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I imagine in the Gundam X world, things are standardized enough that you can salvage a good amount of useful parts to fix one mobile suit from any other.
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Dec 10, 2013 07:26
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BlitzBlast posted:As much as it likes to remind you of the colony drops (seriously I think the first 10 episodes start with that narration crawl), the show starts shortly after the Earth has finally started getting back on its feet. A lot of the characters still remember how absolutely lovely it was, but most of them don't really dwell on it and just move forwards. I'm fine with that and I actually enjoy gundam x's theme of optimism, but I just think it missed some storytelling opportunities and some cool things they could have done with the setting.It's sort of like how destiny tries to convince you that the whole junius seven falling onto earth devasted the planet, but aside from one episode, we never really see the after-effects.
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Dec 10, 2013 07:27
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Monaghan posted:I'm fine with that and I actually enjoy gundam x's theme of optimism, but I just think it missed some storytelling opportunities and some cool things they could have done with the setting.It's sort of like how destiny tries to convince you that the whole junius seven falling onto earth devasted the planet, but aside from one episode, we never really see the after-effects. A lot of that stems from people making Gundam shows (and mecha shows in general) speaking in the language of Gundam, so to say. As it was in Gundam, it shall be here. There's an assumption that some thematic piece or plot device will be readily understandable and internalized by the viewer through the lens of Gundam. It's really bad in shows that ape UC because it shows that they don't understand that they aren't making Gundam, they're making whatever show they're making. AGE had a lot of problems predicated on leaning on the Gundam crutch without realizing that just because it's Gundam doesn't mean it has to use x plot device, x character archetype, or at least if they do use them, they have to be internally logical and can't just rely on the fact that Gundam did it. also the scene where they use the Diva to pull the colony tube still makes me really mad about space
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Dec 10, 2013 07:31
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Monaghan posted:It's sort of like how destiny tries to convince you that the whole junius seven falling onto earth devasted the planet, but aside from one episode, we never really see the after-effects. Man, I get what you're saying but comparing X to Destiny is just cruel. In Destiny the show ends probably a couple months after Junius Seven's fall. X starts 15 years after the cataclysmic war. A lot of the landscape is still pretty hosed up, but you can't really expect there to still be motorcycle gangs or whatever roaming around. EDIT: V Hahaha man that'd be great. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 07:47 on Dec 10, 2013 |
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Dec 10, 2013 07:39
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Okay I feel you but maybe you shouldn't make me think of roving Mobile Suit Motorcycle Gangs to make your point?? Just reuse motorads from V
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Dec 10, 2013 07:43
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I recently finished Gundam X and I really really disliked it, but I was rushing to get through the end so overloading on it probably didn't help. I did manage to see it all the way through when I couldn't make it through more than a third of my rewatch of Wing, so its definitely better than that by some margin. My biggest beef can be boiled down to the fact that any antagonist character is handled like poo poo and are entirely uninteresting. Ennil's motivation for stalking Garrod originally and any character progression she makes seems contrived. The Frost brothers are completely flat and devoid of any personality through the entire series, and then the reveal of whole motivation is straight up jaw droppingly stupid (though if it was handled a little better I thought it could have at least tied a lot better into the rest of the events at the end of the show). The New Federation and Space Rebellion leaders are both bland conglomerates of every other earth and space leader. The whole New Federation boardroom is geezers, practically Gundam short hand for villain. I actually came around to like the mayor from the earlier episodes a lot more just in comparison to how the rest of the show pans out. My other complaints include the show not really doing much with the post apocalyptic setting and half of the action scenes being rather dull. For every good couple of sequences, it felt like there was at least ten minutes of Gundams just dumping ammo in all directions and not hitting anything. I guess that got better as the show went on. But, yeah, I'll concede the robot designs are all right, I really liked the X Divider, and most of the protagonist cast are likable. There are some legitmately really good moments like Garrod holding the Colony Laser hostage. I actually would have liked it if the show had been able to make its full run, because I was kinda interested in Lanzlow and what they could have done with him might have been pretty cool.
