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Going to use this exploit in a game against my co-worker, who only plays casually, so that the he thinks I am a Civ god.
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Jan 2, 2014 07:10
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I'm kind of impressed that it took someone this long to figure that exploit out considering it was supposed to be there since the game's release.
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Jan 2, 2014 07:38
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It was discovered and reported 18 months ago, after G&K's release. I don't remember, was the tech diffusion a feature prior to G&K? And back then, it was an exploit but it wasn't a big one. Now that Scholars in Residence is a thing, it amplified the effect of the exploit quite a bit.
Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Jan 2, 2014 |
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Jan 2, 2014 07:57
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Zettace posted:I'm kind of impressed that it took someone this long to figure that exploit out considering it was supposed to be there since the game's release. I’d heard that “strange things happen when you pop multiple Great Scientists on the same turn”. Apparently strange beneficial things happen.
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Jan 2, 2014 08:49
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Zettace posted:I'm kind of impressed that it took someone this long to figure that exploit out considering it was supposed to be there since the game's release. They didn't have tech overflow for quite a while after the game's release.
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Jan 2, 2014 09:25
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Playing till World Congress without Sailing seems like it would be incredibly gimmicky and difficult, but I'm also a scrub who plays on King soooooo
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Jan 2, 2014 10:00
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That's right, there was no research overflow on release. So this meant adding more beakers to your science rate meant absolutely nothing unless you hit appropriate breakpoints, and it incentivised micromanaging your scientist specialists so that you'd just barely complete a tech. Which is funny because culture --> social policies always had overflow. So thank god they added research (and production overflow). Except in both cases, multipliers stacked on into consecutive items in the queue. In Civ4, if you had a multiplier on your science or production, your overflow hammers or beakers would be divided by the multiplier of that item. In both Civ4 and Civ5, there was a no cap on research overflow, and a cap on production overflow. This should be the case, if you lack the former, it means deep tech beelines that ignore cheap techs would be grossly inefficient, and that's no fun not having the choice of deep beelines. You need the latter, else you can stack up a ton of overflow and basically pull off Alpha Centauri style 1-turn wonders the moment you complete a tech. Civ5 raised the overflow cap, which is necessary because you have fewer cities with potentially much higher production:item ratios, compared to Civ4 style cities which were smaller but more numerous. So fair enough. The fatal problem is that you have no overflow cap plus no counter-multipliers. So if your scientist bulbs 1000 beakers into a cheap tech, all the overflow gets something like a 25% boost, and then the overflow from the next tech gets a 25% boost, and so on as the exponential growth completely outstrips the cost of the previous item. So all you need to do to fix this is to divide overflow beakers by the previous item's multiplier, meaning you wouldn't get any beaker waste (necessary to make the game not frustrating), but still wouldn't cause exponential beaker growth. I think the reason this took so long to get caught is that research multipliers weren't really present until BNW (I'm unsure about G&K). The lack of a production counter-multiplier is less broken, mainly because of the caps on production overflow, but should hopefully get patched out as well because it's essentially an exploit.
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Jan 2, 2014 10:13
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I love little quirks like that. But why does an excess of beakers get a 25% boost on the next tech in the first place? What was the intended purpose of that?
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Jan 2, 2014 15:17
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You natively get a bonus on researching a tech for each other civilization that knows it, partly as a catch-up enabler and partly because of a "well, someone already knows about this, why not just go ask them?" thing. Then there's the Scholars in Residence world congress proposal, which gives an extra 1.2 multiplier on each tech that anybody else already knows.
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Jan 2, 2014 15:46
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The funny part was in how adamant they were about there not being tech overflow reduced micromanagement. What?  How does Firaxis sometimes misunderstand their own game systems so badly?
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Jan 2, 2014 15:55
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:The funny part was in how adamant they were about there not being tech overflow reduced micromanagement. What? It reduced Firaxis programmers’ micromanagement. 
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Jan 2, 2014 17:05
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I've been doing a religious game right now since I began right next to Mt. Fuji, and during the Modern Era I finally noticed that Rationalism can be active at the same time as Piety. (Yes, I know I'm bad at this game) Are there any other small changes BNW introduced?
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Jan 2, 2014 20:45
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KKKlean Energy posted:I love little quirks like that. But why does an excess of beakers get a 25% boost on the next tech in the first place? What was the intended purpose of that? They hosed up reducing tech costs. Instead of actually reducing the tech cost they increased your beakers.
