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Awesome mid-season finale. And it's completely believable that RV-bury would follow the govenor. History has shown that it's nearly always: "Ah, this charismatic character makes sense" -> "I'll just do what he says" -> "It's all going to poo poo" -> "Well too late now, we've gone to far, better carry on what I'm doing" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment I don't think they'll get a better villain at this point. Unless it's an evil lady completely out of the left field.
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Dec 3, 2013 16:23
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euphronius posted:It would have totally been a better show if some unnamed Gov partisan iced Rick behind the bus. THE PWNER posted:There has to be a 1 on 1 between Luke and Vader.
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Dec 3, 2013 16:24
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So the mud zombie.....they could have had a good scene with a heavy night's rain fall and a mud slide and mud zombies getting up all around them.
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Dec 3, 2013 16:25
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FlamingLiberal posted:Well now we're getting down to the core of people from the beginning (Rick, Carl, Daryl, Carol, Glenn), so it's going to get progressively more difficult. They at least brought in a bunch of new people to replace characters like Andrea, Dale, Herschel, T-Dog, etc.  Carl too, I guess. I'd be okay with Rick dying at some point. And Carol became a total badass but then was promptly ejected from the show as soon as that happened, so I don't know where to stand with her.
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Dec 3, 2013 16:28
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Super Ninja Fish posted:Mine too but it's really going to take away from that moment if we find out that Judith's really dead and those kids just abandoned a baby to go fight. I would imagine having the baby die as a result of Carol's proteges following her teachings to be rather the whole point of those scenes. They're following her theory of gently caress the weak, survive at all costs to the letter. It follows that it be Rick's kid who pays the price given his point of view is completely opposed to Carol's.
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Dec 3, 2013 16:30
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I'm pretty sure Carol will be in the spin off. I can't think of any other reason for booting off an actor without giving them a gruesome death.
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Dec 3, 2013 16:31
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Mu Zeta posted:I'm pretty sure Carol will be in the spin off. I can't think of any other reason for booting off an actor without giving them a gruesome death. If you don't think Carol is going to dramatically reappear at some point, I don't know man.
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Dec 3, 2013 16:46
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zoux posted:Yeah, no show kills off more cast members than TWD. Will nothing slake your bloodlust? Spartacus would like a word.
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Dec 3, 2013 16:48
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Can anyone explain to me what the tank was doing? The enemy force was using a chain link fence to cover from bullets, and the tank was firing random shots into the side of the building (their future home). Why didn't they blast that bus that Rick was hiding behind, or even remember to check behind there when they strolled passed? Literally everyone saw Rick run behind there, and then forgot about it. Why didn't the tank fire at the fence line? At first I figured tanks take longer to reload than I must be imagining, but there were parts where it was firing extremely fast. Just randomly, into the side of poo poo. Edit: Whoever fed the rats to the zombies was taller than the girls. It dangles a rat down in-front of an adult zombies face and shines the flashlight level with it. Whoever is feeding rats to zombies is obviously the same person who is cutting them up. I'm betting it's Bob, and that's the mystery box he was trying to hide this episode. What other clues do we have? The only other person it could possibly be is Carl, but again, the person at the fence was tall. In fact, let's think about this. When they discover the rat this episode, Herschel and Michonne were hostage. Rick and Daryl were looking for Tyreese. Carol is gone. Everyone else is too sick. So the only possible suspects are Carl, Beth, Bob, Tyreese and the little girls. There's no hints that it could be Beth or Tyreese (Tyreese was still grossed out by the zombies at ep 2 with the rats), so forget them. Bob is the only adult left, he already has emotional issues with his drinking, and he was seen with a mystery box that he tried to hide as soon as Sasha saw him. Baldbeard fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Dec 3, 2013 |
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Dec 3, 2013 16:51
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STAC Goat posted:My personal money is that the girl fed the zombies, Carol killed the people, and someone else entirely mutilated the animal. I'm of the opinion that not only is the girl a red herring but so is the idea that these things are connected at all (Rick even presents that notion right before all hell breaks loose). I, like others, am slightly leaning towards Bob being the animal mutilator/psycho since that box was weird and if I remember correctly he was pretty vague about why his previous groups fell apart. But I also think its interesting that Tyresse might have gotten isolated with the girls after he saw them kill people and before anyone could let him in on Carol confessing as the killer. That seems like it might be a setup for him to discover the girl mutilating animals and then leaping to the conclusion that she killed the sick people. I really hope you're right because like you said, Carol covering for the murders would just be ridiculous. It just doesn't make sense on any level for her to leave without telling anyone that one of the girls is a murderer.