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Dec 10, 2013 08:03
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Not Dave posted:The Frost brothers are completely flat and devoid of any personality through the entire series, and then the reveal of whole motivation is straight up jaw droppingly stupid While I agree it's not the most interesting thing to watch, it is sort of the point. The Frost Brothers are built up as having this really big thing driving them, but really they're just petty as gently caress. Garrod is supposed to be mirroring the audience's reaction when he beats the poo poo out of them for just how pathetic their motivation is. More than that, the entire thing about the Frost Brothers is that they perfectly fit into the show's themes. They have a power that absolutely no other Newtype ever has had, and use it to great effect; they're not some of the top ranking members in the new Earth Federation for nothing after all. But because they weren't true Newtypes, because they couldn't use either the Satellite or the Flash systems, they're treated like junk. They are literally labeled Failures and everybody who knows that never ceases to rub it in their faces. This pisses them off and drives every last thing they do. They dwell on their past so much that they can never truly develop as characters (they straight up refused to go to DOME, even though he basically agreed with them on the "gently caress Newtypes" front) until Garrod beats it into them to stop being so loving petty. Meanwhile, I dunno how you came to that conclusion about the New Federation and the Space Rebellion since their entire point is to provide two wildly differing views on Newtypes. No other Gundam show really does that, usually you just get Opinions On War or generic evil. A lot of the action scenes were pretty bad though, yeah. Kind of a shame since again the designs were so cool. EDIT: tl;dr i really love gundam x guys BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 08:16 on Dec 10, 2013 |
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Dec 10, 2013 08:11
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Yeah, after I finished watching and sat on it a little, the Frost brother's whole thing isn't inherently stupid or bad. It's just such a shock that it's built up so much to be straight up pettiness, especially considering the lengths they have gone through to get there, but hey maybe that was what they were going for. I just don't think it was a terribly entertaining or good route to go. Like I said, if the moment of the reveal was handled better, I think it could have been tied a lot better into DOME's thing. But for the time between that and when everyone else meets DOME, it looks pretty bad. I don't think I'm imagining it, but the idea that the Earth faction sees Newtypes purely as tools and the Space faction sees Newtypes as the way to the future seems like it's cropped up in Gundam before this, but maybe I'm being confused by something that came after it. Either way they both boil down to dehumanizing Newtypes (treating them as gods still counts as dehumanizing, right? There's probably a better wrod that I can't think of), which is what DOME points out, right? They're both different opinions that are both told to be ultimately wrong, and that's about all the purpose they seem to serve. I guess that's giving them a bit more credit, but that doesn't make them really any better. But I really like V Gundam so I can't condemn anyone's taste in gundams!
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Dec 10, 2013 08:38
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Not Dave posted:Yeah, after I finished watching and sat on it a little, the Frost brother's whole thing isn't inherently stupid or bad. It's just such a shock that it's built up so much to be straight up pettiness, especially considering the lengths they have gone through to get there, but hey maybe that was what they were going for. I just don't think it was a terribly entertaining or good route to go. Like I said, if the moment of the reveal was handled better, I think it could have been tied a lot better into DOME's thing. But for the time between that and when everyone else meets DOME, it looks pretty bad. Man, I've unironically defended the supporting cast and setting of SEED. You can like V Gundam. It's ok.Speaking of, so seeing as my six hour bus ride draws near I'm strapping in to finish Turn A. I've got Victory downloaded and was debating starting it after. Should I wait because of mood whiplash or just roll with it?