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Jan 2, 2014 22:04
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Andorra posted:I've been doing a religious game right now since I began right next to Mt. Fuji, and during the Modern Era I finally noticed that Rationalism can be active at the same time as Piety. (Yes, I know I'm bad at this game) Are there any other small changes BNW introduced? None of the culture trees cancel out others anymore; the order/autocracy/freedom set became a whole new thing, so you can technically take every social policy in the game now (although you'd be way past the end of the game by that time so I'm not sure why you'd want to).
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Jan 2, 2014 22:56
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The Cheshire Cat posted:None of the culture trees cancel out others anymore; the order/autocracy/freedom set became a whole new thing, so you can technically take every social policy in the game now (although you'd be way past the end of the game by that time so I'm not sure why you'd want to). Or Poland. gently caress, Poland gets so many free policies.
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Jan 2, 2014 23:11
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Two questions. First, what's the best civ for raw growth rate? I'm gonna get into a multiplayer game and wanted to get a civ that allows me to get big fast to keep ahead in science. Secondly, does Civ 4 need all the expansions? I got it for free in the BNW sale mess-up and was thinking of trying it out. e: wow, all the expansions together are more than the base game + all the expansions. StashAugustine fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Jan 3, 2014 |
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Jan 3, 2014 03:37
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The Cheshire Cat posted:None of the culture trees cancel out others anymore; the order/autocracy/freedom set became a whole new thing, so you can technically take every social policy in the game now (although you'd be way past the end of the game by that time so I'm not sure why you'd want to). So I can get a couple good ones out of Freedom and then get some out of Order? Which will it say I am? The one with the most?
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Jan 3, 2014 03:45
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I don't think any civs have a growth rate bonus, but Gandhi makes it a hell of a lot easier to get large population fast without tanking your happiness.Andorra posted:So I can get a couple good ones out of Freedom and then get some out of Order? Which will it say I am? The one with the most? No. Ideologies are different from social policies now. They are exclusive (you can only have one of Freedom/Order/Autocracy), and if a civ with a different ideology from yours has tourism influence over you it will destroy your happiness, forcing you to switch to their ideology and lose whatever tenets you've taken. You should always take Freedom unless you're late to Ideologies and the rest of the world hates Freedom (in which case you've lost the game so you may as well concede and start over). Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Jan 3, 2014 |
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Jan 3, 2014 03:46
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The Aztecs have a unique building (replacement for the water mill) that gives a bonus to population growth. Also, Venice gets double trade routes, which means you can ship like 80 food into your capital without crippling your income. e. Also, the Inca can build farms on any hill, so there's no trade-off between growth and production. Kazzah fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jan 3, 2014 |
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Jan 3, 2014 03:52
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Aztec is incredible for tall growth, unlike most other food multipliers that add a percentage bonus to net food surplus (which is going to be reduced by previous population), Aztec bonus adds a percentage to gross food (which is going to be a much higher number). Gandhi can manage happiness easier, but as long as you expand to spots with decent numbers of luxuries, and manage your global and city-state diplomacy well, you should be able to manage. Shoshone are also pretty good for fast growth, mainly because grabbing more tiles when you settle translates into more good tiles worked early in a city's life.
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Jan 3, 2014 04:03
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Yeah, I have literally never had an issue with happiness outside warmongering except for slowing when I get my first few cities up, which isn't helped by Gandhi at all. e: so, I'm trying out early warmongering as China, and I just conquered a non-costal city on the other side of the continent (it's a capital, so I can't raze it.) Is building a road at all worth it? StashAugustine fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Jan 3, 2014 |
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Jan 3, 2014 05:01
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Monetarily? The formula is something like (city pop)*1.1 + (capital pop)/6 - 1. Basically you want about a citizen per tile in the city you're routing to, at 12 capital pop it gets down to a citizen every two tiles. Strategically it may be worth maintaining a road for other reasons, like getting units there to defend it.