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Dec 3, 2013 16:51
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Bob is the rat guy. Last one we seen, it was pinned out like how a vivisectionist would do it. Like someone who was given biology training, like a medic, like Bob. Bet you the box he was carrying doesn't carry liquor like we think, its his medical cutting tools or current pet rat.
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Dec 3, 2013 17:20
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I don't know much about gun training, but I figured the reason people could take out zombies so easily and still never be able to shoot a living person was because single zombies in this show are slow-moving targets and not immediately threatening unless they're right next to you, so people can just take their time to aim and shoot it. Whereas with a human target that's shooting at you, you're probably not going to stand still and take time to line up your shot just right. Mind you, plot armor was still in full effect for this episode, but unless I'm misremembering the prison crew only started out next to the chain link fence and quickly took cover behind bins and cars and such after the shooting started. The only egregious examples I can think of is Rick hiding behind the bus and becoming invisible to the Governor's crew, and Tyreese taking cover behind jack poo poo at first and still never getting shot. After that bullshit, lying behind potted plants basically made him invulnerable. I can only assume the bullets were afraid of pissing him off.
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Dec 3, 2013 17:21
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CODChimera posted:I really hope you're right because like you said, Carol covering for the murders would just be ridiculous. It just doesn't make sense on any level for her to leave without telling anyone that one of the girls is a murderer. Sure it does.
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Dec 3, 2013 17:23
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Maybe someone did investigate Rick behind the bus and he shot them. Hershel is reloading his shot gun off screen, remember. Also I am warming on the child killer theory. It would be a neat juxtaposition to Carl's "murder". In both cases we would have a child killing someone where there is clear moral grey lines between whether the killing was justified or not. The children's moral are not fully formed and they are forced to grow up in an apocalypse where great moral questions are thrown in their face constantly. Also Carol covering makes sense because Carol is responsible. Maybe she didn't pull the trigger, but she is definitely a proximate cause. euphronius fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Dec 3, 2013 |
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Dec 3, 2013 17:23
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I absolutely agree it's Bob. I just wonder why. I get it that it's still supposed to be a mystery at this point but there aren't many conceivable benefits to it and if it's just "he's crazy" well that's an oddly heavily built up plot point.
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Dec 3, 2013 17:25
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Huh, I'd never considered that feeding the zombies was more about torturing the rats than being kind to the zombies.
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Dec 3, 2013 17:26
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Baldbeard posted:Can anyone explain to me what the tank was doing? Well it was obvious the tank was meant to be the cover for them to get up to the prison itself, that was the main 'plan'. So if the driver deviated from it, gently caress knows what would happen. He was the main mover in this. And he may have thought that someone would take care of Rick, what could Rick do against his tank anyway. And the tank didn't want to blow away the structures they wanted to live in afterwards. It could have leveled the front yard in seconds, but that would leave it useless for them afterwards. Still, the WW1 tactics makes good action scenes, gently caress all logic. Hell, a team of three could take that place with knives.
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Dec 3, 2013 17:28
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The show this entire season has had neat little close ups on animals that speak to a larger theme in the show. Last week there was a night crawler worm right before Gov crew finds the bait campground. In the first show there was a black widow spider before Clara or whatever her name was leads Rick into a trap. This week there was a prison rat with its innards exposed which I think is a neat symbol for the situation Rick crew finds themselves. edit One thing I loved about this episode is that in the beginning, they actually showed Rick crew burning piles of zombies. And we could see there were a lot of old piles there. That actually answered one of the questions I had about what they were doing with the bodies. It makes sense they would not want them to pile up against the fence. Also I loved how in the river scene, the current alive washed away zombie "became" the zombie under the mud. That was excellent visual communication. euphronius fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Dec 3, 2013 |
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Dec 3, 2013 17:29
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Haha I really liked how after Daryl threw the first grenade, Tara just spaced out and threw her gun down and walked off. It rang true to me, and emphasized how these aren't battle hardened killers, they're just regular people in over their heads.