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Dec 10, 2013 08:49
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ManSeriesBrofist posted:Man, I've unironically defended the supporting cast and setting of SEED. You can like V Gundam. It's ok.Speaking of, so seeing as my six hour bus ride draws near I'm strapping in to finish Turn A. I've got Victory downloaded and was debating starting it after. Should I wait because of mood whiplash or just roll with it? Liking a bad show has helped me be less of a dick about other people's tastes. I am about to start Turn A myself, so I can't comment on that, but I don't recall the start of V being too terribly dark in comparison to the other end of the show. It's like ZZ in that it's not that it's tonally dissonant from other Gundams so much as the mood whiplash within the show itself is pretty harsh. The only thing of note for the start for V Gundam is that Episode 1 actually takes place after Episode 4. So unless you don't mind starting off with a really pointless in media res and flashback, you can go 2>3>4>1>5 and just carry on there.
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Dec 10, 2013 08:59
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Not Dave posted:Liking a bad show has helped me be less of a dick about other people's tastes. I am about to start Turn A myself, so I can't comment on that, but I don't recall the start of V being too terribly dark in comparison to the other end of the show. It's like ZZ in that it's not that it's tonally dissonant from other Gundams so much as the mood whiplash within the show itself is pretty harsh. The only thing of note for the start for V Gundam is that Episode 1 actually takes place after Episode 4. So unless you don't mind starting off with a really pointless in media res and flashback, you can go 2>3>4>1>5 and just carry on there. I may actually take that order. Much appreciated.
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Dec 10, 2013 09:00
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Not Dave posted:Yeah, after I finished watching and sat on it a little, the Frost brother's whole thing isn't inherently stupid or bad. This idea goes all the way back to 0079. It's kind of the core of the concept.
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Dec 10, 2013 11:39
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As usual SRW makes Gundam AUs better by virtue of crossover. The Frost Brothers are much better justified in Z where it is revealed they come from an alternate future where the Destiny Plan succeeded. It is pretty cool to see an example of how hosed up the Destiny Plan really is. And to have antagonists that actually hate other antagonists.Caros posted:You might want to take a gook at a locally designed game: Giant Guardian Generation It's cool, I don't see criticism as a slight. If you'd like to elaborate, I'd love to hear your opinion in the thread.
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Dec 10, 2013 13:46
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AzraelNewtype posted:This idea goes all the way back to 0079. It's kind of the core of the concept. Not really. It's the core of Deikun's philosophy, but he's already dead and Degwin doesn't really give a poo poo. Neither do the Feds. It's kind of hard to since at that point the only known Newtype was Lalah. All the shows after that focus more on how both sides pervert the potential of Newtypes into living weapons of war than how they should be treated. X directly focuses on the Oldtypes' anger at being labeled outdated (much like the Frost Brothers getting pissed off they were Category F!) and how the spacenoids thought themselves to be superior just because they were in space and thus had the possibility of being Newtypes, a conceit that Tiffa completely fucks up just by existing. More than that, Rasso (leader of the Space Revolutionary Army) gets a little more focus than his counterpart, so we get to see that he's super bitter that for all of his belief in the concept he's not actually a Newtype. Pretty far cry from Deikun, who was so confident in Newtypes he wrote into the constitution that they should be treated better than Oldtypes! I guess you could reduce it to being the usual Gundam tropes if you wanted to, but it's really not.
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Dec 10, 2013 17:21
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 Fins! Lots of Fins! That's something that's bothered me about the RX-0 design from the start, it just seems so eye-wateringly busy, and not necessarily in a good way. The more recent PG kits (the 00 in particular) have this same problem, adding zillions of facets that don't really do anything except detract from the overall design.
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Dec 10, 2013 19:37
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Don't look at the RX-0 Unit 3 Phenex then, it's got 2 of those things stuck on it and it's in eye searing gold. The blue psychoframe is a nice touch but it's not worth Akatsuki levels of lens flare.
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Dec 10, 2013 21:39
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I think a lot of people agree that Unicorn mode looks a lot better than Destroy mode. Unicorn's "throw in all the crap" upgrade philosophy doesn't help.
