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K8.0 posted:Riot wound up paying the ex-MRN players and permabanning Marn from LCS and all related tournaments in any capacity. Do you have a link to a Riot post? I never found out how all of that resolved and I can't find anything about it.
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Dec 10, 2013 02:11
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I agree that the NA LCS is going to be full of weak teams, but I'm not sure that Coast is one of them. I could see them placing top 3 this split. Shiphtur is a besat. Edit: It's funny that Najin Black Sword will be in NLB AGAIN this season and I'm sure they could easily smash anyone other than maybe C9/TSM. Sexpansion fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Dec 10, 2013 |
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Dec 10, 2013 03:15
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Sexpansion posted:It's funny that Najin Black Sword will be in NLB AGAIN this season and I'm sure they could easily smash anyone other than maybe C9/TSM. On the other hand, Blizzard let all the sc2 koreans go to Europe/America and it practically destroyed the competative scene. 15 Koreans and 1 Foreigner at blizzcon does not make for appealing watching. If Riot is smart they will keep the scenes seperate which creates more hype for worlds and the all star tournament.
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Dec 10, 2013 04:08
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theystolemyname posted:On the other hand, Blizzard let all the sc2 koreans go to Europe/America and it practically destroyed the competative scene. 15 Koreans and 1 Foreigner at blizzcon does not make for appealing watching. If Riot is smart they will keep the scenes seperate which creates more hype for worlds and the all star tournament. The Koreans didn't go to America, they played from Korea. That was the huge issue.
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Dec 10, 2013 04:11
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K8.0 posted:Riot wound up paying the ex-MRN players and permabanning Marn from LCS and all related tournaments in any capacity. Source? I never heard anything about this. oO
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Dec 10, 2013 04:38
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Jerkface posted:I'm surprised MegaZero doesn't have stronger nerves, shouldn't he have been toughened up from being shoved in lockers and trash cans all his life? As Brunch said on Reddit, http://puu.sh/5FzKg.jpg
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Dec 10, 2013 04:55
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Studio posted:Edit: Also... MegaZero sucks in competitive play when push comes to shove. He didn't play well at Spring Relegations, he didn't play well last weekend. Dude chokes too hard. I feel like he's still stronger week-in week-out than Cruzer. And a Krepopie botlane would make my dignitas fan-ness all the stronger.
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Dec 10, 2013 05:33
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Studio posted:The Koreans didn't go to America, they played from Korea. That was the huge issue. Whether they moved to America or not, It doesn't foster any sort of regional interest when all the tournaments are won by koreans. WCS America was a joke. It was literally code B from GSL two years ago, and I lost all interest in watching competitive starcraft once they allowed the GSL veterans to play in NA/Europe. Sure you technically get to see more of the best players, but you lose out on having players you relate to and want to root for.
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Dec 10, 2013 05:33
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theystolemyname posted:Whether they moved to America or not, It doesn't foster any sort of regional interest when all the tournaments are won by koreans. WCS America was a joke. It was literally code B from GSL two years ago, and I lost all interest in watching competitive starcraft once they allowed the GSL veterans to play in NA/Europe. Sure you technically get to see more of the best players, but you lose out on having players you relate to and want to root for. As the guy who wrote that big interview from last week, I really have to disagree. You're right about SC2, but these Quantic guys were very happy to share about themselves and I get the sense that if they had gotten into LCS, they would be a big part of the community and culture of NA League of Legends.
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Dec 10, 2013 05:36
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theystolemyname posted:On the other hand, Blizzard let all the sc2 koreans go to Europe/America and it practically destroyed the competative scene. 15 Koreans and 1 Foreigner at blizzcon does not make for appealing watching. If Riot is smart they will keep the scenes seperate which creates more hype for worlds and the all star tournament. I think Blizzard made a pretty big mistake there, but I also think there is room for a few non NA or EU teams in the LCS. I wouldn't want NA LCS to turn into Koreas B or C league, but having 1 or 2 teams playing would do nothing but good things for the scene in my opinion.
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Dec 10, 2013 05:42
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curiousCat posted:I feel like he's still stronger week-in week-out than Cruzer. Totally agree.
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Dec 10, 2013 05:53
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Homura posted:Source? I never heard anything about this. oO Mega made a reddit post about it, I dunno how to direct link stuff on reddit but you can see it here http://www.reddit.com/user/MegaZeroLoL
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Dec 10, 2013 05:58
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Frgrbrgr posted:As the guy who wrote that big interview from last week, I really have to disagree. You're right about SC2, but these Quantic guys were very happy to share about themselves and I get the sense that if they had gotten into LCS, they would be a big part of the community and culture of NA League of Legends. Could I have a link to this interview? I must have missed it.