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Jan 3, 2014 05:25
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StashAugustine posted:Two questions. First, what's the best civ for raw growth rate? I'm gonna get into a multiplayer game and wanted to get a civ that allows me to get big fast to keep ahead in science. Secondly, does Civ 4 need all the expansions? I got it for free in the BNW sale mess-up and was thinking of trying it out. Question 1: Incans if you can get a good Terrace Farm/Petra combo. But it's very terrain dependent. Second best food civ is the Dutch if you can go Polder crazy on some flood plains. Third best is... Siam, if you can get lots of maritime city states on your side, maybe? After that, no one else has a particularly strong food bonus. edit: Oh, hah, and the below post reminded me of Venice. Abuse your double trade routes and coastal start bias in order to send as much food around as possible. All of these are situational though. Inca is perhaps the most reliable, they always start by lots of hills but not always by a sufficient mountain range. Netherlands rarely start by flood plains. Marshes are more common for their start bias but provide less food. Siam requires lots of maritime city states and to be honest, they're still not as good as the other types. Venice requires coastal city states in range you can take over. Question 2: Yes, Civ 4 needs the expansions. Improved espionage, unique buildings, improved diplomacy, corporations, and more were added in the expansions. They're important features. Unfortunately, the bonus copy of Civ 4 you got is kind of useless. Not sure why they did that, it's not like Civ 4 Complete had much value either, considering how often it's been $5 or so. The plus side is that you only need Beyond the Sword, it contains all of the features and extra civs from Warlords, it's only missing the scenarios. On a related note, there are some pretty cool scenarios in BTS as well, and all of the best user mods require BTS. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Jan 3, 2014 |
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Jan 3, 2014 07:45
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How dumb would it be to go for Order as Venice? Iron Curtain’s 50% increased yield of internal trade routes is pretty tempting. Then again, halved food consumption/unhappiness from specialists is just so good in Venice and all of its merchant‐heavy puppets.
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Jan 3, 2014 07:58
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50% increased yield is a maximum of +5(? I think I've only seen +10 from sea routes) in Food/Production per route. In late game there's a potential of 6/8 specialists. And even if the puppet goes for the gold specialists only(And I swear I've seen it fill Science slots, so that's uncertain), that's still +3 food and happy. There's also the question of whether that 50% is to the base value or the maximum; Sea route is a x2 multiplier, after all. Although I'm probably talking bull-my memory is terrible even though I played Venice a few days ago.
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Jan 3, 2014 09:16
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City states you puppet count the same as regular cities with respect to increased science and culture cost, right? So Venice wants to buy three to have a four stack like every other civ? Would it make sense to go that culture route that gives bonuses to city states since you won't be eating them all? Or do you eat them all and have a huge awkward impossible to defend without purchasing your entire army world-spanning octopus nation? Getting to certain eras gives you a merchant of venice but besides that you have to +great people generation in gold producing cities to get more, yes? If venice got a good religion going and wanted to take over that way buying every city state would be a good thing? I guess I'm just asking what the sensible strategy for Venice would be.
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Jan 3, 2014 09:37
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Krinkle posted:City states you puppet count the same as regular cities with respect to increased science and culture cost, right? So Venice wants to buy three to have a four stack like every other civ? Puppets increase science cost, but not culture cost. I play Venice wider than I play most civs. More puppets means more culture, gold, and faith. If you can handle the happiness, the only downside is tech cost, but a city has to have truly abysmal science production to not pay for itself and then some. Remember that puppeting cities with a Merchant of Venice leaves all their buildings intact. I’d say you need a minimum of three puppets to feed Venice and more would not remiss. I don’t usually have to worry much about defending the puppets since I can rush units everywhere, I have so many city‐states allied, and other civs are reluctant to declare war and break all the trade routes they have with me. The most important factor may be that I usually play Venice on water maps, where the AI is worse at combat and less likely to be aggressive in the first place. Having more gross gold production than everyone else means a lot more gold to spend. If the average civ pays 50% of its gold in maintenance costs and Venice makes 50% more gross gold with the same costs, Venice accrues twice as much gold per turn. Krinkle posted:Would it make sense to go that culture route that gives bonuses to city states since you won't be eating them all? Patronage synergises well, yes. City‐states are usually the best thing to spend gold on, and Venice has a lot of it. The catch is that Venice also synergises well with Commerce and Exploration, and as always Rationalism and ideologies are a high priority. I usually open Aesthetics because the great people generation boost is really nice. Pop all of the artists (preferably after taking Universal Suffrage) for a never‐ending gold age. It’s worth having to build more archæologists, but I recommend stealing archæologists. The AI builds so many of them. Krinkle posted:Getting to certain eras gives you a merchant of venice but besides that you have to +great people generation in gold producing cities to get more, yes? If venice got a good religion going and wanted to take over that way buying every city state would be a good thing? You never get a free merchant in new eras. You get one at Optics, and that’s it. You have to generate the rest manually, but it’s not a huge deal because you get the gold specialist slots early than any of the others and your puppets prioritise building markets and banks and filling their slots. You’ll certainly have more merchants than you need in the late game. In the early game, you’ll probably want to produce one or two in Venice with the help of the National Epic. Getting a religion as Venice is a good idea because religion is just as powerful in a puppet empire as it is in a normal one. It can be difficult to pull off, though, because the race to religion is an early‐game thing and Venice starts weak. Hope for a good faith‐generating pantheon. The good news is that once your religion is established you can do a lot of free spreading with Venice’s trade routes. It should go without saying that building your Grand Temple is a top priority.
