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Haha holy poo poo this is really Bladerunner vs WoK. Ah Internet, where would I explore my nerdiest bullshit if not for you  Soundtrack - Being music you can claim this is subjective to a degree, but I really can't think how Bladerunner loses here. I love the WoK soundtrack, it's the space epicness that gives me goosebumps and if you've ever done the marathon of watching Space Seed, even the remastered ToS version and then kicked your home theater into full WoK-mode (dark and LOUD) you really do poo poo yourself with nerd glee. But it's the same kind of cinematic orchestra you'll hear in the original Superman movies, or have you ever watched A New Hope and noticed the score goes right the way through.. never stopping and specific music for each type of scene? It's brilliant but Vangelis from Bladerunner is unique. Not just the title theme, and if you're a fan of dystopian sci-fi particularly.. Play this. Right now. I defy you not to descend into a steamy, dark and cruel modern world. A complex world, not just one of spaceships and laser beams, but of people and feelings.. it makes Trek sound childish. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9KAqhbIZ7o Plot - WoK is great and all, again if you watch Space Seed before and do the whole 'oh Botany Bay! holy poo poo!' it's even better. But don't you think it's really eventually the revenge/space-chase story? I love the way Trek makes spaceships and crews so naval so you've got a guy sitting in the captains chair yelling poo poo while poo poo explodes around him and people die at his command. Yeah that's basically some of the best sci-fi there is (IMO) and you combine in classic war themes like the first officer dying for his comrades and the Captain swearing revenge after the bad man killed his son. Top poo poo, but it's not really that unique, is it? I watched Sink the Bismark! not long ago, one of my favourites and you can see a lot of the same stuff from 1960 in black and white. However if you read Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep which really takes the whole Bladerunner story to another level (there is just a lot more going on in that book than they could fit into the movie, like that Mercer guy and the weird worship machine with the handles) you then watch Bladerunner and are amazed at how it's different, and somehow at least as good. Roy Batty's character, in fact all the replicants are such complex characters.. perfect yet also perfectly flawed. Spock dying through the glass with Jim is emotional, sure, but did that really move you and make you think like Roy's 'tears in rain'? I guess that's script too, but WoK's script is good, I'm more talking about plot and how Bladerunner is 'meatier', or seems that way to me. I'm going to bed, I await eagerly the continuance of the most important of worldly matters! lizardman posted:You know, it gets overlooked because it happens so early on in the movie series, but The Wrath of Khan is actually a postmodern deconstruction of the TV show, or the Captain Kirk character as portrayed from that show. The concept boils down to: what happens when that daring, brash, can-do-no-wrong, young hero turns 50? What happens when he can't just hop on his ship and fly off at the end of an episode anymore? What happens when the lover and son he abandoned come back? What happens when an enemy he thought he could just dump on a planet and never look back returns with a vengeance? What happens when he actually has to face the consequences of his actions? Mm, this is good poo poo too. I guess that's why I remember and am talking about good movies as opposed to the movie this thread was made for. Tony Montana fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 21:10
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I JUST realised the scene where Spock wails on Khan is a direct parallel with, and might actually be shot in the same way as, the scene in the first one where he steamrolls one of the kids who taunted him. Pretty neat, it suits the emotional aspect of Spock well. Looking back I don't think I'm giving Into Darkness as much of the credit as it deserves. I really ought to rewatch it, but it comes off to me now as a pretty fun ride, and that's all it needed to be. One question I've always wanted to ask about Vulcans that could do with clearing up for me: How are vulcans both a rational, logical race and yet clearly not at all like that in any way? The show and reboot movies show that they have cultural rituals, racism, emotions like love, and the ability to meld minds with other beings, which seems like the sort of arty fantasy stuff the more nature-y or magical beings in fantasy can normally do rather than the masters of logic and reason. Not trying to criticise the characterization of vulcans, just wondering what you guys' take is. It's always sort of stuck out to me as them just sort of calling themselves rational as some sort of ridiculous point of pride rather than it being necessarily true, if that makes any sense? Like, the sort of thing a lot of idiot atheists do in real life.