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Dec 10, 2013 06:04
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Failboattootoot posted:I wouldn't want NA LCS to turn into Koreas B or C league I would. Korean C league is way more interesting than every game VES played in s3 put together. It's just not compelling watching bad teams (the best of NA) play worse teams (the bottom of NA) Import the Makswoon
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Dec 10, 2013 06:09
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Previous Jesus posted:Could I have a link to this interview? I must have missed it. http://na.lolesports.com/articles/quantic-physics-interview-prime Here you go!
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Dec 10, 2013 06:10
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Damiya posted:I would. Korean C league is way more interesting than every game VES played in s3 put together. People seriously overdramatize how bad NA is - it's not like Brazil or something. C9 was in their first split as a team together last split and TSM replaced their weakest player with Bjergsen, there's no reason to write them off as "bad" already.
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Dec 10, 2013 06:28
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its not as if the na teams were totally outclassed at worlds either, they lost but they're definitely competitive, which as an sc2 fan I will tell you you should be thankful for
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Dec 10, 2013 06:37
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[e: wrong thread]
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Dec 10, 2013 06:42
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Depends on your definition of competitive.
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Dec 10, 2013 08:01
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Invalid Validation posted:Depends on your definition of competitive. c9 went 1-1 in a bo3 before having the worst level 1 imaginable
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Dec 10, 2013 08:06
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fariz posted:c9 went 1-1 in a bo3 before having the worst level 1 imaginable Now now, if you make an excuse for C9 you can make an excuse for Fnatic: They had their trademark "Game of total shitpicks" that caused them a loss day one of Group Stages. So clearly Fnatic went 1-0 and won the Bo3 factoring in excuses.
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Dec 10, 2013 08:12
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theystolemyname posted:Whether they moved to America or not, It doesn't foster any sort of regional interest when all the tournaments are won by koreans. WCS America was a joke. It was literally code B from GSL two years ago, and I lost all interest in watching competitive starcraft once they allowed the GSL veterans to play in NA/Europe. Sure you technically get to see more of the best players, but you lose out on having players you relate to and want to root for. And what do you think you're gonna see at Worlds then? NA teams get crushed then going back to doing blogs where they speak about how they failed and how they'll do better next time, is that what you'll "relate" to? International experience is what the NA scene need a lot, and if bringing in better players, whether you think they're fun for you to watch or not, helps the scene as a whole then people should welcome it and encourage it, there's no chance in hell NA teams will get their act together and start practicing to the standards of other regions unless they see how they train and get their asses handed to them so they realize they have to pick up the pace. Unless you want NA as a whole to be excluded from worlds so you can stop at seeing DL calling people he can't even play against trash, Dyrus being passive on stream until he rages ever so often and Regin getting into arguments with his team in their live reality show. Boy what fun LoL that would be! I don't even think NA is that far behind anyway, they need to discipline themselves and iron out mistakes they keep making since they really can't afford to repeat them, koreans in particular are really good at that point and if for example TSM hadn't made some pretty big basic errors (dyrus dying top after he evaded a 3v1 dive early dive very well is the first thing that comes to mind) their games vs omg and skt would've been a lot closer. But there's so much money being thrown at advertising that teams in NA know that all they have to do is stay relevant within NA and then spend resources on streaming, advertising (LOL reality shows) etc to be successful financially and most of the time they're satisfied just with that. So yes, NA should be begging to make its' own scene more competitive as far as i'm concerned. Besides LoL isn't like Starcraft where you understand the game strategically then grind all day to train your muscle memory and study your opponents when you know you're up against them, LoL allows for much more breathing room with mechanical or strategical play (you can make up lack of one with the other) and it's a team game so pressure's split anyway. I've already raged enough about people crying about competitive e-sports personalities and how they need to like "their pros" otherwise they can't "relate" before so i don't want to get into it again but if you LIKE NA teams you should be demanding better teams be brought in so they get better practice and become better as a whole. edit: to touch on the SC thing since it still bothers me though - it's inconceivable that you DEMAND better players removed from a scene because the players you empathize with are getting their asses handed to them, there's no word that describes how dumb that poo poo is. You should be asking the players you like to loving get better at the game and stop sucking as a whole. But i definitely agree that koreans are taking no risks and making no efforts to actually involves themselves in the NA scene if they can afford