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Dec 3, 2013 17:38
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Nthman posted:My favorite part of the last episode was the kids saving Tyrice. They took some lessons from Carl. Hey man, be careful with that one; what happens if you're wrong?
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Dec 3, 2013 17:40
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That DICK! posted:I absolutely agree it's Bob. I just wonder why. I get it that it's still supposed to be a mystery at this point but there aren't many conceivable benefits to it and if it's just "he's crazy" well that's an oddly heavily built up plot point. Just occured to me. He is a serial killer, and the rats were his 'release' in tightly controlled place like a prison. Can't kill some easily. We will see that they were not doing it any more for him and he attacks Sasha if they are by themselves. The drink just distracts him from it. Feeding the rats to the zombies is a sort of red herring I think, that wasn't to attract more of them, that was him just loving around killing them in as gruesome way he could. A few dead rats wouldn't bring zombies, remember that someone hung up the deer and cow meat hanging at the perimeter and that didn't really attract many.
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Dec 3, 2013 17:40
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euphronius posted:
Well then she's also going to be responsible for any more murders they commit.
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Dec 3, 2013 17:42
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Wasn't Bob also the sole survivor of like two other groups?
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Dec 3, 2013 17:47
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verybad posted:A few points: That's good leverage in a hostage situation if you don't care about the lives of the hostages. quote:2. The Governor chose Rick to parley with him. Rick's answer to that was "I don't make the decisions here anymore." The Governor's answer was "gently caress you, you're making it now." That isn't true. He didn't say Rick had to make the decision now. He said they had to leave before sundown. But Rick's like "I don't need the input from the others. gently caress them. I'm the leader. I'll go ahead and refuse right now. Hmm.. I wonder what will happen" No matter whether you think his plan was a good one or not, it's inexcusable that he didn't discuss it with the others, especially Hershel's daughters. I think it makes him completely irredeemable. If I'm Maggie or Beth and I find out what happened, I wouldn't even want him in the group anymore. quote:3. Did you miss the part where Rick offered to share the prison, with that speech about how "we get to come back" & all? It's almost as if he was taking an moral stance of sorts instead of embracing the bullshit survival-for-me-and-mine attitude that permeates the world Rick made the offer, and the governor rejected it. Then he comes up with the dumbest most stubborn self-centered decision he's made thus far in the series, not even taking into consideration what Hershel's family might think or that he's putting everyone else in immediate danger. At least if he had went back and talked about it, he could have had everyone get ready. He could have had the kids on the bus. He could have made sure Judith was safe. Even if the governor would have sent people after them and Rick was right in refusing to leave, it's still moronic of him to not let everyone know he's going to refuse before he does it. STAC Goat posted:Also, anyone who actually thinks the Governor was going to let them all walk away from the prison is either very, very forgiving or very, very forgetful. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. Although even he would send people after them, they would have Michonne and Hershel back. (I doubt he would just kill them in front of everybody and chance that his new family and new community would leave him) They would be in vehicles. They would have to be found. The people he sends would have to be okay with shooting at children in cars and busses for no good reason. Even Martinez and Merle would most likely have had a problem with that. quote:Not to mention that he hadn't pulled a gun or told the Governor to gently caress off. He was trying to reason with him and resolve this mess, and most certainly hopeful that the people with the guns were listening too. The Governor killing Hershell was somewhat sudden, and I should note well before his stated "sundown" deadline. It was after Rick made his choice and said we're not leaving. Either we all live here, or no one lives here. Governor made his decision based off of that ultimatum. And we all knew what that decision was going to be before he made it. some bust on that guy fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Dec 3, 2013 |
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Dec 3, 2013 17:55
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Well, what were Rick's choices other than to refuse? Pack up and hope the Governor wouldn't slaughter them all once he and his people were out in the open? The rest of the group pretty much told him silently to go out there and call the shots before he left to talk to the Governor. He could've gone back and told them all to prepare, but they seemed pretty prepared already. As for not caring about Hershel and Michonne's lives, Rick was fairly obviously playing hardball by pointing out that the Governor couldn't risk destroying the prison if he wanted to live in it. Rick took five minutes to say his speech and try to convince everyone, including the Governor, to try and resolve things peacefully. It even almost seemed to work, until the Governor decided to go psycho. The fact that we knew what decision the Governor was going to make, given that we saw his actions in full throughout the last two seasons, unlike Rick's crew, doesn't mean Rick should've known he couldn't be talked out of it. For that same reason, Rick had to try and resolve things peacefully, since otherwise there was pretty much no way he could know that the Governor wouldn't just kill the hostages there, and probably no way that the prison crew could get them back from that position.