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Nov 10, 2013 01:01
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Hbomberguy posted:One question I've always wanted to ask about Vulcans that could do with clearing up for me: How are vulcans both a rational, logical race and yet clearly not at all like that in any way? The show and reboot movies show that they have cultural rituals, racism, emotions like love, and the ability to meld minds with other beings, which seems like the sort of arty fantasy stuff the more nature-y or magical beings in fantasy can normally do rather than the masters of logic and reason. Not trying to criticise the characterization of vulcans, just wondering what you guys' take is. It's always sort of stuck out to me as them just sort of calling themselves rational as some sort of ridiculous point of pride rather than it being necessarily true, if that makes any sense? Like, the sort of thing a lot of idiot atheists do in real life. Well no beings could be motivated by pure reason, why would they do anything ever? In the shows they say that vulcans are actually more emotional than humans, they just keep their emotions under control. Without that enforced self-discipline they would be totally wild and self-destructive.
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Nov 10, 2013 01:14
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I think the idea is, they have emotions, but they're trained not to show them or act on them. But it's kinda like being in a strict religious denomination, nobody's 100% about it. Sarek marries Amanda because he loves her, then justifies it to others saying it's "the logical thing to do."
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Nov 10, 2013 04:37
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They pretty much have to have controlled emotions rather than no emotions at all, considering A. the Kolinahr thing in the original movie was supposed to be a complete purging of emotions, which they wouldn't have if they were default emotionless, and B. I've heard at least with humans who suffer brain damage that affects their ability to have emotions, the end result is they become indecisive as hell. If you literally can't feel a preference for an option, how can you decide what option to take? Emotions of some sort might be required for sapience really, at least as we define it.
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Nov 10, 2013 11:32
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They allow themselves to indulge their emotions to a limited degree when they deem it logical to do so. Basically, don't let your feelings out when you're not on personal time.
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Nov 10, 2013 11:35
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MikeJF posted:They allow themselves to indulge their emotions to a limited degree when they deem it logical to do so. It feels like there's a cultural/national stereotype this would apply to, but I'm drawing a blank.
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Nov 10, 2013 15:29
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Is there a chance Curzon Dax can make an appearence in the next mpvie, or any of them? Of all the already established characters in the series, he's easily the one that'll have the smoothest transition to the new series. Plus, I'm sure the interactions between him and Kirk would just be 
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Dec 13, 2013 19:46
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MizPiz posted:Is there a chance Curzon Dax can make an appearence in the next mpvie, or any of them? Of all the already established characters in the series, he's easily the one that'll have the smoothest transition to the new series. Plus, I'm sure the interactions between him and Kirk would just be That would be cool. The Trill offer an interesting storytelling possibility, though in my opinion one that is best played out over a series of episodes rather than a single film.
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Dec 13, 2013 20:18
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I'm hoping there's more Tribbles, with Sisko and Dax running around in the background. That would be a neat reference. No need to draw attention to it, just a little thing somewhere in there. I still think they should have kept Kirk dead at the end. I know, no Kirk in Star Trek, I'm crazy, but still.
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Dec 13, 2013 21:21
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The Dax running around during TOS was Emony. She met McCoy.
MikeJF fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Dec 14, 2013 |
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Dec 14, 2013 08:48
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MikeJF posted:The Dax running around during TOS was Emony. She met McCoy. Hm, yes, you're right. She did...meet him. Curzon didn't meet Koloth until Koloth was much older, which is why (Jadzia) Dax was really excited in Trials and Tribble-ations about getting to see Koloth in his prime.