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Dec 10, 2013 21:48
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BlitzBlast posted:I think a lot of people agree that Unicorn mode looks a lot better than Destroy mode. I actually like Full Armor Unicorn Gundam in Destroy Mode, but even Unit 03 Phoenix looks retarded to me. The fact that it's getting a retail Master Grade release baffles me.
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Dec 10, 2013 21:51
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BlitzBlast posted:I think a lot of people agree that Unicorn mode looks a lot better than Destroy mode. The only time I really like Destroy mode is when it turns green and even then I still kinda prefer it in Unicorn mode, if for no other reason because it's incredibly simple.
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Dec 10, 2013 23:50
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After a week of watching a better anime with a friend, I'm back to SEED Destiny. THe recap episode on the previous series only reminds me of how much the central conflict makes no sense. If Coordinators really existed, they wouldn't be the plucky underling fighting the racist Earth government. The elites of the world would embrace Coordinators, while the poor would have to remain Naturals. This would probably lead to even worse unequality than today, and the conflict that would result would be a lot grayer. Instead, people hate Coordinators for no reason and we are supposed to cheer when the Overmen win this horribly one-sided conflict.
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Dec 11, 2013 03:15
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MonsieurChoc posted:After a week of watching a better anime with a friend, I'm back to SEED Destiny. THe recap episode on the previous series only reminds me of how much the central conflict makes no sense. If Coordinators really existed, they wouldn't be the plucky underling fighting the racist Earth government. The elites of the world would embrace Coordinators, while the poor would have to remain Naturals. This would probably lead to even worse unequality than today, and the conflict that would result would be a lot grayer. Instead, people hate Coordinators for no reason and we are supposed to cheer when the Overmen win this horribly one-sided conflict. The elites did embrace Coordinators. The ones that didn't were apparently people who objected on religious/personal ('that poo poo is unnatural') grounds. There was just enough blowback from people who couldn't or wouldn't get modified that it split the rich between rich assholes who were able and willing to modify their children and rich assholes who were the future equivalent of bible thumpers. One of the SEED clipshows covers it. (Maybe only in the HD/movie version, hell if I can remember what was added/removed.) It's one of the few things in the setting that makes some sense in that you'd have a bunch of assholes in their magic sky castles and then another bunch of assholes who hate those assholes. Of course being SEED they hate them in the "shoot them with nuclear missiles" way because Gundam SEED. Also there's Orb which is magical and perfect. Of course, as you said, it ends up being "Coordinators are great" because whatever the gently caress Gundam SEED. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 03:18
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It was probably supposed to be dramatic, but I burst out laughing when I watched the origin of the Coordinator hatefest. "People of Earth, I, a man who excels in numerous sports and have like 60 PhDs, am a product of genetic engineering! And your children can be just like me! Here, let me give you all the information you'll need." "KILL THEM ALL" I mean yeah, genetic engineering is an actual thing people in real life are worrying about, but I'm pretty sure nobody would actually go on a genocidal slaughter over it!
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Dec 11, 2013 03:44
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BlitzBlast posted:I mean yeah, genetic engineering is an actual thing people in real life are worrying about, but I'm pretty sure nobody would actually go on a genocidal slaughter over it! Man, people kill each other over where you put your penis or the color of your skin. It's not hard for me to buy that we'd have people killing each other over breaking the rules of nature. There have been way better stories than Gundam SEED that tackle that kind of stuff.
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Dec 11, 2013 03:55
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BlitzBlast posted:It was probably supposed to be dramatic, but I burst out laughing when I watched the origin of the Coordinator hatefest. Really? You don't see how irrational people might get pretty crazy and genocidal about genetically engineered supermen? I mean Azreal is the poster child for why people would end up that way. He goes to an expensive school that he attends with other children who have been genetically engineered to be flat out better than him. They more or less trounce him and beat him at everything leaving him with major feelings of inferiority, which is then coupled with the fact that his mother finds coordinators to be 'monsters'. And that is before taking into account the fact that it would almost certainly be the rich and the powerful who ended up with the first few generations of coordinators unless the technology was insanely cheap. And also before you factor in religion. Jealousy is a real human emotion, and when you can direct that jealousy at a specific group of people, is it any wonder that there start being hate groups and attacks against these 'superior' people?
