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Magrov posted:When are you going there? Great post, very comprehensive. Basically, you're poo poo out of luck in the north, although the Pará state tournament seems like a blast to watch. Plenty interesting teams, such as the RE-PA duo. It must be amazing to watch a derby at the Mangueirão. There is also a professional indian team, Gavião Kyikatejê, recently promoted to the top flight in Pará. TUNA LUSO BRASILEIRA is a fantastic name for anything, almost a Brazilian Crystal Palace (but not the one in Petrópolis). Their state league is beginning right now, for some insane reason. You'll definitely enjoy the northeast as previously stated. If you're not concerned about media-heavy teams, you're bound to find memorable teams.
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Dec 10, 2013 18:28
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Dias posted:Can we agree that the 90s were shady as gently caress when it came to weird out-of-nowhere promotions and not-relegations? I don't think there was a bias, it's just that the CBF was even more corrupt and insane than it is right now. Even when Grêmio came back in 1993, it was this weird thing where they went "you know what, EVERYONE IS PROMOTED gently caress IT gently caress THE SÉRIE B" and I can't tell how much of that was just to save Grêmio because drat that's a bizarre move. I guess not only the 90s, huh? For those of you not following the Brazilian league: Fluminense is likely to avoid playing the second division due to extra-field maneuvers (the third time Flu would avoid serie B in about 17 years due to extra field crap). Why? Apparently Portuguesa, a tiny team from Sao Paulo, used a player that was suspended in their last match, which would make them lose just enough points to fall behind Flu. And the circumstances for that are shady as gently caress, for the surprise of no one: - Heverton, Portuguesa's midfielder, went to judgement on friday. Portuguesa's lawyer claimed that he was suspended just for the one game that he had already served, so he played on sunday. On monday, Portuguesa got an official notification that Heverton had been suspended. The fact that portuguesa only got the official word after the game shouldn't matter, claims the representative for the Brazilian sports justice court (pre-judging the case before it even came up to him), because they had a lawyer present on friday (who, again, told portuguesa the punishment was only 1 game, already served, not 2). To make matters worse, Portuguesa's lawyer wasn't actually hired by Portuguesa, but appointed by CBF. But I guess it is only a massive coincidence that it is Flu again that will likely avoid relegation based on that, huh?
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Dec 11, 2013 17:07
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joepinetree posted:I guess not only the 90s, huh? This is shady as hell, are Portuguesa going to throw a fit like they should?
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Dec 11, 2013 17:10
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Publicly, they are. But they are also a tiny team with no fans (by far lowest attendance of any 1st division team), so some of the bigger sports writers have even suggested that maybe it wasn't stupidity on the lawyer's part, but corruption. Of course, Vasco is also trying its shady stuff by claiming that they should get the points of their game against Atletico Paranaense because of the fight in the stands, though that is a bit less likely to happen.
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Dec 11, 2013 17:23
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joepinetree posted:I guess not only the 90s, huh? I doubt they're gonna take points from Portuguesa based on that, honestly. I'm too lazy to find examples, but that's not the first time in recent years someone tried that same manuever after getting relegated. It doesn't tend to stick, even if Fluminense is a fair bit bigger than the clubs that usually try doing that. However, if it works, gently caress Fluminense and CBF.
