect his force" thing that you see in movies or whatever takes about five times as long to perform as a serious punch, and good luck trying to grab that arm at the speed it's moving. It'll have hit your head and returned to a guard position in a quarter of a second while it'll take you a second or more to grab that arm, if you know what i mean. The only martial arts where you see really impressive evasion are the same martial arts that teach the strikes. You need to know the strikes and be good at them to avoid the same thing. i love this
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Nov 11, 2013 13:41
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Unfortunately there's no drive in wing chun to know how to fight, either. Those..aren't really critiques of Wing Chun except maybe in the sense that it's an incomplete system (no ground fighting). It would be like if you put a western boxer in an MMA match, watched him get choked out with BJJ techniques or something similar and then went "See? Boxing doesn't teach you how to fight." That's not to say that Wing Chun is the most perfect, undefeatable system ever conceived in the history of ever. Just that if there are problems, those videos don't show them. As often as I've seen the mantra of "Stylist over style" get repeated in this thread, it's funny how quickly that gets tossed aside.
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Nov 11, 2013 15:16
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Buried alive posted:Those..aren't really critiques of Wing Chun except maybe in the sense that it's an incomplete system (no ground fighting). It would be like if you put a western boxer in an MMA match, watched him get choked out with BJJ techniques or something similar and then went "See? Boxing doesn't teach you how to fight." Wing Chun is stupid dogshit because if they sparred and applied what works in sparring it would just turn into kickboxing, not because it lacks groundwork.
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Nov 11, 2013 15:26
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Buried alive posted:As often as I've seen the mantra of "Stylist over style" get repeated in this thread, it's funny how quickly that gets tossed aside. Goons talking about fighting ITT. Kung-fu schools tend to be very mixed. I don't know a lot about it but there is no such thing as standardized 'kung-fu' AFAIK, outside of wushu stuff which is mostly performance based. Raenir, If you're looking to lose weight, I suggest trying out a few different schools within whatever discipline you are interested in learning. Different schools will tend to have different intensities and such. Some schools/gyms are focused on being a recreational place for people to cut loose a little and have some fun. Others are more intent on training people, and will have tougher workouts. Figure out what you are looking for and what you are looking to get out of training. Also, strategies and mechanics in combat sports tend to be defined by the rules of the sport, FWIW.
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Nov 11, 2013 15:27
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Wing Chun is stupid dogshit because if they sparred and applied what works in sparring it would just turn into kickboxing, not because it lacks groundwork. Good Wing Chun is more like no gi judo with punching. Bad Wing Chun is bad kickboxing. The differences are in the footwork and stance, sitting lower on average, and actually generating the power and leverage to disrupt the opponent's base ("uproot them" in kung fu terms) as you strike. To the guy looking for a school, kung fu ranges from pacifist acrobatics to sitting around talking about chi to lame kickboxing to a mix of material that's effectively modern mma to more esoteric stuff and it all runs the full spectrum from sedentary to extremely challenging, nonsense to practical. It could be worth looking in to depending on what's around your area, but if in doubt, then yeah, I'd agree muay thai or judo/bjj.
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Nov 11, 2013 16:25
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I know there was this one dude back in web programming who had been taking martial arts for a few years, since its probably better to go with people I know I'll touch base with him first. For the project aikido/wingchun/boxing seem perfect. What's the primary difference between judo and BJJ?
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Nov 11, 2013 16:48
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Raenir Salazar posted:What's the primary difference between judo and BJJ? Primarily emphasis on the throw (Judo) versus the groundwork that happens after (bjj). Probably best combined.
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Nov 11, 2013 16:54
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Watch this video from 1:40, it's boxing basics in action. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSX0PCQXiO4 After we discussed this video the last time, I've sort of incorporated the idea to some of the beginnerish classes I've subbed for recently by having some rangy guy who can both throw a little and actually tries to hit (instead of being intent on missing on purpose) freely punch me in the face while I just slip with my mouthpiece on. What I want is to drive home that as long as you keep your head moving and a hand or two up, you're fine against someone on your level. Then I'll let them try it out either by holding the glove by the wrist and shoving with it, to actually punching if they have the proper gear. I hope I don't come out as someone trying to "show off" but I don't think I do, I explain that the point isn't that you need to be "fast" or that "I'm fast", as I'm not, but that punching someone in the head when he keeps changing the position of his face using the basic side- and u-slips in boxing is really difficult for the average person. At least this seems to work better and faster in encouraging people to slip and hit than how it's usually been done 'round here. For the casual beginner or hobbyist the traditional problem is 1) they are too afraid they'll get hit to actually react with a slip and instead freeze or cover up 2) too afraid to punch their partner because they're afraid they'll hurt him so the drill fails. A short demonstration gets their attention and seems to encourage hobbyists to have fun with it, having fun being a surprisingly good way for even adults to try stuff (and I'm not in the best shape or look like the meanest, fastest middle-weight right now so it's easy to believe I'm not fast or possess other superior abilities).