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Dec 11, 2013 03:56
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Hate groups are one thing, but massive, institutionalized violence (all coordinators everywhere are hunted down with seemingly no repercussion, to the point a ton of them just run off planet) is another. Pretty much the entire world just suddenly rises up against the Coordinators for basically the flimsiest of reasons, unless we're supposed to assume the Common Era has never had any sort of social conflict whatsoever and thus nothing to put the Coordinator "menace" into perspective. For crying out loud, they kill a musician. Even pre-Civil Rights America at least appreciated Harlem. EDIT: Basically the issue isn't what happens, it's how SEED decides to handle it. Which is pretty much the norm for SEED, huh. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 04:07
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BlitzBlast posted:It was probably supposed to be dramatic, but I burst out laughing when I watched the origin of the Coordinator hatefest. Even ignoring differing belief systems like religious objection to fuckery with human genetics, it's really easy to understand a certain level of raw primal fear and antagonism towards the introduction of genetic-level inequality. Humanity has been oppressing, killing, and outright committing genocide on each other over perceived but fictitious inequalities for thousands of years. What would happen if that inequality and difference suddenly became actual and there was a literal, factual class of superior ubermensch?  The concept that the have-nots would be really, really pissed, anxious, scared, and violent about being left in the dust is the default state of affairs, not a weird turn of events.
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Dec 11, 2013 04:11
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Yeah, but they'd be the have nots. That was my point. In SEED, all of Earth except Orb has been taken by religious extremists who hate all Coordinators, just so they can be the underdogs in their sky castles.
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Dec 11, 2013 04:14
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Kanos posted:What would happen if that inequality and difference suddenly became actual and there was a literal, factual class of superior ubermensch? Well considering Coordination is supposed to be available to everyone in CE, probably not what actually happened in the show. Sure some people would oppose it on ethical/moral grounds, but I'm pretty sure just as many others would be all for it. There'd likely be numerous discussions, maybe some violence (because there are always going to be shitheads), but ultimately the odds of "kill loving everyone" being the solution are rather low. I mean if you think otherwise sure, but unless CE had like the cleanest history ever the idea that public, international genocide would not almost immediately be cracked down on is frankly ridiculous. Genetic engineering and human society are very complex issues that SEED does absolutely no justice with its idiotically evil Naturals or its ridiculously pure and just Coordinators. I know, I can't believe SEED hosed something up either. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 04:25
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I'm 31 episodes into Turn A Gundam. I'm still really invested in the show and I like the characters and plot, but it is starting a drag a bit in the middle (although Phil and Pou's little uprising is interesting). Right now I just want them to get the Willgem into space and move things along a bit. I'm beginning to wonder when Gym Ghingham, the Turn X and those various other moonrace characters and mobile suits show up now that we're past the halfway point. Also, it's odd that the opening hasn't changed yet, and doesn't seem to change until the last 10 or so episodes. They're not going to rush all this stuff at the end, are they? Also Harry Ord is like the coolest dude ever.