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Dec 11, 2013 17:33
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Flamengo also is threatened with the loss of 4 points, for playing André Santos vs Cruzeiro. So, if both Portuguesa and Flamengo loses the 4 points, and Vasco somehow manages to win his litigation and gets the 3 points of the Atlético-PR match, not only Fluminense is saved from relegation, but also Flamengo ends up in its place. That would be GLORIOUS, if shady as gently caress. Warning: huge slightly biased but not really wall of text about legal technicalities below. About the Portuguesa case, conspiracy theories apart, if it is confirmed that the ban length was really 2 games, it looks like a huge blunder of Portuguesa legal department. The lawyer appointed by Portuguesa to represent them in the ban appeal proceedings apparently miscommunicated the length of the ban to the legal department, and they never double checked with CBF if the player was apt or not. It's possible that the whole mess was caused by a typo in the published decision and the ban was in fact only a 1-match ban. In this case the player was apt to play sunday and nothing happens to Portuguesa. I think Portuguesa has already requested the audio recording of the appeal session. However, if the player really got a 2 match ban, there's very little Portuguesa can do to avoid losing those 4 points, unless they can prove that the lawyer was bribed by Fluminense/CBF to gently caress up with Portuguesa. The case is cristal clear: a player banned during a friday session is ineligible to play on a sunday match, and the penalty in this case is loss of 3 points, plus loss of the points obtained in the match plus fine. There's lots of precedent for this case. In 2010, the exact same case - a player from Grêmio Prudente got banned on a friday night and played on sunday, and the team lost 3 points. Every team had players banned on late friday night court sessions and they either served the ban on the following weekend or filed an appeal. Portuguesa did neither. In Flamengo's case, André got the red card in the Copa do Brasil final, and did not play in the following game of the Série A, vs Vitória. However, since those are different competitions, the 1-match ban is not automatic, and therefore the vitória match he sitted out does not count for the ban, and he was not apt to play agains Cruzeiro, the 1st match after the ban appeal trial. The case here is less clear cut because it involved different competitions and André served his ban, abeit on a match he wasn't supposed to. Strictly legally speaking they should lose the points, and is also a huge blunder of the legal department, even if they manage to avoid the penalty. The Vasco case is the most controversial. The game was interrupted for 73 minutes, while the rules says that games must be suspended after 60 minutes of interruption. I couldn't find the affidavit they filed so I don't know exactly what they are asking for, but it can be either a rematch or a forfeit in their favor, since the match was interrupted by a huge fight in the stands and they were the away team. The problem for Vasco here is that the game was not suspended, so there's absolutely no chance of a forfeit. And the 60 minutes limit stated by the rules are about suspending the match. This paragraph of the rules is really really really badly written, because it states that the match might be suspended after 60 minutes, and not must be" or will be, so if this 60 minutes limit is really a hard limit is up for interpretation. The question here is: was the match automagically suspended after 60 minutes even if it resumed after 73 minutes? Vasco's case is further hindered by the fact that they accepted to resume playing after 73 minutes without formal protest. tl;dr, my slightly biased opinion is that if the ban really was a 2-match ban Portuguesa probably will lose 4 points, Flamengo will be found guilty but not lose points because the judges will accept the argument that the ban was served on the previous match, Vasco probably will have his appeal rejected, and even if the court accept their claims, the most they can possibly get is a rematch, and the lizard people will continue to exert their evil influence over brazillian football. Also, a lot of misinformation going around because no one was formally accused of anything yet. Personally, I'd relegate all of them including Atlético-PR. Magrov fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 19:22
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Can we relegate Internacional too somehow? I dunno, there's gotta be a way.
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Dec 11, 2013 19:27
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So unrelated to the shady dealings of post-championship relegations, did Pato really win the equivalent of "biggest flop" of the year? I read on an Italian website that he won the Brazilian equivalent of the Bidone d'Oro.
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Dec 11, 2013 19:34
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Speaking of shady dealings: Peñarol, some other poo poo clubs from Uruguay and Peru and the Football Players Union from Uruguay are threatening CONMEBOL with legal action for refusing to take into consideration an offer for Copa Libertadores TV rights presented by Global Sports. Global Sports is owned by Francisco "Paco" Casal, who also owns Uruguay. They claim the offer is much higher than the one presented by Fox Sports and CONMEBOL is refusing to even consider it (because they are in bed with FS and Argentinean TyC Sports). Curious thing is that the Uruguayan teams involved in this owe Casal a LOT of money and Peñarol is going to build a stadium thanks to Casal's money. Casal also owns TV rights for Peruvian and Uruguayan tournaments. Peñarol is now fearing they might not be allowed to participate in the next Copa Libertadores because of this. FIFA also doesn't like when justice gets involved in it's business so they might do something to the Uruguayan FA too.
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Dec 11, 2013 19:41
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The precedent goes both ways. Cruzeiro was algo found guilty of having an irregular player on its bench (for contract reasons, but the clause that deals with the penalty for that is the same), but it was only fined, instead of losing any points (though now Schmitt has decided to appeal that decision). Not to mention that the lawyer who relayed the false information to Portuguesa is appointed by CBF and has defended Fluminense as recently as november 28th. It is, of course, all a big scam. The idea that a lawyer would mistakenly tell a club the result of a sentence, with the paper trail only coming the day after the game, is a big joke. The attorney general for the Brazilian sports court is already saying that Portuguesa must be punished, even though the case hasn't even be officially brought up yet. Gigi Galli posted:So unrelated to the shady dealings of post-championship relegations, did Pato really win the equivalent of "biggest flop" of the year? I read on an Italian website that he won the Brazilian equivalent of the Bidone d'Oro. There is no official "award," but a number of publications have put him in their worst signings list.