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Nov 11, 2013 16:55
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Raenir Salazar posted:What's the primary difference between judo and BJJ? The rules they compete by.
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Nov 11, 2013 16:57
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Ligur posted:After we discussed this video the last time, I've sort of incorporated the idea to some of the beginnerish classes Slipping punches makes you feel like you're in the matrix and prob gets them really excited about class, which is the hardest part for new people. It is very unrewarding to be bad and get your rear end kicked for months on end until you get to a minimum competence level.
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Nov 11, 2013 17:49
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Xguard86 posted:Slipping punches makes you feel like you're in the matrix and prob gets them really excited about class, which is the hardest part for new people. It is very unrewarding to be bad and get your rear end kicked for months on end until you get to a minimum competence level. "Welcome to the boxing gym. Please enjoy having your ribcage turned into gravel by teenagers a third your size while punchdrunk bricklayers insult your manhood" is truly the hardest sales pitch in sports
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Nov 11, 2013 18:29
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Julio Cesar Fatass posted:"Welcome to the boxing gym. Please enjoy having your ribcage turned into gravel by teenagers a third your size while punchdrunk bricklayers insult your manhood" is truly the hardest sales pitch in sports also, in my area, se habla espanol? no? *hand motions to describe all training activities*
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Nov 11, 2013 20:00
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Xguard86 posted:also, in my area, se habla espanol? no? *hand motions to describe all training activities* When I was in LA I tolerated that for a year. It stopped working because there's no way to learn the subtler points and then you get frustrated. e: But I did learn how to count from 1 to 10 so there's that 
got off on a technicality fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Nov 11, 2013 |
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Nov 11, 2013 20:11
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Xguard86 posted:Slipping punches makes you feel like you're in the matrix and prob gets them really excited about class, which is the hardest part for new people. It is very unrewarding to be bad and get your rear end kicked for months on end until you get to a minimum competence level. I was taught to slip by doing very regimented drills. For example slipping left straights by slipping to my right only, and otherwise around. Also the role of the puncher was never really explained enough. That poo poo is hard, especially when the punches come randomly from both sides with different speeds, different ranges and sometimes even leading your slip. That isn't even "realistic" when you are not allowed to punch back, since the puncher will start taking freedoms that would not happen otherwise. I've found out that it's much easier to shortly explain why slipping to direction X is safer, yet giving peeps free reign to the tune of "as long as you don't get hit, you're doing good" (with the added bonus that if you can stay in a position to counter you are doing really good). The role of the puncher/shover-of-face is equally important. They must slow down to compensate for slower partners, and remain in the proper range. Almost nobody can slip straights if you jump into their face, not fearing a counter, and just machinegun them at your nose, and at the worst case scenario lead the slips as well (which often happens in very strict drills when you are only "allowed" to slip to a certain direction, newbies start taking advantage of that and punch where you're going instead of where you are right now - which ruins the drill if you only have one place to slip, which isn't how it's gonna be when boxing). Would I train fighters like that? Naaah probably not, but for the average hobbyist the above seems to be the best way to get them all pumped up about them fun slips and then enter the matrix. edit: In other news WHAT THE gently caress IS GOING ON HERE then. This some kind of show thing they do with 20% actual force? And I've told everyone you can't "harden" your face by getting it kicked at repeatedly 
Ligur fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Nov 12, 2013 |
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Nov 11, 2013 22:29
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Also, shame at least some of the strikers who used to post here are gone these days but how ya'll feel about drilling absurdly long combinations? A former fighter/trainer I hold in high regard (BF/Boxing/BJJ/KB) once told me that if you ever drill 2-3 strike combinations, say jab cross hook, then, when sparring heavy enough to be weary, much less a fighting, you'll only be able to throw one punch at a time when poo poo gets real. If you drill 6 strikes combos, you can maybe chain 3 when it's really on and you want to win. If you drill 8 strike combos, you might be able to throw 4 on a good day, and so. I was like "ok, hmmm" but after a few bouts (with safe, semi-contact rules, but never the less) I was like "oooh I get it". Thus I have become a freak: most people I know, even those much more talented than me athletically speaking usually dig hitting the mitts or such with short, simple, left right left combos, and that's it. But I love trying to chain 10+ techniques on a single combination. Say jab jab cross hook low kick slip uppercut hook cross, stuff like that. It's almost as matrix as just slipping a million punches, except you get to strike yourself. The difficulty is trying to find someone who can hold the mitts and pads for 300 strike combos but still, it's awesome fun and learns you to react to poo poo on the fly after almost any slip or strike IMO.
