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computer parts posted:Oh so you physically mean a large number of enemies, not a large variety. In that case, how is (e.g.) Bad Wolf, The End of Time, Army of Ghosts/Doomsday, Sound of Drums/Last of the Timelords, etc any different? I'm talking about Moffat's problems with this trope. Some people can pull it off, some can't. ETA: Some shows/writers I thought of that can pull this trope off: Babylon 5 (JMS), Deep Space Nine (Ron Moore). Maera Sior fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Nov 26, 2013 |
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Nov 26, 2013 18:31
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Maera Sior posted:I'm talking about Moffat's problems with this trope. Some people can pull it off, some can't. I'm struggling to see how "Angels take Manhattan" is any more serious due to their large volume any more than Bad Wolf and the Dalek Emperor were.
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Nov 26, 2013 18:45
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thepokey posted:Although I think I really would have preferred dealing with the end of a regeneration cycle to be something that ran for a whole season, something that dogged and haunted the doctor as opposed to something pretty much introduced and pretty much wrapped up in one episode. That's been the focus of the last two seasons of Smith's run. Retroactively, we now know that Smith's Doctor has known that he is at the end of his entire life - not just the end of his regeneration with a new one waiting for him. Running from Lake Silencio in S6 and Trenzalore in S7 have a different twist if it's not just Smith hiding from the end of "his" run as the Doctor, but his entire life, if he knows that showing up at either event is the absolute end of everything for him. 2/3rds of Smith's run is about the inevitability of his demise.
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Nov 26, 2013 18:47
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Mortanis posted:That's been the focus of the last two seasons of Smith's run. Retroactively, we now know that Smith's Doctor has known that he is at the end of his entire life - not just the end of his regeneration with a new one waiting for him. Running from Lake Silencio in S6 and Trenzalore in S7 have a different twist if it's not just Smith hiding from the end of "his" run as the Doctor, but his entire life, if he knows that showing up at either event is the absolute end of everything for him. 2/3rds of Smith's run is about the inevitability of his demise. Yeah I do get that, retroactively, but it sort of feels a little robbed of the story being lived out though. I know you can go back and watch those episodes in a slightly different light, but it's not quite the same as it being played out as a long standing plot point.
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Nov 26, 2013 19:03
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Question. If this is, and has always been, the Doctor's last Regeneration, why would he fake regenerate with the robot body when River shoots him? Why would they go out of their way to say her poison will stop his regeneration when she kissed him? Why would he tell the Cyber Planner to leave or else he'd Regenerate and wipe him out? The last one is the most important one I think because it comes straight from the man himself. You can't say it was a bluff or anything because the Cyber Planner would have called him out on it.
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Nov 26, 2013 19:04
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thepokey posted:Although I think I really would have preferred dealing with the end of a regeneration cycle to be something that ran for a whole season, something that dogged and haunted the doctor as opposed to something pretty much introduced and pretty much wrapped up in one episode. Personally, I'd rather avoid another season-long arc from Moffat. He seems incapable of wrapping anything like that up in a timely or satisfying manner. Look at "Silence will fall"/Exploding TARDIS. That was touted as the big mystery that Season 6 would address, and here we are in the Season 7->8 Christmas Special and maybe, just maybe, we'll finally get an answer to that.
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Nov 26, 2013 19:07
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Burkion posted:Question. If this is, and has always been, the Doctor's last Regeneration, why would he fake regenerate with the robot body when River shoots him? I think this one at least is passable because, if he is the robot, why would he fake regenerate anyway? He obviously wants to hide the fact that this is his last life in addition to hiding the fact that that wasn't him. I don't have a good explanation for the Cyber Planner, although I thought he was able to hide some things from him?
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Nov 26, 2013 19:12
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Guy A. Person posted:I think this one at least is passable because, if he is the robot, why would he fake regenerate anyway? He obviously wants to hide the fact that this is his last life in addition to hiding the fact that that wasn't him. He managed to hide Hurt's War Doctor. Still, it does seem suspect. Probably won't get an answer.
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Nov 26, 2013 19:20
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Guy A. Person posted:I don't have a good explanation for the Cyber Planner, although I thought he was able to hide some things from him? He hid John Hurt from him, didn't he?