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Dec 3, 2013 18:14
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So I guess then they will probably say that Bob killed the two people since he is a serial killer and saw an opportunity? If they go with that, I'm not sure why Carol would take the credit though. Hopefully it is still the case that she offed them.moths posted:Wasn't Bob also the sole survivor of like two other groups?
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Dec 3, 2013 18:19
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FlamingLiberal posted:So I guess then they will probably say that Bob killed the two people since he is a serial killer and saw an opportunity? If they go with that, I'm not sure why Carol would take the credit though. Hopefully it is still the case that she offed them. I'm sorry what?
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Dec 3, 2013 18:20
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Super Ninja Fish posted:It was after Rick made his choice and said we're not leaving. Either we all live here, or no one lives here. Governor made his decision based off of that ultimatum. And we all knew what that decision was going to be before he made it. The governor didn't make his decision for any rational reason at all. Rick was in the process of trying to negotiate with this group, and when he said "we can make this work, we've all done terrible things but we can come back from that", the governor snapped and murdered Hershel just to prove Rick was wrong. It even did the ringing-in-the-ears Gov. point of view that we last saw before mowing down the Woodbury citizens right before to emphasize that point. Rick (and I'd imagine most of the prison camp) believed that leaving the prison was a death sentence, for exactly the same reasons that the Gov. believed that not being in the prison was a death sentence. They weren't just going to immediately roll over at the first threat without trying to find some kind of peaceful solution or appealing to the other sides conscience. Rick can't be faulted for the Governor snapping and going back on his word that they had until sundown to leave.
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Dec 3, 2013 18:27
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13stitches posted:Maybe then they don't spend two episodes to tell a convoluted story aiming to restyle a character who changed his convictions scene by scene. Good thing Dexter hosed up the whole big bad thing even worse because the Gov would've been a frontrunner for shittiest antagonist of the year in whatever lovely end of the year TV show list someone might come up with. Honestly, I think those episodes showing him attempt to change his stripes worked even better with Rick's speech. Rick had a point, and you could tell he was thisclose to changing the minds of most of the Camper Camp Crew (except maybe Charlie who would have followed the Governor's lead though). The journey of the Governor showed us that it was impossible for him to ever have his mind changed by Rick. You could also tell that he really wanted to see himself in Rick. He really wanted to believe Rick was his mirror, his equal. Which is why he demanded to negotiate with Rick alone. gently caress this Council poo poo, he knew Rick was truly in charge, because after all what would he do in Rick's place? Sure, he might have a council, but they'd be figureheads. He KNEW Rick had to be pulling the strings, because that's what he would do. So when he whispered "liar" he really meant that. He thought Rick was trying to trick him because that's what he would have done in Rick's place, and he sees them as two sides of the same coin. euphronius posted:Kirkman said in Talking dead they (the writers) are having an increasingly hard time of killing people off. This and his "We have to give main characters epic deaths" philosophy has me more worried then anything else about the show. This is a show which has whittled it's original cast down to 4 and has had pretty much no main character shields. The idea that they will suddenly start just having Redshirts getting ganked by flaming arrows left and right while nothing ever happens to fan favorites would suck. And one of the best tv deaths ever was Derek Reese in Terminator:SCC getting ganked by a random terminator as he walked around a corner. This show NEEDS to be able to have that kind of shock.