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Dec 11, 2013 04:33
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BlitzBlast posted:Well considering Coordination is supposed to be available to everyone in CE, probably not what actually happened in the show. Sure some people would oppose it on ethical/moral grounds, but I'm pretty sure just as many others would be all for it. There'd likely be numerous discussions, maybe some violence (because there are always going to be shitheads), but ultimately the odds of "kill loving everyone" being the solution are rather low. I mean if you think otherwise sure, but unless CE had like the cleanest history ever the idea that public, international genocide would not almost immediately be cracked down on is frankly ridiculous. Genetic engineering and human society are very complex issues that SEED does absolutely no justice with its idiotically evil Naturals or its ridiculously pure and just Coordinators. Not all coordinators are portrayed as pure and just, in fact a massive number of them are portrayed as hosed up genocidal assholes. The final duel of SEED wasn't Kira vs some Earth Federation pilot, it was Kira vs. a genetically engineered clone that wanted to end all human life. Honestly what happens in SEED isn't hard to believe, though it is left vague. Rich people start engineering their kids. This leads to a general popular uprising against the actual elites as people realize that there is now an entirely new race being born that will eclipse theirs. This probably happens when 'coordination' is expensive. Governments get overthrown, and you probably end up with a bunch of fascist/'democratic' governments that pass increasingly brutal anti-coordinator laws. The rich and the powerful start moving to the colonies in the ultimate form of the gated community. Time passes, the PLANTS start showing how much better they are than the naturals of earth (who have probably banned genetic engineeering by this point.) The federation, comprised of fascist, racist assholes start a shooting war with the PLANTS because they hate coordinators and/or realize that the assholes in the PLANTS will probably shoot first eventually to take back earth. Edit: I REALLY need to go back and watch turn A at some point. I watched it years ago and just hated it, but goons seem to love it so much that it just confuses me. 
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Dec 11, 2013 04:44
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Instead pf watching the next episode of SEED Destiny, I watched Stargazer. Holy poo poo. Something good can be made in the Cosmic Era. Was it made by a different team or something?
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Dec 11, 2013 04:48
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I was mostly referring to Kira, Athrun and Lacus when I said ridiculously pure and just coordinators, but the show does go to great extents to portray the coordinators as the victims of the  Naturals. I mean when your genocide is almost entirely in the background or in side material while the other side's atrocities are all clearly shown, something's gone wrong.And man, I don't really know what to say if you find what happens in SEED at all plausible. I guess I'm just less cynical about humanity in the modern age? I dunno, there's not much else we can really talk about with regards to how humanity would react to coordination. MonsieurChoc posted:Instead pf watching the next episode of SEED Destiny, I watched Stargazer. Holy poo poo. Something good can be made in the Cosmic Era. Was it made by a different team or something? Yep.
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Dec 11, 2013 04:50
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BlitzBlast posted:Well considering Coordination is supposed to be available to everyone in CE, probably not what actually happened in the show. Sure some people would oppose it on ethical/moral grounds, but I'm pretty sure just as many others would be all for it. There'd likely be numerous discussions, maybe some violence (because there are always going to be shitheads), but ultimately the odds of "kill loving everyone" being the solution are rather low. I mean if you think otherwise sure, but unless CE had like the cleanest history ever the idea that public, international genocide would not almost immediately be cracked down on is frankly ridiculous. Genetic engineering and human society are very complex issues that SEED does absolutely no justice with its idiotically evil Naturals or its ridiculously pure and just Coordinators. Coordinator enhancement is something that happens to babies in the womb, so what happens about people born before coordination became available? What about the kids whose parents opposed coordination so were born natural and they didn't have a choice in the matter? What about the people who lived in places that lacked advanced enough facilities for invasive medical alteration of babies in the womb? There's a whole lot of room for people to be proverbially left behind. It also doesn't help that coordinators apparently decided to take their ball and go home and move to magical flying space castles where only Truly Superior Humans lived, thus making it super duper easy for hateful, bitter idiots left on earth to otherize the gently caress out of them and whip otherwise reasonable people into a frothing frenzy. It doesn't take a true consensus for a big preemptive strike to be launched by an overzealous military commander or politician, and then the Coordinators in their self-defense cement the hatred by completely destroying the Earth's infrastructure with N-Jammers. SEED has an incredible shitload of crippling problems but a genocidal level Natural-Coordinator conflict is one of the least stupid/unbelievable things about the Cosmic Era plotline.