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Dec 11, 2013 21:12
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joepinetree posted:The precedent goes both ways. Cruzeiro was algo found guilty of having an irregular player on its bench (for contract reasons, but the clause that deals with the penalty for that is the same), but it was only fined, instead of losing any points (though now Schmitt has decided to appeal that decision). I'll only answer you post for the sake of relaying the correct information. 1 - The Cruzeiro case is slightly different. One of their player's contract expired, and it was renewed. For some reason nobody really know yet, the new contract was not properly forwarded to CBF by the state federation. The case was judged friday morning, and Cruzeiro was only fined R$ 10,000.00. The court accepted Cruzeiro's argument that the player had a valid contract on the match day, and that the problem was caused by a technical issue in the federation's records. Either way, the attorney general is appealing against this decision (yes, only now, because the trial was friday) and Cruzeiro might still lose points and/or receive a larger fine. 2 - The lawyer in question claims that he told the correct information to Portuguesa (obviously because he wants to save his rear end, and the Portuguesa legal department has thrown him under the bus). He has represented over 30 clubs of every size and division in trials this year. He's one of the go to examples of CBF corruption: Every club needs a representative in every trial. These trials are irregularly scheduled, because the sport judges have actual jobs as actual real judges, so it's hard for the clubs to know exactly when their trials is going to happen, but usually the clubs are notified in short notice. So, instead of having a full legal team on the clock ready to travel to Rio de Janeiro to attend the trials, many clubs opt for hiring a local lawyer. Conveniently, this guy is "oficially" recommended by CBF, and CBF even "pay" his legal fees, charging the clubs afterwards. So yes, this lawyer has quite a nifty scheme as the "official" CBF lawyer. I wonder how much money would take to make this guy royally screw his career, and why Fluminense spend all this cash buying referees and mercenary lawyers instead of using it to build up a squad. 3 - The idea that the paper trail only comes on the day after the game might offend your sense of justice (and logic), but is the usual procedure. The court decisions are private matters between the club and the confederation, so no publicity is really needed for the decision to be valid if the club representative is notified. Football matches are frequently scheduled for holidays and weekends, so it's only natural that any decision taken by the courts on a friday night will only be published monday. Every club knows that any punishment starts counting from the day following the trial (and an aquittance (acquittance? absolvition? absolution?) is immediately valid). Even 4th division clubs know that a player is suspendend the day ater the trial, regardless of any written notification. 4 - The attorney general (Schmidt) has competence to make accusations. It's their job. He doesn't need notification from any club to do anything. 5 - Lastly, but not least: All of this is legal opinion based on what's being published on the media. However, it is possible that the case is dismissed by the court or that the penalty is converted into a fine or something. There is still a non-zero chance that nothing will happen and Fluminense and Vasco are relegated. Magrov fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 22:19
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How is that different from what I said? Cruzeiro was accused under the exact same article of the Brazilian sports legislation: article 214. I doubt that even if Portuguesa is punished anything will happen with the lawyer. And the issue with Schmitt isn't whether he has the powers to make accusations. But the ridiculous statements that he has publicly made about how if Portuguesa isn't punished it would destroy the image of STJD. I mean, are you seriously going to try to defend this crap? joepinetree fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 22:32
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joepinetree posted:You didn't correct anything. Sure, art. 214 is about the punishment, but the reason cruzeiro was accused under this article was different than the reason protuguesa was. Cruzeiro fielded a player inelegible due to an irregular contract, Portuguesa fielded a player inelegible due to a red card ban. There is a little wiggle room about the contract being irregular or not. There's no wiglle room about a 2-game red card suspension. About defendind this crap? Yes. There is a 73 page sport justice processual codex. This codex and the STJD exist exactly to prevent common justice litigation from interfering with the tournments, like in 2000, or 1997, or 1992, or 1987. Portuguesa and Flamengo fielded inelegible players, and the tournament rules state that they should lose 4 points. Are you saying that the rules shouldn't apply here? Why? And Schmidt is the prosecutor. His job is to scream bloody murder if the punishment he thinks is the correct one is not applied by the court. I'd be worried if it was one of the judges that said that before the trial.