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Nov 12, 2013 18:42
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I like to drill the long combos too for just that reason, when the heat is on people are usually way more tentative when they're on the attack so they don't end up the victim of an embarrassing counter KO. Drilling long combos gets you more comfortable with the idea so that when you have someone against the ropes and covering up you can take them apart with precision rather than spaz out and get tired/leave yourself open or rather than (like I see a lot of people do) just sort of back off and let their opponent recover. Also throwing long combos in practice is what finally triggered my brain to always bring your hand back on defense after you're done throwing a punch.
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Nov 13, 2013 22:43
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I've noticed that happening in our capoeira rodas - we're learnt the Bimba sequences and do most of the shorter drills, but in the ring I'm lucky if I can get through half a sequence or drill pattern before we get a little overwhelmed/out of sync and go back to ginga. Our instructor is keen on getting our drills up to 6+ moves to help work on our 'flow'.
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Nov 14, 2013 06:17
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Novum posted:I like to drill the long combos too for just that reason, when the heat is on people are usually way more tentative when they're on the attack so they don't end up the victim of an embarrassing counter KO. Drilling long combos gets you more comfortable with the idea so that when you have someone against the ropes and covering up you can take them apart with precision rather than spaz out and get tired/leave yourself open or rather than (like I see a lot of people do) just sort of back off and let their opponent recover. Our coach used to do what he called slaps. Empty hand sparring and if you didn't bring your hand back you got bitch slapped, not hard but enough to remind you.
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Nov 14, 2013 06:40
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Does anyone from Toronto have any recommendations for a BJJ gym that's not super-shady? The big one, Toronto BJJ, has a fair amount of negative stuff out about it and I'm not too familiar with the other schools. Also, is Xtreme Couture good for any martial art? I go there primarily for fitness, but if they have some good MMA programs that would be cool since it's so close to where I live. Also, location isn't an issue since I have a car, so if there's better schools outside Toronto I'm all ears. Ideally something west of Toronto if not in Toronto itself.
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Nov 14, 2013 10:44
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MagicCube posted:Does anyone from Toronto have any recommendations for a BJJ gym that's not super-shady? The big one, Toronto BJJ, has a fair amount of negative stuff out about it and I'm not too familiar with the other schools. Also, is Xtreme Couture good for any martial art? I go there primarily for fitness, but if they have some good MMA programs that would be cool since it's so close to where I live. This place looks alright: http://www.centralmma.ca/
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Nov 14, 2013 15:13
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BlindSite posted:Our coach used to do what he called slaps. Empty hand sparring and if you didn't bring your hand back you got bitch slapped, not hard but enough to remind you. This. This works brilliantly! After 6 months in my Muay Thai training, I still have a bad habit of not fully bringing my hand back to my face after a punch. Or even sillier, bringing my hand back to about my neck area, THEN bringing it back up to my face. I've taken to trying to find the few training partners in the entry level classes that will smack you upside the head with a Thai pad or focus mitt if you drop your hand(s) or don't get them back fast enough. Another reason to find a partner that's willing to swipe back at you: you get to practice slips, weaves and parries.  Also, slips and weaves are HARD! I can weave okay, but while I'm weaving, I'm having trouble seeing what my partner is going to throw next. Sometimes, I've finished a successful weave only to stand and get clocked on the way up! For slips, I just can't seem to get the timing down to perfectly slip out of the way. At least with slips, I'm able to get it so I take the punch on my shoulder instead of the face. Is the slip something that just comes with time? I've tried to time slips by reading my partner's torso, but so far, I can only really read when a hay maker style punch is coming my way. Anything else is hard to read, so I end up either covering up or ducking like a pansy. All I'm able to gather is that something is coming my way. This is doubly hard with an awesome partner that will mix in feints or set up leg kicks with jabs or feints.