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Dec 11, 2013 04:50
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BlitzBlast posted:And man, I don't really know what to say if you find what happens in SEED at all plausible. I guess I'm just less cynical about humanity in the modern age? I dunno, there's not much else we can really talk about with regards to how humanity would react to coordination. There is tons upons tons of atrocities committed against people for far less tangible reasons. There was a musician murdered earlier this year for being gay, just to use a counterpoint to the "they killed a pianist" thing. Gundam SEED doesn't handle the subject well but the idea that there were be horrific oppression and spite against genetically altered human beings is not outside of the realm of possibility at all. (And as I said, there are plenty of other science fiction stories which handle the subject matter less stupidly.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 04:53
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Kanos posted:Coordinator enhancement is something that happens to babies in the womb, so what happens about people born before coordination became available? Every new generation has more things available to them that the last didn't, whether it be education, advances in medical science, or even entertainment. You might notice that the world hasn't risen in uprising at those crazy new superhumans who don't die to once deadly diseases. quote:What about the kids whose parents opposed coordination so were born natural and they didn't have a choice in the matter? Personally speaking I'm not particularly jealous that there are people in the world who are smarter/stronger than me, but whatever. People are inequal. That has always been the case and coordination doesn't just suddenly make it an issue. quote:What about the people who lived in places that lacked advanced enough facilities for invasive medical alteration of babies in the womb? Man have you looked at the real world? Some places are poorer than others. Not coincidentally, the people in those places are less healthy than the richer countries. Now maybe there's a secret real life Blue Cosmos in some African nation seeking the death of all first world people everywhere, but I think we both agree that's kind of silly and not at all indicative of all third world countries? quote:It also doesn't help that coordinators apparently decided to take their ball and go home and move to magical flying space castles Nope. The Plants were originally developed as research colonies. It was only after the anti-Coordinator frenzy started that people started really living there. ImpAtom posted:There is tons upons tons of atrocities committed against people for far less tangible reasons. There was a musician murdered earlier this year for being gay, just to use a counterpoint to the "they killed a pianist" thing. Man I knew I was going to regret trying to throw that in as a joke. But yeah, once again the issue isn't that genetic engineering led to conflict. The issue is how SEED handles it, with ridiculous strawmen on both sides, absolutely no thought put into how it would actually go down in a modern world, and even less thought put into the scale of the conflict. EDIT: And it wouldn't have even been that hard to make it plausible it either. Throw in some worldwide threat (economic depression, mysterious disease, etc) and have someone pin it on the coordinators. That would build off whatever existing unease there might have been, and could eventually ramp up into the hysteria shown. That's a hell of a lot more realistic than "Coordinators exist > Everyone hates coordinators", unless the entirety of CE Earth is made up of shitheads. Which it is, but details. EDIT 2: Actually wait, I think I recall a disease like I'm proposing actually happening somewhere in the SEED background materials. God drat it SEED, you had a perfectly reasonable explanation and never showed it. 
BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 05:03
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BlitzBlast posted:Personally speaking I'm not particularly jealous that there are people in the world who are smarter/stronger than me, but whatever. People are inequal. That has always been the case and coordination doesn't just suddenly make it an issue. You know, I guess I'll give you credit for genuinely not understanding on a basic level why other people would want to murder an entire race of people, but we've put forward a pretty substantial number of reasons. I suppose I'll just focus on these points. Have YOU looked at the real world? There was a genocide in the recent memory of people I've personally met for no other reason than because those people were somehow racially 'different' than other people. People hated the Jews ostensibly because they were 'inferior' or because they believed that Jewish people didn't work for their money and instead manipulated world finance. In MY living memory we have had genocides of ethnic peoples for probably a dozen different reasons. Yet you find it hard to believe that a large portion of the world would not get upset, perhaps violently so at the prospect of a new race of humans that are simply better than them. Keep in mind that coordinators as they are portrayed aren't just a few perks here and there. They are faster, stronger, more resistant than you physically. They are smarter, more innovative and more or less just better than you in every way. Add on that the first groups of people who receive this procedure are certainly going to be the richest and most elite? That is a boiling point for racism, fascism and genocide. Human beings have killed one another for way simpler reasons than "You were born better than me in every way shape and form and I hate you for it."