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Dec 11, 2013 22:53
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Wait, how is there wiggle room about a July contract that wasn't made official, but no wiggle room for a decision that was taken at 9 pm on Friday, only published on Monday, and used to relegate Portuguesa? Not to mention that now that it is imminent that Fluminense will be able to avoid playing the second division again (3rd time it avoids the second division through extra-field means), people are finding other examples of players being punished on friday night and playing on sunday, only serving the suspension the next week (last one they've found was Bruno, a second division player). But I am sure that it is just a huge coincidence that for the 3rd time! in 17 years Fluminense will avoid having to play in the second division due to legal issues. I wish I had that kind of luck.
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Dec 11, 2013 23:45
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About the wiggle room. The judges accepted Cruzeiro's argument that the contract registry error was a clerical error on part of the minas state federation, and that the player had a legal contract on the date of the match. You see, the guy would be elegible to play, if the federation had not hosed things. Cruzeiro was acquited in this case. There wasn't even the R$ 10,000.00 fine, that was the fine suggested by the president of the court, but the majority decided against it. About the Oeste player, that's called a "Suspensive Effect". It's an appeal, codified in the rules, that allows a player whose ban is being appealed against to play until the result of the appeal trial. I'm surprised you don't know that, because that's quite usual. Bruno, who plays for Oeste, got a red card, sitted out the following game, his trial was on a friday night, and he played the sunday game. How is that possible? Oeste's lawyer filed an appeal agains the ban, and asked for the suspensive effect, making him elegible for the sunday match. Guess what the Portuguesa lawyer failed to do? You obviously has an ax to grind about Fluminense, but you are allowing your hatred to cloud your judgment. Also, you seem to get your information from crazy fan blogs, which are fun to read, but are not the most trustworthy sources of information. And as I said, this mess is not decided at all, the trial is scheduled to next monday, and a possible appeal to the full court would only take place at least 1 week after it, so there's no need to lose your faith, perhaps you shall see Fluminense and Vasco relegated as a christmas present.
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Dec 12, 2013 00:25
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Give me a loving break. Yeah, it is all an axe to grind against fluminense, that lucky team that the three times it was supposed to play in the second division was saved by divine providence. But keep trying to defend the indefensible. As for Christmas present, that would come from Morocco, not Rio.
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Dec 12, 2013 01:53
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The dream is now over. Ponte Preta couldn't beat Lanús away in Argentina, they still have no noteworthy titles, Moisés Lucarelli is still the largest stadium in the world -- over 100 years of history and the team still hasn't managed to do a victory lap. At least Guarani supporters got a chuckle out of the Sul Americana loss. God knows they need something to be happy about. Botafogo are now qualified to the Libertadores after almost two decades, and the state of São Paulo has no teams in the competition. Let's see how they'll fare in the competition.
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Dec 12, 2013 12:32
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http://globoesporte.globo.com/futeb...e-se-salva.html Welp. So...I guess Portuguesa ate the punishment and Fluminense stayed in Série A. Thing is, it's a reasonable decision from the law's standpoint, because they played someone that shouldn't be able to play, but the fact that these type of appeals usually don't work, the situation surrounding the case is a bit shady, AND it being Fluminense, king of avoiding Série B leaves me very upset.
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Dec 16, 2013 22:10
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Football is dead. That, or the 90s are back. Where are the playoffs then?!
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Dec 16, 2013 22:26
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A boring win by the favorites. Seriously, the trial was atrociously boring. A bunch of lawyers taking turns arguing technicalities. But the results are as predicted: unanimous decision against both Portuguesa and Flamengo, they both lose 4 points and get a R$ 1,000.00 fine. Both can still appeal to the sportive justice superior instance, and theoretically they can also appeal to FIFA and/or to the commom judicial courts. As it stands, Fluminense is saved from relegation, Portuguesa was relegated, Flamengo is out of the Sulamericana, and Internacional and Cricuma inherits the Sulamericana Cup spots. Now, where did I put my champagne? Magrov fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Dec 17, 2013 |
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Dec 17, 2013 00:02
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CALLING IT: Lusa will appeal and get the fine revoked.  As for Flamengo, well, it comes with the territory for being the sleaziest team in Brazil. The Sulamiranda spot won't be missed, unless Emelec decides to teach us another exciting lesson about the Ecuadorian utility systems in the Libertadores.