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Nov 26, 2013 19:20
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Hasn't Matt Smith almost-regenerated a few times? And I think he's thought that he was regenerating. And when people try to kill him, they go out of their way to make sure to do it in a way that can keep him from regenerating. It'd be a bit odd if they suddenly revealed this was his last lifetime, but from interviews with Moffat, it does look like that's the way they're going. Oh well.
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Nov 26, 2013 19:26
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Burkion posted:Question. If this is, and has always been, the Doctor's last Regeneration, why would he fake regenerate with the robot body when River shoots him? Why would they go out of their way to say her poison will stop his regeneration when she kissed him? Why would he tell the Cyber Planner to leave or else he'd Regenerate and wipe him out? If he did not start to regenerate then River and the Silent would know that something is up. They had to make it seem that he is dead. They also might not have been aware of the limits that are on him.
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Nov 26, 2013 19:31
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Here's my (crackpot) theory: The Silence are actually an evil version of the Time Lords leaking into our universe from wherever the gently caress they sent Gallifrey, maybe into the Anti-Universe where Omega is chilling.  I also have nothing to back this up.
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Nov 26, 2013 19:34
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I realized something in the car this morning... that Cyberman head in the Black Archive might've been Handles. 
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Nov 26, 2013 19:54
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Varance posted:I realized something in the car this morning... that Cyberman head in the Black Archive might've been Handles. If it was an old one then it was most likely one from The Invasion that the Brig took to use as target practice.
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Nov 26, 2013 19:57
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Bicyclops posted:Hasn't Matt Smith almost-regenerated a few times? And I think he's thought that he was regenerating. And when people try to kill him, they go out of their way to make sure to do it in a way that can keep him from regenerating. Well, I think there were only the few incidents which Burkion mentioned: he did start to regenerate at Lake Silencio but that wasn't even him it was a robot so it was faked no matter what; he mentioned the possibility of regenerating to the Cyber Planner but didn't; a few times it was mentioned that he was going to be killed by something he couldn't regenerate from (River's kiss, the Time Lord disease on that planet in "The Girl Who Waited"). I frankly don't think it changes much, and actually puts an interesting spin on these other incidences. Like, of course the Doctor would lie and be like "oh sure yep that poison is regeneration proof for some reason" instead of revealing that he was on his last life and make it easier for his enemies to kill him. Like we could've had a season where we knew it was the Doctor's last life and have that hanging over his head and did a bunch of stories about how this time he really can't regenerate you guys seriously! It feels like we now had those stories but without the constant wink wink nudge nudge and we can wrap up the whole "the Doctor only has twelve regenerations" thing neatly and quickly without it becoming an ongoing "thing". Honest question: for those of you who aren't Moffat fans, would you rather the "12 regenerations" thing become an ongoing thread during Capaldi's run (which will at least be overseen by Moffat at the start) or would you rather it get resolved in a single episode?
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Nov 26, 2013 20:00
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bobkatt013 posted:If it was an old one then it was most likely one from The Invasion that the Brig took to use as target practice.
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Nov 26, 2013 20:01
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Guy A. Person posted:Honest question: for those of you who aren't Moffat fans, would you rather the "12 regenerations" thing become an ongoing thread during Capaldi's run (which will at least be overseen by Moffat at the start) or would you rather it get resolved in a single episode? Even as someone who's been okay with a lot of Moffat's work, I think he works better when he's more restrained. His work under RTD is some of my favorite stuff from the revived series; its when he's given free rein to indulge himself that things get out of hand.
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Nov 26, 2013 20:25
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Guy A. Person posted:Honest question: for those of you who aren't Moffat fans, would you rather the "12 regenerations" thing become an ongoing thread during Capaldi's run (which will at least be overseen by Moffat at the start) or would you rather it get resolved in a single episode? I'd rather he didn't deal with it at all and leave it for someone else. He's basically taking everything he can from the toy box and just leaving scraps. I'd rather he leave some things hanging for the next show runner.
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Nov 26, 2013 20:36
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PriorMarcus posted:I'd rather he didn't deal with it at all and leave it for someone else. He's basically taking everything he can from the toy box and just leaving scraps. I'd rather he leave some things hanging for the next show runner. He is dealing with this issue that was going to come up and giving free reign for everyone that follows. There is a very good chance he will get rid of the limit and allow for the show to go on until it ends.