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Dec 11, 2013 05:22
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BlitzBlast posted:Every new generation has more things available to them that the last didn't, whether it be education, advances in medical science, or even entertainment. You might notice that the world hasn't risen in uprising at those crazy new superhumans who don't die to once deadly diseases. There's a fundamental difference between a good or service that you can theoretically acquire at some point in your lifetime and fundamental alteration on the genetic level. The latter is more equivalent to being born as a certain race or sexual orientation than not being able to get a vaccine or buy an HDTV. If you didn't get coordinated in the womb, eat poo poo, you don't get to be perfect in every way. You will always be fundamentally inferior, no matter what, based on biology. While you might be reasonable about the concept that by chance of birth you are automatically kind of hosed, well, we live in a world where as ImpAtom says people kill each other on insane scales for putting penises into butts or believing in different religions or identifying with different tribal groups. What happens when you create a new fundamental division that is rooted in actual undeniable fact and one side is clearly and blatantly inferior to the other? Most undeveloped or developing countries don't rise up and throw off the shackles of their oppressors because they're often economically dirt poor and commonly under the dominion of corrupt autocrats who keep the country poor and ignorant in order to facilitate their continued rule, not because the people who live there are really happy not having clean water, watching their children die of malnutrition, or working in a diamond mine at gunpoint to buy a diamond company executive a new BMW. Given a unified world government that said "If we just kill <x>, the problems will go away", you bet your rear end a non-trivial amount of the poor and downtrodden would go "well, can't be worse than dying of dengue". It doesn't really matter what the PLANTs were originally developed as, they became a gated community of genetically altered Superior Humans to segregate themselves from naturals. The problem with minorities insulating themselves from an unfriendly or hostile majority is that while in the short run it's much safer and more pleasant for the minority, in the long run it makes it easier for the particularly hostile and hateful members of that majority to otherize you and turn you into such a boogeyman that even normal reasonable people start to believe the stories they heard. To use another real life example, gay people in the United States aren't gaining increasing acceptance by secluding themselves into Gay Only Enclaves, they get themselves out there and show people that they're the same as you and me so what's the point of hating them?
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Dec 11, 2013 05:23
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I'm kind of tempted to read through both of those posts and respond, but I've already realized that SEED actually did have a pretty good reason for the abrupt anti-Coordination hysteria and just didn't focus on it at all because the writers really sucked. Which was the original point I was laughing at, and not "is genetic engineering breeding conflict unrealistic". Not really sure why I tried getting into that argument here, I apologize for that.
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Dec 11, 2013 05:27
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Gammatron 64 posted:I'm 31 episodes into Turn A Gundam. I'm still really invested in the show and I like the characters and plot, but it is starting a drag a bit in the middle (although Phil and Pou's little uprising is interesting). Right now I just want them to get the Willgem into space and move things along a bit. I'm beginning to wonder when Gym Ghingham, the Turn X and those various other moonrace characters and mobile suits show up now that we're past the halfway point. Also, it's odd that the opening hasn't changed yet, and doesn't seem to change until the last 10 or so episodes. They're not going to rush all this stuff at the end, are they? It's not rushed, it's perfect. It's about to pick up again and it just won't stop until the end.
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Dec 11, 2013 06:51
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Raku posted:It's not rushed, it's perfect. It's about to pick up again and it just won't stop until the end. Ok, that's good to know. I was worried that Gym and those guys were going to be a last minute thing. Not a lot of people have died yet, too. Teteh, Gavane Goony and uh... Sochie and Kihel's dad died. That... might be a first for "Kill 'em all" Tomino. I wouldn't mind seeing Pou get blown up, though. I think it's safe to say that she's this show's Jerid Messa, but even worse at life. (Not that I dislike Jerid, he's just a comically ineffectual villain.)
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Dec 11, 2013 14:52
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