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Dec 17, 2013 01:42
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20matar posted:Great post, very comprehensive. Thanks to you and Magrov for the information. I'm here now, actually in Macapá. I'll be travelling down to Salvador for Carnival and then hopefully still in the country for the world cup... although being English it could also be fun watching England v Uruguay in Montevideo.
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Dec 19, 2013 01:46
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Galo was tooled by Raja Casablanca, and now life goes back to the way it was for the atleticanos. The teams from Minas Gerais just can't get a break in the World Club Cup. I am kicking myself for not having been able to watch the game. It would have been hilarious, although not as much as the dreaded Mazembe Day. CAM's forward Alecsandro played at both games. Speaking about Club Cup veterans, Ronaldinho is once again denied from winning the last major title he is missing...
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Dec 19, 2013 19:18
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Well, that was embarrassing. Thinking back it seems like it was the obvious outcome: Atletico has a bunch of great players with disciplinary or motivation problems (Ronaldinho, Jo, Tardelli) who have basically been playing like they've been on vacation for 5 months. At least with Fluminense out there Atletico is only the butt of about half the jokes people are making. Hopefully the next coach will make the team a little bit more balanced: Atletico this year had by far the best home record in Brazil (and in fact have only lost one meaningless game at home since 2011), coupled with one of the worst in away games. Though I'd be happy if they simply avoid Roth or Autuori. joepinetree fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 22:05
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Ain't no shame in the Rooster's downfall, it happened in the field and it's not even the first time a club from Minas does poorly in the World Club Cup. I am of the belief that not getting it up is only an issue in your life if you gently caress, if you're only a wanker it's no issue at all. Losing at an international competition like that requires making it there in the first place, and Galo are the continental championships, so more power to them. Now only Botafogo and Fluminense are still standing in the line, and even Botafogo won a random CONMEBOL cup back in the 90s when the club was still (briefly) relevant. Speaking about the Libertadores, what about the rumors linking Beckham to Bolivia's Bolivar? That honestly sounds insane and completely baseless, but it would be amazing, if not baffling, if it was actually true. http://www.goal.com/es-ar/news/4749/bolivia/2013/12/19/4491493/en-bol%C3%ADvar-se-habl%C3%B3-de-la-llegada-de-david-beckham-para-la in spanish Also, enjoy your Autuori.
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Dec 21, 2013 00:51
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So here's the latest from the Brazilian league: The sports court upheld the decision to dock Portuguesa 4 points. This result keeps Fluminense in the 1st division. This creates a potentially very messy situation. Since 2010 Brazil adopted the "Fan Statute" as federal law. Part of that federal law claims that decisions made by sports courts need to be officially published or they are null and void. And the decision to suspend Portuguesa's player wasn't published until after the game. In fact,CBF has a website only clubs have access to that contains information about player eligibility and it said nothing about the suspension of the player in question before the game. Portuguesa brought this up to the sports court, and it was dismissed, as they claimed that, since they had not been following that provision for a while, it would open the door to all sorts of challenges to prior decisions and results. But while the sports courts seem to have reached their final decision, Portuguesa could still sue in a regular court of law. And they would be likely to at least get an injunction barring the start of next year's Brazilian championship. So rumors are that CBF will do what it did in 2000, punt on the issue and have a championship with 24 teams and a playoffs next year, keeping all relegated teams up. Lending some credence to these rumors is the fact that vasco (one of the relegated teams) seems to be spending as if they will be playing in the 1st division next year, having already signed Martin Silva, Eduardo Aranda and rumored to be going after a bunch more.
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Dec 30, 2013 09:32
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Hi everyone, since my Liga MX died thread due to the lack of interest and me trying to update every week will it be ok for me to post some Liga MX stuff in this thread since tomorrow is the start of the Clausura season? I mean this is sorta the pan american football/soccer thread here.
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Jan 3, 2014 03:51
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Giovanni_Sinclair posted:Hi everyone, since my Liga MX died thread due to the lack of interest and me trying to update every week will it be ok for me to post some Liga MX stuff in this thread since tomorrow is the start of the Clausura season? I mean this is sorta the pan american football/soccer thread here. Sure, Mexican clubs play in the Libertadores too after all.