training in Korea which has a different environment alltogether, players who play in a scene/region should live in that scene/region so they can actually help the players there improve actively. Studio posted:Now now, if you make an excuse for C9 you can make an excuse for Fnatic: They had their trademark "Game of total shitpicks" that caused them a loss day one of Group Stages. So clearly Fnatic went 1-0 and won the Bo3 factoring in excuses. You can argue that Fnatic could've won their game with TF as well for a 2-0, Doublelift explained why fairly well on the analysis desk, but that's a whole lot of what if's we'd be dealing in. Point is C9's playstyle has a lot of weaknesses and if you will invest so many resources in your jungler so that he'll become a full-fledged carry you need to make sure that wager pays off and that your lanes play very safe so they don't get crushed so hard that by the time said jungler comes out it's already too late. The only way C9 can improve upon said weaknesses is by playing vs teams who crush their lanes soundly so they can actually improve and it's clear that the rest of the NA teams, at least in the summer split, weren't able to break through C9's laning phase. uaciaut fucked around with this message at 08:45 on Dec 10, 2013 |
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Dec 10, 2013 08:24
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In a bo3 where the set is quite easily the only series of matches you are allowed to play there is no margin for error or mistakes caused by "accidents" or "misplays" and is an objective indicator of a team's skill. The same poo poo happened to Quantic and Curse Academy for the NA LCS Qualifiers after dozens of matches where they proved themselves superior to COG and TBD in the past months but when it came down to it both those teams choked like motherfuckers and are out of the runnings.
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Dec 10, 2013 08:53
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Jackie D posted:its not as if the na teams were totally outclassed at worlds either, they lost but they're definitely competitive, which as an sc2 fan I will tell you you should be thankful for Their showing at worlds involved getting completely pooped on by the good teams and that was a scenario in which mandatory region requirements provided fodder for wins and limited the strongest regions (Korea and China) from fielding multiple contenders. I'd take the top 8 of Korea over the top 2 in NA any and every day.
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Dec 10, 2013 08:56
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steakmancer posted:In a bo3 where the set is quite easily the only series of matches you are allowed to play there is no margin for error or mistakes caused by "accidents" or "misplays" and is an objective indicator of a team's skill. It's such a small sample size that this can't be true. If anything, bo3s allow worse teams to pull off wins due to gimmicky team comps or lucky level 1 fights.
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Dec 10, 2013 17:26
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Homura posted:It's such a small sample size that this can't be true. If anything, bo3s allow worse teams to pull off wins due to gimmicky team comps or lucky level 1 fights. Ridiculous. Unless of course NA win BotA. Then you'll be right.
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Dec 10, 2013 18:18
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CODChimera posted:Ridiculous. Is anyone actually arguing NA is better than EU? It's not even worth discussing, just based on LAN results and Worlds. Not like it matters, since China and Korea poo poo all over both regions.
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Dec 10, 2013 18:50
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Studio posted:The Koreans didn't go to America, they played from Korea. That was the huge issue. Yeah, to clarify Blizzard only made players show up for Top 8 of their region, meaning that you could easily play from Korea (with a bit of lag) and show up for the big games
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Dec 10, 2013 19:12
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Homura posted:It's such a small sample size that this can't be true. If anything, bo3s allow worse teams to pull off wins due to gimmicky team comps or lucky level 1 fights. BO3 is enough imo to give away the better team. You can't rely on gimmicks to carry you through vs a team that's clearly superior. Look at worlds for example - only bo5 that would've ended the other way if it were a bo3 was njsb vs skt and even then that's mostly because skt refused to ban gragas vs nagne earlier which was a bad decision by them and they would've deserved the defeat for it (though i still believe skt would've been the superior team).
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Dec 10, 2013 19:55
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Studio posted:Now now, if you make an excuse for C9 you can make an excuse for Fnatic: They had their trademark "Game of total shitpicks" that caused them a loss day one of Group Stages. So clearly Fnatic went 1-0 and won the Bo3 factoring in excuses. Yes but C9 had rust from not playing so long so that means it was actually 0-0 and thus they shook hands and flipped a coin
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Dec 10, 2013 19:57
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uaciaut posted:BO3 is enough imo to give away the better team. You can't rely on gimmicks to carry you through vs a team that's clearly superior. Wouldn't you think that 2 teams are closer after a 3-2 series than a 2-1 though? If two teams are pretty evenly matched and the series ends at 2-1, then it's pretty inconclusive to me, simply because one team can do 2 coinflips and have a shot at winning the series. It's just like in SC2, where you can cheese an opponent twice in a row and take wins off them, despite not necessarily being better than them.