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Nov 14, 2013 15:46
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Dolemite posted:Or even sillier, bringing my hand back to about my neck area, THEN bringing it back up to my face. I do this, my coach calls it "check-marking". Its one of those things that I'd swear I'm not doing until someone points it out and then it seems obvious.
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Nov 14, 2013 17:32
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Dolemite posted:Also, slips and weaves are HARD! I can weave okay, but while I'm weaving, I'm having trouble seeing what my partner is going to throw next. Sometimes, I've finished a successful weave only to stand and get clocked on the way up! For slips, I just can't seem to get the timing down to perfectly slip out of the way. At least with slips, I'm able to get it so I take the punch on my shoulder instead of the face. Is the slip something that just comes with time? I've tried to time slips by reading my partner's torso, but so far, I can only really read when a hay maker style punch is coming my way. Don't worry bro. Quoting myself: quote:There's just a certain logic to head movement vs strikes to the head, which mostly involves keeping your head moving much of the time and anticipating the very common left-right-left-right combinations. What I mean is that you don't need to be magically fast to do that, and most of us can learn how, even without having superman speed genetics, if they invest the time, so he is marketing it correctly [talking about that "Trav" guy here]. Slips and weaves ya'll, I took me a few years of hobbyist practice a few times a week, and then a few more years of thinking about it while being a very dedicated hobbyist who trained a lot every week and also took exhib/amateur-rule fights on and off to figure out this "logic" I mention. At first I only sparred few rounds, a few times a week. That won't cut it. Everyone's different, and someone else will pick it up faster but trust me, you'll get it if you invest the time. And it's not about "seeing" the punches. It's doing that sparring stuff long enough, becoming experienced in your style, so as to figure out what strikes are usually coming in this or that situation, and what the next strike will probably be thus anticipating them and hopefully being better in this than your opponent in anticipating you. The other thing is, you must feel an urgent need to strike back. At this point, it will start to click, because you will figure out cowering in terror will not let you do this, but risking a slip and succeeding will immediately give you a free counter to punish your enemy. Ha! Put the time. Slip and weave, and respect the fact you'll get tagged when you do it, but along with your understanding of how striking exchanges work you will also find out how slipping works. If you want to learn it slowly, don't trust your slips and just cover up and retreat, perhaps never eating a punch but oh boy you won't counter much either. If you want to learn it faster, do some training where you only slip and weave when some friend from the gym only hits you in the forehead non-stop with a plethora of strikes, or just try to do it every chance you get like dodging guys carrying ladders on the street or whatever, all the while laughing at your mistakes. It'll play off in the end.
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Nov 14, 2013 22:36
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MagicCube posted:Does anyone from Toronto have any recommendations for a BJJ gym that's not super-shady? The big one, Toronto BJJ, has a fair amount of negative stuff out about it and I'm not too familiar with the other schools. Also, is Xtreme Couture good for any martial art? I go there primarily for fitness, but if they have some good MMA programs that would be cool since it's so close to where I live. You can also check out tournament results to get an idea of good non-shady schools. From that list I've heard good things about Nova Uniao in Mississauga, Ascension (Salvosa BJJ) in Scarborough, and Open Mat downtown. Actually, from time to time a bunch of Open Mat people will visit to cross train judo with us and they have some solid groundwork. Bangkero fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Nov 14, 2013 |
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Nov 14, 2013 23:48
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After trying BJJ for a couple of lesson 3 years ago (and having to stop because of back issues), I really want to give it another shot. So my goal is to start BJJ training again in about half a year. I want to use the next couple of months to get more in shape and to strengthen my back some more before training. The first thing I'd like some input on: would it be weird/awkward/not done if I don't do some of the drills because they put a lot of pure pressure on my back? My physiotherapist says that it should not harm my back to train, but that I should start easy with my back. The second thing to ask is: apart from losing weight and getting more conditioning going, are there some drills/exercises/stuff I can do in the following 5/6 months to prepare for BJJ training? Flexibility stuff or otherwise? Is it smart to read more about the techniques (just watched UFC a lot to know some BJJ stuff from the outside), or should I wait until training because I might pick up wrong techniques from books?