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Nov 26, 2013 20:39
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PriorMarcus posted:I'd rather he didn't deal with it at all and leave it for someone else. He's basically taking everything he can from the toy box and just leaving scraps. I'd rather he leave some things hanging for the next show runner. The thing with Doctor Who is that there's always something new that can be done. Yeah, Moffat is taking the "big ones" of the 50th anniversary and the regeneration limit, but the next show runner can still play around in the nigh infinite sandbox the Doctor Who universe offers.
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Nov 26, 2013 20:39
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There is also the fact that he is bringing back the time lords which have been basicly off limits for the last 7 years.
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Nov 26, 2013 20:40
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I get the feeling from that spoiler synopsis that someone got part of the story and made up the rest. Like someone got a look at the promo pic with Smith holding the Cyberman head, the teaser trailer, and the BBC synopsis, and then added a bunch of their own made up stuff to make it sound like an episode that could possibly happen. The Bleeding Cool article seems to just be their reaction to seeing the spoiler synopsis we've seen. The biggest sore thumb for me in the synopsis is Matt Smith being the final regeneration, it just doesn't make sense as a plot point when it's already common knowledge that the next Doctor has been cast and that it obviously isn't his final regeneration. It makes a lot more sense from a storytelling point of view to have it be a looming threat for Capaldi during his tenure. The episode taking place over 900 years also sticks out as kind of unlikely as I really don't see The Doctor just sitting around for that long when he just gained this new mission of returning to Gallifrey in the 50th. But who knows I guess. The synopsis left a lot of information out that could end up turning what we have into a story that makes sense. I'm remaining cautiously optimistic that it will be good.
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Nov 26, 2013 20:41
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Yeah, the "leaked synopsis" can be one of two things; either it's accurate and that's why it matches up with the elements seen in the teaser image, or someone saw the teaser image and made up a bunch of plot elements that fit it.
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Nov 26, 2013 20:43
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smashthedean posted:The episode taking place over 900 years also sticks out as kind of unlikely as I really don't see The Doctor just sitting around for that long when he just gained this new mission of returning to Gallifrey in the 50th. It could be that he knows that his grave is here. Like in Angels in Manhatten once he reads the future it has to happen. Since he knows that he is fated to die there he can not leave.
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Nov 26, 2013 20:44
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It also just seems like they've already packed a 1/4 of the Doctor's life so far into Matt Smith's regeneration (if he's in his 1200s and Tennant regenerated in his 900s) and it would be really weird if they added another 900 years to his time as the Doctor making Capaldi ~2100 years old.
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Nov 26, 2013 20:49
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smashthedean posted:It also just seems like they've already packed a 1/4 of the Doctor's life so far into Matt Smith's regeneration (if he's in his 1200s and Tennant regenerated in his 900s) and it would be really weird if they added another 900 years to his time as the Doctor making Capaldi ~2100 years old. The Doctor lies.
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Nov 26, 2013 20:49
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I could almost buy that someone made it all up, except that Moffat did tell Radio Times that Smith is the 13th Doctor yesterday. Like it or not, it will be addressed for good this Christmas. http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2013-11-25/steven-moffat-is-rewriting-doctor-who-folklore-to-produce-a-christmas-cracker
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Nov 26, 2013 20:52
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smashthedean posted:It also just seems like they've already packed a 1/4 of the Doctor's life so far into Matt Smith's regeneration (if he's in his 1200s and Tennant regenerated in his 900s) and it would be really weird if they added another 900 years to his time as the Doctor making Capaldi ~2100 years old. Tennant regenerated at a younger age than McCoy said he was. quote:Tasha Lem La Masteh! He's back, as a woman!
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Nov 26, 2013 20:52
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smashthedean posted:It also just seems like they've already packed a 1/4 of the Doctor's life so far into Matt Smith's regeneration (if he's in his 1200s and Tennant regenerated in his 900s) and it would be really weird if they added another 900 years to his time as the Doctor making Capaldi ~2100 years old. In Day of the Doctor, 11 says "1200 years old, I think. Unless I'm lying. I can't remember if I'm lying about my age, that's how old I am." I remember one of the Eighth Doctor Adventures audios has 8 stuck on a planet for the better part of a millennium, so its safe to say that the Doctor has no clue exactly how old he is, and only recently started keeping relative track (His stated age as the 10th and 11th Doctor seem to be fairly internally consistent.)
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Nov 26, 2013 20:55
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Looks like the life expectancy for a single regeneration is somewhere between a thousand years and an entire time war.