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Dec 10, 2013 20:14
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Why isn't successfully cheesing another team or player a viable way to show that your are better in certain ways. The best overall teams don't necessarily win in real sports and I personally think those kinds of tactics are acceptable. I don't think most tournaments, real life or not, actually find the most overall talented players or teams, just the most successful, which is a big difference. This success can be as short term as the tournament and I think it's inherent in the format. Regular season records are much better at evaluating how good a team is overall. spacebrospiff fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Dec 10, 2013 |
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Dec 10, 2013 20:17
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spacebrospiff posted:Why isn't successfully cheesing another team or player a viable way to show that your are better in certain ways. The best overall teams don't necessarily win in real sports. I'll go one further - innovative "cheese" or whatever, even if it only works once, is an awesome strategy and as a viewer I love to see it happen. Like the time Xenics Storm pulled out that Heimerdinger push comp on CJ Blaze (I think it was Blaze?) and won in ten minutes. Those kinds of matches are great to see.
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Dec 10, 2013 20:18
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Sexpansion posted:I'll go one further - innovative "cheese" or whatever, even if it only works once, is an awesome strategy and as a viewer I love to see it happen. Like the time Xenics Storm pulled out that Heimerdinger push comp on CJ Blaze (I think it was Blaze?) and won in ten minutes. Those kinds of matches are great to see. Is there a link to this? Gimmick victories are something I don't see.
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Dec 10, 2013 20:24
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Tae posted:Is there a link to this? Gimmick victories are something I don't see. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRAoZJolrYI I think this is the one that he was talking about, I hope. It was GSG though.
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Dec 10, 2013 20:27
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spacebrospiff posted:Why isn't successfully cheesing another team or player a viable way to show that your are better in certain ways. The best overall teams don't necessarily win in real sports and I personally think those kinds of tactics are acceptable. Because cheese is specifically designed to make a skill gap between two teams irrelevant. If Velocity or some poo poo NA amateur team managed to cheese their way to a 2-1 win over SKT, would that make them somehow the more skillful or better team? I take your point though -- a win is a win, and that might be enough to win a tournament, but if you cheesed your way through the entire bracket and won something, I don't think you'd get much respect from fans or other teams that way (which is the issue here).
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Dec 10, 2013 20:28
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Tae posted:Is there a link to this? Gimmick victories are something I don't see. It's this game - I guess it was GSG not Storm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRAoZJolrYI
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Dec 10, 2013 20:30
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Homura posted:Because cheese is specifically designed to make a skill gap between two teams irrelevant. If Velocity or some poo poo NA amateur team managed to cheese their way to a 2-1 win over SKT, would that make them somehow the more skillful or better team? It wouldn't make them mechanically better but I could argue that they were more skillful in their strategy. Outwitting your opponent is something I personally love seeing and actually watching a team be able to outwit much better players in an entire tournament would be awesome to me. I completely understand people who prefer watching pure mechanical skill but I like the cerebral aspect more so. Sure, if they just beat the main competitor in the first round and immediately lost afterwards it would be disappointing and probably make the tournament worse. I guess I just don't care because it's inherent in the format. spacebrospiff fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Dec 10, 2013 |
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Dec 10, 2013 20:32
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Homura posted:Because cheese is specifically designed to make a skill gap between two teams irrelevant. If Velocity or some poo poo NA amateur team managed to cheese their way to a 2-1 win over SKT, would that make them somehow the more skillful or better team? It'd make them the people's champions though. Every time a pro player wins in SC2 with a cannon rush an angel gets its wings.
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Dec 10, 2013 20:51
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Homura posted:Because cheese is specifically designed to make a skill gap between two teams irrelevant. If Velocity or some poo poo NA amateur team managed to cheese their way to a 2-1 win over SKT, would that make them somehow the more skillful or better team? If you could "cheese" your way through an entire bracket you deserve it because that would mean no other team could come up with something to beat the strat, refused to adjust, or whatever the case was. Overall mechanically maybe the team isn't as skilled, but they definitely out-thought the opponent and strategy is a big part of the game. Yes, its fun and amazing to watch SKT and NJB just go at each other and be mechanically perfect for a 5 game set to see who comes out on top, but its also fun (to me) to see a completely superior strategy win out.
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