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Dec 3, 2013 18:48
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zoux posted:Haha Daryl was just lucky, it's the classic Civilization glitch in which the medieval crossbowmen or spearman somehow destroys a modern tank.
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Dec 3, 2013 18:56
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Super Ninja Fish posted:victim blaming drat man. Governor totally wouldn't have raped Rick if Rick weren't such a sexy talker. etalian posted:Daryl was just lucky, it's the classic Civilization glitch in which the medieval crossbowmen or spearman somehow destroys a modern tank. Not really a glitch. Tanks need infantry protection or they are pretty vulnerable. Fog Tripper fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Dec 3, 2013 |
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Dec 3, 2013 18:58
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Super Ninja Fish posted:That's good leverage in a hostage situation if you don't care about the lives of the hostages. Before Rick went down to the fence to talk to the Governor, he looked at Darryl and Darryl gave him the nod. While at the fence negotiating, he looks at both Herschel and Michonne, and they both give him a nod. They are either giving him approval to negotiate with the backing of the council, or they have cricks in all of their necks
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Dec 3, 2013 19:02
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I don't think this is a great idea but The Rat Man could be one of the people in the bus that we haven't met yet to give Glenn someone to be in conflict with. Honestly I think introducing that dissected rat was pretty dumb already.
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Dec 3, 2013 19:03
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Surlaw posted:I don't think this is a great idea but The Rat Man could be one of the people in the bus that we haven't met yet to give Glenn someone to be in conflict with. Honestly I think introducing that dissected rat was pretty dumb already. I didn't like the storyline that I think this comes from in the comics and I'm not looking forward to it playing out on the show, but who knows, maybe it will be good. They did a real interesting if slightly flawed in its ending half season and next season will probably be pretty good, too.
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Dec 3, 2013 19:49
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Obviously it would make sense for Rick to go nuts and start shooting when the Gov kills Herschel, but if he'd kept his cool for just a minute longer then he'd have had an infinitely stronger bargaining position. "You guys really want to follow a dude who cut off an unarmed, polite old man's head when I'm trying to talk about living together and being cool? This is your leader's go-to solution?"
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Dec 3, 2013 20:03
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Buzkashi posted:Obviously it would make sense for Rick to go nuts and start shooting when the Gov kills Herschel, but if he'd kept his cool for just a minute longer then he'd have had an infinitely stronger bargaining position. "You guys really want to follow a dude who cut off an unarmed, polite old man's head when I'm trying to talk about living together and being cool? This is your leader's go-to solution?" Even if Rick had managed to remain calm during that, the same could not be said for every other prison camper. Especially not Beth and Maggie.
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Dec 3, 2013 20:42
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You'd think the tank driver would've known to close the breech when that grenade went in. Though I guess they might've already loaded a round.
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Dec 3, 2013 20:51
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Astroman posted:This and his "We have to give main characters epic deaths" philosophy has me more worried then anything else about the show. This is a show which has whittled it's original cast down to 4 and has had pretty much no main character shields. The idea that they will suddenly start just having Redshirts getting ganked by flaming arrows left and right while nothing ever happens to fan favorites would suck. And one of the best tv deaths ever was Derek Reese in Terminator:SCC getting ganked by a random terminator as he walked around a corner. This show NEEDS to be able to have that kind of shock. Yeah, basically this. Rick, Carl, Michonne, and Daryl are safe. A few other characters as well. In a show when the core group of characters are in violent situations, any of them need to be able to be killed at any time or it starts to become monotonous. The only real plot shields should be historical ones, really (ie. Spartacus, Boardwalk Empire). Otherwise, it should be like Game of Thrones (as it exists in the show, not talking about the obvious plot shields of following the novels), where every single character, no matter how liked, can die at any time, or turn out to be a total poo poo.
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Dec 3, 2013 21:01
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I have to think Glenn and/or Maggie are the next to go. I know a lot of people thought one of them could have been offed earlier.
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Dec 3, 2013 21:09
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VH4Ever posted:Dude, really? That was Michonne. I dunno, man, I was pretty confused by that as well. Does Rick just have some really long, black legs or something?
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Dec 3, 2013 21:20
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