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Nov 26, 2013 21:00
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Moffat is quoted in about a billion articles as calling Matt Smith "the Thirteenth Doctor" (alt Ten and Hurt both count), so it looks like at least part of it is true. The Doctor just lies about his age so i don't much care if the 900 years thing is true, but I do think this feels like a quick, roughshod way to address the regeneration limit, which I'm not a big fan of. The only reason to address it at all would be for narrative reasons, because, honestly, it would be so easy to just handwave in a dozen different ways. The only good thing about the regeneration limit would be making the Doctor examine his own mortality, which he is apparently now going to do in a single episode.
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Nov 26, 2013 21:08
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Bicyclops posted:Moffat is quoted in about a billion articles as calling Matt Smith "the Thirteenth Doctor" (alt Ten and Hurt both count), so it looks like at least part of it is true. He's been questioning his mortality since at least Tennant's year of specials. First it was "Regeneration is a lot like dying for the previous incarnation. I die and some new man goes sauntering away." And then in 11's run he's been running from Lake Silencio and Trenzalore.
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Nov 26, 2013 21:12
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jivjov posted:He's been questioning his mortality since at least Tennant's year of specials. First it was "Regeneration is a lot like dying for the previous incarnation. I die and some new man goes sauntering away." And then in 11's run he's been running from Lake Silencio and Trenzalore. Sure, but I mean, what's the purpose of even addressing the 13 limit otherwise, narratively? Because people are big on their weird canon? I know everyone seems to think this is an important part of Who Lore but the Master basically got an entirely new cycle with barely any explanation besides "Time War" and I'd frankly be fine with the same for the Doctor. I suppose they could be introducing it for The Mystery of Where the New Regeneration Came From. I don't know, I guess I'll have to see how they play it out.
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Nov 26, 2013 21:16
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Bicyclops posted:Sure, but I mean, what's the purpose of even addressing the 13 limit otherwise, narratively? Because people are big on their weird canon? I know everyone seems to think this is an important part of Who Lore but the Master basically got an entirely new cycle with barely any explanation besides "Time War" and I'd frankly be fine with the same for the Doctor. Yes but at that point he did not have any regenerations left. They said that the time lords gave him a new set, and at this point that is impossible to get.
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Nov 26, 2013 21:18
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Am I the only one who thinks it great that Capaldi is the same age Hartnell was when he started, and will also likely be the start of a whole new cycle? Or are we too busy bitching about the downsides of a thing we haven't seen yet?
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Nov 26, 2013 21:22
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Bicyclops posted:Sure, but I mean, what's the purpose of even addressing the 13 limit otherwise, narratively? Because people are big on their weird canon? I know everyone seems to think this is an important part of Who Lore but the Master basically got an entirely new cycle with barely any explanation besides "Time War" and I'd frankly be fine with the same for the Doctor. There are a whole legion of continuity-buffs out there (a minority, I know, but a VERY vocal one) that would be very upset if the regeneration limit wasn't addressed in some way. Hell, look at us! We're sitting here in this thread discussing the merits of addressing it. That means we're aware of it. Some of us want to to be quietly ignored, some people want it quietly addressed, some people want it to be a season-long story arc. For me, its an Interesting Thing (tm). Its been established in various sources that Time Lords generally only get 13 lives. There are ways around it, and exploring whatever way around it that the Doctor goes with has good storytelling potential. Its pretty much assured that he won't be stealing the lives of other time lords like the Master and the Valeyard tried to do, and it doesn't seem like the Doctor's MO to do the Time Lords' dirty work in exchange for a new regenerative cycle, so seeing just how the Doctor gets out of this particular jam is a fun thing to consider.
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Nov 26, 2013 21:31
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Maybe the Doctor pulls a Master and takes over a guy named Trodoc's body.
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Nov 26, 2013 21:36
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CaptainYesterday posted:Maybe the Doctor pulls a Master and takes over a guy named
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Nov 26, 2013 21:55
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I'd love it if they just kill the Doctor, flat out, and the next guy isn't even a Time Lord. It's just some random guy pretending to be the Doctor. Hell, Peter Capaldi can play Peter Capaldi. He finds a crashed TARDIS outside his house and just decides to do it. When people question the fact that he only has one heart or doesn't seem quite as clever, he either babbles techno-wankery at them or punches them in the throat.
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Nov 26, 2013 22:05
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I, too, want the next season to tank in the ratings. No wait, the opposite of that.
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Nov 26, 2013 22:15
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