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Dec 14, 2013 21:26
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Hbomberguy posted:I JUST realised the scene where Spock wails on Khan is a direct parallel with, and might actually be shot in the same way as, the scene in the first one where he steamrolls one of the kids who taunted him. Pretty neat, it suits the emotional aspect of Spock well. Looking back I don't think I'm giving Into Darkness as much of the credit as it deserves. I really ought to rewatch it, but it comes off to me now as a pretty fun ride, and that's all it needed to be. There are dozens of movies every year that are just a 'fun ride', would it really have been so much to ask for a script that wasn't incredibly stupid? I mean the cast and director were both pretty good and nobody is expecting a really slow moving boring movie like Star Trek 1 but Into Darkness just had such an awful script and boring, repetitive story where the emotional arcs of the last movie were basically just recycled. The first movie was a 'fun ride' that didn't make a lot of sense but which set up the characters and universe well enough and put things in place for the next movie. This movie completely dropped the ball. It was sad to watch all that talent and energy being wasted on a movie that had about as much thought put into its script as a Theme Park ride.
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Dec 15, 2013 00:48
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Helsing posted:There are dozens of movies every year that are just a 'fun ride', would it really have been so much to ask for a script that wasn't incredibly stupid? Counterpoint: The script wasn't stupid at all. In my opinion, most of the 'problems' with the script seemed to stem from people not paying attention to the movie or just not liking the story choices made. Sure, the movie wasn't perfect, and you could nitpick some stuff (gravity well of doom), but I thought the main plot was suspenseful and really well done.
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Dec 15, 2013 01:20
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On the Vulcan thing, wasn't it explained somewhere that Vulcans are actually super emotional and it led to all kinds of conflict and war? They split into two camps, Vulcans who decided that emotion must be kept under check and developed a society based around that, and Romulans who don't limit themselves in such a way. I dunno, I thought I remember that from back somewhere.
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Dec 15, 2013 19:05
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Hbomberguy posted:I'm hoping there's more Tribbles, with Sisko and Dax running around in the background. That would be a neat reference. No need to draw attention to it, just a little thing somewhere in there. I think I'd actually like that even more. Just have Avery Brooks and Terry Ferrel acting all awkward and anxious in the back of a couple scenes, maybe give them a couple lines. Yeah, I want this, actually. NarkyBark posted:On the Vulcan thing, wasn't it explained somewhere that Vulcans are actually super emotional and it led to all kinds of conflict and war? They split into two camps, Vulcans who decided that emotion must be kept under check and developed a society based around that, and Romulans who don't limit themselves in such a way. I dunno, I thought I remember that from back somewhere. Pretty much. Vulcans want to be the purely logical beings they make themselves out to be (and for the most part they are) but they still have innumerable years of evolution and the unpredictability of the other species to gently caress it up.
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Dec 15, 2013 20:20
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So I just watched Into the Darkness and wow. This movie was actually pretty drat great! I was so disappointed with HobbitSmaug, but thankfully I picked this one next and it showed that good writing, well acted and fun characters, and sharp direction can actually be found in some big popcorn movies. I liked the first movie with some reservations, but now that they were actually done with all the character intros and jumped straight into Round Spaceships a meaty plot with a great villain, it worked even better. A very impressive effort.
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Dec 18, 2013 00:02
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MikeJF posted:The Dax running around during TOS was Emony. She met McCoy. This made me look up the character on Memory Alpha (since I'm still making my way through DS9), which then talked about a story set when McCoy was young enough that he hadn't yet entered medical school and the incestuous, masturbatory nature of all of this fan-wank bullshit hurt my brain. Lesson: Don't go to Memory Alpha.
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Dec 18, 2013 19:11
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pigdog posted:So I just watched Into the Darkness and wow. This movie was actually pretty drat great! I was so disappointed with HobbitSmaug, but thankfully I picked this one next and it showed that good writing, well acted and fun characters, and sharp direction can actually be found in some big popcorn movies. I liked the first movie with some reservations, but now that they were actually done with all the character intros and jumped straight into Round Spaceships a meaty plot with a great villain, it worked even better. A very impressive effort. This reads like a bought review. I enjoyed it but I wouldn't call the plot "meaty". Convoluted and willing to contradict itself to keep moving at a fast pace yes. Meaty no.