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Nov 15, 2013 00:23
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DjLando posted:After trying BJJ for a couple of lesson 3 years ago (and having to stop because of back issues), I really want to give it another shot. It depends on the gym. But any gym that will get mad at you for not doing certain drills because you have a bad back (as long as you arent using it as an excuse to not pay attention and work hard) probably isnt worth your time Anything you do for strength, flexibility etc will be fine but nothing will help as much as actually doing BJJ. you could look up ginastica natural which lots of people swear by
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Nov 15, 2013 00:54
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manyak posted:It depends on the gym. But any gym that will get mad at you for not doing certain drills because you have a bad back (as long as you arent using it as an excuse to not pay attention and work hard) probably isnt worth your time Going to watch some ginastica natural stuff now; thanks for the advice manyak
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Nov 15, 2013 01:56
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Dolemite posted:This. Among the biggest mistakes people make when learning how to slip and wave is not keeping their eyes on their opponent and making too big of a motion. It should be just enough for you to avoid danger and not so it compromises that quick twitch change of direction or worse, your balance. I find practicing in a mirror when shadow boxing trying to focus on keeping my eyes on my chin helps. I also find that what keeps my accuracy good when using a lot of slips and movement good is to be looking at my opponents chin, but not focused, almost how you look at those stupid 3d hidden image pictures. You should be able to see the whole while focused on the target. I've found anyway that when I'm in a faster sparring exchange I can hit my target more accurately than if I'm concentrating on their hands or slipping. Slipping and weaving is as much about feel and instinct imo as it is technical knowledge and it takes years to become really good at it but it's an invaluable tool to have. Anderson Silva uses a drill where someone throws a squash ball at his head while he's standing next to a brick wall which is a lot harder than it looks. I've tried the drill and really liked it.
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Nov 15, 2013 05:25
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Ligur posted:Also, shame at least some of the strikers who used to post here are gone these days but how ya'll feel about drilling absurdly long combinations? A former fighter/trainer I hold in high regard (BF/Boxing/BJJ/KB) once told me that if you ever drill 2-3 strike combinations, say jab cross hook, then, when sparring heavy enough to be weary, much less a fighting, you'll only be able to throw one punch at a time when poo poo gets real. I do too. When I trained at VOS in the Netherlands, that's what we did. We started on a combination like 3 moves long and at the end of the session they were 6-8 punch combinations, and truly it works; I haven't been doing long combinations lately and now when I spar I don't throw enough hands, really shallow short combinations slippingchat: quote:
this. In addition, try and set them up so that they throw the punch you want them to slip. In much the same way that if I kick you there's an 80% chance that you'll kick me right back. 80% of the time it works all the time. Like, in boxing if I throw a series of jabs, I'm expecting a right cross back. And since i'm on the lookout for it, I am prepared to duck it.
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Nov 16, 2013 03:15
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Syphilis Fish posted:In addition, try and set them up so that they throw the punch you want them to slip. In much the same way that if I kick you there's an 80% chance that you'll kick me right back. 80% of the time it works all the time. I'm really annoyed nobody ever told me a (low) leg kick from the power leg is usually followed by a counter leg kick much earlier. It's like more experienced people keep secrets, what the gently caress?! I sparred against a Savate-kick guy for the first time in AGES last week and he just wiped me out in the kicking game, but when I stepped into a kick and launched a hand combination he was so tagged (quote: "Oh poo poo... you were the guy who knows how to box").
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Nov 19, 2013 20:01
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I frequently see/read/hear that generally that "X Martial Art is to help defend yourself against someone bigger and stronger"; what happens if you ARE the bigger and stronger person, what do you learn?
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Nov 19, 2013 21:26
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Raenir Salazar posted:I frequently see/read/hear that generally that "X Martial Art is to help defend yourself against someone bigger and stronger"; what happens if you ARE the bigger and stronger person, what do you learn? There aren't many martial arts that won't allow you leverage a size and strength advantage, aside from dumb poo poo like aikido or very specific sport things like fencing (and even then, things like height can be an advantage).
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Nov 19, 2013 21:35
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