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Jan 3, 2014 03:55
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El Hefe posted:Sure, Mexican clubs play in the Libertadores too after all. Cool alright here I go Tomorrow is the start of the 2014 Clausura in Liga MX, last time Leon soundly defeated Club América to win the 2012 Apertura. Here's a list of the opening weekend games which can be seen in the US on Univision, Univision Deportes,Unimas, Azteca America, ESPN Deportes, Telemundo in spainish and some select games in english on the ESPN networks. In Mexico it's on Televisa, TV Azteca, Fox Sports, ESPN Dos and in Canada it airs on Telelatino and Fox Sports World. For those outside North America Liga MX can be seen on ESPN Latin America, Fox Sports LatinoAmérica and Televisa Deportes Network FRIDAY, JANUARY 3, 2014 8:30 ET Morelia v Queretaro 10:30 ET Santos v Guadalajara SATURDAY, JANUARY 4, 2014 6:00 ET America v U.A.N.L 8:00 ET Monterrey v Cruz Azul 8:00 ET Pachuca v Toluca 10:00 ET Atlas v Tijuana 10:00 ET Chiapas v Veracruz SUNDAY, JANUARY 5, 2014 1:00 ET UNAM v Puebla 6:00 ET Atlante v León
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Jan 3, 2014 04:39
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I give Cesar Farias 6 months before Tijuana fires him.
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Jan 3, 2014 04:56
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Farias isn't Venezuela's coach anymore? I think I can stop hating Venezuela now.
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Jan 3, 2014 05:55
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lol that super saiyan guy failed to win the league, is he going to stay with the national team for the WC?
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Jan 3, 2014 07:49
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Drogadon posted:lol that super saiyan guy failed to win the league, is he going to stay with the national team for the WC? Yep, he is. He had a pretty awesome meltdown after America lost in the final.
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Jan 3, 2014 13:55
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Drogadon posted:lol that super saiyan guy failed to win the league, is he going to stay with the national team for the WC? I think he is, I do wonder how he's going to do with the national team that isn't full of Club America guys.
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Jan 3, 2014 18:28
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In Peruvian football news, Universitario (my team, hell yeah) won the league with a team that averages 24 years of age. Let's hope that some of those youngins can become decent players and don't descend into the depths of alcohol and whoremongering like every other Peruvian player ever.
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Jan 3, 2014 22:06
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Weaponized Cum posted:In Peruvian football news, Universitario (my team, hell yeah) won the league with a team that averages 24 years of age. Let's hope that some of those youngins can become decent players and don't descend into the depths of alcohol and whoremongering like every other Peruvian player ever. There need to be some deaths, ecuadorian players didn't stop fooling around until 4 or 5 dudes died from drunk driving.
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Jan 3, 2014 22:32
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Plenty of promising careers have died because of lack of professionalism, does that count?
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Jan 3, 2014 22:35
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A couple weeks ago Alajuelense won the league here, and this happened on live TV https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWa-8bqGzMk The Alajuelense players singing: "es para vos, es para vos, morado puto la puta que te pario" while the interviewer didn't know what to do, it was hilarious. Morado references Saprissa, Alajuelenses arch rivals who haven twon anything in years and are horrible oval office scum.
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Jan 3, 2014 23:53
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Drogadon posted:A couple weeks ago Alajuelense won the league here, and this happened on live TV You really hate Saprissa. In other news, Paraguayan club Olimpia are in hot water after they suspended Sebastián Ariosa's contract because he has cancer. A really lovely move, but it's not like they are paying their healthy players either. Olimpia are broke as gently caress.
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Jan 4, 2014 20:55
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Here's the results and the table after the first round of Liga MX. FRIDAY, JANUARY 3, 2014 Morelia 0-1 Queretaro Santos 1-1 Guadalajara SATURDAY, JANUARY 4, 2014 America 3-0 U.A.N.L Monterrey 0-0 Cruz Azul Pachuca 0-1 Toluca Atlas 0-0 Tijuana Chiapas 1-1 Veracruz SUNDAY, JANUARY 5, 2014 UNAM 2-2 Puebla Atlante 1-1 León  EDIT:missed the 1000 post by one post. Giovanni_Sinclair fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Jan 9, 2014 |
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Jan 9, 2014 02:37
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