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Dec 18, 2013 19:40
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Geekboy posted:This made me look up the character on Memory Alpha (since I'm still making my way through DS9), which then talked about a story set when McCoy was young enough that he hadn't yet entered medical school and the incestuous, masturbatory nature of all of this fan-wank bullshit hurt my brain. Memory Alpha has no fan wank, all the information comes directly from the TV shows and movies. No information from books or video games is allowed.
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Dec 18, 2013 22:08
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Corek posted:Memory Alpha has no fan wank, all the information comes directly from the TV shows and movies. No information from books or video games is allowed. Then what's this poo poo?
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Dec 18, 2013 22:27
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lmao the parasites in Conspiracy were known in Pike's time but because *reasons* Pike helps Dax cover it up. Cool story bro.
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Dec 18, 2013 22:36
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That's a "real world" article, written about the novel itself (being a licensed work) rather than an article about the characters and events within the book. Articles about board games (see this for example) and production materials exist too, but Memory Alpha doesn't include any information from these sources in their "in-universe" articles. Memory Beta and Memory Gamma on the other hand...
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Dec 18, 2013 23:34
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Well, I suppose the information here is listed as coming from an outside source:quote:In the Lives of Dax short story Old Souls, McCoy's roommate, whose people have a long-standing feud with the Trill, attempts to kill Emony at the gymnastics competition, but another Trill steps in and takes the blow instead - McCoy is able to save his life, and the satisfaction he receives from doing so is the catalyst for his decision to become a doctor. 
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Dec 19, 2013 00:42
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This is why the Transformers Wiki is the best, because there are literally dozens of intersecting continuities, so canon nerds can't thrive there. Instead of textual supremacy like on Wookieepedia, it takes on a more questioning tone to the Transformers franchise.
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Dec 19, 2013 01:14
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Regarde Aduck posted:This reads like a bought review. I've noticed plenty of people hate this one, and as I understand it's because they're offended with all the liberties they've taken with the original Star Trek universe, but as I really couldn't care less about that, I really enjoyed this one.
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Dec 19, 2013 11:12
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Corek posted:This is why the Transformers Wiki is the best, because there are literally dozens of intersecting continuities, so canon nerds can't thrive there. Instead of textual supremacy like on Wookieepedia, it takes on a more questioning tone to the Transformers franchise.
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Dec 19, 2013 13:03
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pigdog posted:You'll notice the plot holes after the credits roll, but not while the movie is rolling, because it's moving at such a breakneck pace. I'm sure the first Star Wars movies had plenty of plot holes, too, and I'd really liken this one to them.
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Dec 19, 2013 17:31
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pigdog posted:I've noticed plenty of people hate this one, and as I understand it's because they're offended with all the liberties they've taken with the original Star Trek universe, but as I really couldn't care less about that, I really enjoyed this one. I'm not saying that wasn't an issue for some people, but there's plenty who just didn't like it as a movie, its relationship to existing Star Trek aside.
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Dec 19, 2013 17:44
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I enjoyed it the first time I watched it, but it is a pretty painful movie for me to get through on repeat viewings.
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Dec 19, 2013 18:09
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Cardboard Box A posted:To Sell Toys is still the best article on any fan wiki
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Dec 19, 2013 19:13
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MikeJF posted:They allow themselves to indulge their emotions to a limited degree when they deem it logical to do so. Vulcans are an entire race of airline pilots.
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Dec 21, 2013 14:05
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Senor Tron posted:Vulcans are an entire race of airline pilots. Quick, someone better than me Photoshop the Flight poster ASAP.