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Jan 3, 2014 10:12
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Can someone explain this; Spain just used a Catholic Great Prophet. I had used the prophet/inquisitor combo on Madrid ~100 turns ago leaving Catholicism with only 2 followers in a citystate. It would seem that she just spawned this from nowhere. twoot fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Jan 3, 2014 |
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Jan 3, 2014 16:39
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I believe a great prophet always spawns with your religion, regardless of whether or not you have any cities worshipping it. Basically the only way to completely remove a religion from the game is to eliminate the player as well as the religion from all cities.
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Jan 3, 2014 16:42
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For future reference, keep an inquisitor in your border cities. Especially if they’re holy cities you’ve stolen from other civs. 
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Jan 3, 2014 17:03
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What do you mean by that? Just have the inquisitor asleep in the city? It sounds like that's what you mean but it hasn't really done anything, in my experience, and if you mean "to spend when things get out of hand" then why do people keep saying to keep them around and not keep them around to spend when necessary? I feel like I'm missing something and I keep checking the explore-automated tab to see if there's a "do your loving job" option there I keep missing.
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Jan 3, 2014 17:11
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Krinkle posted:What do you mean by that? Just have the inquisitor asleep in the city? If you have an inquisitor in your city the AI won’t send prophets or missionaries to it. I don’t know if it outright blocks conversion or if the AI just doesn’t bother when you’re prepared to reverse their work.
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Jan 3, 2014 17:14
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:On a related note, there are some pretty cool scenarios in BTS as well, and all of the best user mods require BTS. Damned right; I've never played a game as much as I've played Beyond the Sword (445 hours), and I'm confident in saying that 400 of those hours was spent playing its Fall From Heaven 2 mod. It's seriously that good.
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Jan 3, 2014 17:16
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Platystemon posted:If you have an inquisitor in your city the AI won’t send prophets or missionaries to it. I don’t know if it outright blocks conversion or if the AI just doesn’t bother when you’re prepared to reverse their work. Plus, like all faith units, they get more expensive as time goes on, so you're better off getting them fairly early and then you won't need to buy any more.
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Jan 3, 2014 17:17
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Having an Inquisitor stationed in a city outright blocks conversion, I'm pretty sure.
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Jan 3, 2014 17:55
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Eric the Mauve posted:Having an Inquisitor stationed in a city outright blocks conversion, I'm pretty sure. It does, and I believe but I'm not 100% positive that you can actually just have them in one of the hexes around your city so you don't have to do micro managing movement whenever a Great Person spawns or something.
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Jan 3, 2014 17:59
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I've been trying to make the transition to emperor difficulty, and was doing really well for a while in a game I played yesterday. I was playing Korea and was out-teching and out tourism/culture'ing everyone until around the modern age. I got the first ideology and went freedom, but like within the next 10-15 turns 8 out of the 9 other civs in the game all went order, and then promptly all declared war on me at the same time. Then I lost  .edit: I even had a decent sized military that should have been able to hold off a couple civs at once, but not 8 
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Jan 3, 2014 18:02
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If they all went Order then there's a good chance someone had enough cultural influence over them that any other choice would have made them unhappy (or less happy: the AI has a huge aversion to even a reduction in positive happiness because it's not smart enough to project how much happiness it is likely to need). This is why if you want to -pick- your ideology you need to have enough skin in the culture game.
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Jan 3, 2014 18:38
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Are there any mods that are similar to Fall From Heaven yet? Also, is there a guide anywhere for playing as different countries or just a guide in general to help be better at the game?
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Jan 3, 2014 18:40
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Putin It In Mah rear end posted:If they all went Order then there's a good chance someone had enough cultural influence over them that any other choice would have made them unhappy (or less happy: the AI has a huge aversion to even a reduction in positive happiness because it's not smart enough to project how much happiness it is likely to need). The AI follows a set pattern of decisions as to why it goes order. It prioritizes tenets that have not been chosen, and Order is usually available. Additionally Order has bonuses that help wide empires, and the AI is usually playing wider than the player because of how it founds cities and the bonuses it gets. The end result is that its choices tend to have some overlap. In many games it's not unusual to see 70% of the AI civs go Order, with a few Autocracy and some very rare Freedom civs, like Ethiopea. Being the cultural leader does not necessarily help, much of the time on Emperor+ you may just want to go with Order or delay your ideology until the biggest civs have made their choices. As illustrated in the example that guy gave, ideology rarely matters so much that your victory hinges on it, but you can certainly lose a game that you are winning by making everyone hate you.
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Jan 3, 2014 18:45
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