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Dec 21, 2013 16:06
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Strange Matter posted:Hahaha thank you for linking to that, that article is fantastic if only for the picture comments. Is the entire TFWiki that sarcastic? Yes, and it's all the better for it. Unlike Wookiepedia where Everything Must Make Sense, there are points when the TFWiki just goes 'gently caress it, this is horrible and weird'.
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Dec 22, 2013 03:54
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I just watched the movie while flying over the Atlantic Ocean so maybe it's a detail that I missed, but... why didn't the Klingons declare war on Earth after Khan, Kirk et al slaughtered an entire squadron of them on their home planet? Also, doesn't radiation gently caress up your DNA? How is a blood transfusion supposed to cure it? (I understand it's sci-fi and all, but I'd expect the writers to at least try to stay true to science 101.)
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Dec 22, 2013 17:17
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enraged_camel posted:I just watched the movie while flying over the Atlantic Ocean so maybe it's a detail that I missed, but... why didn't the Klingons declare war on Earth after Khan, Kirk et al slaughtered an entire squadron of them on their home planet? All Klingon HQ knows is that there was a squadron slaughtered in the middle of nowhere; no idea who did it or why. (also, on the Federation, not Earth) quote:Also, doesn't radiation gently caress up your DNA? How is a blood transfusion supposed to cure it? Yeah, super-acute radiation poisoning basically tears your cells apart. I guess the magic blood something something and then something space magic.
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Dec 22, 2013 17:24
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enraged_camel posted:I just watched the movie while flying over the Atlantic Ocean so maybe it's a detail that I missed, but... why didn't the Klingons declare war on Earth after Khan, Kirk et al slaughtered an entire squadron of them on their home planet? The Klingons have alot of other enemies too. They hate the Romulans (I know the Klingon-Romulan war doesn't actually occur until much later but whatever the timeline's out the window anyways) and of course don't forget the tribbles. One thing that urked alot of people off was the warp travel from Kronos to Earth. It seemed to be a 20 minute trip at most.
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Dec 22, 2013 21:19
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DFu4ever posted:Counterpoint: The script wasn't stupid at all. Some random script highlights: --magical space blood that can apparently cure any organism (its a good thing the doctors randomly decided to inject a tribble they had lying around with this dude's blood so that they could conveniently discover this highly convenient plot point) --hand held space cell phones that are capable of instantaneous faster than light communication --Somebody sneaking their space shuttle into the cargo bay of a top secret military starship. And then you don't hear anything from him again until you find out he magically infiltrated and took control of the Star Ship's engineering bay. --200 Year Old man who for some reason can build vastly better spaceships than contemporary scientists --Villain's plot involves storing people in missiles --Character arcs have the exact same emotional beats as the previous film. Spock must learn to trust his emotions... again... Kirk must learn to control his anger, be mature and get over the death of his father figure... again... Ahura exists purely to be worried about Spock... again --Political tensions alluded to with Klingons and then just kind of dropped as the script moves on even though the actions of the main characters clearly should have triggered a war. The script writers have such contempt for their audience I don't even think they bothered to throw in a line explaining why slaughtering Klingon's on their home planet didn't start a war... if they did "explain" it and I missed it, then they still just hand waved it away in a single line. --Massively fails the Bechdel test --Now the third or fourth Star Trek franchise movie in a row that is just about angry space man getting revenge. That poo poo is getting dull. It was a horribly written movie. Each event that happens only does so to propel you toward the next action scene. It was basically Mission Impossible in space with absolutely no attempt made to craft an interesting or intelligent story. They desperately need new script writers for this franchise. The director and actors are fine and the special effects are great but the storyline and the characterizations were just abysmal.
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Dec 22, 2013 22:04
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Helsing posted:--hand held space cell phones that are capable of instantaneous faster than light communication Is this much more implausible than FTL communication, period? (Which would come into play whenever Kirk or whoever got a message from Starfleet?)
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Dec 23, 2013 00:04
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Communicators have always been FTL-capable over limited ranges, though.
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Dec 23, 2013 00:08
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